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Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (2006) - Page 2

post #41 of 2106
The Sony Playstation 3 will do 1080/60p

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post #42 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
Both formats will use all 3 codecs (AVC, VC-1, and MPEG2), its up to the content producer which codec they will use. I have watched some of the HD trailers on Apple's website (encode with H.264/AVC), and there are no artifacts. They look amazing.

That's because you're not using an embedded, hardware de-coder.
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post #43 of 2106
Here's my semi-Ludite view, from someone who finally upgrade his 2002 36" Sony XBR HD ready TV to HD last month.

Murch until Toshiba actually comes out with their HD DVD player at the announced feature/price point you have to realize that it's all vaporware. The announcement was probably meant to scare off other makers, a tactic favored by our Redmond brethren. The same holds true for BR, it's all smoke until it actually shows up.

Besides I can just see all our Walmart friends saying what, spend $500 for a new DVD player when my $79 player works great. Plus, you mean I have to pay $30-40 for an HD DVD dic. Heck, I can buy a regular new realease DVD for $20 and if I wait a month or two the price drops to $10-15. Ain't America great.

I'm really impressed with the visual quality of HD TV; however content is another matter. I wish there was more HD TV available that would appeal to someone over the mental age of 13.

Back to HD/BR. Personally I'm sitting this one out until we have a clear winner, assuming that either of these formats actually makes it with consumers, and the price of a DVD read/write player of the winning format drops to $400. By that time my TV, which only has componet inputs, will need replacing anyway. Until then I'm content to watch my LD and DVD collection on my present equipment.
post #44 of 2106
Quote:
Murch until Toshiba actually comes out with their HD DVD player at the announced feature/price point you have to realize that it's all vaporware. The announcement was probably meant to scare off other makers, a tactic favored by our Redmond brethren. The same holds true for BR, it's all smoke until it actually shows up.

I see your point but typically you can't pre-order vapor. Toshiba could be selling the players at or below cost but that's what Sony plans to do with the Playstation. Media costs are the next shoe to drop.

I don't expect HD media to take off until Mid 2007 into 2008 as we approach the shutoff of analog broadcasting in 2009. By then the price of players will be down to $199 and the walmart crowd may eyeball the platforms in droves.

One thing for sure. HD DVD has come out stronger than many expected if pricing is any indication.

Quote:
In the end, it didn't matter since laserdisc had the superior technology and industry support. Selectavision lasted three years. Laserdisc roughly 20 before being supplanted by DVDs.

Blu Ray doesn't offer a quantifiable picture quality advantage so it'll be interesting to see just how they do. I look forward to seeing this play out.
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post #45 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
That's because you're not using an embedded, hardware de-coder.

Um, wouldn't a hardware decoder perform better than a software one? I remember in the early days of DVD on computers, it was all hardware decoders (my Powerbook had a PC card I had to put in to watch DVDs), because the software couldn't keep up. Maybe the H.264 hardware decoders aren't up to snuff yet (but like 1984 said, that demo he saw was awhile ago), but I guess we will see.
post #46 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
Um, wouldn't a hardware decoder perform better than a software one? I remember in the early days of DVD on computers, it was all hardware decoders (my Powerbook had a PC card I had to put in to watch DVDs), because the software couldn't keep up. Maybe the H.264 hardware decoders aren't up to snuff yet (but like 1984 said, that demo he saw was awhile ago), but I guess we will see.

There's a lot of voodoo that goes on in any sort of MPEG decoding. A computer has the advantage of a deterministic datapath and a much larger memory space, so the algorithm can be implemented as is. For an embedded decoder, the algorithm usually cannot be implemented as is, due to memory constraints, parallel-ization, etc. THere's also the possibility that these early decoders were too prematurely pulled out from FPGA based designs -- or may be FPGA-based desings themselves -- and verilog/VHDL syntheses are inherently full of non-deterministic quirks.

So, that's your answer. I don't really expect you to understand much of the lingo, but it's too much to go through it all.
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post #47 of 2106
Panasonic announces Blu Ray Recordable pricing

LM-BE50DE
Rewritable, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$59.99

LM-BE25DE
Rewritable, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$24.99

LM-BR50DE
Write once, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$42.99

LM-BR25DE
Write once, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$17.99
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post #48 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
There's a lot of voodoo that goes on in any sort of MPEG decoding. A computer has the advantage of a deterministic datapath and a much larger memory space, so the algorithm can be implemented as is. For an embedded decoder, the algorithm usually cannot be implemented as is, due to memory constraints, parallel-ization, etc. THere's also the possibility that these early decoders were too prematurely pulled out from FPGA based designs -- or may be FPGA-based desings themselves -- and verilog/VHDL syntheses are inherently full of non-deterministic quirks.

So, that's your answer. I don't really expect you to understand much of the lingo, but it's too much to go through it all.

I know about FPGA and verilog, we went over those in one of my classes last semester (I am a comp sci major). I actually had to write some crap using verilog and LogicWorks (fun).

What your saying makes sense to a degree. But what I don't get (and if its too much to explain so be it), but if the specs have been written for H.264, then isn't it just a matter of following those specs when designing a hardware decoder? Its seems like the most complex part would be the encoder (which could be done in software for the short term, if hardware based encoders and mature enough yet), since an encoder would need to be examining the footage to find how best to apply the capabilities of a given codec. A decoder seems like it would be rather simple to develop, and to develop without there being many visible artifacts...

Like I said, maybe its just because its early, and these problems are because the encoders and decoders weren't ready for primetime. But I would wager to say that given time, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be using the more advanced codecs over MPEG2.
post #49 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Panasonic announces Blu Ray Recordable pricing

LM-BE50DE
Rewritable, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$59.99

LM-BE25DE
Rewritable, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$24.99

LM-BR50DE
Write once, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$42.99

LM-BR25DE
Write once, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$17.99

What's your point? DVD-R media started out at similarly high prices in 1999, but had dropped to under $10 by 2001 and 30¢ by 2005. I notice you're not quoting any prices for HD-DVD recordable media. Could it be because nobody's announced any? And weren't you gleefully siding with Microsoft in saying that the 50GB dual layer Blu-ray discs were never going to see the light of day? What does this announcement say about that?
post #50 of 2106
Quote:
What's your point?

Did I post something offensive?
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post #51 of 2106
He must have somehow read a "gee, these things are overpriced" attitude into your post. Which there isn't. Oh well.
post #52 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Kolchak
What's your point? DVD-R media started out at similarly high prices in 1999, but had dropped to under $10 by 2001 and 30¢ by 2005. I notice you're not quoting any prices for HD-DVD recordable media. Could it be because nobody's announced any? And weren't you gleefully siding with Microsoft in saying that the 50GB dual layer Blu-ray discs were never going to see the light of day? What does this announcement say about that?

the prices really aren't that obnoxious when you think about it...
i'd just hate to burn a coaster on those suckas!
post #53 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
He must have somehow read a "gee, these things are overpriced" attitude into your post. Which there isn't. Oh well.

Apparently you haven't read his past posts. Otherwise you would know that was exactly the attitude intended. He hates Blu-Ray as much as I hate HD-DVD. Not related but did anyone see the new Series 3 TiVo models? Holy crap!

http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html

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post #54 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Read this really biased and inaccurate article from CNet...

http://news.com.com/HD+DVD+backers+p...l?tag=nefd.top

Among the inaccuracies, the article tries to make it out as if Blu-Ray players will not be backward compatible with existing DVDs by stating...

"One of the chief advantages of the format, as compared with the Blu-ray format supported by Sony and others, is that it is compatible with existing DVDs..."

Anyhow, at least I did get a chuckle from the article in the form of HD-DVD's evolutionary (not revolutionary) player that some think is owning Blu-Ray...

"Kevin Collins, a senior program manager at Microsoft, told the audience of about 200 reporters that he was going to show them how phenomenal HD DVD viewing was. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the movie on Toshiba's HD DVD player to play after several attempts."

Does this suprise anyone? I could totally see Toshiba rushing their hardware to market with all sorts of bugs, much to their own demise. Furthermore, it doesn't suprise me that a Microsoftee was at the helm of the player when it decided not to work. Is it just me or does this sort of thing happen a lot with Microsoft-backed products? Preferably, I don't want Microsoft anywhere near my home theatre given their history.

Anyhow, I really don't see Toshiba and company getting that much of a head start as both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are waiting for the final spec on AACS before either of them can launch.
post #55 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Samsung Taunts HD-DVD Camp...

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28769

I guess we aren't the only ones who think Toshiba appears desperate...
post #56 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by 1984
The Sony Playstation 3 will do 1080/60p


I have yet to see HDMI 1.3 equipped TV or even DVD units on the market. I probably haven't looked hard enough. Which means no 1080p/60Hz for current 1080p displays. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see full 1080p DVD titles on a BlueRay player, but it will take long time.... I think most consumers will be happy with HD lite and down scaling blue-ray contents to 720p or 1080i will hold it's benefits with those who already owns current HD display units. It will take a while before everyone starts buying 1080p capable displays for the 1080p players... On that note, HD-DVD (HD lite format) for most consumers will not matter, because HD vs HD lite is not that much of a difference as 480i to 720p and especially if you already own 720p/1080i displays. However, market dominance takes place with industrial support and format availability to consumers and Blue Ray seems to have a head start for now...though.

I personally don't care what format they release on the next DVD titles as long as they can put on good quality contents on the HD/BR DVD.... poorly mastered 1080p DVD's will look like crap compared to well mastered 480p contents. So, the formats don't really mean anything, however, the quality of source will on the screen.
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post #57 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by marzetta7

Anyhow, at least I did get a chuckle from the article in the form of HD-DVD's evolutionary (not revolutionary) player that some think is owning Blu-Ray...

"Kevin Collins, a senior program manager at Microsoft, told the audience of about 200 reporters that he was going to show them how phenomenal HD DVD viewing was. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the movie on Toshiba's HD DVD player to play after several attempts."

Does this suprise anyone? I could totally see Toshiba rushing their hardware to market with all sorts of bugs, much to their own demise. Furthermore, it doesn't suprise me that a Microsoftee was at the helm of the player when it decided not to work. Is it just me or does this sort of thing happen a lot with Microsoft-backed products? Preferably, I don't want Microsoft anywhere near my home theatre given their history.

That is what I witnessed. The player kept overheating. That and the digital artifacts which I was shocked to see with hardware decoding. I'm not too fond of Toshiba quality. I really wouldn't want something that Microsoft pushes either. I like the fact that if I don't like the Blu-Ray player from Sony I could get one from Pioneer, JVC, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer, etc.

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post #58 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by 1984
Apparently you haven't read his past posts. Otherwise you would know that was exactly the attitude intended. He hates Blu-Ray as much as I hate HD-DVD. Not related but did anyone see the new Series 3 TiVo models? Holy crap!

http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html

No...I admit the price is higher than I thought it would be but I expect similar pricing from HD DVD recordable media. Tivo Series3 rocks. Finally they get it on the 3rd try. My Mother will buy one as soon as they hit. She's been waiting for HD Tivo.

Interesting article. Blu Ray players may not have full interactive layer
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post #59 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
I know about FPGA and verilog, we went over those in one of my classes last semester (I am a comp sci major). I actually had to write some crap using verilog and LogicWorks (fun).

What your saying makes sense to a degree. But what I don't get (and if its too much to explain so be it), but if the specs have been written for H.264, then isn't it just a matter of following those specs when designing a hardware decoder?

First of all, we know that there are artifacts in hardware MPEG-4 systems. So we can deduce that there is some problem with the hardware.

You can license the algorithm, which is presumably documented in a datasheet and also implemented in C. It is far too expensive to just dedicate a CPU and memory to run the algorithm as given in C. So it needs to be synthesized into Hardware. VLSI design is a huge can of worms. That's really enough said. Artifacts presumably occur whenever there's a slight mistiming or botched calculation -- and remember that these devices do not have proper FPUs. MPEG has predictive encoding, so errors will carry through until the next key frame, yielding artifacts.

Beyond this, all I can say is that designing hardware isn't the excercise in determinism that design software is. With hardware, you have to deal with the real world, which has a lot more uncertainty than a software system.
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post #60 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Picture of Sony's new Blu-Ray player...




Picture of Samung's new Blu-Ray player...




Picture of Panasonic's new Blu-Ray player...

post #61 of 2106

That article doesn't make much sense. I like this part:

"The watch-word for Blu-ray players with full BD-J capabilities - and with other features the basic players may to omit, such as recording capability - is full-profile."

So they consider a player that omits recording a basic model? Huh? SInce when do players record? That's an entirely different product.

Honestly, I just want to watch the movie and extras that come on the disc I just bought. I'm so sick of those long, drawn out animated sequences used when selecting scenes. Just go to the damn scene already.

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post #62 of 2106
Why are those Blu ray players so big? I assume it's because audio-video-philes are a foolish bunch and think bigger means better. I suppose we ARE talking about the same folks who still think tube amps are good. (My oscilloscope thinks differently, by the way)
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post #63 of 2106
Interesting article over at Maccentral :

Quote:
The BD-P1000 player will cost US$1,000

So now the pricing has come out. It looks to be $500 vs $1000 for the first gen of each.

Quote:
...and will be able to output high-definition video on an HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) at 720p and 1080i (720 lines progressive scanning and 1,080 lines interlaced scanning) resolutions. Thats the same as the Toshiba players and means that both first-generation high-definition optical disc players wont be able to output a signal at 1080p, which is considered the best of several high-definition picture standards.

This was the big thing being harped on by Blu-Ray guys, the fact that Blu-Ray was 1080p and HD-DVD was only 1080i. But it looks like both will be the same at the start.

And this little bit isn't good:

Quote:
Samsungs April launch could be delayed if BD Java, the standard for interactive features on Blu-ray Discs, isnt completed in time.

BD Java is one thing that is still being worked out. The timetable, as I understand it, is late March, said Sanduski. So thats why [our timetable is] end of April. We think we can do it.
post #64 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Why are those Blu ray players so big? I assume it's because audio-video-philes are a foolish bunch and think bigger means better. I suppose we ARE talking about the same folks who still think tube amps are good. (My oscilloscope thinks differently, by the way)

Your ears are a better tool for this purpose than an oscilloscope. Tube amps are so much better than solid state amps that only somebody who has not listened to the difference could scoff. Do you measure sex with your scientific tools? ("I can tell she would be a better lover because her measurments are more perfect, my micrometer says so"...).

Also, your oscilloscope should be telling you about the horrible solid state behavior at clipping. A square wave is a tweeter killer, you won't blow a tweeter with a tube amp. An oscilloscope will also not tell you the distributions of harmonic distortion - odd orders (like from solid state) sound much worse than even order (like from tube amps) even at orders of magnitude lower levels.


And bigger often means better - choke loaded power supplies are huge, and stuff with good power supplies sound much better than stuff with switched power supplies. Good capacitors are often large (but not all large caps are good), solid chassis prevent EMF interference and vibration, etc.
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post #65 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Your ears are a better tool for this purpose than an oscilloscope.

. . .

And bigger often means better -



I didn't really want to get into this, but I did at least prove that an audiophile in the audience thinks bigger is better. I could tell why you're wrong about tubes ("my ears are better than science" is a bullshit argument) but you wouldn't listen anyway, so there's no point.

Getting back to the topic at hand . . .

You can't deny that in an age of miniturization, the Blu-ray players are un-necessarily oversized. When the whole thing is running very low power VLSI digital components, there's not a whole lot of need for radical EMI shielding or super-clean power. The audio from a Disc is MPEG encoded, so the only place where any sort of clean power is needed is the link to an analog A/V receiver (if you actually use it instead of the digital output), and it can be independently shielded, grounded, and powered. I doubt it's more than a 150mA draw. . . and that's a very generous estimate.

Really, the only people who pack boards full of discrete logic these days are music people, partly because they need to deliver a lot of power, and partly because they don't know better. I guarantee these players are full of empty space.
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post #66 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
I guarantee these players are full of empty space.

If you get a chance, take a look at the insides of a Sony SCD-1 SACD player. It is large, 35 lbs, very full, and amazing.
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post #67 of 2106
It has been announced that the Pioneer player is using the Sigma chip, which does everything on one chip. Given that Blu-ray players don't have amps inside, it's gotta be empty space.
post #68 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
So now the pricing has come out. It looks to be $500 vs $1000 for the first gen of each.

To be quickly changed as soon as the PS3 is released, likely by June. All of a sudden, a multipurpose console with Blu-ray costs the same as a standalone HD-DVD player. Meanwhile, Microsoft eventually puts HD-DVD on the Xbox 360, but only as an add-on that will cost at least a couple of hundred bucks. And they can't build it in because it's already been reported that they're already losing quite a bit of money on each 360 they sell.

Big argument for PS3: If Blu-ray flops, at least the PS3 is still useful as a game console. Meanwhile, I'd be leery of paying $500 for a standalone that may become as much a doorstop as a Divx player.
post #69 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
I didn't really want to get into this, but I did at least prove that an audiophile in the audience thinks bigger is better. I could tell why you're wrong about tubes ("my ears are better than science" is a bullshit argument) but you wouldn't listen anyway, so there's no point.

I suppose you think CDs are the pinnacle of audio quality huh? Digital is not always better. It's simply more convenient. Staring at an oscilloscope isn't going to tell you a damn thing about how it's going to sound. You're not a machine. Are you? The same goes for video signals. You can get a great looking waveform from a digital tv broadcast with a poor picture and a great looking picture with a bad looking waveform. There are just too many variables. I've heard many Tube amps that sounded better than SS ones. I've heard some pretty awful Tube amps as well. Do a double blind test. Use your ears to decide. They are all that matter.

Getting back to the topic at hand such as it is...

Quote:
[B}You can't deny that in an age of miniturization, the Blu-ray players are un-necessarily oversized.[/B]

The HD-DVD player from Toshiba is just as big so I don't know what you're getting on about. Besides, I've had some of those slim components and they've always been trouble due to overheating.

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post #70 of 2106
...

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post #71 of 2106
ok, i just read the articles.

as it stands right now in my opinion 500 vs 1000 dollars is no match, HD-DVD wins in the market.


the life of blu-ray rests on the ps3.
post #72 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
ok, i just read the articles.

as it stands right now in my opinion 500 vs 1000 dollars is no match, HD-DVD wins in the market.


the life of blu-ray rests on the ps3.

It depends. Is the early adopter market really going to scoff at $500 if it means extra features aimed at quality? If you've been hanging out for high quality pictures why would you cut it short and not go for quality in all respects?

The war will never be decided at that price range anyway and not in 2006.
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post #73 of 2106
what do you mean all respects?


blu-ray is not that much farther in quality vs hd-dvd.


picture quality can go so far until you cease to notice it.
post #74 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
what do you mean all respects?


blu-ray is not that much farther in quality vs hd-dvd.


picture quality can go so far until you cease to notice it.

I'm not even talking about compression artifacts here yet. Components matter.

There is a big difference between a $50 DVD player and one worth a few hundred. There are leagues of difference in audio output quality, image processing, customisability, etc. By the looks of it so far the Blu-Ray camp is aiming squarely at the people who care about very high quality and these people won't mind the $1000+ price tag if it gets them there. These people are also likely to be the early adopters as they are either purists or have the disposable income.

$500 is still too high for consumer mass adoption. If you're willing to pay that much for a DVD player, HD or not, you're willing to spend more to make sure you have the ultimate viewing experience. Otherwise you may as well wait 6 months for the first round of price drops.

Have no doubt if the Blu-Ray camp wants cheaper players they can do it too. The parts in the PS3 are meant to cost only around $100. Admittedly Cell and RSX handle the decode but there's still room there to get to the $500 price tag if they want.
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post #75 of 2106
no, sorry 1000 does not warrant the quality difference between the hd-dvd player and the blu-ray one.
post #76 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Elixir
no, sorry 1000 does not warrant the quality difference between the hd-dvd player and the blu-ray one.

HD-DVD has so little momentum compared to Blu-ray, so the $500 might not be as wise an investment as a PS3 - you might be throwing the unit away later.
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post #77 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
HD-DVD has so little momentum compared to Blu-ray, so the $500 might not be as wise an investment as a PS3 - you might be throwing the unit away later.

Momentum? HD DVD can be preordered right now at Amazon, Tweeter, Crutchfield or Best Buy. Blu Ray has the 2x price, no ship date and a bunch of Kolchak conjecture about price and availability. Nay...the momentum is from the platform that is ready for order and cheaper.

You guys have an interesting flavor of RDF. Steve Jobs doesn't have a thing on you.

Quote:
Big argument for PS3: If Blu-ray flops, at least the PS3 is still useful as a game console. Meanwhile, I'd be leery of paying $500 for a standalone that may become as much a doorstop as a Divx player.

You call "this" a big arguement? If my HD DVD flops I still have a HD player because I can burn HD Red Laser discs. Your argument is null and void before it even started for both platforms.
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post #78 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Momentum? HD DVD can be preordered right now at Amazon, Tweeter, Crutchfield or Best Buy. Blu Ray has the 2x price, no ship date and a bunch of Kolchak conjecture about price and availability. Nay...the momentum is from the platform that is ready for order and cheaper.

Yeah, being first always works out for the best doesn't it?

Why don't you just place your preorder for the Toshiba HD-DVD player already and be done with it? Put your money where your mouth is and support your format choice. Get the HD-DVD player and don't look back if you're so sure Blu-Ray is a failure.

The Sony PS3 will do 1080/60p and cost around $500 when released. A couple manufacturers that were waiting on Toshiba's announcement are planning on releasing Blu-Ray players in the $500 to $700 range this summer. Another manufacturer has even stated they will be dropping the price they announced at CES in order to compete with Toshiba's pricing. I think you can guess who that is.

This preorder business is bullshit anyway. Any one of the Blu-Ray manufacturers can do the same if they wish but why should they? It is a cry for help. An act of desperation. An all or nothing attempt to get a foothold in a market it is being pushed out of. It's nothing but a marketing ploy to gain mindshare from the more uneducated consumer. Will it work? I think it will to some extent, yes, but most will be talking a wait and see approach to all this. In the end it will prove futile.

I just feel sorry for those who don't know any better. Those who don't understand the risks.

     197619842014  

     Where were you when the hammer flew?  

 

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     197619842014  

     Where were you when the hammer flew?  

 

MacBook Pro Retina, 13", 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD

iPhone 5s • iPad mini Retina • Chromebook Pixel • Nexus 7

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post #79 of 2106
1984- you make too many bold statements.

you dont know shit about the ps3 yet.



if someone puts out a blu-ray player at around 500-700 dollars dont you think the hd-dvd manufacturers could release for less? hell the player could drop to 200-300 dollars by this summer.
post #80 of 2106
Quote:
Yeah, being first always works out for the best doesn't it?

It helps. Don't forget right now HD DVD is half the cost of today's announced Blu Ray.

Quote:
The Sony PS3 will do 1080/60p and cost around $500 when released

1080p/60 is useless. No movies will be delivered in that format for a LONG time. Sony was surprisingly quiet about the PS3. I'm not so sure they are sure what they can price it at. $500 is a guestimate versus multiple HD DVD players being $500. I have a bird in my hand..you have none.

Quote:
This preorder business is bullshit anyway. Any one of the Blu-Ray manufacturers can do the same if they wish but why should they? It is a cry for help. An act of desperation.

I think not. It's a way of queueing people for purchase. Nothing more ..nothing less.

Oh yeah HD DVD has Miramax and Studio Canal in Europe just went HD DVD exclusively for now.

Rember ...it wasn't me that was stating that HD DVD was DOA it was fanatical Blu Ray supporters. Thus I don't have to jump through hoops or backpedal to try and explain why my format is more expensive and not shipping on time and may have missing interactivity features.

Price trumps all people. The best you can do right now is merely match HD DVD pricing. I've told you all along Blu Ray was going to be expensive and you rebuffed me with economies of scale arguements and other blather. After CES I've even more inclined to go with my intuition over your statements. Haven't led me wrong yet.
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