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Walling off Mexico

post #1 of 24
12/22/05 at 12:16pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051221/...co_border_wall

The Mexican government, angered by a U.S. proposal to extend a wall along the border to keep out migrants, pledged Tuesday to block the plan and organize an international campaign against it. . . .Mexico is not going to bear, it is not going to permit, and it will not allow a stupid thing like this wall."

Opinions?
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post #2 of 24
12/22/05 at 12:22pm
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I don't understand the intense reaction in the article - the wall is a good idea.

Having an uncontrolled border that millions of people sneak through is a security risk. Its not like we are taking away legal routes between the two countries. Anyone who complains is basically saying "I have been breaking the law, and want to continue doing so" - this is entitlement at its worst.

I am against making illegal immegration a felony, though, our jails are too full already due to our stupid drug laws.
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post #3 of 24
12/22/05 at 12:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I don't understand the intense reaction in the article - the wall is a good idea.

Having an uncontrolled border that millions of people sneak through is a security risk. Its not like we are taking away legal routes between the two countries. Anyone who complains is basically saying "I have been breaking the law, and want to continue doing so" - this is entitlement at its worst.

I am against making illegal immegration a felony, though, our jails are too full already due to our stupid drug laws.

Interesting.
But why not attack the problems instead of merely posing?
If security is the "real" reason, why not wall off Canada? Isn't that unwalled border even bigger? Any terrorist could get in far more easily there.
If entitlements are the problem, then lets fix the law. (BTW people who have "already" broken the law (come over) don't want to continue.)
If taking Am jobs for lower pay is the problem, then enforce the laws we have against employers. Take it as seriously as RICO. It would still cost less than the wall-financially and morally.

The wall won't even cut down illegal immigration. I don't think the politicians could live without it any way. All it will be is a pacifier for the conservatives.

I know the strain it causes. But, they come here for jobs. That means someone is hiring them.

Just like drugs: if there wasn't such an eager market here, they wouldn't be flooding this way.

It is easy to pick on our neighbors, harder to work with them.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #4 of 24
12/22/05 at 12:46pm
  • e1618978
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How do you know that the wall won't cut down illegal immegration? Obviously it will have an effect - otherwise all those people in your article would not be whining so hard.

Canada is a cooperative country - we both participate in border patrol, and they also have strong immegration control into Canada from other countries, so there is much less risk of somebody sneaking into the US via Canada than via Mexico.

The Mexican government encourages people to come to the US illegally - they are a very bad neighbor in that respect, unlike Canada.

I also agree with the idea of huge penalties for businesses that hire illegals - if that was what you meant about fixing the root cause.

I think that immegrants are the engine of our economic growth, and I want it to continue - I just don't want it to bypass the immegration and customs agents by sneaking through the desert.
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post #5 of 24
12/22/05 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
How do you know that the wall won't cut down illegal immegration? Obviously it will have an effect - otherwise all those people in your article would not be whining so hard.

That's not what I hear them "whining" about.

I don't like laws being broken. I don't like people living here illegally.

I also see the incredible results of disenfranchising people rather than helping them.

We are inviting even more violence.

There has to be something better than building a wall and defending it. We're kinda running so thin with all of our defending now, we don't even have the resources to help our own people.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #6 of 24
12/22/05 at 1:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Canada is a cooperative country - we both participate in border patrol, and they also have strong immegration control into Canada from other countries, so there is much less risk of somebody sneaking into the US via Canada than via Mexico.

Really? I am getting a little old and forgetful, but I thought some of the 911 crew got in through Canada, not Mexico. And several of them were, in fact, legal.

Of course, the second biggest politically-motivated violent terrorist attack in US history (OK) came from someone from neither Canada nor Mexico.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #7 of 24
12/22/05 at 1:08pm
Our immigration policy is a mess. We pretend we don't want folks to sneak in, but we really do. Very plain and simple, we want them to work. What really gets me is how hard we make it for folks who follow the rules. I have a friend from China who had a baby. Her mother was not allowed to come here because the US was afraid she would stay here and "become a burden on the American people". Bahh
Moe has left the building
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post #8 of 24
12/22/05 at 1:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Our immigration policy is a mess. We pretend we don't want folks to sneak in, but we really do. Very plain and simple, we want them to work. What really gets me is how hard we make it for folks who follow the rules. I have a friend from China who had a baby. Her mother was not allowed to come here because the US was afraid she would stay here and "become a burden on the American people". Bahh

Maybe there is Moe to Moe.

I agree completely. Let's spend the money a wall would cost and decide what is our "real" policy.

Then let's make the penalties so severe that both the market and the supply of illegal immigration dry up.

Let's spend the money on programs that promote responsible immigration. I, frankly, think we need it!
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #9 of 24
12/22/05 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I don't understand the intense reaction in the article - the wall is a good idea

Would it help avoid illegal immigration issue? Yes, almost certainly. But walls do have a big image problem (Berlin Wall, Iron Curtain etc etc).

I don't buy the comparison with Canada. The reason to build a barrier along the US-Mex border is to prevent ECONOMIC migrants (which doesn't apply to Canada). It's hard to see much of a terrorist angle.
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post #10 of 24
12/22/05 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Triestino
It's hard to see much of a terrorist angle.

Agree completely. Note that I was replying that "if" security "were" the issue, why not wall off Canada.

I frankly think it is an empty issue that shamefully plays on our 911 fears.

The issue is economics as you say. Not just the jobs. The responsibility of a caring society to try to take care of these families and educate their children once they get here.

We are torn between our caring and our resources. The anger that is coming out is often misdirected, but nonetheless real.

This is a problem that needs fixing.

I don't think the problem is Mexico. I think the problem is American politicians who don't want to take a stand or address the problem because they need every vote they can get.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #11 of 24
12/22/05 at 2:51pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
We have to be able to control our borders, nothing said so far in this thread so far seems like a valid reason to not build the wall.

Actually I thought that there was already a barbed wire fence about 20' tall, at least for part of the border - I saw it near El Paso.

If the people complaining about the wall do not want to continue sneaking through the desert to get here, then why are they complaining at all? They must be feeling entitled to unchecked access to the US, and don't want to give up that "right".

Going through a legal checkpoint does not seem like too much to ask. Building a wall does not disenfranchise people, it just helps to prevent them from breaking the law (when you put a robber in jail, are you disenfranchising him? Of course not).

Regarding the comparison to the Berlin wall, this is just the oposite - the USSR put the wall in place to stop people from leaving. If the Mexican government wanted to avoid the stigma of a wall, they shouldn't have printed helpful pamplets on how to sneak into the US.

Mike0919: Canada did not provide 9/11 access, that is a myth
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Apr8.html
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post #12 of 24
12/22/05 at 3:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Mike0919: Canada did not provide 9/11 access, that is a myth

My bad. I usually check sources more carefully. No excuse.

My point was badly made that Mexico didn't allow them in for all of the "lack of security."

At the risk for not being able to quote right now, recently watched news footage of the flood of immigrants over, under, and through the fence. It apparently is no real deterent. I don't think a wall will be either unless we build a real Berlin wall or prison wall with armed guards every 300 ft.

Good fences may make good neighbors, but manned walls and machine guns?

Maybe they are whining , "Look, you want us there, and you want our drugs. You pay big money for both. Why kills us while we are trying to fill your order?"

Punish the market. Raise the penalties. Build a levy instead of a wall.

We can't take care of what we have on our plate right now.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #13 of 24
12/22/05 at 3:17pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike0919
Punish the market. Raise the penalties. Build a levy instead of a wall.

Do both.

A wall will make it much easier for the current border guards to do their job, particularly if you combine it with sensors that tell them where people are.

We already have people trying to catch illegals, running around with night goggles and such (my mother's husband's son does this for a living in Arizona), we should make their jobs as easy as possible.

Answer these questions:

1. Should we control immegration via legislation

2. Should we try to enforce immegration laws

If you answered yes to both questions - the wall seems a no-brainer to me. Even if we take away the incentive by cracking down on employers, we still should get the chance to screen each and every incoming immegrant.
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post #14 of 24
12/22/05 at 7:55pm
The President of Mexico shouldn't have any say in U.S. border policy, and he is free to shut up as far as I am concerned and spend a bit more time trying to figure out how to improve conditions in his own country and stop whining about what the U.S. does with its borders.

Secondly, I'm not altogether sure that the U.S. shouldn't just tear the fences/walls down and repeal the immigration restrictions.
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post #15 of 24
12/22/05 at 8:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The President of Mexico shouldn't have any say in U.S. border policy, and he is free to shut up as far as I am concerned and spend a bit more time trying to figure out how to improve conditions in his own country and stop whining about what the U.S. does with its borders.

Secondly, I'm not altogether sure that the U.S. shouldn't just tear the fences/walls down and repeal the immigration restrictions.

I don't entirely disagree with the first part, but a border is, by definition, between two countries. There is no US border. There is a US/Mexico border and a US/Canada border.

We might learn a lesson that it is better to get along with the rest of the world instead of just p===ing everyone off.

You don't have to give up either sovereignty or dignity to cooperate.

The second part would need some explanation for me.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #16 of 24
12/22/05 at 8:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike0919
I don't entirely disagree with the first part, but a border is, by definition, between two countries. There is no US border. There is a US/Mexico border and a US/Canada border.

I understand this, and...

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike0919
We might learn a lesson that it is better to get along with the rest of the world instead of just p===ing everyone off.

You don't have to give up either sovereignty or dignity to cooperate.

...agree with this. But there is a right way and a wrong way for the Mexican President to do this. Publicly whining and/or chastising the U.S. seems the wrong way.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike0919
The second part would need some explanation for me.

We are spending so much time, energy and money on this. In the past our borders have been wide open. Immigration restrictions are a relatively recent development in our nation's history. If we want free trade, then it seems that keeping our borders open and allowing this immigration (which appears destined to happen anyway) to happen safely and legally is probably overall a big win for everyone.
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post #17 of 24
12/22/05 at 8:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
. . . We are spending so much time, energy and money on this. In the past our borders have been wide open. Immigration restrictions are a relatively recent development in our nation's history. If we want free trade, then it seems that keeping our borders open and allowing this immigration (which appears destined to happen anyway) to happen safely and legally is probably overall a big win for everyone.

Wow! That was what I hoped you meant, but I was afraid of falling into a trap.

If we took a fraction of the money of putting up and defending a wall and took some of that empty space along the border to set up training centers, we could invite Mexican immigrants to sign up.

A good education/work program could have them functional in English in less than two years and help them find legal jobs.

Their productivity raises our national standard of living and helps provide jobs for "our" people as well.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."-Einstein
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post #18 of 24
12/22/05 at 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Our immigration policy is a mess. We pretend we don't want folks to sneak in, but we really do. Very plain and simple, we want them to work. What really gets me is how hard we make it for folks who follow the rules. I have a friend from China who had a baby. Her mother was not allowed to come here because the US was afraid she would stay here and "become a burden on the American people". Bahh

What day is this? I actually have to agree with you. Mark your calendar

I'm a bit weird I on this, but one of my first thoughts about the wall is what environmental impact would having a wall have. I can see all kinds of migratory habits running into a fence.
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post #19 of 24
12/23/05 at 12:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
We are spending so much time, energy and money on this. In the past our borders have been wide open. Immigration restrictions are a relatively recent development in our nation's history. If we want free trade, then it seems that keeping our borders open and allowing this immigration (which appears destined to happen anyway) to happen safely and legally is probably overall a big win for everyone.

Uncontrolled immigration would give rise to huge political and cultural issues. Do bear in mind that the US (like most other "western" countries) is dominated politically and commercially (ie in boardrooms) by a white elite which doesn't well reflect the ethnic diversity of the country. Largescale unfettered immigration would sit ill with that. And given income differences betweeen the US and Mexico, you would see VAST immigration from Mexico. The impact on local economies in border areas would be huge.

To my mind, it looks politically unworkable and economically unattractive.
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post #20 of 24
12/23/05 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally posted by Triestino
Uncontrolled immigration would give rise to huge political and cultural issues.

As opposed to what we have now?

Quote:
Originally posted by Triestino
To my mind, it looks politically unworkable and economically unattractive.

Maybe. Didn't say it would happen politically. But for a nation that supposedly believes in free markets (we really don't) then opening it up would be a show of "faith" in that model. What would likely happen (longer term) is that incomes would stablize (and rise) on both sides of the border. But, yes there would be some short-term setbacks and disruptions.
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post #21 of 24
12/23/05 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
As opposed to what we have now?

You aren't seriously suggesting, I think, that immigration is uncontrolled now. It's just badly managed meaning many thousands of Mexicans enter the US illegally. MILLIONS would come if it were simply a question of walking across unopposed.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
What would likely happen (longer term) is that incomes would stablize (and rise) on both sides of the border. But, yes there would be some short-term setbacks and disruptions.

There would be huge unemployment on the US side as business used cheap Mexican labor. There would be HUGE local resentment and incresed ethnic tension. I'm not sure those would be mere bumps in the road.

Do bear in mind that when Poland joined the EU (and Poland is much closer culturally and economically to Germany than Mexico is to the US), thereby permitting free travel, there were carry over provisions lasting up to 7 years to prevent Poles simply migrating to Germany and displacing German workers by undercutting their wages.
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post #22 of 24
12/23/05 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by Triestino
You aren't seriously suggesting, I think, that immigration is uncontrolled now.

Ummm...no...I was referring to the "huge political and cultural issues" part of your statement.

Quote:
Originally posted by Triestino
There would be huge unemployment on the US side as business used cheap Mexican labor.

Possibly. You need to realize that the first jobs would be the unskilled variety. And there is still some requirement for service providers (i.e., cashiers at Wal-Mart and what-not) to speak english. It might not happen as quickly or dramatically as you suggest.

I'm mostly saying that:

a) the immigration is happening anyway, and we appear to (generally) want it to (out fear of paying $3 for oranges...or some equally stupid economic fear-mongering that is trotted out as an excuse to exploit Mexican laborers)

b) The way it happens now raises serious exploitation and life/death safety issues

c) Why not just make it "above board"? Why should we keep pretending we can do anything to stop it? Why continue to create high risk scenarios for people that simply want to make a better life for their families?

Immigrants have always come to this country (until relatively recently) freely and they have almost always improved their stage in life and added to the economic growth and prosperity of this nation and (to some extent) their home nation as they funnel $ back to relatives unable to get here.
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post #23 of 24
12/24/05 at 10:08am
An average of some 3000 people per day enter the US illegally across the Mexican border, undetected. If the Al Qaeda/Islamic 'terrorism threat' was as real as is being force-fed to Americans, then by rights 'the terrorists' would be entering the country the easy way, ie through Mexico, undetected, in droves. If so many ordinary poor and working class Mexican civilians can cross the border so easily, it should be no surprise that well-funded middle eastern people with paramilitary training would also choose this easy route. By all official reasoning, the US should be literally crawling with 'al qaeda' personnel. Since (an) aim of 'al qaeda' is to be at constant war with the west and its values, should not we therefore expect a constant/ongoing series of attacks on 'soft targets' such as shopping malls, theaters, sports stadiums etc. and other public places where there is little or no security, just as happened in the UK from the 1970s to the 1990s when there was a genuine terrorist campaign on an almost daily basis by a real organization (the Provisional IRA), using real people, real bombs, real ammunition, on real targets?

I'm still calling BS.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #24 of 24
12/24/05 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike0919
Wow! That was what I hoped you meant, but I was afraid of falling into a trap.

If we took a fraction of the money of putting up and defending a wall and took some of that empty space along the border to set up training centers, we could invite Mexican immigrants to sign up.

A good education/work program could have them functional in English in less than two years and help them find legal jobs.

Their productivity raises our national standard of living and helps provide jobs for "our" people as well.

What? Where did you come up with that? Now we're going to start spending US tax dollars on training illegal immigrants?

The solution is three-fold. First we have to make it easier for people to immigrate legally. The process is so long and convoluted, there might as well not even be a process at all. Second, we need to aggressively pursue employers who hire illegals. Third, we need a tough enforcement policy, complete with a wall. As soon as someone is found to be here illegally, we give them a choice: Become legal, or leave...permanently.

We also need to have the federal government overule ridiculous local and state laws and procedures relative to this issue. Some localities have laws that say a police officer cannot ask about someone's legal status in a routine traffic stop. Some states want to give driver's licenses to illegals. Some even want to make them eligible for taxpayer funded colleges. This must end.
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