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Running Windows on Mactel computers - Page 2

post #41 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac~N~Cheese
Say you just wanted a Windows environment for gaming purposes ONLY?

Say you found no apps you cared enough about to buy a PC...apps that didn't have a superior Mac counterpart anyway. =)

Say you were only considering some basic PC that you could doctor and get you playing the games that weren't available for the Mac.

Would you buy some entry level cheapo PC now or wait and hope to play on a Mactel?

I know VPC is getting better all the time, but last time I checked (I have VPC 5), it didn't support any sort of 3D graphic acceleration, which is...lets face it...a dealbreaker with 99.999% of today's games.

So...okay, hotshot...there's a bomb on a bus.

Whadda ya do?!

You download WINE. Based on the history of Linux-based software in OSX, there will also come along a frontend that eliminates the admittedly yucky messing around with config files. Hopefully that will progress into somehow integrating into the Dock to make it so that running Windows apps in OSX is trasparent. OSX has had a very positive indirect effect so far on OSS, from what I can see, and I don't see it changing any time soon.
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post #42 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
No, sorry, Windows has been booted on Intel Macs

Intel Macs don't exist. Nobody knows how close the DTK is, architecture-wise, to anything that will actually ship to users.

Quote:
and Phil Schiller has said that Apple won't actively try to block installations of Windows on their machines. I mean, why would they? It's just another perk of buying a Mac, and might push some PC buyers to get a Mac.

They probably won't, no. But maybe there will be very practical reasons, such as a slightly atypical architecture (e.g. EFI).
post #43 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
No, sorry, Windows has been booted on Intel Macs

Yes, the dev kits, which are minimally changed stock x86 boxes - you'd *expect* them to be able to boot Windows, wouldn't you?

The dev kits ARE NOT the final shipping product, and no one, including me or you, has any clue what that final product is going to be like.

ie, speculation.

Quote:
and Phil Schiller has said that Apple won't actively try to block installations of Windows on their machines. I mean, why would they? It's just another perk of buying a Mac, and might push some PC buyers to get a Mac.

Logical error.

Sony doesn't actively block running Windows on their CD players either... that doesn't mean that you *can*.

"We will not actively prevent Windows from running" != "You will be able to run Windows"

What if the hardware includes pieces not currently supported by Windows drivers? Apple won't write them, but they won't prevent MS from doing so... if they choose to.

ie, no guarantee.

Quote:
That said, it likely won't be an extremely user-friendly process to install both, but I was able to install OS X and Windows on an unsupported PC without a UI, so no doubt visa-versa will be even easier on a Mac.

That assumes a lot about how close the shipping Intel Macs will be to standard x86 hardware now.

You *MIGHT* be able to boot Windows directly on the machines, and you *MIGHT NOT*.

ie, speculation, with no guarantees.

Speculation does not mean "you won't", it simply means "we don't know for sure". Chances are indeed fairly good that you will be able to dual-boot into Windows if you really want to, depending on how different the HW is, what drivers are needed, who ponies up the support for those drivers, etc, etc, etc. I suspect that eventually, you'll be able to boot into Windows if for no other reason than hackers like a challenge.

That does *not* mean that you'll be able to buy an Intel Mac, and a copy of Vista, and have it work out of the box. Maybe, maybe not. Speculation.
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post #44 of 81
dual booting has got to be quicker than waiting for VPC to fireup on a G4.
post #45 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
..it's hard to imagine people restarting their computer to use an app or play a game on the other OS. You'd have to save all your work...and close whatever websites you were browsing, whatever conversations you were having on iChat, whatever tune you were playing in iTunes.

I do it all the time. I reboot from OS X into OS 9 to play Warcraft 2. But you have a very good point, one I hadn't considered before. I can't see myself rebooting from OS X into Windows as that would lock me out of OS X. I had actually considered it, but the only program I would be using in Windows is AutoCAD. That would be a pain indeed as my work and preferred apps are in OS X. When I'm playing Warcraft that is all that I'm doing so it works just fine, but this scenario isn't the same when you are working. Sooner or later you will need to e-mail, go to a web site, play music and what not. I certainly don't want to be doing any of this in Windows meaning I would have to be constantly rebooting. OK, never mind. Get a low cost PC if you have apps that you MUST use in Windows.
post #46 of 81
when you say "dual booting" do you mean have both os's running at the same time. i would do that with classic and os 10 simply switch back and forth or have two windows open (split screen) if that's the case that's what i want with windows. for work i use just one windows program w/IE that way i could do everything else in os x just switch views--seemless, on those weeks i don't need the windows program i'd just wouldn't boot it up with os x. my default would be osx then add windows when needed. this way i could get that pb i've always wanted. hopefully it comes with dual core, compact high density HD and dvd burner.
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post #47 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
when you say "dual booting" do you mean have both os's running at the same time. i would do that with classic and os 10 simply switch back and forth or have two windows open (split screen) if that's the case that's what i want with windows. for work i use just one windows program w/IE that way i could do everything else in os x just switch views--seemless, on those weeks i don't need the windows program i'd just wouldn't boot it up with os x. my default would be osx then add windows when needed. this way i could get that pb i've always wanted. hopefully it comes with dual core, compact high density HD and dvd burner.

Well you'll definitely get a DVD burner, they're already standard across the entire PowerBook line.
post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by speed_the_collapse
Well you'll definitely get a DVD burner, they're already standard across the entire PowerBook line.

i'm looking forward to one, see i could upgrade my dell but hey i'd just have a dell. my wife won't let me upgrade her ibook g4... i don't have dvd burning capabilities in my home...yet. i really haven't had a need till recently. i might consider a stand alone unit for my upstairs g3 but put that money into the pb when they come out.....yum yum
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post #49 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
when you say "dual booting" do you mean have both os's running at the same time.

No. Dual booting (in general use) means booting into one of two (or more) OSs, exclusively. So you would boot into MacOS X *or* Windows, and it would be the only OS running.

What you want, and what we have with Classic in MacOS X, is more akin to layered OSs - one is being run as a process on top of another OS. Generally, this is done through use of an emulator, such as VirtualPC, or by hosting another OS of the same native architecture directly, as with Classic.

I'm hoping that we'll get, if not a WINE-esque solution where Windows apps are run on OS X, and never need to have Windows the OS booted, then at least a much better and faster VirtualPC environment since the instruction sets will be compatible.
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post #50 of 81
i just want ease of use, so i can get rid of my dell. but i want to seemlessly switch back and forth so i can only use the windows for the short intermitant times i need to and be primarily on mac os x. the windows program i use is layered on IE for getting images sent from the hospital (images of ct scans use IE with an imaging software) so basically i only use windows for IE and realtimeimage software oh yea the hospital requires a windows base cisco vpn to connect to their server.

I just want to get out of the dell-windows connection....please i want the pb or maybe ibook to be powerful enough to do idvd, be competitive for a few years, so i don't have to upgrade before the applecare quits.
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post #51 of 81
Umm...

Dual-booting will be simple. Setting up my Asus W3v for dual-booting linux and XP is so simple, and I'm sure it'll be the same way on the Mac. Why are people saying it's hard to install Windows? It's just as easy as installing the MacOS it just doesn't look as nice.

I for one will be dual-booting my Intel Powerbook because I hate macromedia apps on the mac and will need to run them in Windows. The rest I will be doing on the Mac side...then browser testing on both platforms...
post #52 of 81
I don't see why everybody thinks that the Intel Macs will have some special Intel chipset that is magically incompatible with Windows despite the fact that it's x86 and standards-compliant.
post #53 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Contonio
Umm...

Dual-booting will be simple. Setting up my Asus W3v for dual-booting linux and XP is so simple, and I'm sure it'll be the same way on the Mac. Why are people saying it's hard to install Windows? It's just as easy as installing the MacOS it just doesn't look as nice.

I for one will be dual-booting my Intel Powerbook because I hate macromedia apps on the mac and will need to run them in Windows. The rest I will be doing on the Mac side...then browser testing on both platforms...

now that's what i want to do...simple and easy to switch back and forth.
thanks
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post #54 of 81
Quote:
I was thinking about whether to compliment my 3-year old iBook with one of those super-cheap PC laptops currently on sale for the holiday season or wait until January and buy a new Mactel iBook, and kill two birds with one stone: replace my aging iBook, and by the same token get a henceforth Windows-capable computer.

If you buy a cuper-cheap PC laptop it'll break in a few months and you'll whining about how PCs suck and Macs are the best.
If you want to buy a PC, get either Fujitsu, Panasonic, Sony, or Toshiba. Then who knows, you may forget about the Mac.


As far running Windows on Mactels, you will be able to, no doubt. However, whether it will be plug-n-play or a hack job, nobody can you right now.
post #55 of 81
Anyone thought about the supprise purchase of Virtual PC by Microsoft a few years ago? With Microsoft now owning the code, and being a large Mac developer, I'm sure that MS has a good idea about the specifics of any final Mactel - anyone else thought about this?
post #56 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by dhunter
Anyone thought about the supprise purchase of Virtual PC by Microsoft a few years ago? With Microsoft now owning the code, and being a large Mac developer, I'm sure that MS has a good idea about the specifics of any final Mactel - anyone else thought about this?

Microsoft is the last one that wants more people using Mac OS X.
post #57 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by dhunter
Anyone thought about the supprise purchase of Virtual PC by Microsoft a few years ago?

It wasn't a surprise. Microsoft bought it for the virtualisation technology.
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post #58 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Telomar
It wasn't a surprise. Microsoft bought it for the virtualisation technology.

And (apparently) to help run XBox games on the XBox360.



Quote:
Microsoft is the last one that wants more people using Mac OS X.

Microsoft doesn't sell PCs so I doubt they care whether you are running Windows on a Mac, or on a PC. More to the point, if they can sell to the Mac market then they've increased their market share. Plus this would seem to motivate 3rd party developers to focus entirely on their Windows product development, which is the MS' advantage.
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post #59 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Microsoft doesn't sell PCs so I doubt they care whether you are running Windows on a Mac, or on a PC. More to the point, if they can sell to the Mac market then they've increased their market share. Plus this would seem to motivate 3rd party developers to focus entirely on their Windows product development, which is the MS' advantage.

True, but on the other side, Microsoft making it easy to use Windows on a Mac encourages PC users to switch to a Mac since most do want to switch. Does Microsoft really want to encourage PC to use Mac OS X?
post #60 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by iPeon
True, but on the other side, Microsoft making it easy to use Windows on a Mac encourages PC users to switch to a Mac since most do want to switch. Does Microsoft really want to encourage PC to use Mac OS X?

Well somebody is going to provide a VM, Microsoft may as well make the money (that being their perspective, not mine).
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post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Well somebody is going to provide a VM, Microsoft may as well make the money (that being their perspective, not mine).

Heh! Indeed. I do hope somebody else makes it. Knowing how Microsoft operates they are bound to make a mess of it.
post #62 of 81
Well, if the Mactels can't run Windows, I'm buying a PC.
post #63 of 81
my guess is that there are a lot of homes like this one in which one person (the SO) needs windows to access work (can do it with a Mac but they keep changing the firewall/access and their Mac support sucks etc etc) so dual boot machines look good (windows cost doesn't matter since her work has a site license)-- so we'll use OSX for everything (photos/music etc) except that pesky Citrix (no more syncing between Macs and Windows- yay!)
post #64 of 81
dual boot sucks... the best is just virtual PC as it is now, but 100x faster!

it's so easy! drag and drop between the two desktop, launch windows in 5sec, switch from one to the other very easily, etc...

that's all I want : a better VPC!
post #65 of 81
My iBook is the only laptop I have owned so all my Windows development is done on my desktop. If Windows can be installed on an Intel powered Mac then I will be getting a new laptop. I will wait until both Powerbooks and iBooks have Intel inside so I can see what features each model offers before I make the decision. If I had no intention to dual boot then the iBook would be a no-brainer, but I will be loading XP Pro, Office 2003, VS2005, IIS, and SQL Server Express so I might have to shell out the extra money for a PowerBook.

I have heard of viruses that can trash a partition making it unusable so if I got one of these while using Windows could it trash the partition that OS X is using? If only the partition Windows is installed on is affected then that is no big deal. I am not saying viruses are a minor inconvenience, if that, but what Windows user doesn't know about "ctrl-alt-del" and "reinstall"?
post #66 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by mania
dual booting has got to be quicker than waiting for VPC to fireup on a G4.


Try it on a G3.




(Set aside an entire afternoon)
post #67 of 81
I wonder if it will be possible to somehow configure a setup to allow a 'fast user switching' style, where one session is OS X and the other session Windows. That would be pretty cool, if running Windows inside of OS X isnt possible.
MacBook Pro 15" (Unibody)/2.4GHz Core 2 Duo/2 GB RAM/250GB HD/SuperDrive
iMac 20"/2 GHz Core 2 Duo/2 GB RAM/250 GB/SuperDrive
PowerBook G4 12"/1 GHz/1.25 GB RAM/60GB/Combo
iMac G3 333 MHz/96 MB...

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MacBook Pro 15" (Unibody)/2.4GHz Core 2 Duo/2 GB RAM/250GB HD/SuperDrive
iMac 20"/2 GHz Core 2 Duo/2 GB RAM/250 GB/SuperDrive
PowerBook G4 12"/1 GHz/1.25 GB RAM/60GB/Combo
iMac G3 333 MHz/96 MB...

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post #68 of 81
I figure by the time i can get a pb you guys will figure out the best solution (hope hope)
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post #69 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Well, if the Mactels can't run Windows, I'm buying a PC.

Later, dude. Have fun.
post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by belzebuth
dual boot sucks... the best is just virtual PC as it is now, but 100x faster!

it's so easy! drag and drop between the two desktop, launch windows in 5sec, switch from one to the other very easily, etc...

that's all I want : a better VPC!


See, I like this idea on the surface. I agree that it's real easy to switch back-n-forth between both environments. Windows starts up quicker & easier and generally works better on a Mac than on a pc. Go figure.

But (and it's a big BUT), 3D graphic acceleration still isn't supported - that leaves out any gaming (which is all I wanted out of it), because everything else I get from the Mac does me very nicely, thank you.

Gaming under VPC is fine, just as long as I'm not looking for anything more taxing than Dig Dug.
post #71 of 81
I run VMWARE virutal machine on my PC. Host OS is Windows XP and I have multiple guest OSes (Windows XP, Windows 2000, Redhat Fedore Core 2, Mandrake 10.1). From the speed point of view, the virtual machine is VERY efficient. Windows XP runs about 15-20% slower in VM mode than in native mode.
I would expect very similar results for Windows running in a VM inside OSX.
The main limitation of the VM at this point is the peripheral driver limitation inside the VM. Currenly 3D acceleration og graphics is slow and the things like USB2 are glitchy. However, this is purely a software limitation and I'm sure it will addressed if the VM technology enters mainstream use.
post #72 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by iPeon
True, but on the other side, Microsoft making it easy to use Windows on a Mac encourages PC users to switch to a Mac since most do want to switch. Does Microsoft really want to encourage PC to use Mac OS X?

I expect them to try it and see what happens and react in a way that's most to their advantage.
They must have all kinds of scenario's for all kinds of situations ready.
They hold all the cards. They're going to be the ones who are balancing out the prices and features of Windows, VPC, Office for Mac and Office for Windows.

Still, I think every party is going to benefit somehow if Windows runs on a Mac. The user for having the Windows option, Apple for selling more hardware and Microsoft for selling more software.
post #73 of 81
Quote:
[i]
But (and it's a big BUT), 3D graphic acceleration still isn't supported - that leaves out any gaming (which is all I wanted out of it), because everything else I get from the Mac does me very nicely, thank you.
[/B]

but it may be in a next VPC! When you imagine how complicated it should be to emulate a X86 on a PPC, it must be much easier to "emulate" a X86 on a X86!

what about the speed of Virtual PC for windows? can you play a game in 2000 while running XP?

And even if it was not possible, a dual boot mode for gaming is still OK... (and you could have OS X in emulation on your XP desktop!)
post #74 of 81
You guys are forgetting one major demograph: gamers.

I don't know how aquianted you all are with the Mac gaming scene, but it has recently descended into a black hole, with no major releases for the past few months besides WoW, and all games running pretty poorly on the Mac.

If Windows can be booted onto a MacTel, within a few months every Mac game porting studio will close it's doors and most gamers will be booting to Windows to run PC games. Native commerical Mac gaming will be completely obliterated.

This is a good thing if you ask me though, thanks to Gamespy and HAVOC we have had nthing good to play for literally years. I'm buying an Intel Mac for the sole purpose of running games on Windows.

Half Life 1&2
FEAR
System Shock 2
Deus Ex 2

... I can't wait.
post #75 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Yixian

I'm buying an Intel Mac for the sole purpose of running games on Windows.
... I can't wait.

So why don't you buy a PC?
post #76 of 81
Because I don't want to waste my money on poorly designed hardware and have to put up with working in the horrendous Windows interface. I will only use Windows for games, but always for games, and when I do I won't be interacting with the OS at all. Whenever I do anything else I'll be in OS X.
post #77 of 81
When mactels come out, it is likely that they will use EFI firmware. Windows XP cannot boot from EFI, but windows XP 64bit edition can. The Yonah processor is not 64bit, so my guess is that we will have to wait for either Merom (or Conroe) in a mac, or the release of Vista (which will be able to boot from EFI) to boot windows on a mactel... Wine or Virtual PC are likely going to work much sooner.
post #78 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Yixian
Because I don't want to waste my money on poorly designed hardware

Well then, what computer do you buy? I haven't seen many companies (including Apple) that can design and build hardware better than Intel themselves! If you find one, let me know.

You can certainly get hardware in a PC that is of design and build quality that Apple never dreamed of in years.

If you want to run games, buy a good PC and play your games.
post #79 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by skatman
Well then, what computer do you buy? I haven't seen many companies (including Apple) that can design and build hardware better than Intel themselves! If you find one, let me know.

You can certainly get hardware in a PC that is of design and build quality that Apple never dreamed of in years.

If you want to run games, buy a good PC and play your games.

Huh?

Intel builds chips. Dell, Sony, etc. are the ones who decide what hardware to use. To get a PC with has good hardware as the Mac you will pay the same if not more.

So... what are you talking about?
post #80 of 81
And also, I don't know about you, but I don't have the money or space for both a Mac and a game-capable PC.
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