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Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (2006) - Page 43

post #1681 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

So now the official Blu-ray launch has happened eh? Sheesh what took you so long? Toshiba's second generation players are coming in 3 weeks. BD-Live (networked content) wont be available until June 2007. I'm sticking with HD DVD for the time being.

I'm sticking with HD-DVD as well...... but I'm still trying to get the PS3 for BD-DVD exclusive titles which is very few that I want to get..... but by the time I get to own one, I might not need it since Disney/Pixar may go neutral in the first half of 07. What are my chances of picking up PS3 before 1st half of next year? Only 250K units at launch, and not sure whether Sony can manufacture over even 500k units in the states by the year end.

BTW, most of the first batch PS3's went to extreme gamers or ebayers.... 20k units on ebay on the launch day does say something.... and the percentage of initially delivered units being used as BD-DVD player is very remote. Which does reflect very poorly on the initial expectation of PS3 being the catalyst to move niche BD-DVD market.
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post #1682 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trendannoyer

in case you didnt realise Europe hasnt gotten the PS3 yet, so its stil FUTURE HARDWARE here at least.

This has already been addressed, but I agree its ok in future hardware for others reasons... because PS3/xBox are closely related to the future hardware of HD-DVD / Blu-Ray (I know there are players etc now so thats not future, but this thread is also about the prospects of the DVD market.
post #1683 of 2106
"all the transistors in the world can’t make someone smile."- ouch

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/20/ar...=1&oref=slogin





EDIT: who was i arguing with in regards to the ps3's load times? was it Tel? i tried one out at the store, HORRID! go try it yourself.
post #1684 of 2106
Hi, This post is very informative, however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,
post #1685 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac

BTW, most of the first batch PS3's went to extreme gamers or ebayers....

Don't forget thieves and murderers.
post #1686 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by kupan787

For the cost of a 100GB bluray disk, I could potentially just buy a 250GB hard drive, load it up a lot faster, and then store that offsite. Plus, don't hard drives last longer than optical media?

Hard drives aren't that convenient for off-site storage in a safety deposit box. Otherwise I'd agree with you.
post #1687 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73

Hard drives aren't that convenient for off-site storage in a safety deposit box. Otherwise I'd agree with you.

Why not? Buy an external firewire case for $40. Then you just pop in the 3.5" Hard drive, back up, take it out, and store the naked drive in a safe/safety deposit box/burried under ground in a garbage bag. You can reuse the external case for multiple offsite backups (just swap in and out a drive), and to reload the files quickly. The other advantage is that you can carry the case around with you, and just plug it in anywhere.

Overall still less expensive than optical blu-ray or HD-DVD, and faster.
post #1688 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by kupan787

Overall still less expensive than optical blu-ray or HD-DVD.

For now. Remember that it wasn't that many years ago when people had to pay $50 for a recordable DVD or even $20 for a recordable CD. CD-Rs got cheap and most people didn't think DVD-Rs would approach their price. Then Apple came out with the Superdrive and DVD-R blanks that were "only" $10, a huge bargain at the time. Now name brand DVD-R blanks are only 20¢ apiece, twice the price of CD-Rs for 6x the capacity. The only dumb thing is dual-layer discs still being ridiculously expensive (relative to single layer). Blu-ray blanks will come down in price. You can bank on that. Give it two to three years and I think the 50GB blanks will be $10, if not below $5. The former price would be competitive with the 400GB/$100 best price you can find for hard drives today. The latter could go toe to toe with expected hard drive prices in three years. And if it approaches DVD-R prices (say less than $1/disc), your argument is toast.
post #1689 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak

For now. Remember that it wasn't that many years ago when people had to pay $50 for a recordable DVD or even $20 for a recordable CD. CD-Rs got cheap and most people didn't think DVD-Rs would approach their price. Then Apple came out with the Superdrive and DVD-R blanks that were "only" $10, a huge bargain at the time. Now name brand DVD-R blanks are only 20¢ apiece, twice the price of CD-Rs for 6x the capacity. The only dumb thing is dual-layer discs still being ridiculously expensive (relative to single layer). Blu-ray blanks will come down in price. You can bank on that. Give it two to three years and I think the 50GB blanks will be $10, if not below $5. The former price would be competitive with the 400GB/$100 best price you can find for hard drives today. The latter could go toe to toe with expected hard drive prices in three years. And if it approaches DVD-R prices (say less than $1/disc), your argument is toast.

Lots of ifs there

I just don't see, for anyone other than the lowly consumer, using optical media like this for backups. Thumb drives keep getting larger, and hard drives keep getting cheaper. Corporations, and even prosumers, will be using tape/hard drives (of all sizes, 1.8", 2.5", 3.5"), do to the speed and cost compared with Blu-Ray. By the time that Blu-Ray media gets down there in price (assuming it doesn't stay artificially inflated like DVD+-DL), hard drive sizes will be huge, so measly 250GB drives will be dirt cheap. and that 250GB drive holds 5 dual layer Blu-Ray disks.

Both of us are doing some guess work, and trying to predict the future. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.
post #1690 of 2106
gears of war spins 1 million copies. fastest selling xbox 360 game (beat out oblivion), beat out halo 2 as the most played xbox live game (for both xbox and the 360)

increased gold memberships for xbl by 50%

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162230.html
post #1691 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by kupan787

Lots of ifs there

I just don't see, for anyone other than the lowly consumer, using optical media like this for backups. Thumb drives keep getting larger, and hard drives keep getting cheaper. Corporations, and even prosumers, will be using tape/hard drives (of all sizes, 1.8", 2.5", 3.5"), do to the speed and cost compared with Blu-Ray. By the time that Blu-Ray media gets down there in price (assuming it doesn't stay artificially inflated like DVD+-DL), hard drive sizes will be huge, so measly 250GB drives will be dirt cheap. and that 250GB drive holds 5 dual layer Blu-Ray disks.

Not a lot of ifs. Blu-ray discs will come down in price, no doubt about it whatsoever. The only question is whether it'll be sub-$5 or sub-$10 in two years. Either way, it easily beats thumb drives. They may be getting larger, but 4GB drives are still almost $100, a far cry from a 20¢ DVD-R. I doubt they'll challenge optical media anytime soon. Tape drives are good for corporations, not good for anyone else, since they're sequential access. Will 250GB HDs get as cheap as you think? I don't believe so. If you look at the market, the lowest capacity drives always have the worst capacity/performance ratios. 80GB drives still cost 60-80% of a 250GB. There will always be a floor to what these drives cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir

gears of war spins 1 million copies. fastest selling xbox 360 game (beat out oblivion), beat out halo 2 as the most played xbox live game (for both xbox and the 360)

increased gold memberships for xbl by 50%

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162230.html

And this relates to the HD battle how? Does it come on HD-DVD? You are so mired in your Microsoft mania that you forget this thread is about Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD.
post #1692 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak

And this relates to the HD battle how? Does it come on HD-DVD? You are so mired in your Microsoft mania that you forget this thread is about Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD.

You are obviously not paying enough attention in this thread. The relevance of gaming systems has already been discussed in this forum, and I think it is safe to say that the PS3 and xBox 360 are very relevant in terms of Blu Ray and HD-DVD. Blu Ray is used by the PS3 built in, and HD-DVD is used by the xBox as an add-on, and potentially (although this is just speculation) the standard option). When the original PS2 came out onto the market, it had a lot to do with promoting the use of DVDs. Many people actually watched DVDs through their PS2. The PS3 and xBox should prove to be very influential to the success of either Blu Ray or HD-DVD

I'd like to also mention that it is really lame to create arguments like yours: that people are just saying what they are saying because they are excited about the product (as you did above).

Someone did this to me, and they were entirely wrong... see here:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac

aren't ya little short?.... Obviously, you just heard about BD vs. HD-DVD, haven't ya?... I know you're excited about PS3 launch, but do little more research prior to sharing you views. Many things have changed since April of 2006 and your views are outdated.

What are you talking about? I have NEVER owned a gaming gaming console in my life and I don't plan on doing so any time soon.

I don't think you should make blanket statements about things you don't know about. My views are not outdated, because I believe them now, and I base my beliefs in current information. Obviously from my original post you can infer that I think that Sony's use of Blu Ray in it's very popular gaming gaming console, in addition to it's superior performance, features, capacity, and industry/movie studio support, will lead to it's dominance. The HD-DVD players do have one current advantage I will admit: price. Which could be a big factor if Sony arrogantly keeps its price's unnecessarily inflated.
post #1693 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak


And this relates to the HD battle how? Does it come on HD-DVD? You are so mired in your Microsoft mania that you forget this thread is about Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD.

i think you're a bit lost on the whole situation
post #1694 of 2106
First, I don't buy that "a lot" of people watched DVDs via their PS2 other than teenagers and college kids. Second, I don't buy that the PS2 was primarily responsible for the explosion of the DVD market.

Are there any factual statstics to prove that gaming systems are responsible for the mass adoption of the DVD format?
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post #1695 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate

First, I don't buy that "a lot" of people watched DVDs via their PS2 other than teenagers and college kids. Second, I don't buy that the PS2 was primarily responsible for the explosion of the DVD market.

Are there any factual statstics to prove that gaming systems are responsible for the mass adoption of the DVD format?

The PS2 most people's first DVD player, and they did end up buying DVD's to play in it. The DVD had the whole industry behind it after IBM president Lou Gerstner got the opposing companies (supporting SD vs. MMCD) to agree upon a standard - DVD. And this is why when people got their PS2 for the first time, they started buying DVDs, because there was no disagreement in most peoples minds that it was the future of movie medias.
post #1696 of 2106
I think the PS2's influence on DVD buying is mucho overhyped
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post #1697 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

I think the PS2's influence on DVD buying is mucho overhyped


maybe, i thin it was more of a combination between the Ps2 and The Matrix
post #1698 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

I think the PS2's influence on DVD buying is mucho overhyped

Sony has been very involved with the definition of many formats throughout the years, and the PS2 was just the consumer end of trying to get the DVD format to fly.
post #1699 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate

First, I don't buy that "a lot" of people watched DVDs via their PS2 other than teenagers and college kids. Second, I don't buy that the PS2 was primarily responsible for the explosion of the DVD market.

Are there any factual statstics to prove that gaming systems are responsible for the mass adoption of the DVD format?

When the PS2 came out, DVD players were about $400+. These DVD players were pretty crappy—my PS2 was much much better than my dad's $600 player (although his had a nifty, if useless, magnification feature).

DVD sales skyrocketed immediately after the PS2, literally overnight.

The DVD would've happened anyway, but it's well established that the PS2 made it happen way before it would have otherwise.
post #1700 of 2106
I don't see any data or evidence to support this. What I suspect happened was the two technologies enjoyed a great wave simultaneously and they both happened to share the same emerging technology.

People simply wanted an answer to VHS that was something more convenient than LaserDisc. And DVD happened to be that answer. It was a form factor people instantly recognized.

The irony, I think, is that most people commented on DVDs amazing sound quality more than they commented on picture quality.

At any rate. I find it very doubtful that the PS3 will be *the* technology that pushes BluRay over the top. Not when HD-DVD has the brand-name and marketing advantage.
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post #1701 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate

I don't see any data or evidence to support this. What I suspect happened was the two technologies enjoyed a great wave simultaneously and they both happened to share the same emerging technology.

The data is very clear in Japan where DVD adoption rate was slower than the US and Europe. Consoles dominated so a large percentage of DVD viewers were doing so on consoles. In the US, Sony's statements on the PS2 impact to the DVD market is overstated. One could argue the converse that the DVD player built into the PS2 helped its adoption rather than the other way around. Still a competitive advantage that helped both.

I don't doubt that Sony and BluRay will win in Japan. At least for the short run.

Vinea
post #1702 of 2106
Remote play to the PSP looks cool. Amusingly the demo of the PS3 web browser uses a Mac keyboard and mouse. They also showed the PS3 playing video from the iPod.

http://www.threespeech.com/
post #1703 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball

You are obviously not paying enough attention in this thread. The relevance of gaming systems has already been discussed in this forum, and I think it is safe to say that the PS3 and xBox 360 are very relevant in terms of Blu Ray and HD-DVD. Blu Ray is used by the PS3 built in, and HD-DVD is used by the xBox as an add-on, and potentially (although this is just speculation) the standard option).

A single game has no bearing at all on the format war. Especially since not HD-DVD is most assuredly not standard on the 360 and is unlikely to become standard. Game developers will not issue games on both HD-DVD and DVD and cannot forsake the installed base of DVD-equipped 360s, especially since they cannot all be retrofitted with the newer drives. Remember, the HD-DVD add-on is strictly for movies. Like it or not, all 360 games are stuck on DVDs, hence the irrelevance of the sales of one game in this thread. It's quite clear from Elixir's devil emoticon that he wrote it strictly as a troll, and if you yourself had been paying attention to this thread, you'd know that he does nothing except bash Sony and praise Microsoft.

Try to read more before making ignorant, presumptuous statements like "you are obviously not paying enough attention in this thread." I've been participating in this thread on and off since it was started, 40-odd pages of postings ago.
post #1704 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak

A single game has no bearing at all on the format war. Especially since not HD-DVD is most assuredly not standard on the 360 and is unlikely to become standard. Game developers will not issue games on both HD-DVD and DVD and cannot forsake the installed base of DVD-equipped 360s, especially since they cannot all be retrofitted with the newer drives. Remember, the HD-DVD add-on is strictly for movies. Like it or not, all 360 games are stuck on DVDs, hence the irrelevance of the sales of one game in this thread. It's quite clear from Elixir's devil emoticon that he wrote it strictly as a troll, and if you yourself had been paying attention to this thread, you'd know that he does nothing except bash Sony and praise Microsoft.

Try to read more before making ignorant, presumptuous statements like "you are obviously not paying enough attention in this thread." I've been participating in this thread on and off since it was started, 40-odd pages of postings ago.


No need to get defensive. Fortunately it's not up to you to decide what is on topic or off topic. This is a discussion because people have different values, ideas, etc. The relevance of gaming systems to the DVD market is a very viable discussion for this thread, and with that comes the complexities of the gaming systems market: specific games which may or may not define dominance of one gaming system over another in the market and thus one DVD format over the other. If you are not interested in how gaming systems relate to the DVD market, that is perfectly fine by me. Close one eye, and if you still THINK you can see the full picture... hey, thats your problem, not mine.
post #1705 of 2106
if you want to believe that the PS2 DID NOT have an effect on DVD sales then thats fine, keep your blinkered view.. but i offer the following.

i remember reading around 2000 when the PS2 was launched in the UK that AT LAUNCH in Japan Japanese gamers were buying games AND DVDS and the sales figures for DVDs in japan went up something like 40% from the previous month AND STAYED THERE.

call it coincidence if you want, i wont.

also i remember that sagas dreamcast was NOT selling as fast or had as much hype round it at that time and DIDNT have DVD playback, so what did sega do to try and offset the arrival of the PS2?

something that i see microsoft doing

seaga added a full sized DVD player bundled with the dreamcast for the same £300 price, and that was a BIG discount at the time as DVD players were £180 for the cheapest, so this REALLY was a bargin and likely cost sega some money to have to fund.

it offered "mom & pop" the chance to have the dvd player in the other room and little joan or jonny to have the dreamcast in their room.

did it work?

no.

if you dont believe me then fine, i offer no links to this info because i couldnt be bothered arguing and im sure a little googling or wiki skills from someone else will back me up.



oh yeah and the PS2 didnt launch until MARCH then either, but people still bought in their droves, AND used it as a DVD player, as i used mine for the last 5 years... i only recently moved over to a dvd recorder and use that as it has component out, and only recently do i have a TV that can accept that.

at the moment i WONT be buying a PS3 at launch, i WAS going to buy a Wii, but between now and march, i may swing back to a PS3 on launch again... but its good having the chance to see how things pan out in the rest of the world, to see what blu-ray sales will or wont be.
it all depends on what apple goodness is released in Jan in general peoples wallets are only so deep.

meanwhile im getting to see the imperfections in DVD at 50" (yuk)
post #1706 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trendannoyer


at the moment i WONT be buying a PS3 at launch, i WAS going to buy a Wii, but between now and march, i may swing back to a PS3 on launch again... but its good having the chance to see how things pan out in the rest of the world, to see what blu-ray sales will or wont be.
it all depends on what apple goodness is released in Jan in general peoples wallets are only so deep.

meanwhile im getting to see the imperfections in DVD at 50" (yuk)

For those who didn't notice, don't make a stupid comment saying they have already launched, he's from N. Ireland, and no they haven't already launched there.

And btw, I agree with you.
post #1707 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball


. . . And btw, I agree with you.

Me too.

post #1708 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball


No need to get defensive. Fortunately it's not up to you to decide what is on topic or off topic. This is a discussion because people have different values, ideas, etc. The relevance of gaming systems to the DVD market is a very viable discussion for this thread, and with that comes the complexities of the gaming systems market: specific games which may or may not define dominance of one gaming system over another in the market and thus one DVD format over the other. If you are not interested in how gaming systems relate to the DVD market, that is perfectly fine by me. Close one eye, and if you still THINK you can see the full picture... hey, thats your problem, not mine.

Your argument is persuasive because the type was both bolded and colored for emphasis.
post #1709 of 2106
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6180120.stm

interesting?

//The problems reflect the difficulty companies - even those of the size of Microsoft - are having in getting video into the online age.//

ahhh poor microsoft :rollseyes:
post #1710 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco

Your argument is persuasive because the type was both bolded and colored for emphasis.

I couldn't tell if that was sarcastic or not...

The point of bold + color change was to get it noticed. I had already said that many times prior, and I was having to repeat myself because different people hadn't read my prior posts, making arguments that the PS3/xBox was off topic.
post #1711 of 2106
Omg! You guys need to know something: PS3 and the xBox are SO far off topic, that they are your momma!

Seriously, though: I'm too lazy to read the whole thread but what I want to know is which format (if any) is a win for the consumer. I find my DVDs break all the time and like to back them up. What are the DRM in the two formats and what is the disk like? One scratch and it's "good game"?
post #1712 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by jApple

Omg! You guys need to know something: PS3 and the xBox are SO far off topic, that they are your momma!

Seriously, though: I'm too lazy to read the whole thread but what I want to know is which format (if any) is a win for the consumer. I find my DVDs break all the time and like to back them up. What are the DRM in the two formats and what is the disk like? One scratch and it's "good game"?

Whatever format wins the war is the one that is better for consumers.

That said, the Blu-Ray holds far more space and has better scratch resistance. HD-DVD is cheaper to produce right now, but both prices will come down in the long term.

The DRM is the same. It's looking like HDCP (the big evil one everyone hates) isn't going to happen, because any movie that incorporates it is going to see stagnant sales similar to copy protected CDs.
post #1713 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by jApple

Omg! You guys need to know something: PS3 and the xBox are SO far off topic, that they are your momma!

Seriously, though: I'm too lazy to read the whole thread but what I want to know is which format (if any) is a win for the consumer. I find my DVDs break all the time and like to back them up. What are the DRM in the two formats and what is the disk like? One scratch and it's "good game"?

Both formats support Managed Copy. You will be able to make a copy to a hard disc for perhaps a small fee. This copy should be streamable on a home network. The PS3 and Xbox 360 are not off topic because both have support for Blu-ray or HD DVD. In fact I have a friend who just bought a 42" LCD and got a free Xbox 360. I told her about the HD DVD add on and she was very interested. I'm going to help her setup the screen this weekend.
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post #1714 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

In fact I have a friend who just bought a 42" LCD and got a free Xbox 360. I told her about the HD DVD add on and she was very interested. I'm going to help her setup the screen this weekend.


where was this deal at?
post #1715 of 2106
CompUSA for a 42" Olevia
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post #1716 of 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

Both formats support Managed Copy. You will be able to make a copy to a hard disc for perhaps a small fee.


WHAT!!??? so you PAY to make a copy of a product you already PAID for?

hells teeth
post #1717 of 2106
well i found this nice little article that reads

Quote:
Right now, the Xbox 360 looks like the better gaming system to compliment your Mac. The first thing is, as Dan mentioned before, the PS3 can’t play music directly off of the iPod, while the 360 can, and does so very nicely. But, not only that, as Dan also mentioned in that post, the PS3 can’t stream music off of your Mac. Connect360 (which, you guessed it, Dan covered) allows you to stream not only unprotected music and photos from your Mac, but also Windows Media videos via Flip4Mac. Oh, and the Xbox 360 USB wired controller will work with the Mac via a special driver. And, of course, the white and chrome Xbox 360 goes much better with your Mac than the black and silver PS3 (unless you have a black Macbook).


it's already possible to hook up your 360 hd-dvd add on to your mac, i wonder if apples iTV hub will be able to transmit movies to your 360 and vice versa.

http://www.macuser.com/games/xbox_36...r_with_mac.php
post #1718 of 2106
The overlooked feature and application of xbox360 HD-DVD add on is that it's already a popular gadget for the HTPC crowd. It has been couple of weeks now since the initial success of $200 HD-DVD player on a HDCP compliant PC with a HD-DVD player software. There was also a news about HP including HD-DVD rom drive for $100 upgrade option on the desktop lines and I would believe that more PC makers including apple will provide such option. As you all know that xbox360 HD-DVD add on works flawlessly for playing back SD-DVD on a mac, it should also flawlessly work with HD-DVD in the near futre either allowed by apple in the new OS/updates or by third party software. Well, if you already have bootcamp capable mac, then just get the software and the xbox360 add on drive once booted with M$ windows XP/Vista.

Anyway, $200 xbox360 HD-DVD option seems to have great potential for HD-DVD movie market by letting 10 million xbox360 owners by the year end and the knowledgeable HTPC enthusiasts to test out HD-DVD movie experience for only about $200.

BTW, anyone got lucky with a PS3 over the black Friday sales?.... I was up in the bay area visiting family and my black Friday PS3 hunt came up empty. If PS3 keeps it's status as "unavailable", I'm curious how it can help with Blu-Ray movie sales?
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post #1719 of 2106
because of the installed base of over half a million?

nah could that really make a difference?
post #1720 of 2106
I didn't realize the installed user base could already play Blu-Ray movies. Silly me, I thought you needed a PS3 for that.
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