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First Intel Macs on track for January - Page 5

post #161 of 452
Which future Intel CPUs are dual-processor friendly (besides the Xeon)?

What Intel quad (dual-dualcore) would likely have similar performance as the G5 2.5 GHz quad? I am trying to gauge how long until the MacIntel powermac will take to catch up to the present quad. Any guidance would be appreciated.
post #162 of 452
Xeon is it, and i don't know if they're dual core yet. But i have heard that Opteron > Xeon and PPC970 > Opteron.
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post #163 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by DCQ
"Lastly, does anyone see any possibility or mechanism for Apple wo be able to thwart hackers from making OS X boot on a Dell or any other PC? I have not yet heard of a convincing way to do that."

Neither have I. Which is why I think in, say, three years time, You'll be able to buy an OS X 10.6 box and install it on any retail or hand-built Intel or AMD beige-box.

If it takes up the gauntlet, things will get very interesting. Apple has never been stronger, and MS has never been weaker. Vista is a ways off, its hardware requirements are mindboggling, and average users (in my experience) are really ticked off at the spyware, malware, adware, viruses, worms, and trojan horses that plague their computers.

You make very good points, Mr. DCQ.

I too am afraid of OS-X on any old box out there; Macintosh is not the OS, and it is not the machines... it is the whole seamless shebang, a shebang that could turn very easily into a fizzle if prying fingers are allowed into the mix.

The problem with the dual-booting on the machines (and aren't there viruses that attack intel BIOSes as well?), is that it too can taint the Apple experience. Even if someone installs windows and gets their machine burned by malware; it will definitely take the bloom off the rose... or the sheen off the Apple.

Another quick question: Is intel's hardware DRM going to make it into macs?

Hope springs eternal,

Mandricard
AppleOutsider
Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
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Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
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post #164 of 452
So after reading through this thread it now seems to me that Apple will do their own thing. They haven't made any statements that would preclude this. Sure the new Macs will have some as yet unknown Intel proc in it, but really why would Apple even bother trying to build a box that worked internally like typical Wintel systems? Those system are full of legacy compromises that Apple can ignore. Completely. Some of the stuff the tech folk have discussed here is intriguing. The different cpu's, the busses, the memory controllers, EFI etc.

They can do anything they want to make it work best for their OS. Everybody else is on their own. Yes I know the dev boxes they sent out are standard stuff, but it doesn't have to remain that way.

This is exciting.
post #165 of 452
Hey sunil, I see you moved. Housing situation a problem?
post #166 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
Lastly, does anyone see any possibility or mechanism for Apple wo be able to thwart hackers from making OS X boot on a Dell or any other PC? I have not yet heard of a convincing way to do that.

In short, it seems to me that Apple has to be very, very, careful of the hand they play, and must guard its cards religiously. For it seems to me they will be entering a much larger arena with much larger stakes, and a much larger population of potential enemies.

Or for another metaphor:

Here there be monsters.

Hope springs eternal,

Mandricard
AppleOutsider

Hello people!

How many times have I seen this already?

does anyone read the news?

Apple is patenting a security method for this. Even if you somehow manage to get the OS to run on another machine, you won't be able to run programs on it

It's not in effect on the developers machines yet, but by release it will be ready.
post #167 of 452
I thought Leopard was going to be introduced with Intel Macs... now it's just an upgrade again?
-Shawn
2.4GHz 24" Intel iMac
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post #168 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by iShawn
I thought Leopard was going to be introduced with Intel Macs... now it's just an upgrade again?

We have no idea. We just like to talk.
post #169 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Apple is patenting a security method for this. Even if you somehow manage to get the OS to run on another machine, you won't be able to run programs on it

And if there's enough interest, it wil be cracked in 5 minutes - just like various Microsoft anti-piracy/licencing schemes, MPAA schemes, and most other copy protections, OS licence protections, protections to applications, et al.

You sound like you actually believe that a piece of software will be impossible to crack.
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post #170 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
We have no idea. We just like to talk.

I see, well this sounds good none the least!
-Shawn
2.4GHz 24" Intel iMac
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-Shawn
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post #171 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
And if there's enough interest, it wil be cracked in 5 minutes - just like various Microsoft anti-piracy/licencing schemes, MPAA schemes, and most other copy protections, OS licence protections, protections to applications, et al.

You sound like you actually believe that a piece of software will be impossible to crack.

Yeah, I do believe that the almost required idea that all security will be cracked in five minutes by some pimply kid panting in his room is wishful thinking.

Everyone remembers the few successful cracks, but don't know about or remember the ones that weren't.

DVD security was cracked by that kid Jon.

What's forgotten is that it was only cracked because the manufacturer of the disks forgot to remove the public key from the software before pressing the disks.

It's never been cracked again.

iTunes was cracked when it first came out, fixed, cracked, fixed again, and hasn't been cracked since. There were a couple of bugs. Once they were fixed, that ended it.

It's agreed that the new hi-def disks coming out will be uncrackable, that even if somehow one disk was cracked, it would only work for that release, but that it's unlikely to happen.

Apple's patents contain well understood methods of code substitution as well as other methods combined with a hardware chip. Apple hasn't instituted the patent yet, but it has much weaker security just based on the chip. Developers say that the 10.4.3 release contains much more secure protection than earlier releases, even though it doesn't use Apple's patented methods.

Apple's patent has been looked at by security experts who have said that while it could be possible to get the OS to work on another PC, critical parts of the OS would be missing as they reside in the chip. due to the code substitution methods, which code it would be could be impossible to determine, as it would be different on each copy of the OS.

Therefore, while the OS MIGHT run, getting apps to run on it could be impossible.

Of course we'll see after it comes out, but it does look difficult.

Remember that when security is built-in from the beginning it's much more effective then when it's built on top, later.

XP's security that they recently put in doesn't work well because it's an add-on. Once you're through it, you're done.
post #172 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by iShawn
I thought Leopard was going to be introduced with Intel Macs... now it's just an upgrade again?

Um, Leopard is an upgrade the same way Tiger, Panther and Jaguar were, with the only difference that it'll run on two architectures instead of just one.
post #173 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Hey sunil, I see you moved. Housing situation a problem?

post #174 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Yes, with a virtual PC for intel mac OS X, will run at full speed windows game. Because unlike emulators, there is no need or translating a code to an another. Virtual PC already work on PC : it allow to have several Windows working in the same PC

also vmware for linux and windoze
post #175 of 452
One question I have for all of you worrying that running Windows on Macs would actually be could be the death of Apple. Won't the developers go where the market is? And if the market exists for SW running on the Mac OS, because the Mac OS has better secuirty, performance and ease of use (and people get to see that as they run the two systems simultaneoulsy on the same hardware), why would the SW companies not meet the demand? I mean here you've got one computer that in affect turns into a market for both platforms. and if it's true that much of the SW used on home computers is currently pirated PC ware, then it's not like the SW companies are loosing sales to PC owners when these consumers choose to buy the Mac SW version, but rather gaining entirely new revenue from new sales to an expanding Mac market.
post #176 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by Ptrash
One question I have for all of you worrying that running Windows on Macs would actually be could be the death of Apple. Won't the developers go where the market is? And if the market exists for SW running on the Mac OS, because the Mac OS has better secuirty, performance and ease of use (and people get to see that as they run the two systems simultaneoulsy on the same hardware), why would the SW companies not meet the demand?

MS Monopoly is the keyword.

Quote:

I mean here you've got one computer that in affect turns into a market for both platforms. and if it's true that much of the SW used on home computers is currently pirated PC ware, then it's not like the SW companies are loosing sales to PC owners when these consumers choose to buy the Mac SW version, but rather gaining entirely new revenue from new sales to an expanding Mac market.

Windows share is HUGE, Mac OS share is tiny. This is at the root of the problem. If software companies realize that most users run the Windows version of the software on their Intel Mac, because it is less expensive or because they got for free somewhat (work licenses etc.), be sure that the next day it will be no Mac version.
post #177 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
The memory controller is spec'd for that. It's in the docs. It's supposed to be able to work up to 3GHz full bus speed. Unless the chip doesn't work as well as it should.

Care to back that up?

(Also, the PPC970 variants, like the POWER4/5, have their nest -- which includes the processor interface -- running at a lower frequency than their core(s).)


Quote:
But that is a whole 'nother story. If they really had to, they could always put a small fan on top. The machine, as a whole, has so much airflow that it could easily accommodate that. Look how third parties put two more HD's in the case - right in the flow of the cpu's and memory. so far, there have been no reports of overheating because of it. I would think that they could take care of the memory controller, if they had to.

There's a lot more to high frequencies than power dissipation -- especially if you're talking about PCBs, not on-chip stuff.
post #178 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by Booga
The motherboard being EFI-only isn't going to stop Windows from being run. It may prevent Windows XP from launching natively off the hardware, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that if MacIntels are EFI-only, someone will write a compatibility box (VirtualPC-lite) that will load a BIOS on top of it, and Windows on top of that. (There are several x86 emulators that can run Windows for the PowerPC, and that sure doesn't have BIOS. And one for a MacIntel wouldn't even need to emulate the processor instructions, so would be pretty speedy.)

I seem to recall that EFI includes provisions for legacy booting.
post #179 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
MS Monopoly is the keyword.


Windows share is HUGE, Mac OS share is tiny. This is at the root of the problem. If software companies realize that most users run the Windows version of the software on their Intel Mac, because it is less expensive or because they got for free somewhat (work licenses etc.), be sure that the next day it will be no Mac version.

Well, so far Adobe and ms plan to develop their software for the Mac platform.

It is hard to see Apple wanting its Mac to just be a booting place for a windos programme. Is there not a vested interest that Apple has in keeping its hardware and software distinct? Surely there is better business sense in Cupertino than to just let things drift to being a windos box.

So it sounds like your thrust is that Apple needs to not just allow windos programmes easily work on Macs, as then cross platform developers will stop producing the Mac version. Such as ms and Adobe. Well, the closure of a Mac version of software is a vital concern, for health of the platform.

The Macintosh division will be out of a job then. Wonder what that gal Roz Ho at ms is thinking about all of this, the Mac division person/lead(if she is still the lead). She thinks that the Mac business unit 'is made up of some of microsoft's most talented thinkers and developers.'

Often the Mac version seems to work better than the windos. I would think that a lot of people would kick about the demise of the Mac version of Office. I don't use it, but many people do.
post #180 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
While they might change their minds, Schiller didn't just say that windows could run on these Macs, he said that Apple wouldn't do anything that would prevent it from running.

Actually, he was more subtle than that...

"After Jobs' presentation, Apple Senior Vice President Phil Schiller addressed the issue of running Windows on Macs, saying there are no plans to sell or support Windows on an Intel-based Mac. 'That doesn't preclude someone from running it on a Mac. They probably will,' he said. 'We won't do anything to preclude that.'
However, Schiller said the company does not plan to let people run Mac OS X on other computer makers' hardware. 'We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac.'"


They don't preclude anyone from running Windows on the current Mac, should they want to. It doesn't mean it's easy.
post #181 of 452
I think being able to use Windows on a Mac is one of the best things they could do.

I am a PC user and a Mac user, but I spend most of my time on my PC because I like Windows and the apps I have on it. I like OS X too (maybe even more), but I don't particularly like using my Powerbook because it's so slow (1.25GHz 15" 512MB etc). I will probably sell it actually to get one of these new Macintels if (and only if) it can run Windows. Gaming is pretty important to me and I've never been a fan of emulation.

The way I see the future panning out - Windows runs fine, lots of people who wouldn't have considered a Mac in the past buy them (like myself at one stage), game development for the Mac dies off a fair bit, user base continues to grow, lots of new apps get made for the Mac, user base grows more, game developers see the untapped native OSX market and the Mac becomes a viable gaming platform. I don't think losing the games in the short term will be that harmful if the overall result is to grow the mac user base.
post #182 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by RazzFazz
Care to back that up?

(Also, the PPC970 variants, like the POWER4/5, have their nest -- which includes the processor interface -- running at a lower frequency than their core(s).)




There's a lot more to high frequencies than power dissipation -- especially if you're talking about PCBs, not on-chip stuff.

Well, I've spent over an hour this morning trying to find ANYTHING about the memory controller, but after having gone through over 1,000 articles and multi-page PDF's, I haven't been able to find a single note about the controller.

That's the problem with Goggle, even when you know articles are out there, because you've read them, you can't always find them.

So, if you're constitutionally against believing this, fine. It is true nevertheless, and if I do find what I need, I'll post it. There's really no point in my making it up.

As I've designed hi-freq. devices, I agree with you on your last point. But, it is by no means insurmountable. The main problems other than power dissipation, which shouldn't be a problem for a part designed to run at that speed, is line capacitance, and distance from the chip and main memory. All of those problems have been solved years ago for much higher freq. designs. If Apple wanted to do it they could.
post #183 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Actually, he was more subtle than that...

"After Jobs' presentation, Apple Senior Vice President Phil Schiller addressed the issue of running Windows on Macs, saying there are no plans to sell or support Windows on an Intel-based Mac. 'That doesn't preclude someone from running it on a Mac. They probably will,' he said. 'We won't do anything to preclude that.'
However, Schiller said the company does not plan to let people run Mac OS X on other computer makers' hardware. 'We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac.'"


They don't preclude anyone from running Windows on the current Mac, should they want to. It doesn't mean it's easy.

No, it won't have to be easy. Nut, if you looked at Apple's patent application for their new security scheme, it mentions selection from installations of Mac OS X Windows, and Linux.

This looks as though Apple is expecting there to be multiple installations, selectable (upon boot?).

This is from the patent. It, of course, also explains some of the security as well. Scroll down a bit to find it.

http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.ph...esistant_code/
post #184 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Well, I've spent over an hour this morning trying to find ANYTHING about the memory controller, but after having gone through over 1,000 articles and multi-page PDF's, I haven't been able to find a single note about the controller.

That's the problem with Goggle, even when you know articles are out there, because you've read them, you can't always find them.

So, if you're constitutionally against believing this, fine. It is true nevertheless, and if I do find what I need, I'll post it. There's really no point in my making it up.

I'm just sceptical because, as I said, to my knowledge the PPC970 variants (and POWER4/5) do not support a 1:1 nest clock, and thus having the EI be able to run at 3GHz would not seem like a very useful feature.

(I'm also not surprised you don't find much info about U3 on Google, given that it's an Apple-proprietary part and all...)


Quote:
As I've designed hi-freq. devices, I agree with you on your last point. But, it is by no means insurmountable. The main problems other than power dissipation, which shouldn't be a problem for a part designed to run at that speed, is line capacitance, and distance from the chip and main memory. All of those problems have been solved years ago for much higher freq. designs. If Apple wanted to do it they could.

I'm not aware of any digital, parallel, board-level buses that run at multi-GHz clocks on standard multi-layer PCBs...
post #185 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by melgross
..... Many PC'ers I know regularly dual boot......I'll use it to try out some games, though I'm not a game player these days, I always do that to check out the graphics, playability, etc. I will also run those programs that have never been on a Mac, and are likely never to be on a Mac, but that I find useful.



yes, definitely. spot on mate. if i get an iBook pentiumM or powerbook Yonah in 2006, dual booting into windoze will be for precisely the above reasons. ...

There's no need to dual boot (which I can't imagine His Steveness would condone) if you've got virtualization technology:

http://news.com.com/Intel+brings+vir...l?tag=nefd.top

Run OS X as your main OS, and run Windows in a separate virtual machine. Thus any bugs/viruses/malware on your windows virtual machine won't affect OS X at all.

Best of both worlds.
post #186 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
MS Monopoly is the keyword.


Windows share is HUGE, Mac OS share is tiny. This is at the root of the problem. If software companies realize that most users run the Windows version of the software on their Intel Mac, because it is less expensive or because they got for free somewhat (work licenses etc.), be sure that the next day it will be no Mac version.

Yes, the root of the problem is a tiny market vs a large market,but the way many of you look at this is negative. It's rooted on a series of assumptions
1) that the cost of developing/supporting SW for the Mac platform is higher than the returns
2) that this is not a free market, but rather a monopoly market
3) that minimizing costs is the driving force for making money in the SW biz, rather than expanding income
4) that the Mac SW market is closed, meaning new players-companies or programs-will not come onto the field. (Especially that the expansion of Mac related hardware that inevitably will take place to meet the demand of a gowing Mac platform won't translate into a corresponding expansion in the SW realm)
5) that the computer industry remains static over the next few years, selling/supporting SW in the same manner it has up til now
6) that Apple's emphasis remains on personal computers

Ok, I'm stopping because I realize I don't know enough about computers and economics to make a cogent argument. There is one point I'm trying to make here: that this is a complicated issue and essentially a question of economics and technology. I suspect that Apple has looked at this long and hard, and has had it's own employees as well as outside consultants produce models of what might happen should they go head to head with MS. I can only guess what factors they might put into such an equation. (Actually I can't-anyone with knowledge of high tech economics want to try?)

We are handicapped in that we don't have access to either the big picture, nor the small details. Is Apple going head to head with MS? We don't know. Wlll Apple's prinicple source of income 5 years from now be from sales of personal computers/SW? We don't know. We are also looking at this from a really narrow point of view because this is a very secretive company that in many ways appears to be run more like a privately held family business than a large corporation. What would be the impact on Apple should Steve Jobs suddenly die? We don't know. The one thing we do know is, as a few of you have noted, compared to times in the past where Apple ran into CPU-related hardware crises, Apple's position relative to MS is much improved. Their income and market share are increasing. They are a company on the upswing, whereas MS has been struggling to redefine itself. That has to have an impact on the decisions of SW makers.
post #187 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by bikertwin
There's no need to dual boot (which I can't imagine His Steveness would condone) if you've got virtualization technology:

http://news.com.com/Intel+brings+vir...l?tag=nefd.top

Run OS X as your main OS, and run Windows in a separate virtual machine. Thus any bugs/viruses/malware on your windows virtual machine won't affect OS X at all.

Best of both worlds.

I agree with having best of both world, but why does Windows have to load?... I think OS X will run windows apps w/out loading windows.... As long as window's apps run natively/non-natively, this option will lure in pc'ers to macworld.

I can see the new add for Leopard. "Convert to mac and bring your windows apps with you"
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post #188 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by RazzFazz
I'm just sceptical because, as I said, to my knowledge the PPC970 variants (and POWER4/5) do not support a 1:1 nest clock, and thus having the EI be able to run at 3GHz would not seem like a very useful feature.

(I'm also not surprised you don't find much info about U3 on Google, given that it's an Apple-proprietary part and all...)




I'm not aware of any digital, parallel, board-level buses that run at multi-GHz clocks on standard multi-layer PCBs...

Well, parallel buss's have been on the way out for several years now. anyway, it doesn't matter if it's parallel or not, all major bus systems that have been coming in are working in the GHz range. iSCSI, SATA, Express, etc. cell and portable phones both digital and analog, work in the multiple GHz range. One of the scopes I was using has a clock in the 5GHz range. Signal analysers also run at that speed.

The point is that the technology is well understood and implemented. The difficult range is now 10GHz and above.

Maybe you would have better luck than me. Try and find it. Sometimes you can work the search in numerous ways, and only one, just by luck, will find it.This information was out years ago. The controller could have explicitly been designed for dual core chips. IBM had them before the 970 even came out to market.
post #189 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
No the current ratio is only 1/2, but the memory controller of the G5 is 2 bidirectionnal 32 bit busses moving 4GB/sec in each direction for the G5 dual 2 ghz.

The 1/3 ratio is used for the Imac.

No!

The ratio CPU to memory controller is 4:1.
What you mean is the ratio CPU to bus data rate which is 1:2 as the bus is DDR.

And bandwidth on the bus is raw transfer rate minus overhead for the packeges. IBM claimed 8:9 for throughput:raw transfer rate.
post #190 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by smalM
No!

The ratio CPU to memory controller is 4:1.
What you mean is the ratio CPU to bus data rate which is 1:2 as the bus is DDR.

And bandwidth on the bus is raw transfer rate minus overhead for the packeges. IBM claimed 8:9 for throughput:raw transfer rate.

No, it's not. It's a bi-directional bue. Each direction is 1/4 speed, if you like to think of it that way, but the total speed of the bus is 1/2, or 1/3rd.

The G5 bus is double pumped. Maybe that's what you're thinking about.

All bus's have inefficencies, this one is no different.
post #191 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by bitemymac
I agree with having best of both world, but why does Windows have to load?... I think OS X will run windows apps w/out loading windows.... As long as window's apps run natively/non-natively, this option will lure in pc'ers to macworld.

I can see the new add for Leopard. "Convert to mac and bring your windows apps with you"

Ah, can you say "OS/2"?

IBM made OS/2 run Windows 3.x apps natively under OS/2 2.x in the early-to-mid 1990's. Nobody wrote OS/2 apps, since Windows apps ran just fine under OS/2. It's this very case that is probably prompting many people to warn about running Windows apps too conveniently.

The huge difference here, though, is that IBM never wrote any OS/2 software--not consumer software, in any case.

Apple, on the other hand, makes most of the software that users have on their Mac other than Adobe, Microsoft, & Intuit apps.

Really, other than utilities and shareware/freeware apps, what other software do most people run? (There used to be hundreds of companies producing consumer software; now it's mainly down to Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, and Intuit.) It's mostly Apple software that people run on their Macs, and the percentage of Apple software is growing every year.

In contrast to people who say the Mac experience is the hardware or the hardware/software combination, the Mac experience is clearly becoming a mainly software experience.

No one does software like Apple.

(That's not to say the hardware doesn't count; I just don't think it's quite as important as it used to be. The Mac hardware advantage is mostly style and ease-of-use, rather than technology, IMHO, whereas Apple's advantage in software is style, ease of use, and technology.)
post #192 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by bikertwin
Ah, can you say "OS/2"?

IBM made OS/2 run Windows 3.x apps natively under OS/2 2.x in the early-to-mid 1990's. Nobody wrote OS/2 apps, since Windows apps ran just fine under OS/2. It's this very case that is probably prompting many people to warn about running Windows apps too conveniently.

The huge difference here, though, is that IBM never wrote any OS/2 software--not consumer software, in any case.

Apple, on the other hand, makes most of the software that users have on their Mac other than Adobe, Microsoft, & Intuit apps.

Really, other than utilities and shareware/freeware apps, what other software do most people run? (There used to be hundreds of companies producing consumer software; now it's mainly down to Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, and Intuit.) It's mostly Apple software that people run on their Macs, and the percentage of Apple software is growing every year.

In contrast to people who say the Mac experience is the hardware or the hardware/software combination, the Mac experience is clearly becoming a mainly software experience.

No one does software like Apple.

(That's not to say the hardware doesn't count; I just don't think it's quite as important as it used to be. The Mac hardware advantage is mostly style and ease-of-use, rather than technology, IMHO, whereas Apple's advantage in software is style, ease of use, and technology.)

The point about OS/2 is correct. There were other issues as well.

IBM's software division wanted the hardware division to install OS/2 on all IBM machines by default, and offer Windows instead as an option, rather than the other way around, which is the way they were doing it.

The hardawre division balked because they were afraid that most customers, not being familliar with OS/2, would pass on the machines.

So IBM lost their chance.

That was, by the way, when IBM and Apple were collaborating on "Pink" and Taligent.

While Apple does make more software than they ever did, the fact that over 3,000 developers showed up at the conference in June shows that there are many developers.

We really don't want to lose them.

There are far more programs out there than most people think. Most are specialized, but all are important.
post #193 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
No, it's not. It's a bi-directional bue. Each direction is 1/4 speed, if you like to think of it that way, but the total speed of the bus is 1/2, or 1/3rd.

The G5 bus is double pumped. Maybe that's what you're thinking about.

All bus's have inefficencies, this one is no different.

Yes I know the difference between data rate and bus clock.

"bi-directional bus"? The bus is dual unidirectional!

One way is 1/4 CPU (=clock of the memory controller) *2 (double pumped bus) *4 (32bit width bus) *8/9 (packeging overhead) = 4.4 GB/s bandwidth in each direction for the 2.5GHz PM.

Hope that makes it clear for you what I mean. Sorry, english was only my third foreign language in school....
post #194 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by smalM
Yes I know the difference between data rate and bus clock.

"bi-directional bus"? The bus is dual unidirectional!

One way is 1/4 CPU (=clock of the memory controller) *2 (double pumped bus) *4 (32bit width bus) *8/9 (packeging overhead) = 4.4 GB/s bandwidth in each direction for the 2.5GHz PM.

Hope that makes it clear for you what I mean. Sorry, english was only my third foreign language in school....

That's what we were saying. A bus's speed isn't measured by one direction.
post #195 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by bikertwin
Ah, can you say "OS/2"?

IBM made OS/2 run Windows 3.x apps natively under OS/2 2.x in the early-to-mid 1990's. Nobody wrote OS/2 apps, since Windows apps ran just fine under OS/2. It's this very case that is probably prompting many people to warn about running Windows apps too conveniently.

The huge difference here, though, is that IBM never wrote any OS/2 software--not consumer software, in any case.

Apple, on the other hand, makes most of the software that users have on their Mac other than Adobe, Microsoft, & Intuit apps.

Really, other than utilities and shareware/freeware apps, what other software do most people run? (There used to be hundreds of companies producing consumer software; now it's mainly down to Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, and Intuit.) It's mostly Apple software that people run on their Macs, and the percentage of Apple software is growing every year.

In contrast to people who say the Mac experience is the hardware or the hardware/software combination, the Mac experience is clearly becoming a mainly software experience.

No one does software like Apple.

(That's not to say the hardware doesn't count; I just don't think it's quite as important as it used to be. The Mac hardware advantage is mostly style and ease-of-use, rather than technology, IMHO, whereas Apple's advantage in software is style, ease of use, and technology.)

Very good point on OS/2....

The new MacIntel hardware with Leopard being released right around the Vista, where windows users and apps may also need updates to work on Vista.... Everyone will need to go through transitions..... and one on the MS end will predictably be a nightmare.

It will be interesting if Apple can make old window apps run better/stabler on Leopard than the Vista can. At this point in time, all old window apps have to go through emulated process on the Vista as well as if they were to run on Leopard. I'm not even sure if Vista will run old window apps.

In anyrate, it's about gaining market shares on the OS installed base and the developers will follow when that happens.
always a newbie
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always a newbie
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post #196 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by bitemymac
Very good point on OS/2....

The new MacIntel hardware with Leopard being released right around the Vista, where windows users and apps may also need updates to work on Vista.... Everyone will need to go through transitions..... and one on the MS end will predictably be a nightmare.

It will be interesting if Apple can make old window apps run better/stabler on Leopard than the Vista can. At this point in time, all old window apps have to go through emulated process on the Vista as well as if they were to run on Leopard. I'm not even sure if Vista will run old window apps.

In anyrate, it's about gaining market shares on the OS installed base and the developers will follow when that happens.

It depends on what yoummean by "old". Current apps will run.

Apple has the same problem with the Mactels. OS 9 and earlier won't run. It's one way to get Mac users onto OS X for good.
post #197 of 452
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You sound like you actually believe that a piece of software will be impossible to crack.

Anyone read digital fortress?
-Shawn
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-Shawn
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post #198 of 452
bikertwin and dojobi: yes, virtualization without dual booting means a thin layer that handles virtual x86 machines, without emulation. that would be sweet for windows apps and other legacy rubbish eg. Freecell currently vmware on x86 linux/windows support for 3D acceleration is experimental but eventually developers, maybe with a helping hand from ati/nvidia, will be able to present Directx9.0c & OpenGL2.0 support in virtualization.

this would mean a dearth of mac game development in the short term but i believe as the installed base of x86 mac users grows considerably, new, unimagined-before possibilities will open up after a year or so.

PS. anyone know good freeware Freecell or Solitare for mac os X PPC? i'm serious, its for my aunt that just Switched.

edit: found this freeware. might be good, nice evolution from windoze solitaire to 3D solitaire with freecell, solitaire standard and a lot of other modes!!
http://www.grassgames.com/solitaire/index.html
post #199 of 452
I like the sound of this virtualisation. I hadn't read much on it to be honest, but if it's as seamless as you say, then I'm all for it.

Can't help you on the freecell front, unfortunately. I understand her addiction, though
post #200 of 452
Originally posted by dojobi
I like the sound of this virtualisation. I hadn't read much on it to be honest, but if it's as seamless as you say, then I'm all for it.

Can't help you on the freecell front, unfortunately. I understand her addiction, though



heh. yeah. i'm fairly impressed with vmware, compared with just virtual PC in the past. also the Wine open source project has even more potential, as there is no thin client layer at all.

imagine if you could put onto mac os X86 a directx9.0+ library and PC games run seamlessly on it. yes, death of Mac PPC games, but think of the possibilities, everyone....

now think of openGL 2.0 library on mac os X86. now think of game developers going, hmm.. if i write for openGL 2.0 on windows x86, writing for linux x86 and mac x86 is not too much of a stretch... yeah, excellent, f** directX. YEAH.

virtualisation is somewhat in its infancy with regards to games, but for standard apps it is pretty sweet. vmware workstation 5 "multiple snapshot" feature is a million times better and more efficient than the old technique of "ghosting"
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