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Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (2006)

post #1 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Looks like Blu-Ray backers at CES are gettin it on! Maybe we'll get Blu-Ray drives in Macintels after all? Who knows, but so far 2006 is shaping up to be very exciting...

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4241959&EDATE=

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/...75&newsLang=en

http://www.ccnmatthews.com/news/rele...tionFor=574032
post #2 of 2106
I'm sure that when the studios began planning this rollout, they thought the prospect of "Stealth" or "Aeon Flux" in high-def would be a lot more enticing than it is now.
post #3 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
I'm sure that when the studios began planning this rollout, they thought the prospect of "Stealth" or "Aeon Flux" in high-def would be a lot more enticing than it is now.

We should know more tomorrow. The BDA (Blu-Ray Disc Association) comprised of more than 150 companies, will make announcements at CES 2006 tomorrow, January 5th.

Personally, I'm looking forward to what Warner Bros. has to announce. I'm certainly looking forward to the Matrix in High-Def 1080P quality. We shall see...

Heck maybe we'll have a suprise Mac Mini coupled with a Blu-Ray drive Tivo type device in the week to follow at MacWorld. That would get me buying real quick, that is, if the price is right.
post #4 of 2106
Marzetta7 just the guy I was looking forward to pounding on today <all in fun buddy >

$499 HD DVD players. Game over! Bwahahahahaahaha

Toshiba's press release

Toshiba America Consumer Products, L.L.C. ("Toshiba") unveiled today the market launch details for its line-up of the first High Definition DVD players for the U.S. market. The new HD DVD players, models HD-XA1 and HD-A1, will take advantage of the superior capabilities of the HD DVD format, including outstanding visual quality supported by leading-edge video compression technologies, the high resolution audio specifications and the capability for enhanced functionality including, Advanced Navigation, also referred to as "iHD."

To coincide with the rapid market penetration of HDTV devices in U.S. households, Toshiba's new HD DVD models will offer consumers a feature rich, high definition media format for the home, building upon the great features of today's DVD one of the most successful A/V products ever. Both the HD-XA1 and the HD-A1 will start shipping to retailers in March, 2006.

"As a leader in home entertainment and a pioneer in DVD technology, we are very excited to introduce our first HD DVD players for U.S. consumers," said Jodi Sally, Vice President of Marketing, Toshiba America Consumer Products Digital A/V Group. "With the support of some of the hottest films, we can confidently say that Toshiba's HD DVD players will come to market with important industry backing in time to meet the HDTV transition."

An Evolution in Video Home Entertainment and a Revolution in Technology
As a logical evolution of the DVD market to high definition, the HD-XA1 and HD-A1 have backward compatibility, allowing users to continue to enjoy their libraries of current DVD and CD software*. Supporting the leading-edge efficient video compression standards of MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1, as well as MPEG2, both models will utilize the new video decoder chip developed by Broadcom. To meet the latest advancements in Audio/Video interfaces, both models connect to HDTV sets via a High Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI). HDMI is the first industry-supported all digital A/V connection providing the transmission of uncompressed digital video and multi-channel audio on a single cable. The new HD DVD players will output copy-protected HD content through the HDMI interface in the native format of the HD DVD disc content of either 720p or 1080i. Through the HDMI interface, standard definition DVDs can be upconverted to output resolution of 720p or 1080i to complement the performance of a HDTV. As the conversion takes place in the player, the signal remains free from excessive digital-to-analog conversion artifacts.

High Quality Audio
Toshiba's HD-XA1 and HD-A1 support a variety of HD audio options to complement HD video offerings. The mandatory audio formats for HD DVD include both lossy and lossless formats from Dolby Labs and DTS® including the newly developed Dolby® Digital Plus and DTS-HD.

The lossless mandatory formats include Linear PCM and Dolby TrueHD (only 2 Channel support is mandatory). The TrueHD format is bit-for-bit identical to the high resolution studio masters and can support up to eight discrete full range channels of 24-bit/96k Hz audio. Another lossless format (specified as an optional format) is DTS-HD. This employs high sampling rates of up to192k Hz.

Both models feature built-in multi-channel decoders for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD (2 channel), DTS and DTS-HD. The HD-XA1 employs the use of
four high performance DSP engines to decode the multi-channel streams of the wide array of audio formats. These high performance processors will perform the required conversion process, as well as the extensive on-board Multi-Channel Signal Management including: User Selectable Crossovers, Delay Management and Channel Level Management.

The new HD DVD players can pass digital information to a Surround Sound Processor/Receiver via S/PDIF or HDMI. For Dolby Digital and DTS, the bitstream will be passed through both connections just as in a standard DVD player with the same interfaces. Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD content will be converted to a standard bitstream format that is compatible with any processor equipped with decoders of the respective formats and output through S/PDIF and HDMI. Additionally, all the audio formats for either DVD or HD DVD will be decoded to PCM and output via HDMI in either stereo or multi-channel.

High Definition Design
The design of both new HD DVD players was developed to complement the newly designed DLP Projection TV models as well as Toshiba's extensive flat panel TV line-up. Specifically, the construction of the HD-XA1 was developed not only for advancements in performance, but also for the refinements expected of a high performance player. It features a motorized door which conceals the disc drawer, function buttons and two front USB ports, for convenient connection of gaming controllers. The HD-XA1 also includes three different user selectable interfaces to further enhance customization and a backlit remote control that is conveniently motion activated.

Because HD DVD Discs spin at higher revolutions than a standard DVD, accurate mechanical engineering went into the chassis design of both models. A double chassis construction is employed to add stability and strength against vibrations and the HD-XA1 adds insulated stabilizing feet to provide a steadfast foundation for the device.

High Definition Market Launch
Toshiba also unveiled an extensive integrated marketing communications campaign to support the launch of its first HD DVD players. The multi-tiered campaign is designed to create consumer awareness for HD DVD and to support retailers with promotional and training activities.

A teaser micro-site was recently launched with the release of a full micro-site to follow.
The current teaser micro-site has been designed to educate consumers on HD DVD, and the launch of the full micro-site will include pertinent product and software information with links on where to buy, options for pre-ordering players, as well as listings of where to see product demonstrations.

Toshiba also announced a retail demonstration plan which will target the top 38 TV viewing markets in the U.S. beginning in February, 2006. In advance of the actual product launch in March, Toshiba's 38-city "road tour" will include consumer demonstrations and retailer training at many of the top electronics retail outlets nationwide.

Beginning this Spring, an extensive advertising campaign titled, "So real you can feel it," will target the HDTV consumer. This campaign will be supported by continued consumer education through the use of HD DVD collateral materials to help make consumers aware of the benefits of HD DVD.

To support retailers, Toshiba will offer an HD DVD in-store product display designed to enhance retail presence and to provide valuable information regarding HD DVD. The display also offers the retailer the flexibility to add HD DVD software to surround the display. These displays will work in conjunction with Toshiba's HDTV in-store presence, and Toshiba will also add retail incentives to encourage attachment of a HD DVD player to the sale of Toshiba's HDTV products.

Pricing and Availability
HD-XA1 ($799.99, March 2006); HD-A1 ($499.99, March 2006


Match Set. HD DVD wins
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post #5 of 2106
Samsung Blu Ray player is $1000

Samsung Electronics formally kicks off the era of Blu-ray today, as it demonstrates its BD-P1000 Blu-ray disc (BD) player here at CES. The new device will let consumers take full advantage of high-definition displays, playing content at native 720p or 1080i video resolutions. The player will ship in early Spring and shortly thereafter will become the first BD player from any manufacturer to be sold in the U.S. It is expected to retail for approximately $1,000.

The BD player includes a high-definition multimedia interface (HDMI) output, an industry-supported, uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface on a single cable, allowing users to easily connect the Blu-ray player to their existing home televisions. It will also decode standard multi-channel audio.

Samsungs Blu-ray player will be the first available to consumers, and we will continue to innovate with our introduction of a Blu-ray recorder later this year, said President Geesung Choi of Samsung Electronics Digital Media Business. With todays announcement and those to come, Samsung is demonstrating its leadership in driving the next generation optical format.

Samsung developed all components of the BD-P1000 internally. Samsungs unique technology one pickup with two lenses allows it to also play standard DVDs and CDs in addition to Blu-ray discs while allowing for more cost-effective production. The supported DVD formats include DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, DVD-R, DVD+RW, and DVD+R. Additional features of the BD-P1000 include memory card reader, full audio format support, pop-up and always-on menu options; a full color high-definition animated button; and improved bitmap and text subtitles.

The increased storage capacity of Blu-ray discs allows the Samsung BD player to offer an astounding 25 GB of content on a single-sided disc (50 GB per dual layer) - nearly six times the capacity of traditional DVDs and enough space for two hours of high-definition movies or recorded content (see chart below).

The Blu-ray next-generation optical disc format was created by a group of the worlds top consumer electronics companies, including Samsung. This format was intended to meet intense consumer demand for playing and recording high-definition content, which far surpasses the video quality DVD can handle. With remarkable high quality video and crisp audio clarity, Blu-ray is unsurpassed in high-definition entertainment. Other applications including gaming and interactive media will take even greater advantage of the format.
Connectivity includes CVBS Output, S-Video Output, component output, HDMI and both digital and analog audio outputs. Supported audio formats include 192KHz LPCM, Dolby digital & Dolby Digital Plus, MPEG 2, DTS and MP3. BD-P1000 also has a memory card reader supporting Compact Flash, XD Picture card, Micro Drive, SD, MMC & RS-MMC, Memory stick and Memory stick duo (all TM).

The BD-P1000 is scheduled to ship to the U.S. in early Spring 2006, in tandem with the availability of the first pre-recorded Blu-ray titles. It is expected to retail for approximately $1,000.


Did you guys really doubt me when I said Blu Ray is too expensive?
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post #6 of 2106
Pioneers Blu Ray entry

Pioneer Electronics (USA) today introduced at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas one of the world's first Blu-ray Disc players, marking an innovation in home entertainment that allows consumers to experience the ultimate in high-definition home theater.

"Blu-ray is one of the most exciting innovations in home theater consumers will see from the 2006 Consumer Electronics Show, and Pioneer is at the forefront of this new market with one of the world's first Blu-ray Disc players as well as a Blu-ray Disc computer drive," said Russ Johnston, senior vice president of marketing and product planning for home entertainment at Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc.

Blu-ray Discs have the capacity to store up to 50 gigabytes of information on a single disc to meet consumers' growing demand for high-definition content. This new optical disc format enables consumers to purchase or rent major movie titles and enjoy all the benefits of high-definition audio and video quality with a 5-inch optical disc that looks very similar in size and shape to a DVD. The increased disc capacity will enable movie studios to include a complete high-definition movie on a single disc with more features than currently available on DVD including interactive features. The same technology will be used in Pioneer computer drives that will record up to 25 gigabytes of data for computer back-ups, home movies, music and other computer files.

HD Quality & Interactivity

Pioneer's new BDP-HD1 Blu-ray Disc player is designed to deliver 1920 x 1080p output, the highest of the three high-definition signals, providing consumers simple access to amazing audio, video and interactive content. It will now be as easy as stopping by the neighborhood video store to bring HD quality movies into the home. Hollywood studios are filling their end of the bargain by releasing some of the hottest movie titles on Blu-ray Disc and adding interactive features not possible with DVD because of its limited space capacity. The American public has grown to love DVD and once they experience Blu-ray Disc, they'll feel the same emotional attachment to this new technology. Pioneer's BDP-HD1 does offer backward compatibility for standard DVDs so consumers can maintain their existing DVD movie collection as they begin a new Blu-ray Disc collection.

HD Home Networking

Pioneer's full-featured unit takes home networking to another level with IP network capabilities that allow consumers to enjoy high-definition video and multi-channel audio content directly through the player rather than a computer. For simple integration into the home theater, the unit provides a single high-definition HDMI connection for users to view and hear all content transferred through the home network in HD.

For those operating a networked home, the BDP-HD1 was designed with Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) guidelines. When utilizing the IP networking capability, users will be able to access and easily load protected content currently stored on a DLNA compliant server or Windows XP PC using Windows Media Connect. In addition to favorite photos, music and movies, users can download new content straight to their computer for immediate viewing on a television through the player. The unit's playsforsure(TM) compliance provides compatibility with all existing Microsoft software.

HD Connectivity

For even easier set-up options, the unit features single wire connection through HDMI for the transfer of both video and audio in HD. HDMI output ensures the best quality picture and sound for both standard definition and Blu-ray Disc content. The Blu-ray Disc player is designed for easy operation offering a visually rich high-definition graphic user interface (GUI) for user-friendly navigation.

"Combining Blu-ray technology with Pioneer's newest 1080p plasma and high-definition receivers and speakers, we are ushering in a new dimension of high-definition home entertainment that creates an experience never before seen or heard in the home," Johnston said.

HD Audio

To complement the high-resolution picture capability, the BDP-HD1 reproduces new high-resolution audio formats: DTS-HD and Dolby Digital for a complete HD entertainment experience. Those with a large library of digital music files will be glad to know that the BDP-HD1 can playback compressed music files WMA (DRM compatible) and MP3, as well as LPCM.

Heritage of Optical Disc Expertise

Pioneer has been an innovator of optical disc technology since it brought LaserDisc, the precursor to DVD, to market in 1980. Pioneer went on to introduce the first DVD burner for computer use in 1997, the first DVD recorder as a VCR replacement in 1999, the first DVD burner priced for home computer users in 2001 and surpassed 5 million sales of DVD burners in 2003. The company now leads the market with the introduction of this new Blu-ray Disc player.

Playback Compatibility
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Blu-ray Disc BD-RE, BD-R, BD-ROM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DVD and other Video DVD-R, DVD-RW, +R, +RW, WMV,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Audio DTS-HD, Dolby Digital, WMA, MP3, LPCM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Photos JPEG
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The BDP-HD1 will begin shipping to retailers across the country in June under the Pioneer Elite brand. It will have a suggested price of $1800.



Yes folks that IS $1800!!

Did I mention...Game Over

hahahahahh I LOVE IT!!
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post #7 of 2106
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post #8 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Match Set. HD DVD wins

Set and match? It's not even 'Game HD DVD'.

Do you really think that the very first player will be the one winning the war? And where are the movies? And the Pioneer player clearly out matches the Toshiba player.
JLL

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post #9 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Yes folks that IS $1800!!

There are $20K and $30K CD players out there - pointing out the higher priced gear does not imply what you think it does.

I'm sure that both HD-DVD and Blu-ray will have $10K players as well as $500 players.
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post #10 of 2106
For those operating a networked home, the BDP-HD1 was designed with Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) guidelines. When utilizing the IP networking capability, users will be able to access and easily load protected content currently stored on a DLNA compliant server or Windows XP PC using Windows Media Connect. In addition to favorite photos, music and movies, users can download new content straight to their computer for immediate viewing on a television through the player. The unit's playsforsure(TM) compliance provides compatibility with all existing Microsoft software.

And the computer just got kicked out of the living room again. Now we just need Apple to make DLNA compatible products.


"Combining Blu-ray technology with Pioneer's newest 1080p plasma...

I can only find regular 1024x768 plasmas from Pioneer
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #11 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Set and match? It's not even 'Game HD DVD'.

Do you really think that the very first player will be the one winning the war? And where are the movies? And the Pioneer player clearly out matches the Toshiba player.

Well maybe you rich folks across the atlantic can afford to pay 2x for your gear but in America where Walmart is the biggest retailer price is everything. I can buy TWO HD DVD players for today's cheapest Blu Ray.

I've been telling you guys this for months and you kept doubting and now you have the proof of why I've been an HD DVD proponent.

Blu Ray is getting Pwned in the biggest way!!
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post #12 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Well maybe you rich folks across the atlantic can afford to pay 2x for your gear but in America where Walmart is the biggest retailer price is everything. I can buy TWO HD DVD players for today's cheapest Blu Ray.

And then you can sit down and look at that fine player - perhaps even watch a standard DVD and realize that you've paid $500 for an oversized DVD player since there aren't any HD movies out.

This is the first wave of products and the 'price is everything' consumers won't even look at the Toshiba player since they can buy a DVD player for $49.


Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
I've been telling you guys this for months and you kept doubting and now you have the proof of why I've been an HD DVD proponent.

And you pee in your pants to get warm in the winter?

The $500 advantage might not be enough to cover the disadvantages.

You're jumping to conclusions.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #13 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Well maybe you rich folks across the atlantic can afford to pay 2x for your gear but in America where Walmart is the biggest retailer price is everything. I can buy TWO HD DVD players for today's cheapest Blu Ray.

I've been telling you guys this for months and you kept doubting and now you have the proof of why I've been an HD DVD proponent.

Blu Ray is getting Pwned in the biggest way!!

HD-DVD has absolutely no appeal to people who buy $500 DVD players, because they don't have HDTV sets. In a way, a $500 HD-DVD player is a bad idea, because I don't think that it will sell that well.

The PS3, on the other hand, will sell very well to the mass market - so mass market penetration for HD-DVD will be quite difficult to achieve, and mass market Blu-ray is easy. HD-DVD would have to be so cheap that it gets added for free to every DVD player before it has a chance for the mass market the way Blu-ray has.
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post #14 of 2106
Quote:
The $500 advantage might not be enough to cover the disadvantages.

disadvantages that you seem loath to point out. Keep in mind that both platform have extensible firmware so regarding output channels that can and will change for both(source kjack sigma designs>

What we could be seeing is a lukewarm attempt by the BDA kowing the PS3 is coming so they may as well add a bunch of margin in. It really is a risk though because if the "perception" becomes Blu Ray is expensive then consumers won't buy in because qualitatively it offers no advantages over HD DVD.

The BDA better hope there is no huge price disparity in the media or I look to see some BDA studios jump ship.

Things look absolutely ROSY right now for HD DVD. Better than I could have expected.
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post #15 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
HD-DVD has absolutely no appeal to people who buy $500 DVD players, because they don't have HDTV sets. In a way, a $500 HD-DVD player is a bad idea, because I don't think that it will sell that well.

The PS3, on the other hand, will sell very well to the mass market - so mass market penetration for HD-DVD will be quite difficult to achieve, and mass market Blu-ray is easy. HD-DVD would have to be so cheap that it gets added for free to every DVD player before it has a chance for the mass market the way Blu-ray has.


Hmmmmm let me see here. In America the average person watches roughly 5-6hrs of TV programming. I doubt you'd find the same numbers of US citizens gaming so the PS3 cannot be expected to sell as well as you presume.

To further illustrate how silly you sound I need only ask one question.

"how much is a HD DVD player versus a Playstation 3?"

Oh wait...you don't know do you? Sony hasn't released pricing on the Playstation 3.
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post #16 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
disadvantages that you seem loath to point out. Keep in mind that both platform have extensible firmware so regarding output channels that can and will change for both(

Can a firmware update make the Toshiba player 1080p capable? Can it get the studios to release movies?

Let's see what happens. Right now there are too few players to compare and when did a 1st model of anything penetrate a market? We still need to see players from all the other Blu-ray companies.

It's also a matter of strategy. Pioneer's player seem to be a high end player with cheaper models to be released later on (it mimics previous releases from them). Toshiba's on the other hand sounds like it's actualy intended for the regular consumer.

Pioneer have $1,000 DVD players in their line up, but they do also sell $100 players. And since they have a $1,000 regular DVD player you can't really expect them to release a Blu-ray player with more features for less, can you?
JLL

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post #17 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Hmmmmm let me see here. In America the average person watches roughly 5-6hrs of TV programming. I doubt you'd find the same numbers of US citizens gaming so the PS3 cannot be expected to sell as well as you presume.

To further illustrate how silly you sound I need only ask one question.

"how much is a HD DVD player versus a Playstation 3?"

Oh wait...you don't know do you? Sony hasn't released pricing on the Playstation 3.

Who exactly are you expecting to buy the HD-DVD player? I know the 100 million people I expect to buy PS3s, and I know that the PS3 will have to be $500 or less if they want to sell it.
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post #18 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Who exactly are you expecting to buy the HD-DVD player?

Obviously everyone watching TV
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #19 of 2106
Quote:
Can a firmware update make the Toshiba player 1080p capable? Can it get the studios to release movies?

Yes and no. HD DVD records data at 1080p so you're only talking about what it outputs and adding a scaler to the output is trivial if 1080p is required for marketing


Quote:
Who exactly are you expecting to buy the HD-DVD player? I know the 100 million people I expect to buy PS3s, and I know that the PS3 will have to be $500 or less if they want to sell it.

I have HD at home and if you think people want to go back to SD or upscaled DVD you're mad. Once you've had HD you don't want to mess with SD stuff.

It'll take some time before the PS3 is 100 Million in quantity.

Hey fellas I realize it's early but I'm just basking in the glow a bit here. Forgive me
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post #20 of 2106
Most HDTV users have analog front or rear projection systems - does not work with HDMI unless you buy a pirate box. I have a CRT front projector, and HD-DVD is useless to me.

The only people who would buy this own an HDCP compatible HDTV sets. There are currently 15 million DTV sets in the country according to the CEA, but they don't indicate what percentage is HDTV with HDCP (my guess is about 1 million).

I will admit, though, that the $500 initial price will let them sell a lot more than the old estimate of $1000. I predict that they sell 50,000 units.
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post #21 of 2106
For those of you who can deciper such things, is it clear whether either format will output high-def over component? From the HD-DVD specs, it sounds like NO; the Samsung Blu-Ray release mentions component but only as part of a list of outputs available.

I have the terrible feeling that what will really hamper both formats is that the millions of us who invested in HD TVs before DVI and HDMI became prevalent will be well and truly boned.

(e1618978, this is what you're getting at as well, no?)
post #22 of 2106
What's your deal, murch? Why is HD DVD such a big deal to you?

I ask because there isn't really anyone I've met besides you who is so fond of HD-DVD. Most folks with any degree of interest in the debate are either casual observers or Blu-ray supporters, which is perhaps nobler, since the Blu-ray technology is a little more capable.

And please don't tell me about some rationale involving Chinese disk manufacturers. The media cost and other associated cost differences won't get passed on to the end consumer, regardless of the format. As has happened in the past, marketeers at the agencies will collectively raise the HD market price, and consumers get screwed either way.

I think it's also still fair to say that "it's not even game-point for HD-DVD." Following the tennis analogy, HD-DVD certainly hasn't won a break-point yet. $499 is still too expensive, and puts it in the relatively small enthusiast market. It's certainly not enough to make the picture groups all of the sudden embrace HD-DVD.
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post #23 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
For those of you who can deciper such things, is it clear whether either format will output high-def over component?

Doesn't HD require HDCP?
JLL

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post #24 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Doesn't HD require HDCP?

Only if they choose to implement it. Or rather, if the movie studios force them to choose to implement it.
post #25 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Hmurchison,

I will let you enjoy your couple of hours basking in artificial HD-DVD light, but I think you are jumping the gun a bit too soon.

We'll know tomorrow, but if the hard time Sony has been giving the XBox concerning it's 1080i resolution is any indicator, I fully expect news about the PS3 and its capability of outputting 1080P resolution. Maybe even its price, but I won't count on this one.

Also, I expect more news displaying the durability of Blu-Ray discs as compared to HD-DVD.

Moreover, you know as well as I that the old cliche of "content is king" will be in full effect tomorrow, and considering that Blu-Ray has the majority of studios backing their format, who is going to buy a Toshiba player that only has a fraction of the movies available? Moreover, you underestimate the raw market penetration the Blu-Ray will have considering that the majority of consumer electronic companies back Blu-Ray. Moreover, consumers who see a $499 Toshiba player with a fraction of the movies, and the PS3 at what is expected to be $399/$499 price point along with the plethora of other Blu-Ray disc players and movies on the shelf from the 150+ companies, I guarantee people will choose the PS3 because they get more for their money--a High Definition movie player that plays more movies and a gaming console--and they'll see that Blu-Ray has more of a presence. Even if the consumer is not a "gamer" more consumers than not will reach for the PS3 because it offers more or they'll reach for another Blu-Ray player because their will be varieties of Blu-Ray players with of course, you guessed it the sole Toshiba player.

Again, economies of scale will win this war, and let's just say the majority are pro Blu-Ray which will also benefit the consumer by driving the price down. Initial pricing doesn't guarantee victory. I'm quite suprised you're getting so excited without seeing what all the other companies other than Toshiba have up their sleeve. We'll just see...
post #26 of 2106
Quote:
What's your deal, murch? Why is HD DVD such a big deal to you?

It's not really. I'll own both platforms likely and hope that I can sell off the one that looks like it's going to die.

I think HD DVD and Blu Ray have both made their respective products better. Now there is one last area to see reach parity and that's price. I've said all along that HD DVD will have a price advantage and as of today that advantage is pretty strong. I expect this to diminish once the PS3 ships however.

I guess I just looked at things from the perspective of what I want in a movie distribution format and I saw Blu Ray as selling more more sizzle than steak. I'm all for large capacity but within certain contexts.

I think the cheaper format will win seeing as how the quality should be the same.
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post #27 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Blu-Ray Movie Releases:

(Paramount)(10)
Aeon Flux
Four Brothers
Manchurian Candidate
Mission Impossible
Mission Impossible 2
Mission Impossible 3
Sahara
Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow
Sleepy Hollow
The Italian Job
Tomb Raider
U2: Rattle and Hum
We Were Soldiers

(Fox)(20)
Behind Enemy Lines
Fantastic Four
Ice Age
Kiss Of The Dragon
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
+15 More

(Lionsgate)(10)
Dune
Lord of War
Rambo: First Blood
Reservoir Dogs
Saw
See No Evil
Terminator 2: Judgment Day
The Devil's Rejects
The Punisher
Total Recall

(Sony)(20)
A Knight's Tale
Black Hawk Down
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Desperado
For a Few Dollars More
Hitch
House of Flying Daggers
Kung Fu Hustle
Legends of the Fall
Resident Evil Apocalypse
Robocop
Sense and Sensibility
Species
Stealth
SWAT
The Bridge on the River Kwai
The Fifth Element
The Guns of Navarone
The Last Waltz
XXX

Now for HD-DVD Movie Releases:

(Paramount)(10)
Aeon Flux
Four Brothers
Manchurian Candidate
Mission Impossible
Mission Impossible 2
Mission Impossible 3
Sahara
Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow
Sleepy Hollow
The Italian Job
Tomb Raider
U2: Rattle and Hum
We Were Soldiers

That is 60 Blu-Ray releases to 10 HD-DVD releases with Disney, Warner, Universal, and others still yet to announce. Just something to think about when you walk into a Best Buy, Circuit City, or Wal-Mart. The walls will be covered with Blu-Ray movie selections.
post #28 of 2106
hmurchison

Did you happen to notice in the press release you posted that the Toshiba HD-DVD player only does 1080i, not 1080p? Uh-Oh.

Have you seen the Blu-Ray players from Samsung and Pioneer? They are built like tanks and they do 1080p. These flagship models are always expensive. I'm sure they will drop those prices before their actual release thanks to Toshiba's pricing. See, Toshiba is good for something after all. Don't forget that almost every major manufacturer out there is going to have Blu-Ray players. You don't think they will all be priced the same do you?

I wonder, would it matter that the Toshiba HD-DVD player is $500 when the Playstation 3 will cost as much and do more?

At least your true colors are showing now. You claimed over and over to be platform agnostic but from today's posts we all see through your pretense.

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post #29 of 2106
Yes all those title will go really well with that stack of Blu Ray players at $1000 and up.

I've said all along that Blu Ray is too expensive and today the rubber met the road.

My next prediction is that cheap will trump all else including studio support. You are hanging precariously on a PR of movie titles with no pricing.

The reality..and it's a harsh one is that the PS3 wrecks the advantage of having multiple vendors. The PS3 isn't shipping for months but backorders for HD DVD are going on right now at Amazon, Best Buy, Crutchfield.

Blu Ray doesn't look as strong. CES 2006 definitely belongs to HD DVD.
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post #30 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Yes all those title will go really well with that stack of Blu Ray players at $1000 and up.

Blu Ray doesn't look as strong. CES 2006 definitely belongs to HD DVD.

I don't see how CES belongs to HD-DVD when only Toshiba and RCA are making players while everyone else is making Blu-Ray players. Also, only 10 titles so far for HD-DVD and 60 for Blu-Ray. Never mind the fact we have only seen a few announcements prior to the actual show.

The titles announced for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray suck, probably because the studios don't want to release any "big" movies until they see the encryption works as promised in the real world.

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post #31 of 2106
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, the studio with the most at stake in its Blu-ray Disc format, is being the most aggressive with plans to introduce the upcoming theatrical release Underworld Evolution day-and-date with the DVD in late spring/early summer. The studio will have 20 Sony and MGM titles including XXX and Robocop ready to go even earlier, when players are expected to be released as early as March.

Sony also will release four catalog titles each month beginning this summer, every new theatrical release day-and-date on DVD and Blu-ray Disc and the first high-def version of a TV series to be announced so far from a major studio, Stargate: Atlantis.

Yes! Now come on Universal and give us Battlestar Galactica!

Additionally, Sony is going out on a limb and committing to the debut of two titles--Bridge on the River Kwai and Black Hawk Down--using the 50GB dual-layer Blu-ray Disc, which has been running behind development time from the standard 25GB single-layer disc.

The studio also is announcing plans Wednesday for summer titles featuring advanced interactive gaming using the BD Java software, which has sparked some dissension from Hewlett-Packard within the Blu-ray Disc camp. SPHE president Ben Feingold said the process is too far along now to turn back and not use BD Java.

As for the 50GB dual-layer disc, Feingold said both movies have long running times as well as hours of bonus features that the studio has produced but been unable to release on DVD because they take up too much space.

Sony also will take advantage of the enormous additional capacity to use uncompressed audio on some of its Blu-ray Disc titles, including two Sony/MGM titles in the first wave--The Fifth Element and The Last Waltz. Sony execs say that even movie theaters do not offer uncompressed digital audio.

Ah, I see the extra capacity of Blu-Ray is already coming in handy. Nice.

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post #32 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
(e1618978, this is what you're getting at as well, no?)

Yes - if they offer 720p or 1080i on component without copy protection that will broaden the market interest.

Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
backorders for HD DVD are going on right now at Amazon, Best Buy, Crutchfield.

link?

Quote:
Originally posted by 1984
Ah, I see the extra capacity of Blu-Ray is already coming in handy. Nice.

HDTV is about 8.5 GB/hour for 1080p, so single layer HD-DVD disks are a little on the small size - but maybe we won't see single layer disks around for long.
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post #33 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
HDTV is about 8.5 GB/hour for 1080p, so single layer HD-DVD disks are a little on the small size - but maybe we won't see single layer disks around for long.

8.5GB an hour using which codec and at what bitrate? Everything I have ever read is that VC-1 and H.264 hit their "sweet spot" at 12Mbps (anything more gives diminishing returns). At 12Mbps that is roughly 5.4GB per hour. I wish I had the links, but 8.5GB/hour seems a little high (aprox a 20Mbps bitrate).
post #34 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
8.5GB an hour using which codec and at what bitrate? Everything I have ever read is that VC-1 and H.264 hit their "sweet spot" at 12Mbps (anything more gives diminishing returns). At 12Mbps that is roughly 5.4GB per hour. I wish I had the links, but 8.5GB/hour seems a little high (aprox a 20Mbps bitrate).

If he's talking broadcast then he has to use up to 19.4Mbps as the data rate.

Quote:
link

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...onics&v=glance

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-zqdNP3o...wzp*5MjiDnZK-v

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....cat80500050007

Universal added 24 HD DVD titles and I think Warner added more. I'm thinking we have about 100 Blu Ray titles announced in total and 60-70 for HD DVD.

Microsoft has announced a future HD DVD Xbox add on. No pricing given. Toshiba should be showing a HD DVD drive in a Qosmio laptop.

The Battle Begins.
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post #35 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
If he's talking broadcast then he has to use up to 19.4Mbps as the data rate.

And broadcast is MPEG2...So anything going onto HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will be using the more efficient AVC or VC-1, correct? Which means same quality in lower bitrates. Yes, I know they could use MPEG2, but why waste the space?

[edit] On a side note, can you convert from HDMI to DVI? My HD set has DVI on it, and I am wondering if such a conversion is possible.
post #36 of 2106
easy to convert with a cable as long as your tv's DVI is HDCP compliant.
post #37 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by 1984
These flagship models are always expensive. I'm sure they will drop those prices before their actual release thanks to Toshiba's pricing.

I don't think so. Pioneer's model is from their Elite series where a regular DVD player costs $1,000.

Expect to see lower end models though. Philips demoed a consumer BD model, but they didn't reveal the pricing AFAIK.
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post #38 of 2106
As much as hmurchison is gloating, if HD-DVD fails, he'll have real egg on his face. This could very well shape up as a rehash of the laserdisc vs. Selectavision battle. All through that war, RCA played the quixotic outsider while MCA got more companies onboard to manufacture laserdisc players and discs. RCA kept harping about their price advantage, that their players were half the price of laserdisc players and CED discs sold for about $30 while laserdiscs of the era went for $40 or more. In the end, it didn't matter since laserdisc had the superior technology and industry support. Selectavision lasted three years. Laserdisc roughly 20 before being supplanted by DVDs.
post #39 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
And broadcast is MPEG2...So anything going onto HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will be using the more efficient AVC or VC-1, correct? Which means same quality in lower bitrates. Yes, I know they could use MPEG2, but why waste the space?

[edit] On a side note, can you convert from HDMI to DVI? My HD set has DVI on it, and I am wondering if such a conversion is possible.

I was talking about MPEG2 - I guess that HD-DVD will use MPEG4 and Blu-ray is going to use MPEG2.

According to the fellow "1984" on the other thread:

"MPEG2 is more mature in terms of encoding than MPEG4. More people are familiar with MPEG2 and the tools to work with it. The encoding process for MPEG4 is very time consuming and it takes a great deal of care to do it right adding to the production time. Since it is more complex it also takes a lot of computing power to decode. Even with a hardware decoding I saw artifacts in high-speed scenes on HD-DVD when there were none with Blu-Ray though the demos were of different material. It just couldn't keep up. The HD-DVD prototype also shut down repeatedly due to overheating. This was a while ago so I'm sure they have made progress but it shows what a pain in the ass MPEG4 can be to deal with. Don't get me wrong, I think it's the future but at the moment it's not necessarilly the best choice."

and regarding the new MPEG4 channels on DirecTV:

"I saw lots of digital artifacts on the MPEG4 channels. Don't know if it was the H20 or the transmission. The MPEG2 channels looked great though. They'll get it sorted out but MPEG4 will be a bumpier road, that's for sure."
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post #40 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I was talking about MPEG2 - I guess that HD-DVD will use MPEG4 and Blu-ray is going to use MPEG2.

Both formats will use all 3 codecs (AVC, VC-1, and MPEG2), its up to the content producer which codec they will use. I have watched some of the HD trailers on Apple's website (encode with H.264/AVC), and there are no artifacts. They look amazing.
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