or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › CHENEY: Criticize me and you don't support the troops
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

CHENEY: Criticize me and you don't support the troops

post #1 of 191
Thread Starter 
Basically, what Cheney's saying here is that all his well documented lies are really just politics being played by Democrats and it's bad form for them to do so when we're in the middle of a war.

Ironic, isn't it?

Cheney's lies help start the war. And when it becomes clear the he and his administration have lied through their teeth to start it, you can't criticise him because of the war.

Fucking brilliant!


Quote:
CHENEY FIGHTS BACK
Wed Nov 16 2005 18:56:46 ET

Excerpts As Prepared For Delivery Tonight by Vice President Cheney

THE VICE PRESIDENT: "As most of you know, I have spent a lot of years in public service, and first came to work in Washington, D.C. back in the late 1960s. I know what its like to operate in a highly charged political environment, in which the players on all sides of an issue feel passionately and speak forcefully.

In such an environment people sometimes lose their cool, and yet in Washington you can ordinarily rely on some basic measure of truthfulness and good faith in the conduct of political debate. But in the last several weeks we have seen a wild departure from that tradition.

And the suggestion thats been made by some U. S. senators that the President of the United States or any member of this Administration purposely misled the American people on pre-war intelligence is one of the most dishonest and reprehensible charges ever aired in this city...

Some of the most irresponsible comments have, of course, come from politicians who actually voted in favor of authorizing force against Saddam Hussein. These are elected officials who had access to the intelligence, and were free to draw their own conclusions.

They arrived at the same judgment about Iraqs capabilities and intentions that was made by this Administration and by the previous Administration. There was broad-based, bipartisan agreement that Saddam Hussein was a threat that he had violated U.N. Security Council Resolutions and that, in a post-9/11 world, we couldnt afford to take the word of a dictator who had a history of WMD programs, who had excluded weapons inspectors, who had defied the demands of the international community, who had been designated an official state sponsor of terror, and who had committed mass murder.

Those are facts.

What were hearing now is some politicians contradicting their own statements and making a play for political advantage in the middle of a war. The saddest part is that our people in uniform have been subjected to these cynical and pernicious falsehoods day in and day out. American soldiers and Marines are out there every day in dangerous conditions and desert temperatures conducting raids, training Iraqi forces, countering attacks, seizing weapons, and capturing killers and back home a few opportunists are suggesting they were sent into battle for a lie.

The President and I cannot prevent certain politicians from losing their memory, or their backbone but were not going to sit by and let them rewrite history.

Were going to continue throwing their own words back at them. And far more important, were going to continue sending a consistent message to the men and women who are fighting the war on terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other fronts.

We can never say enough how much we appreciate them, and how proud they make us. They and their families can be certain: That this cause is right and the performance of our military has been brave and honorable and this nation will stand behind our fighting forces with pride and without wavering until the day of victory.

Developing...
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #2 of 191
That's an interesting message you exprapolated from the quoted text. Certainly I see a man taking a defensive stance. I find your interpretation to be rooted more in you own thoughts and feelings about the situation than based on what I read in your quote.

I don't really care that you have concluded what you have, and I'm not taking a position as to wether or not I agree or disagree with your general view, but I'm having a little trouble seeing such a blantantly dumb message, "Criticize me and you don't support the troops", hidden (or even out in the open) in what you chose to quote.

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #3 of 191
Funny isnt it, look deep into Iraq and Cheney is all over it. Libby fell on his sword to protect Cheney,Woodword all of a sudden remembers stuff from over 2 years ago to again protect Cheney? Oil Executives in Secret meetings with Cheney setting our energy policy,wasnt he the one living in a bunker after 911? This guy is behind the Whitehouse in every way. In fact I have never seen a vice president that was so involved with the day to day operations as this vice. He is also the one pushing for Torture,Secret prisons etc. I also would like to point out that Cheney is another part of Bush's Deferral gang meaning while his fellow students were off to war in vietnam getting killed for our politicians at the time he was getting deferral after deferral. Can anyone define a Chickenhawk? That would do it for me.
I support the troops 100% as a veteran, I dont support these Neocons who got us in Iraq for their own reasons.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
post #4 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
I don't really care that you have concluded what you have, and I'm not taking a position as to wether or not I agree or disagree with your general view, but I'm having a little trouble seeing such a blantantly dumb message, "Criticize me and you don't support the troops", hidden (or even out in the open) in what you chose to quote.


Uhh..

Quote:
Were going to continue throwing their own words back at them. And far more important, were going to continue sending a consistent message to the men and women who are fighting the war on terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other fronts.

We can never say enough how much we appreciate them, and how proud they make us. They and their families can be certain: That this cause is right and the performance of our military has been brave and honorable and this nation will stand behind our fighting forces with pride and without wavering until the day of victory.

He's saying that 'certain Senators that voted for military force to be used against Saddam Hussein' (i.e. all of Congress, pretty much) are implying that the military is not performing well (hence, "...and the performance of our military has been brave...") and that the cause is neither right, nor has it ever been (hence, "...that this cause is right...").

Additionally, he's saying that the current messed-up political climate is caused by those who disagree with him, therefore those who disagree with him (and Bush) are the ones that want him and Bush to send "..mixed messages..." to the military, which would, logically, hurt the military instead of supporting it.

It's as clear as the nose in the face what he's saying.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #5 of 191
So you do not agree that:

a) Our intelligence (however wrong) showed that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and...
b) Both Democrats and Republicans agreed that SH broke U.N. resolutions and...
c) Both Democrats and Republicans voted to authorize war based on 'a' and 'b' and...
d) Some politicians who voted for the war are now saying there weren't good reasons to go to war.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
post #6 of 191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
That's an interesting message you exprapolated from the quoted text. Certainly I see a man taking a defensive stance. I find your interpretation to be rooted more in you own thoughts and feelings about the situation than based on what I read in your quote.

I don't really care that you have concluded what you have, and I'm not taking a position as to wether or not I agree or disagree with your general view, but I'm having a little trouble seeing such a blantantly dumb message, "Criticize me and you don't support the troops", hidden (or even out in the open) in what you chose to quote.


Really. Which part of this quote cannot be extrapolated?

"The saddest part is that our people in uniform have been subjected to these cynical and pernicious falsehoods day in and day out. American soldiers and Marines are out there every day in dangerous conditions and desert temperatures conducting raids, training Iraqi forces, countering attacks, seizing weapons, and capturing killers and back home a few opportunists are suggesting they were sent into battle for a lie. "

So because Democrats, progressives, liberals and independents are hammering the "administration" about its rationale for war, it somehow is subjecting the "soldier" to pernicious falsehoods? Great logic leap there.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #7 of 191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
So you do not agree that:

a) Our intelligence (however wrong) showed that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and...
b) Both Democrats and Republicans agreed that SH broke U.N. resolutions and...
c) Both Democrats and Republicans voted to authorize war based on 'a' and 'b' and...
d) Some politicians who voted for the war are now saying there weren't good reasons to go to war.

a) I do not agree our intelligence showed that Saddam had WMDs. I also conclude that we now know the intelligence was cooked by the administration in order to "sell" this war to the American people.

b) Both Democrats and Republicans voted for the war based on falsehoods intentionally presented to them via multiple misinformation streams, including but not limited to the state of the union address.

c) No. Some politicians are admitting that they made a mistake.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #8 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
...wasnt (Cheney) the one living in a bunker after 911?

Oh, please! Like he had a choice in the matter. He's the Vice President of the United States and the Secret Service has a job to protect him.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
post #9 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
d) Some politicians who voted for the war are now saying there weren't good reasons to go to war. [/B]

No, some politicians who voted for the War Resolution (which is NOT a legally binding act) are now saying that the intelligence that they have been presented has been false, wrong, and totally, utterly off the mark. The intelligence agency warned the administration that the intelligence wasn't conclusive and strong enough, yet the administration never stopped propagating the message that doom was about to come and its name was Iraq.

That's what it's all about, yo.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #10 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Oh, please! Like he had a choice in the matter. He's the Vice President of the United States and the Secret Service has a job to protect him.

If it hadn't been for the Secret Service, he would be right in NYC, throwing grenades at OBL and his minions.

That Secret Service... clearly has an agenda.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #11 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
So you do not agree that:

a) Our intelligence (however wrong) showed that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and...
b) Both Democrats and Republicans agreed that SH broke U.N. resolutions and...
c) Both Democrats and Republicans voted to authorize war based on 'a' and 'b' and...
d) Some politicians who voted for the war are now saying there weren't good reasons to go to war.

e) And Dick Cheneys Haliburton got to clean it all up and make billions off of U.S. tax payers money and didnt have to compete for any contract.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
post #12 of 191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
No, some politicians who voted for the War Resolution (which is NOT a legally binding act) are now saying that the intelligence that they have been presented has been false, wrong, and totally, utterly off the mark. The intelligence agency warned the administration that the intelligence wasn't conclusive and strong enough, yet the administration never stopped propagating the message that doom was about to come and its name was Iraq.

That's what it's all about, yo.

Another point that seems to be missed is that you can only call the 2002 vote a "vote for war" if you assumed that Bush was lying about how he was going to use the authorization (to pressure Saddam to get him to disarm) and that he had already decide to take out Saddam. That is obviously a fair assumption now but could senator have fairly assumed that in 2002? Is Bush saying that senator should have assumed he was lying when they voted?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #13 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
[B]So you do not agree that:

a) Our intelligence (however wrong) showed that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and.../B]

I don't agree with that. First, although there was certainly intelligence favoring WMDs, there was also a great deal of evidence contradicting it. Second, the Bush administration ran the intelligence-gathering and interpreting, not some independent party. Finally, congress doesn't have direct access to raw intelligence, they get what members of the Bush administration give them.
post #14 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Uhh..



He's saying that 'certain Senators that voted for military force to be used against Saddam Hussein' (i.e. all of Congress, pretty much) are implying that the military is not performing well (hence, "...and the performance of our military has been brave...") and that the cause is neither right, nor has it ever been (hence, "...that this cause is right...").

Additionally, he's saying that the current messed-up political climate is caused by those who disagree with him, therefore those who disagree with him (and Bush) are the ones that want him and Bush to send "..mixed messages..." to the military, which would, logically, hurt the military instead of supporting it.

It's as clear as the nose in the face what he's saying.

Looks to me like he's saying people are criticizing the justification for war. Not the people engaged in it. And in addition, he's saying the criticisms of the cause negatively affect the troops. That's different than saying they don't support the troops.


Let me be clear: I am speaking specifically about the quoted text. I am WELL aware of these ridiculous assertions being made outside of this thread, and the text in question.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #15 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Another point that seems to be missed is that you can only call the 2002 vote a "vote for war" if you assumed that Bush was lying about how he was going to use the authorization (to pressure Saddam to get him to disarm) and that he had already decide to take out Saddam.

Any senator who voted for the war believing we were ONLY playing some sick game of international chicken should have known better -- Republicans and Democrats alike.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
post #16 of 191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Looks to me like he's saying people are criticizing the justification for war. Not the people engaged in it. And in addition, he's saying the criticisms of the cause negatively affect the troops. That's different than saying they don't support the troops.


Let me be clear: I am speaking specifically about the quoted text. I am WELL aware of these ridiculous assertions being made outside of this thread, and the text in question.

There's tons of subtext in there. Come on.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #17 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Oh, please! Like he had a choice in the matter. He's the Vice President of the United States and the Secret Service has a job to protect him.

True, but anyway you look at everything its very clear the Cia Leak came from HIS office and in all probability from him. Lets just face it we were all played by this administration along with our Dumb Reactionary which way is the wind blowing Congress. 2,079 Dead Americans, 15,000+ Injured or Limbless and those WMDs......................what do you mean we didnt find any? Iraq had nothing to do with 911. Thats the fact.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
post #18 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
There's tons of subtext in there. Come on.

And it's not just subtext, rageous. "What were hearing now is some politicians contradicting their own statements and making a play for political advantage in the middle of a war. The saddest part is that our people in uniform have been subjected to these cynical and pernicious falsehoods day in and day out. American soldiers and Marines are out there every day in dangerous conditions and desert temperatures conducting raids, training Iraqi forces, countering attacks, seizing weapons, and capturing killers and back home a few opportunists are suggesting they were sent into battle for a lie."

I don't see how you can say that's not "criticize me and you don't support the troops."
post #19 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
And it's not just subtext, rageous. "What were hearing now is some politicians contradicting their own statements and making a play for political advantage in the middle of a war. The saddest part is that our people in uniform have been subjected to these cynical and pernicious falsehoods day in and day out. American soldiers and Marines are out there every day in dangerous conditions and desert temperatures conducting raids, training Iraqi forces, countering attacks, seizing weapons, and capturing killers and back home a few opportunists are suggesting they were sent into battle for a lie."

I don't see how you can say that's not "criticize me and you don't support the troops."

They were sent in for a lie since they didnt have the WMDs. Yellowcake was a lie, Aluminum tubes were a lie, Bin Laden and his boys working with Saddam was a lie, etc..... and though Cheney and the Deferral gang knew this they kept feeding these lies to everyone.
Maybe Lie is strong lets just say Cheney and his deferral buddies Spun the truth.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
post #20 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
There's tons of subtext in there.

I disgaree with your original assertions, and I don't need to read what's not there to think what he said was dumb.

I think what's being said directly is dumb enough. I don't believe that criticizing a plan is harmful to the troops. I think valid concern (though being brought forth in an over the top manner not unlike most things in Washington) being spun as something reprehensibly harmful is ridiculous, because it is settting precedent that questioning is bad and therefor should not be done.

But I just don't read your perceived subtext. He is not saying (again, here) democrats do not support troops. He's saying their actions are harmful to them, which is quite different, although equally dumb, IMO.

Quote:
Come on.

Allow me to now read subtext. Do not think I am being wilfully ignorant. I am interested in furthering the discussion as you presented it.

If we want to have a more broad conversation on the subject, I think you'll find I'm fully aware of the context of the larger issues at play here.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #21 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I don't see how you can say that's not "criticize me and you don't support the troops."

Easy. While you look for the hidden meaning, I see him openly saying "questioning our methods is harmful and dishonest."

I find that much more appalling and frightening, but I guess I like to stick with the real dumb things ACTUALLY said, not the dumb things he might be hinting at.

My bad.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #22 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
I find that much more appalling and frightening,

My bad.

Yet you clearly tried to make it look like all he was doing was responding to others that 'attacked' him.

Quote:
Certainly I see a man taking a defensive stance.

Um, yeah...
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #23 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Yet you clearly tried to make it look like all he was doing was responding to others that 'attacked' him.

I never said that's "all" he was doing. But yes, he was responding to the democrats criticisms. I'm confident in my belief he would have never made that speech in the absense of said criticisms.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #24 of 191
So, what else was he doing?

Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
I'm confident in my belief he would have never made that speech in the absense of said criticisms.

Brilliant.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #25 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
So, what else was he doing?



Brilliant.

Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Easy. While you look for the hidden meaning, I see him openly saying "questioning our methods is harmful and dishonest."

I find that much more appalling and frightening, but I guess I like to stick with the real dumb things ACTUALLY said, not the dumb things he might be hinting at.

My bad.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #26 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
But I just don't read your perceived subtext. He is not saying (again, here) democrats do not support troops. He's saying their actions are harmful to them, which is quite different, although equally dumb, IMO.

I really don't see the distinction you're making here. How can you support the troops if you're harming them.
post #27 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I really don't see the distinction you're making here. How can you support the troops if you're harming them.

Quite easily.

One can be doing what they think is right, and/or best for the troops, but be woefully misguided.

Support isn't alwasy the question. The methodology quite often is.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #28 of 191
A crude example:

I support my neighbrs decision to plant a garden in his yard. So i take out a bobcat and trench a large planting area for him.

The problem is he didn't even want the garden where I trenched, which just happened to be right through a copper line that lead liquid propane from the tank outside his house to his furnace.

So I screwed him over, but it's not like i wasn't TRYING to help him.

May sound stupid, but my neghbor did that very thing to me last fall. I don't think he's a bad guy, and I know he was trying to do good, but he put me at great risk.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #29 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
May sound stupid, but my neghbor did that very thing to me last fall. I don't think he's a bad guy, and I know he was trying to do good, but he put me at great risk.

Did he stick around for as long as it took to rebuild your lawn?
Did he train you how to plant the best garden possible?

or...

Did he leave in the middle of rebuilding your lawn because his wife was nagging him to come home, making you fend for yourself armed with only what he told you up to that point?

Gotta love analogies.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
Reply
post #30 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Any senator who voted for the war believing we were ONLY playing some sick game of international chicken should have known better -- Republicans and Democrats alike.

Right, the new Bush rationalization: "You mean you guys were stupid enough to actually buy my horseshit about 'bringing pressure to bear'' and 'war only as a last resort' and 'pursuing every peaceful avenue? Everybody knows when presidents say stuff like that they've already decided on preemptive invasion for the first time in American history! Well, obviously you have nobody to blame but yourselves!".

This is the standard Rovian attack mode: turn reality on its head and scream it from the rooftops.

With all we now know about the cherry picked intelligence, the carefully worded "plausibly deniable" doomsday scenarios (see, he never actually said "imminent"), the cases pressed that the administration knew to be at the very least highly dubious if not utterly false (Saddam is rebuilding his nuclear capability, Saddam has magic drones that can reach the United States, and my favorite, Cheney's repeated assertion that al Qaeda and Saddam were cozying up, which we now know was based on a single informant that State was pretty much dismissing out of hand as a liar, a fact the Cheney knew while he was making the rounds of the news shows talking about just that), after all of that, this piece of shit has the fucking balls to start in about "rewriting history"? These people have no shame, no morals, and will stop at nothing.

Their first instinct, when caught in their own web of lies, is to attack and smear and lie some more.

I am honestly disgusted that there are still people that see some need to defend this grotesque misbegotten stain on America's history.

People who will pretend that the issue hangs on whether anyone thought Saddam had WMD, when you fucking well know that wasn't the issue, that the Bush administration made the issue Saddam as a threat to the US, either by nukes or providing al Qaeda with weapons.

And those are exactly the two issues they lied about most. When it looked like the UN inspectors were well on their way to disproving the former, they started smearing the inspectors and increased pressure to get the war started so their 'opportunity' wouldn't die on the vine.

I honestly don't believe that any sentient person any longer accepts Bush and Cheney's rational for going to war, and simply reflexively repeat the talking points because to be a conservative is to be "on their side" and "against the other side" and you can't let the other side "win".

Problem being that the "other side" is now America itself. Party over country. Assholes.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #31 of 191
They can try all they want to rewrite history, but it is not going to work.

The only dig the unadorned graves their legacies will soon reside in.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #32 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Did he stick around for as long as it took to rebuild your lawn?
Did he train you how to plant the best garden possible?

or...

Did he leave in the middle of rebuilding your lawn because his wife was nagging him to come home, making you fend for yourself armed with only what he told you up to that point?

Gotta love analogies.

Actually, when i found out what he had done, he was not home, and I was trying to drag my father into the house, who had just gone through a particularly harsh dose of chemotherapy.

So I was on my own to try and take care of it for approximately 7 hours.

But this isn't about me, no matter how cool i am
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #33 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
They can try all they want to rewrite history, but it is not going to work.

The only dig the unadorned graves their legacies will soon reside in.

God, I hope you're right.

It is somewhat heartening that most Americans no longer believe that the war was necessary, so that when Cheney lays into "those that would rewrite history" he is in effect attacking close to two thirds of the country.

I think they're so used to isolating and demonizing their critics that they have failed to notice that, increasingly, it is they who are isolated, in an ever shrinking circle of their own lies.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #34 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Quite easily.

One can be doing what they think is right, and/or best for the troops, but be woefully misguided.

Support isn't alwasy the question. The methodology quite often is.

But I don't think intentionality was anywhere in Northgate's title that you disagreed with so strongly. Quite the opposite, it's clear that he's saying that the effect of criticism is to hurt the troops, regardless of the intentionality. I think you're reading things to finely. Cheney is saying "criticize me, you don't support the troops," plain and simple.
post #35 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
But I don't think intentionality was anywhere in Northgate's title that you disagreed with so strongly. Quite the opposite, it's clear that he's saying that the effect of criticism is to hurt the troops, regardless of the intentionality. I think you're reading things to finely. Cheney is saying "criticize me, you don't support the troops," plain and simple.

No, he's saying "criticize us and you're being harmful to the troops." That is plain and simple, because it's exactly what he's saying.

The "subtexts" of this quote are going to be different to each person based on their preconceived notions.

I could just as easily take the following quote and toy with it to say what I want

Quote:
The saddest part is that our people in uniform have been subjected to these cynical and pernicious falsehoods day in and day out. American soldiers and Marines are out there every day in dangerous conditions and desert temperatures

OMG, CHENEY IN HIS OWN WORDS: "the democrats are not only responsible for the dangerous military conditions, but for the sweltering desert heat as well!!!!!!!"
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #36 of 191
I think Josh at TPM sums it up nicely:

Quote:
Virtually all of the arguments the White House is now advancing are transparently ridiculous on their face to anyone who has closely followed this evolving debate over the last three years.

But that doesn't matter. The White House doesn't need to win any debates. What they need is for their core supporters to have something to say. Anything. And to be able to say it loudly. The one thing that would be fatal for the White House from its defenders would be silence.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #37 of 191
Dick Cheney had 5 Deferrals to avoid Vietnam! 5! I have no respect for someone who never served but then wants send people to die for his flawed policies and spin. This guy is a beauracratic paper pusher and has no idea what it means to be shot at, to fight, to risk your life for some !@#$%^& politicians stupid policy and yet they want to hold on to the dream that all of those Islamic extremist freaks are going to all of a sudden embrace democracy.

Footnote when Vietnam was happening where was George and Dick? Avoiding the war!. Not that i dont blame them because Vietnam was a screwed up mess. The Iraq war is another screwed up mess and yet these clowns are doing the same thing the clowns in washington did during vietnam.

Everytime an Iraqi is trained we should bring home a US soldier so they can perform Real National Guard duties here at home as they are suppose to.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
post #38 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
No, he's saying "criticize us and you're being harmful to the troops." That is plain and simple, because it's exactly what he's saying.

You're making a big deal of the difference between harming and not supporting, and yet you're telling Northgate that he's reading too much into things. Come on, this is a legalistic analysis in an apparent attempt to ameliorate what this administration is saying. Cheney/Rove know very well that it's quite a devastating argument to claim that a politician doesn't support the troops, and that's why they're saying this. Everything else is just internet message board semantics contests.
post #39 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
You're making a big deal of the difference between harming and not supporting, and yet you're telling Northgate that he's reading too much into things. Come on, this is a legalistic analysis in an apparent attempt to ameliorate what this administration is saying. Cheney/Rove know very well that it's quite a devastating argument to claim that a politician doesn't support the troops, and that's why they're saying this. Everything else is just internet message board semantics contests.

I'm making a big deal of it because you seem to not understand one can believe they are supportive, yet their actions can be harmful.

Now, I don't subscribe to the theory that that the dems are doing is harmful, and I'm not questioning their level of troop support.

I am saying Cheney is stating one, what I believe to be, falsehood and you're just blowing by it in search of a falsehood you want to see be hinted at and tear down. Why not just call him out on what he said? You waste time going after what you think he said, or the hidden messages only visible to the non-brainwashed. Look at exactly what he said, and discuss how stupid it is.

Look at Iraq itself. Many believe the country is in a shambles. I'm not going to argue if I think that's right or wrong, because it doesn't matter. I'm sure most people here support our men and women in uniform. But if you also believe the country is totally FUBAR, then you have to say that you support the troops, but their actions have been harmful to the future of Iraq. I don't see that as being such an evil point of view, and I'm also not taking them to task for following orders. THe higher ups SHOULD be the ones feeling the heat. But ultimately, if you think Iraq is F'ed up, then you have to feel that the military, that means the brass and the grunts alike, have harmed Iraq. That's a perfectly valid stance to take, IMO., and does not in any way suggest lack of support for the people in harm's way.

I still contend that no matter how innacurate and silly his comments were, I don't see him (in THIS instance) calling out their support. Sorry, I just don't. If that's harmful to (or shall I say a gross lack of support for ()) your blood pressure, then I suggest we agree to disagree about the hidden context.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #40 of 191
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I really don't see the distinction you're making here. How can you support the troops if you're harming them.

It´s called "Naples Logic". Sort of like that gem that you can be biased but still be objective. Or Cheney re: Vietnam.

I´ve been following this discussion and the only thing I can say is....come on Rageous, blinders off for just a second.

A little less Fox would help too.

And to everyone else. Lay off Dick Cheney the war hero.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › CHENEY: Criticize me and you don't support the troops