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Bush authorises spying within US - Page 2

post #41 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
They have you guys defending torture and spying on citizens, for God's sake.

This goes back to Gitmo, and noise that was created, but never followed up on. We had a "Gulag" -- not just any gulag -- but a 'soviet style' gulag. But when the news came that, golly, Gitmo was well within the norm.........the rest really was silence. But even if it's imaginary torture I can't see defending it -- don't get me wrong, we may have to wait for the flight 177 torture videos to come out before all this becomes excruciatingly clear.

There has been a great deal of these oddly hyperbolic Mooreish assaults on the administration -- now we are asked to believe that "Bush is Hilter" for yet another odd reason -- It's not the reasons, but it's that I'm being asked to believe that Bush is Hitler, onnnne moooore tiiiiiiime.

Not "I disagree with the president"

Not "I think he's wrong"

Not "I'd do it differently" (especially this one -- and it's the dead giveaway)

Here is what we know on this "spying" business: both House and Senate people who are in the loop of Intelligence oversight have been briefed and have been briefed for years, and the normal channels have been used -- as designed, and the whole business has been 'heavily lawyered' as well.

Now that isn't quite as simple as 'Bush is Hitler', but when national security is breached to make the point, I really have to wonder who is making these charges.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #42 of 244
dmz, the Congress is just about to pass an anti-torture bill that the president had fought against. Gitmo was not within the norm, or the whole debate over torture wouldn't have resulted in a Republican-controlled Congress laying the smack down on Bush over it. And of course there is still plenty of debate over whether people can be declared enemy combatants or held indefinitely - much of this is still going through the courts. I'm not sure what your test of "within the norm" is.

Please dmz, don't defend this spying on Americans. None of the Republicans I've seen talk about this have defended this. I worry about what it does to a person to defend this stuff. You don't have to think that everything Bush does must be right. Really. You can vote for him, but you don't have to treat him as infallible. At least say you'll wait until they provide their legal justification for this, which they've yet to do. But don't defend it yet. I worry about your immortal soul when you start accepting this stuff. Seriously.
post #43 of 244
I would be remiss if I didn't point out, dmz, that you're ignoring the claims I (and others) are making and replacing them with claims you seem to wish we were making.

This administration has put its supporters in a position to defend torture and spying on American citizens. It really makes you wonder:

Who would Jesus torture? Who would Jesus spy on?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #44 of 244
If I were Jesus I'd totally spy on Keira Knightley. Yum.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #45 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
dmz, the Congress is just about to pass an anti-torture bill that the president had fought against. Gitmo was not within the norm, or the whole debate over torture wouldn't have resulted in a Republican-controlled Congress laying the smack down on Bush over it. And of course there is still plenty of debate over whether people can be declared enemy combatants or held indefinitely - much of this is still going through the courts. I'm not sure what your test of "within the norm" is.

Please dmz, don't defend this spying on Americans. None of the Republicans I've seen talk about this have defended this. I worry about what it does to a person to defend this stuff. You don't have to think that everything Bush does must be right. Really. You can vote for him, but you don't have to treat him as infallible. At least say you'll wait until they provide their legal justification for this, which they've yet to do. But don't defend it yet. I worry about your immortal soul when you start accepting this stuff. Seriously.

hmmm....I'm fascinated as to why you aren't connecting with the concept of congressional oversight.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #46 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
hmmm....I'm fascinated as to why you aren't connecting with the concept of congressional oversight.

Harumph. As I've said repeatedly, there was no congressional oversight. A few members of Congress were informed, at least one of them protested the actions, but it was illegal for those who were informed to say anything to anyone else. That is not oversight.

But even that's really avoiding the issue. Let's say Congress totally thought it was cool. Even then, so-the-fuck-what? That just means two branches of our government conspired to subvert our laws.

Why, dmz. What do you have to defend everything this government does? How far could they go so that you might stop and say "hmm, that might not be right." How far? Torture is OK. War on false pretenses OK. Spying on American citizens without warrant despite the law saying they need a warrant - OK. What on earth could they do that you wouldn't get on AI and defend them?
post #47 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I would be remiss if I didn't point out, dmz, that you're ignoring the claims I (and others) are making and replacing them with claims you seem to wish we were making.

This administration has put its supporters in a position to defend torture and spying on American citizens. It really makes you wonder:

Who would Jesus torture? Who would Jesus spy on?

I would echo here what I replied to BRussell -- you seem to be exuding a need to reduce the government to one man, or maybe one 'suspect ideology' or 'arch-evil' construct. But, at the same time, we're asked to accept that all mechanisms to prevent what you're proposing have somehow been subverted by this same or arch-evil person.

I'd propose this: since you're proposing that I react to claims that 'torture' is routine, and that the administration supports this -- why not provide examples of this? It would serve to orient you to the realities of whether torture is routine, condoned, etc. The same would go for the 'spying' hyperbole, and it would help to inform the discussion in general.

The problem with asking 'Who would Jesus torture?' or ' Who would Jesus spy on?' is the that before we can get to those questions we have to ask 'who was Jesus', 'what did he stand for', etc,. I think, given your level of education, you could really move forward on this, and give us a proactive and multicultural canvass of this question that would make us all more sensitive to Christian tradition -- since our diversity is our strength.

Who would Jesus spy on? Who would He torture?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #48 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
...there was no congressional oversight

considering this news event resulted from a breach in national security, I'd have to question that statement -- unless you are privy to the interworkings of national security (?)

Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
.Why, dmz. What do you have to defend everything this government does?

bother, now I 'defend everything this government does'? ......wait, there was a line of reasoning around here somewhere..........

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #49 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
you seem to be exuding a need to reduce the government to one man, or maybe one 'suspect ideology' or 'arch-evil' construct.

If you look back at what I've written, I believe you'll find that you're "exuding" (yuck) a need to see me as needing to reduce the gummit to one man, or maybe one "suspect ideology" or "arch-evil" construct.

I know that would make what you want me to have argued much easier to deal with, but the simple fact remains that I made no such argument.

To which I should add: I *do* actually hold believe much of this administration to be part and parcel of a "suspect ideology." However, it is one that is both legitimate (you'll find Straussians in political science departments all over the US) and disturbingly appealing to someone like me.

Quote:
But, at the same time, we're asked to accept that all mechanisms to prevent what you're proposing have somehow been subverted by this same or arch-evil person.

That would be cool if I understood it. I don't. What I do understand of what you're saying here prompts me to ask you whether you might entertain the notion that you are one of those preventive mechanisms that has been subverted.

Quote:
I'd propose this: since you're proposing that I react to claims that 'torture' is routine, and that the administration supports this -- why not provide examples of this? It would serve to orient you to the realities of whether torture is routine, condoned, etc. The same would go for the 'spying' hyperbole, and it would help to inform the discussion in general.

I'd propose that YOU pay better attention and deal with the arguments I've made and not the ones you wish I'd made. No one has talked about whether anything is routine. The fact of the matter is that this administration has fought an anti-torture bill. You can only defend this administration by defending torture. Who cares if spying on US citizens is routine? The fact of the matter is that this administration has done it and is now defending it.

Quote:
The problem with asking 'Who would Jesus torture?' or ' Who would Jesus spy on?' is the that before we can get to those questions we have to ask 'who was Jesus', 'what did he stand for', etc,.

Bah. I made a joke and now you're trying to use it to change the subject to something you're more comfortable with.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #50 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
If I were Jesus I'd totally spy on Keira Knightley. Yum.

While I like the idea that she seems awfully normal, she's really, really skinny.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #51 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
While I like the idea that she seems awfully normal, she's really, really skinny.

Eh, some girls can pull that off.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #52 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
No one has talked about whether anything is routine.

This seemed to indicate otherwise:
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
* Invading a sovereign nation unprovoked? Check.
* Torture? Check.
* Videotaping/photographing torture? Check.
* Making fun of veterans and wounded soldiers? Check.
* Spying on American citizens without warrants? Check.
* Cronyism? Check.
* Cronyism with devastating consequences? Check.

Let's take a look at the 'torture', and the 'Videotaping/photographing torture' bullets. It should be a straightforward exercise to provide some examples of what you're citing. You've brought up torture with the same rapidity that BRusell insists that 'there was no oversight' of the 'spying on American citizens'. So, how about some examples -- BRussell apparently has sources in the NSA, or perhaps a mole or two on the SIC, how about a little help here?

(if I'm going to 'defend torture' I need to know what I'm defending)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #53 of 244
So what happened in Abu Ghraib wasn´t torture?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #54 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
So what happened in Abu Ghraib wasn´t torture?

Apparently, it was enough to get the perpetrators convicted of their crime.

The a problem here, is that the good doctor has taken it upon himself to project the actions of criminals at Abu Ghraib onto the president.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #55 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Apparently, it was enough to get the perpetrators convicted of their crime.

The a problem here, is that the good doctor has taken it upon himself to project the actions of criminals at Abu Ghraib onto the president.

The secretary of defence took responsibility for everything that happened in Abu Ghraib and he was directly appointed by the president.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #56 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
The vice president took responsibility for everything that happened in Abu Ghraib and he was directly appointed by the president.

...taking responsibilty doesn't make this policy, though.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #57 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
...taking responsibilty doesn't make this policy, though.

Did midwinter say it is? Results of indirect actions falls back on the administration. Just like the death of workers falls back on the CEO if he ordered safety measures ignored on his factory.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #58 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Did midwinter say it is? Results of indirect actions falls back on the administration. Just like the death of workers falls back on the CEO if he ordered safety measures ignored on his factory.

I think, when he made this post:
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
* Invading a sovereign nation unprovoked? Check.
* Torture? Check.
* Videotaping/photographing torture? Check.
* Making fun of veterans and wounded soldiers? Check.
* Spying on American citizens without warrants? Check.
* Cronyism? Check.
* Cronyism with devastating consequences? Check.

He has mixed some obvious criminal aberrations, with 'Spying on American citizens without warrants', which, if the U.S. attorney general is to be taken seriously, is legal (as far as it has gone).

As for 'taking responsibility' goes, it is absolutely necessary -- but it resulted in criminal prosecutions, so I don't really know what else to add to that.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #59 of 244
Well, the fat's in the fire now : http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/...nsa/index.html


The fact that he's on tv now trying to defend it means he knows it is.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #60 of 244
dmz: As your post show midwinter didn´t claim it was the policy of the government. The bullets in his post are all consequenses of a neglient policy, consequences that is the responsibility of the government and I am sure that is what he meant.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #61 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Well, the fat's in the fire now : http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/...nsa/index.html


The fact that he's on tv now trying to defend it means he knows it is.

What a bullshit headline. It wasn't Democrats who called for investigation, it was Republicans and Democrats. Democrats couldn't have hearings unless Republicans agreed.
post #62 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
considering this news event resulted from a breach in national security, I'd have to question that statement -- unless you are privy to the interworkings of national security (?)

Come on, this is just ridiculous. Congress has oversight through hearings. There weren't any hearings, and no one has suggested that. Bush said he told a few members of congress. You're the only one suggesting there was "congressional oversight."
Quote:
bother, now I 'defend everything this government does'? ......wait, there was a line of reasoning around here somewhere..........

The fact that you're defending this when other Republicans are calling for an investigation suggests to me that there's nothing you won't defend.

Anyway, I'm off for vacation. Be good dmz. Have some principles. You'll feel better about yourself.
post #63 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
dmz: As your post show midwinter didn´t claim it was the policy of the government. The bullets in his post are all consequenses of a neglient policy, consequences that is the responsibility of the government and I am sure that is what he meant.

I guess I'm spoiled -- It's just that when the attorney general or president explains it, he does such a better job than midwinters incisive critique -- there is some attention paid to the realties of oversight, which members of congress can attest to, law cited etc. Usually when criticizing policy, it helps to explain (in this case especially) why that policy is illegal, not simply group a policy you don't care for in with violent criminal behavior.

To be fair, I'm sure midwinter can clear this up.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #64 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
What a bullshit headline. It wasn't Democrats who called for investigation, it was Republicans and Democrats. Democrats couldn't have hearings unless Republicans agreed.


From the article however :

" Top Republicans also called for hearings.

"We have to resolve the issue to show Americans we are nation of law not outcomes," Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said on CBS' "Face The Nation." "I would like to see the intelligence committee look into it."

"There is a theme here that is a bit disturbing," the Judiciary Committee member said.

"If you allow him [Bush] to make findings, he becomes the court. You can't allow him or others to play the role of the court because then others adopt that model when they hold our troops."

Sen. John McCain also said that if the matter goes to a congressional panel that the intelligence community should investigate.

"You've got to be very careful about putting into the open situation" sensitive information "that would be helpful to al Qaeda," he said.

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, told "CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" there were many questions but cautioned against politicizing the matter.

"I'd like to inquire why they didn't go to the Federal Intelligence Security Act," [FISA] which sets up a special court to authorize national security wiretaps," the senator said. "That's a real question they have to answer."
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #65 of 244
The enemy is evil, persistent and resilient. We must use the tools we have to fight this enemy. The enemy is also living within our boundaries. The enemy is fund raising in our cities. We must monitor those fitting the profile of the enemy. We have no choice. The safety of the American people is at stake.
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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post #66 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Come on, this is just ridiculous. Congress has oversight through hearings. There weren't any hearings, and no one has suggested that. Bush said he told a few members of congress. You're the only one suggesting there was "congressional oversight."

Unless I've gone funny in the head (it could happen), that's what the House and Senate intelligence committees are there for; more than just hearings.

The AJ has weighed in:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10530046/

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #67 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
To be fair, I'm sure midwinter can clear this up.

Oh, it's all so confusing isn't it?! Its just so complex! A mortal man like me cannot possibly be expected to make any sense of it! Best to just trust the leader.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #68 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Oh, it's all so confusing isn't it?! Its just so complex! A mortal man like me cannot possibly be expected to make any sense of it! Best to just trust the leader.

I think you should be a cooperative little bunny, and let me have your brain.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #69 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
The enemy is evil, persistent and resilient. We must use the tools we have to fight this enemy. The enemy is also living within our boundaries. The enemy is fund raising in our cities. We must monitor those fitting the profile of the enemy. We have no choice. The safety of the American people is at stake.


And in this case guess who the enemy's name could be?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #70 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
And in this case guess who the enemy's name could be?

How naive are you people? Political correctness step aside! We are trying to survive as a people and as a culture. Our country is overrun by immigrants and infidels let into this country by previous sloppiness. We must examine those fitting the profile of the enemy. It is not that complicated.
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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post #71 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
No problem at all with this. All Mosques should be observed, as should all prominent Muslims and perhaps most Muslims living in the US. We must know where they get their money and what they do with it. This is very important in the battle against terrorist extremists. It may also be wise to observe the activities of those on he far left, particularity the Hollywood elites.

Is being a paranoid racist fun?
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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post #72 of 244
America is beset by an insidious enemy. We have, living among us, people who despise our freedoms, who would gladly see our liberties compromised and curtailed in the name of a harsh and irrational ideology.

People like Moe from Texas. Quite simply traitors.

Some of them are stupid and credulous and weak and so desperately need a strong leader to feel safe that they would happily trade the rule of law for the rule of the despot. They have no right to call themselves Americans.

Some of them are cynical and manipulative and want to see the unquestioned power of "their" side enshrined as national policy and don't care how much damage is done in the process. They have no right to call themselves Americans.

Some of them are mindlessly belligerent and believe that American interests are best served when she acts indiscriminately, shooting first and asking question later, taking no heed of laws or constraints of any kind. These people are like angry children, lashing out at the word "no" as an intolerable attack on their personhood. These people have no right to call themselves Americans.

All of them are, at heart, fearful and tremulous, seeing enemies everywhere and regarding the very foundations of our "freedoms" as impediments to, rather then the vehicle of, our well-being. Real freedom is too complicated, the iron hand will ease our burden.

In this, they are most assuredly traitors. They despise our freedoms as a "security risk". They would rather feel "safe" in an autocracy then suffer the uncertainties of democracy.

Traitors. Quislings. Children. Cowards. Freedom haters.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #73 of 244
In times like these we must trade some civil liberties for civil defense. The main responsibility of the Gov is to protect the citizens of the nation. The President must do everything within the law (and he is within the law) to keep Americans safe.
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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post #74 of 244
Indeed, Moe. That was my favorite part in Revenge of the Sith.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #75 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
In times like these we must trade some civil liberties for civil defense. The main responsibility of the Gov is to protect the citizens of the nation. The President must do everything within the law (and he is within the law) to keep Americans safe.

You are a fucking coward.
meh
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meh
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post #76 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
In times like these we must trade some civil liberties for civil defense. The main responsibility of the Gov is to protect the citizens of the nation. The President must do everything within the law (and he is within the law) to keep Americans safe.

And again: What are we really defending here? Freedom? What was it people said? "They attacked us because they hate our freedom"?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #77 of 244
Curiously a human being has only a 1 in about 60,000,000 chance to be killed in a terrorist act even with 9/11. You have a better chance of winning the lottery.
Our super brilliant president should be evesdropping on Ford engineers building cars that kill 265 in every 1,000,000 or Phillip Morris making products killing millions slowly and painfully.
We need protection from stupidity, nothing else.

Duhhh.
post #78 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You are a fucking coward.

No need to be so reserved, why don't you tell us what you really think?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #79 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
And again: What are we really defending here? Freedom? What was it people said? "They attacked us because they hate our freedom"?

We are protecting our lives Anders.
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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post #80 of 244
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You are a fucking coward.

Name-calling and obscenities. My goodness.
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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