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Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (2006) - Page 22

post #841 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Get this. Sony's BD player delayed until late Oct!!

My oh my what a turn of events. Toshiba's going to get quit a lead by the time BD players are shipping in quantity.

Not to much of a lead if they only sell 10,000-12,000 units. See this article...

http://news.com.com/Blu-ray+Disc+rea...3-6084661.html

They peg Toshiba units sold at 10,000. Not going to garner anyone supremacy in the HD market. We are still clearly in an early adoption market and will be well into next year. So don't get to excited there Murch.
post #842 of 2106
No they didn't peg anything. The quote is

Quote:
Toshiba won't say how many players it has shipped, but sources peg the initial rollout at about 10,000 units.

Since the source was unnamed this is basically hearsay.

Tough week for you guys. Suck it up..you'll be ok.
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post #843 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
No they didn't peg anything. The quote is

Since the source was unnamed this is basically hearsay.

Tough week for you guys. Suck it up..you'll be ok.

Of course it is...

Indeed, it has been a tough week for Blu-ray. I know Blu-ray will be OK, especially when they become the next HD format.
post #844 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
No they didn't peg anything.

Since the source was unnamed this is basically hearsay.

Tough week for you guys. Suck it up..you'll be ok.

And yet, if the sales figures were good, don't you think Toshiba would be yelling them from the highest mountaintop? I think it says something that Toshiba wants to keep that figure under wraps.

For someone who claims to be format-agnostic, you sure do take glee in any misstep Blu-ray takes. You'd better hope you're not wrong, because nobody here will ever let you live it down. Not to mention your little gloating with "I won round one." Sounds an awful lot like "shock and awe" to me, and I think we all know how well that campaign has turned out in the years since. And we don't have to hide our distaste for HD-DVD, either, since we don't go around claiming, "we'll be okay with whichever one wins."
post #845 of 2106
Nope.

Toshiba is an old school conservative Japanese company. Their policy is that they don't release results.

I do indeed take glee in Blu-Ray missteps. I'm growing weary of the constant proprietary formats that Sony pushes. I like minidisc and bought a home player and portable. I liked the idea of SACD..but like everything Sony has to have their own format complete with gonzo royalties and they always find a way to screw it up.

Toshiba is a company that doesn't embody the ego of a Sony but they do a damn good job with their products. Their solution was elegant enough and met the needs of Hollywood. Why not root for them? Why should I encourage yet another foray into "Hot Invented Here" syndrome from Sony?

I've supported HD DVD from day 1..no one can call me a fair weather fan. Someone has to deliver a few reality checks around here.
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post #846 of 2106
//Someone has to deliver a few reality checks around here.//

not much of that over the last 5/6 pages on this thread from ANYONE.

just a load of horn blowing and i tells ya's.. just you wait, but you cant rely on's and toy-from-pram-throwing.

still its fun to read
post #847 of 2106
This is good news for Blu-Ray:

Much Cheapness!!

While I want Blu-Ray to prevail, I hope they price HD-DVDs this low too, that way the consumer wins.
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post #848 of 2106
Quote:
While I want Blu-Ray to prevail,

So you want a format that has

Twice the player costs
Twice the DRM
Had to to forced into support Mandatory Managed Copy
Has a weak interactive layer
Spotty backwards compatibility

to prevail? Is it THAT easy to buy peoples allegiance. Give them a little bit more storage space and they'll let you kick'em in the teeth.
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post #849 of 2106
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post #850 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
So you want a format that has

Twice the player costs
Twice the DRM
Had to to forced into support Mandatory Managed Copy
Has a weak interactive layer
Spotty backwards compatibility

to prevail? Is it THAT easy to buy peoples allegiance. Give them a little bit more storage space and they'll let you kick'em in the teeth.

I want strong studio support, interesting hardware AND more storage space.

And considering how buggy Tosh's player is, yes I'll pay more (although £425 isn't more).
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post #851 of 2106
Seriously, murch, everyone has heard your spiel 1000 times by now. I'm not sure you've convinced anyone. This discussion is now little more than a pissing contest between you and [pretty much] everyone else.

The only thing you've really managed to accomplish is to alienate a lot of people who might have considered HD-DVD othewrwise.
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post #852 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Nope.

Toshiba is an old school conservative Japanese company. Their policy is that they don't release results.

I do indeed take glee in Blu-Ray missteps. I'm growing weary of the constant proprietary formats that Sony pushes. I like minidisc and bought a home player and portable. I liked the idea of SACD..but like everything Sony has to have their own format complete with gonzo royalties and they always find a way to screw it up.

Toshiba is a company that doesn't embody the ego of a Sony but they do a damn good job with their products. Their solution was elegant enough and met the needs of Hollywood. Why not root for them? Why should I encourage yet another foray into "Hot Invented Here" syndrome from Sony?

I've supported HD DVD from day 1..no one can call me a fair weather fan. Someone has to deliver a few reality checks around here.

It's a good thing Sony isn't the only one pushing Blu-ray, it will do you good to remember that. So, if in your perception, Sony is always screwing up, then I surely think Panasonic, Pioneer, Sharp, Philips, TDK, Dell, Hitachi, LG, HP, will pick up where you think Sony screws up.

And Toshiba's format isn't propreitary? Complete with Microsoft iHD and at times with VC-1? Both formats have some form of proprietary functions in them. Moreover, Blu-ray has royalties going to numerous companies, so don't try to paint the picture that somehow Sony is going home with all the royalties. This is the main reason of many that the agrument about Blu-ray being the next Betamax is so flawed.

Regarding Toshiba meeting the needs of Hollywood, this still remains to be seen. Especially considering that a lot of the HD DVD movies released currently are already getting dangerously close to the 30 GB maximum storage capacity of HD DVD even when using H.264/VC-1 and compressed audio (with no HD extras). Also, especially considering that they have met the needs of only the minority of Hollywood, as the majority of Hollywood doesn't appear to think so.

Regardless of the missteps of both camps (HD DVD or Blu-ray), the fact is is that we are still in an early adoption market, and the format war will continue on through to at least 2008.
post #853 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Blackcat
I want strong studio support, interesting hardware AND more storage space.

And considering how buggy Tosh's player is, yes I'll pay more (although £425 isn't more).


You mean how it "was" buggy. Very little complaints after the 1.2 firmware update. Even with the bugs the avg HD DVD discs is noticably superior to most of the Blu-Ray discs shipping. That won't change until Sony gets VC-1 on their discs or DL discs.

We'll have to see about Studio support. Frankly I think we see at least one Major announce movies for HD DVD. The latest delay of the Sony BD player until Oct should seal that deal.

Interesting hardware...then Blu-Ray isn't your champion. No USB ports...no ethernet on a player that is 2x as expensive. You gotta ask yourself just where are they putting the extra money? In their pockets I presume.

Besides what's more exciting than this?




Funny thing is not only has Toshiba beat the BDA to market with players they're going to beat them in recorders too. Shipping mid July before Sony even has their player out the door. You guys are betting on the wrong horse.
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post #854 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison

Sweet!

But Sony is capible of doing a flagship product like this, like they did with the SCD-1. The SCD-1 didn't push SACD into a win, and neither will this.

Mass market for HD video is with the PS3 or nothing.
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post #855 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Seriously, murch, everyone has heard your spiel 1000 times by now. I'm not sure you've convinced anyone. This discussion is now little more than a pissing contest between you and [pretty much] everyone else.

The only thing you've really managed to accomplish is to alienate a lot of people who might have considered HD-DVD othewrwise.

I figure i'm good for about a million cycles on the spiel'o'meter. I'm sure I've helped at least someone cut through the hype. It may be a pissing contest but the series of events clearly show that I'm not the one taking most of the piss. I'm naturally adversarial, a son of a lawyer with legal aspirations of my own. I'm simply not going to capitulate. Truth is i've been proven wrong very few times her. I don't worry about following the crowd. I'm very into discussing things from a specific context.
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post #856 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
So you want a format that has

Twice the player costs
Twice the DRM
Had to to forced into support Mandatory Managed Copy
Has a weak interactive layer
Spotty backwards compatibility

to prevail? Is it THAT easy to buy peoples allegiance. Give them a little bit more storage space and they'll let you kick'em in the teeth.

Twice the player costs - If you are talking standalone player costs without regards to subsidizing, then true, but the PS3 is the same cost at $499 so if we are talking about subsidized players like both Toshiba models and the PS3, then you are false. Cost is the same.

Twice the DRM - Yes, Blu-ray provides more protection with BD+ and ROM-mark on top of AACS that both HD DVD and Blu-ray will use, but does this necessarily equate to "twice" the DRM. Don't know, it could provide 1 and 1/2 the DRM or 3 times the DRM. But, I do know this, the majority of Hollywood seems to deem it necessary seeing how they back Blu-ray. Are you just upset that it will be harder for you to pirate movies? I wouldn't worry to much, there will probably be a crack soon after Blu-ray reaches domination.

Had to to forced into support Mandatory Managed Copy - Now you are just reaching. You don't know when they decided to incorporate the MMC spec inside Blu-ray and even more so that they were forced. Besides, does it matter? They support MMC, so your point is irrevalent.

Has a weak interactive layer - And this is why Java is used widely in the entertainment business, hmm-hmm? Because it is weak, right? Any more FUDtastic points? Oh wait, see the next statement you made...

Spotty backwards compatibility - Because two players that you have found don't support only CD playback (Sony and Pioneer), you claim spotty backwards compatibility. Even though, the current Samsung release plays them, the Philips player will, the Sharp player will, and the Panasonic model that was announced today and shipping in September will? Furthermore, all will be and are DVD backward compatible, so I don't see not having CD playback on two players is a big point for you. Besides, with Sony and Pioneer pushing back their release dates, they very well include the playback of CDs as an option when they release.

Any more FUD you need me to shoot down?
post #857 of 2106
Ugh. The last thing the country needs is another lawyer. (some sarcasm)

Please, though, if you do become a lawyer, stick to civil law, which may be the last vestige of our judicial & court system that actually functions in a somewhat positive way.
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post #858 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
You mean how it "was" buggy. Very little complaints after the 1.2 firmware update. Even with the bugs the avg HD DVD discs is noticably superior to most of the Blu-Ray discs shipping. That won't change until Sony gets VC-1 on their discs or DL discs.

We'll have to see about Studio support. Frankly I think we see at least one Major announce movies for HD DVD. The latest delay of the Sony BD player until Oct should seal that deal.

Ahh there's the FUD I was talking about. Still hoping for Disney to jump ship? Keep hoping, as it is a bit late or dare I say early, to be thinking any Hollywood studio will be defecting to HD DVD. In reality, I think the studio you need to worry about is Paramount, who have yet to announce any titles for HD DVD...nor any announcenment to release them in the future...a bit disconcerting.

Quote:
Interesting hardware...then Blu-Ray isn't your champion. No USB ports...no ethernet on a player that is 2x as expensive. You gotta ask yourself just where are they putting the extra money? In their pockets I presume.

Besides what's more exciting than this?



Funny thing is not only has Toshiba beat the BDA to market with players they're going to beat them in recorders too. Shipping mid July before Sony even has their player out the door. You guys are betting on the wrong horse.

Wrong yet again Murch. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I heard you claim that you were wrong very few times here in another post. See this article...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062200362.html

Here is a bit of the article that I want to stress with you...

Toshiba has no intention of shipping the new machine, RD-A1, outside Japan and aims to sell 10,000 units by December.

Sony has been offering Blu-ray-based recorders since 2003, although its initial retail list price of 450,000 yen and a lack of software kept them from becoming widely adopted.


So how is Toshiba going to be first to market again? And, again, only in Japan? With yet, oh look, yet another 10,000 units. Your betting on a delusional horse.

Regarding "where they are putting the extra money," it is clear that the initial Blu-ray players are right in line with the cost of CD and DVD players were historically at launch and the reason being is they are recouping R&D costs. Whereas, if you look at the Toshiba player, it is subsidized as the Blu-ray standalone players are not, so your really not giving an honest and accurate statement when you look at the comparison. If you want to be accurate compare the cost of the subsidized Toshiba with the subsidized PS3,...oh, they are the same, wow go figure. $499, and the PS3 will sell in the millions, not thousands and play games, and have USB ports, and have and have a gigabit ethernet port, and output 1080i/1080P. I'd call that real interesting hardware.
post #859 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Some cool news...

http://www.hdmi.org/press/pr/pr_20060622.asp
Quote:
HDMI 1.3 DOUBLES BANDWIDTH, DELIVERS BILLIONS OF COLORS FOR HDTVs

High-Definition Multimedia Interface Also Adds Newest Digital Audio Formats, Mini Connector and Lip Sync

SUNNYVALE, Calif., June 22, 2006 The seven HDMI Founder companies (Hitachi, Ltd., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic), Royal Philips Electronics, Silicon Image, Inc., Sony Corp., Thomson, Inc. and Toshiba Corp.) today released a major enhancement of the High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) specification, the de facto standard digital interface for high definition consumer electronics. HDMI 1.3 will enable the next generation of HDTVs, PCs and DVD players to transmit and display content in billions of colors with unprecedented vividness and accuracy.

The HDMI 1.3 specification more than doubles HDMIs bandwidth and adds support for Deep Color technology, a broader color space, new digital audio formats, automatic audio/video synching capability (lip sync), and an optional smaller connector for use with personal photo and video devices. The update reflects the determination of the HDMI founders to ensure HDMI continues evolving ahead of future consumer demands.

The update arrives at a time of strong momentum for the HDMI standard. HDMI Licensing, LLC today announced that more than 400 makers of consumer electronics and PC products worldwide have adopted HDMI. Market researcher In-Stat expects 60 million devices featuring HDMI to ship in 2006.

PLAYSTATION®3 will be the most advanced computer platform for enjoying a wide range of entertainment content, including the latest games and HD movies, in the home, said Ken Kutaragi, president and group CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. By introducing the next-generation HDMI 1.3 technology, with its high speed and deep color capabilities, PS3 will push the boundaries of audiovisual quality to the next level of more natural and smoother expression on the latest large flat panel displays.

"HDMI is an established cornerstone for the whole High Definition TV industry and Philips is extremely pleased to see such significant improvements for picture and sound quality with this new version, said Johan van de Ven, CTO and Senior Vice President of Philips Consumer Electronics. We look forward to continuing to work with other HDMI Founder companies to extend the scope of HDMI across new devices and applications, while remaining entirely committed to ensuring full backward compatibility with existing products."

With the adoption of Deep Color and the xvYCC color space, HDMI 1.3 removes the previous interface-related restrictions on color selection. The interface will no longer be a constraining pipe that forces all content to fit within a limited set of colors, unlike all previous video interfaces.

New HDMI 1.3 capabilities include:

Higher speed: HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth from 165MHz (4.95 gigabits per second) to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future high definition display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds.
Deep color: HDMI 1.3 supports 30-bit, 36-bit and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification.
Lets HDTVs and other displays go from millions of colors to billions of colors
Eliminates on-screen color banding, for smooth tonal transitions and subtle gradations between colors
Enables increased contrast ratio
Can represent many times more shades of gray between black and white. At 30-bit pixel depth, four times more shades of gray would be the minimum, and the typical improvement would be eight times or more
Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 removes virtually all limits on color selection.
Next-generation xvYCC color space supports 1.8 times as many colors as existing HDTV signals
Lets HDTVs display colors more accurately
Enables displays with more natural and vivid colors
New mini connector: With small portable devices such as HD camcorders and still cameras demanding seamless connectivity to HDTVs, HDMI 1.3 offers a new, smaller form factor connector option.
Lip Sync: Because consumer electronics devices are using increasingly complex digital signal processing to enhance the clarity and detail of the content, synchronization of video and audio in user devices has become a greater challenge and could potentially require complex end-user adjustments. HDMI 1.3 incorporates an automatic audio/video synching capability that allows devices to perform this synchronization automatically with accuracy.
New lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMIs current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby® Digital and DTS), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new, lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby® TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.
Products implementing the new HDMI specification will continue to be backward compatible with earlier HDMI products.

The dramatic increase in maximum speed achieved in HDMI 1.3 will enable HDMI to stay far ahead of the bandwidth demands of future high definition source and display devices, said Leslie Chard, president of HDMI Licensing, LLC. As the de facto standard digital interface for the high definition and consumer electronics markets, HDMI is implementing the most innovative technologies today to fulfill the demands of tomorrows consumers.

The latest HDMI specification can be downloaded at no cost by visiting www.hdmi.org.
post #860 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Ugh. The last thing the country needs is another lawyer. (some sarcasm)

Please, though, if you do become a lawyer, stick to civil law, which may be the last vestige of our judicial & court system that actually functions in a somewhat positive way.


I know <smile> It's not for the money. I'm too old to go the big firm route. My mother does education and disability amongst over stuff so no ambulance chasing here. Marzetta7 and I are cut from the same stone. He's stubborn as hell and so am I. Actuall he's more stubborn..he won't buy a HD DVD player and I damn near bought the Terminator disc on Blu-Ray for $12 just to be ready until common sense kicked in. I won't have a PS3 for months.

Quote:
Wrong yet again Murch. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I heard you claim that you were wrong very few times here in another post. See this article...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6062200362.html

Here is a bit of the article that I want to stress with you...

Toshiba has no intention of shipping the new machine, RD-A1, outside Japan and aims to sell 10,000 units by December.

Marzetta7 I "do" give you more credit than that. Thus I purposely avoided stating that they would ship in the US. Looking at the specs it's clear that this unit would benefit Japan more than America which loves DVR and not optical records(which outsell players in Japan)

I even stated something like this on the Blu-Ray forums

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=1864.

Though thank your for that link. Confirms what I assumed would be the case.
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post #861 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by marzetta7
Twice the player costs - If you are talking standalone player costs without regards to subsidizing, then true, but the PS3 is the same cost at $499 so if we are talking about subsidized players like both Toshiba models and the PS3, then you are false. Cost is the same.

I'm sort of backing off of talk about the subsidized stuff. It can't be proven yet. The PS3 doesn't ship until November.


Twice the DRM - Yes, Blu-ray provides more protection with BD+ and ROM-mark on top of AACS that both HD DVD and Blu-ray will use, but does this necessarily equate to "twice" the DRM. Don't know, it could provide 1 and 1/2 the DRM or 3 times the DRM. But, I do know this, the majority of Hollywood seems to deem it necessary seeing how they back Blu-ray. Are you just upset that it will be harder for you to pirate movies? I wouldn't worry to much, there will probably be a crack soon after Blu-ray reaches domination.

Marzetta 1+1= 2 or twice. I don't know what math you're attempting to demonstrate here. Sure studios love the feature of extra DRM but how does that benefit you?

Had to to forced into support Mandatory Managed Copy - Now you are just reaching. You don't know when they decided to incorporate the MMC spec inside Blu-ray and even more so that they were forced. Besides, does it matter? They support MMC, so your point is irrevalent.
The BDA was pretty non-committal about MMC. BD+ and MMC would seem to be a conflict.

Has a weak interactive layer - And this is why Java is used widely in the entertainment business, hmm-hmm? Because it is weak, right? Any more FUDtastic points? Oh wait, see the next statement you made...

Can you explain why Java is better than iHD?

Spotty backwards compatibility - Because two players that you have found don't support only CD playback (Sony and Pioneer), you claim spotty backwards compatibility. Even though, the current Samsung release plays them, the Philips player will, the Sharp player will, and the Panasonic model that was announced today and shipping in September will? Furthermore, all will be and are DVD backward compatible, so I don't see not having CD playback on two players is a big point for you. Besides, with Sony and Pioneer pushing back their release dates, they very well include the playback of CDs as an option when they release.
Two players that don't support CD playback should enable me to proclaim CD support is Spotty right? How is that FUD when you just corroborate the lack of support in two different players?
Any more FUD you need me to shoot down?

I'm not sure you really shot anything down. CD playback is not guaranteed, BD players have twice the DRM and they still cost twice as much at least until Nov
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post #862 of 2106
Well I'd like to thank you all for an informative post on the battle between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I am fully aware of the need for one if not both in the immediate future, but I have some questions/comments concerning the need for either in the distant future as a medium for playing movies and games.

1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?
Outside of the space needed for the higher resolution and better quality audio what else is this going to be used for? Do we honestly believe that we are going to get more features for the same price? In most cases, the entertainment industry only gives more when they need to get the audience to open their wallets again and not before.

I get the boxed set compressed into one disc theory and I drool over the thought. This is cool for TV shows, but as I will explain later is already becoming outdated.

I am a very big fan of video games, in fact I work in the industry, and I just don't see the need for all this space. Granted more and more developers are crying that they can't fit everything on DVDs anymore but that doesn't mean that it's needed. Sure some developers can do marvelous things with FMVs and Audio (which take up the bulk of this space), but does more of them make a better game - almost everytime the answer is no.

2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?

HD is Digital Cable/Satellite first then Movies not the other way around. An HDTV would be pointless for most of the world if we could not eventually watch all of our daily programming with it as well as movies. With that said, we all know the direction the Cable companies and DSL providers are heading nowadays - On demand, high speed broadband, fiber to the curb, etc.... Where is there room for BR and HDDVD on the consumer side? They win on cost, convenience, and ROI.

TV shows are already downloadable is that just going to disappear? With the time it takes for a boxed set to come out where is the advantage of getting it on BD/HDDVD? The way I see it myself and most other people will download it, TIVO it, whatever it and then record it ourselves on to a BD or HD-DVD whatever format we prefer if at all, since we can always get them again.

Video games are still going to be on a hard copy format for the time being but all signs point towards other forms of distribution. For a bunch of reasons, the subscription model is taking the entertainment industry by storm. Granted all games are not going this route, but the ones targeted at the HD audience are at the very least exploring it.

Outside of the PS3 and Wii dropping - these are what's really really good in non-portable Video Games
Console: GTA - announces next-generation GTA will have episodic content through XBOX Live
PC: World of Warcraft - over 6 million subscribers online-only game
PC: Spore - this thing can probably fit on a CD and has more gameplay possibilities than anything out right now
Console: Xbox Live Arcade - don't even need to pop a disc in


With that said, I'm in the camp stating that neither will win in the consumer market and this is all just hype to sell more TVs. Blu-ray however has a chance to become something used for backups if they can cost-effectively achieve those 100GB and 200GB capacities.

The world has moved on since VHS and DVD and just like with HDTV we can't go back. Who wants to buy their collection all over again only to have it rereleased who knows how many more times? I already have an HDTV and a XBOX 360, so when the PS3 drops I'll grab mine like most other people because I get a 1st generation HD player that can be used to play exclusive games I could not play otherwise. However, I won't be buying their media, made that mistake two too many times. Rental companies get another life - NetFlix <<<----
post #863 of 2106
liquidjin

I'll take off my HD DVD hat and answer as squarely as I can.

Quote:
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?

For premium features size is an issue. Say you want lossless audio and HD video well you'd need 18Mbps for 7.1 Lossless audio on top of whatever you video bitrate you have. Only a 50GB disc is going to be able to give you a 2hr movie and 7.1 lossless audio. That's Blu-Ray right now because of the extra space. Some people feel that lossless audio though is overkill for the space it requires.

For video games I think people overestimate just how much space 3D textures take up. I don't expect to see 50GB PS3 games anytime soon. I think the way to deal with size is to have compressed textures on disc that get stored on a HDD option for the player and Massively Multiplayer online games handling the rest.

Quote:
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?

Yup in the next decade On Demand will eventually usurp both physical formats. I look for cable ops to start using the the more efficient codecs which will reduce the bitstarved macroblocking that I see on a daily basis with Comcast HD feeds. It's inevitable that On Demand will take over. In fact Microsoft and Disney persued iHD the interactive layers because it's small and can work in a IPTV environment. The writing is on the wall for those with large pipes. Eventually you'll just choose your movie and bam ..streamed to your HD with DVR like control.

I agree that we have to look at the sign of the times and realize that access trumps many things. Why spend $20 for that movie you will only watch a few times when you can just view it for a portion of that whenever you want?
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post #864 of 2106
this sounds like a HDDVDBluRayComboDrive, aka Superdrive II :

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32554

release date fits in schedule
post #865 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by liquidjin
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?

Thanks for the post, first off, and welcome to the forum.

I think you answered your own question on this one. You have the convenience of consolidated TV shows or movies on one disc, convenience of one disc or very little number of discs for backup purposes, and the convenience of extra storage for better video games. I think it comes down to what you define as "better" video games, because, as I see it, from a graphics and audio perspective, games have gotten better with time, and more storage. They ought to improve moreso given that they have a future-proof path of storage available to them, especially in regards to Blu-ray. If your referring to the game experience as being "better" as far as enjoyment or the theme is concerned, I think it is quite a debatable point as to whether or not games have gotten better.

Quote:
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?

HD is Digital Cable/Satellite first then Movies not the other way around. An HDTV would be pointless for most of the world if we could not eventually watch all of our daily programming with it as well as movies. With that said, we all know the direction the Cable companies and DSL providers are heading nowadays - On demand, high speed broadband, fiber to the curb, etc.... Where is there room for BR and HDDVD on the consumer side? They win on cost, convenience, and ROI.

TV shows are already downloadable is that just going to disappear? With the time it takes for a boxed set to come out where is the advantage of getting it on BD/HDDVD? The way I see it myself and most other people will download it, TIVO it, whatever it and then record it ourselves on to a BD or HD-DVD whatever format we prefer if at all, since we can always get them again.

Video games are still going to be on a hard copy format for the time being but all signs point towards other forms of distribution. For a bunch of reasons, the subscription model is taking the entertainment industry by storm. Granted all games are not going this route, but the ones targeted at the HD audience are at the very least exploring it.

In a nutshell, once the global network infrastructure can support it, I believe online distribution of full-length HD movies (in 1920 X 1080 resolution) or TV shows will be it, however, we are far from it, and in the meantime Blu-ray or HD DVD will find its place. Moreover, if the a la carte model from iTunes has shown anyone anything, people like to own the content they purchase not just subscribe to it, thus another reason why Blu-ray or HD DVD will find its place. Moreover, you have those individuals who want the most excellent quality, and not compressed versions of media or versions that are inferior found on cable,...again another reason why Blu-ray of HD DVD will continue to have its place.
Quote:
With that said, I'm in the camp stating that neither will win in the consumer market and this is all just hype to sell more TVs. Blu-ray however has a chance to become something used for backups if they can cost-effectively achieve those 100GB and 200GB capacities.

The world has moved on since VHS and DVD and just like with HDTV we can't go back. Who wants to buy their collection all over again only to have it rereleased who knows how many more times? I already have an HDTV and a XBOX 360, so when the PS3 drops I'll grab mine like most other people because I get a 1st generation HD player that can be used to play exclusive games I could not play otherwise. However, I won't be buying their media, made that mistake two too many times. Rental companies get another life - NetFlix <<<----

Who said anything about having to buy your whole collection again? If you don't want to, you don't have too. Both formats will upconvert your existing DVD media to either 1080i or 1080P. The fact is, with this generation of HD media in the form of Blu-ray or HD DVD, we can go back, at least with DVDs that we own and continue to enjoy them. Regarding purchasing any future media on disc, you say you won't,....but do you really mean it?
post #866 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by k_munic
this sounds like a HDDVDBluRayComboDrive, aka Superdrive II :

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32554

release date fits in schedule

Doubt it. I think Samsung's plans for a Universal player is more of a worst case scenario, kind of like Sony's venture with NEC...

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan...h_down&chan=tc

Quote:
Samsung backs commitment to Blu-ray

JUN. 22 12:08 P.M. ET Samsung Electronics said Thursday it is "fully committed" to Blu-Ray, a DVD format backed by Sony Corp., as well as a number of Hollywood studios, including Disney, MGM and Twentieth Century Fox.

Samsung said its new Blu-ray DVD player, the BD-P1000, will be available on June 25, at the expected price of $999.

The announcement comes two days after Sony Pictures released the first seven films on DVD in the Blu-ray format.
post #867 of 2106
EETimes, iSuppli, tear down a Toshiba HD-DVD reader

It turns out that it actually costs ~$674 in materials, so the fact that Sony will be losing money on the PS3 seems to be a moot point: Toshiba is losing over $200 per unit.

Desperation is a stinky cologne. [sorry, couldn't resist]
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post #868 of 2106
Hey I'm all for cashing in on desperation.

Toshiba knows they can't outdo the marketing muscle of the BDA. They best thing they can do is set a price point that is attractive and wait for the component costs to come down and pull them out of the red.
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post #869 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
EETimes, iSuppli, tear down a Toshiba HD-DVD reader

It turns out that it actually costs ~$674 in materials, so the fact that Sony will be losing money on the PS3 seems to be a moot point: Toshiba is losing over $200 per unit.

Desperation is a stinky cologne. [sorry, couldn't resist]

You beat me to it! Good find.

In any case, I can't say I share the same outlook as the individual at the end of the article. I just don't see how one company (Toshiba), with one player (or two if you want to include the $799 model, still wondering what that increase in price gives you), will be able to compete with 6 companies (Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, Panasonic, and Sharp) with 7 players--one from each + the PS3.

Time will tell though, that's for sure. The holidays will be an interesting time indeed!
post #870 of 2106
Thread Starter 
As I thought before, looks like Samsung going with a Universal player will be a last resort...

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news.php?newsId=3746
Quote:
Samsung not ready to confirm dual-format Blu-ray and HD drive yet

23 June 2006 - Pocket-lint has an update to yesterday's story about Samsung possibly bringing out a dual-format Blu-ray and High Definition optical drive.

Samsung has released a statement that reads: "Samsung Electronics is fully committed to the Blu-ray format and currently only has plans to introduce a Blu-ray player to the market. Samsung is looking forward to a very successful launch of the BD-P1000 which will be available on retail shelves June 25th for a $999 MAP price in the United States."

A report on DigitalWorld Tokyo had cited a Samsung manager confirming that Samsung has plans to bring out a dual-format player.

He was quoted as saying: "We don't have a plan to make an HD-DVD-only player but are considering a universal player."

"We are preparing HD-DVD now and if we launch a universal player it will be the end of this year or early next year."
post #871 of 2106
Samsung need to worry about producing ANY sort of player that doesn't have some sort of issue. Even their DVD players have had a variety of problems that have never been resolved. Samsung you've done well but you're not Sony yet.

Marzetta7 if it's true that we are still in the early adoption phase then it matters little that their are 7 BD players and 3 HD DVD. Clearly there isn't really enough differentiation between the players yet to make the choice anything more personal than tapping into an aethetic preference for casing.

Looking forware to 2nd generation stuff but glad that both formats are shipping now. HD movies and lower cost front projection equals total bliss.
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post #872 of 2106
I've been lurking about on this thread out of idle curiosity for quite some time. I saw this article today:

10 Reasons Both Formats Will Fail

I don't agree completely with each point; however, the fact is that--personally--I am not convinced that there is any mass-market need for any of this (unless the studios basically say, if you want to buy our great movie "TITLE", you have to buy it in a HD format). I am beginning to hope that both formats die miserably. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even need those stupid plastic discs for content; although, it is very, very difficult to beat the bandwidth of FedEx.

I'll stay out of the HD evolution for a couple of more years (my tv has worked for over 15, and for as much as I use it, it is fine).
post #873 of 2106
Let's analyze this a bit.

Their Top 10

1. Nobody likes false starts. With the debut of HD DVD at an underwhelming 720p/1080i...For Toshiba to release a player that didnt support true HD at 1080p (even though the software does), and with no lossless audio

Holy smokes did this guy get ANYTHING right in this first point? Funny there are so few TVs that offer 1080p inputs and even fewer that offer a 1:1 pixel map for 1080p (others use wobulation to share mirrors) thus I don't really get why he's "underwhelmed" about 1080i and no disc has shipped with 720p. It's obvious the he doesn't understand the benefits of de-interlacing with Inverse Telecine. Dolby TrueHD 2-channel is MANDATORY which means support is in EVERY player so if it's not on the disc it's the studios fault. Let's hope the next one is better. Keep in mind DVD launched without Paramount, Disney and others who wanted DIVX to thrive

2. Format Wars Dont Sell Players

Yes but they don't necessarily prohibit the success of formats either. Universal DVD Burners are the most recent success of to warring formats. Consumers are pretty adept and weighing the pros and cons of different formats. There's always competition.

3. HD DVD and Blu-ray are NOT Quantum Leaps in Technology

They don't have to be. They simply need to be valued over today's DVD. The killer app here isn't the HD content but the rapidly decreasing prices of large screen TVs and projectors. NTSC looked fine until TVs got larger than 32". DVDs looked fine until 60" and larger TV and projected screens. At my day gig we sell decent projectors for $800 and nothing beats the experience of sharp video on a large screen.





4. Studios are Conservative, Greedy and Unmotivated

Many companies hate change. Theres inherent risk in change and if they can profit and keep the status quo that's what they feel comfortable with.


5. Playstation3 Cannot Save the World

On one hand I believe the PS3 could have a major impact on BD-ROM sales but there's the possibility that many people simply purchase it as a game console.



6. Those Who Ignore History

Consumers are even more ambivalent about audio than they are about video. How many wall mounted plasmas do you see flanked by thin "lifestyle" speakers that sound like crap? Audio was never a big deal with people. Many profess to have a "tin ear" and DVD-A and SACD made fatal flaws. No digital hookup meant the use of 6 analog cable and the media pricing was higher than CD. People had been complaining for years about CD pricing so creating a more expensive format was not a way to engender the product into the hearts of people. Not to mention it's difficult to have a 5.1 playback system tweaked right.



7. People Want Technology thats 15 Minutes Ahead of Its Time

It's a good thing to have SD mixed in with HD. After becoming acclimated to HD you realize how sucky SD is. There's your motive for HD movies right there.

8. Enthusiasts Are Getting Tired (and Smarter)

Yes but being an enthusiast is also knowing the new tech comes out to replace old tech. When one enthusiast retires he/she passes the torch on to the next one.


9. A Skeptical News Media Doesnt Help
Ill admit it, were part of the problem (though Id like to think were saving consumers from making the next big mistake). An increasingly skeptical news media isnt buying into the hype of HD DVD and Blu-ray, especially not after wasting millions of editorial words on DVD-Audio and SACD, only to watch the software and technology dwindle into obscurity. Even after almost 6 years, most consumers continue to proffer puzzled looks when these audio formats are mentioned. The new DVD formats are getting plenty of press, mind you, but with the Toshiba flop and lack of software, the fact that the Emperor has no clothes (at least not yet) is hard to avoid.


Well the rule is that negative attention provokes more response. That's why the news is riddled with "dramatic" stories. I wouldn't call millions of editorial words wasted. You could be sitting in an unemployment line as another option so I think. I trust the news media when I want to read creative writing passed off as accurate reporting. I think the reality is a lot closer to news media being rather clueless and of no help for consumers.


10. Broadband and IPTV to Compete?

Certainly is an option worth looking into. Having more sources of movies and entertainment only seek to broaden and enrich my choices. I'd prefer both avenues.


Summary:

There's far too many people trying to tell me why I shouldn't like HD DVD or Blu-Ray. Their myopic view simply is shutting off the overall picture. If you have an HDTV and you want to see the best picture possible you get HD on your cable or you purchase one of these players. Whether you consider the player to be a good value or not rest soley on your own preferences.
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post #874 of 2106
I guess someone has probably brought this up but I don't feel like checking all 22 pages to find out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
http://www.hvd-alliance.org/abouthvd/hvd_faq.html

HVD discs were said to be enterprise ready this year and capable of holding 3.9TB per disc.

That's the kind of thing I want to see from a next-gen disc format.

Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray offer enough storage to warrant such expensive upgrades. Hardly anyone will have HDTVs or fast enough computers to play HD media so getting HD movies is pointless.

In terms of computer storage, most people will probably just get single layer discs like they still do with DVD, even though it's been around for years. For HD-DVD, that gives you the equivalent of 3 DVDs of space and Blu-Ray gives you 5.

I don't see me ever getting anything related to HD-DVD. 3 DVD's worth just isn't enough. 5 DVD's worth I would consider if the burner came below £200 and discs below £5.

When people can demonstrate technology that gives you 1TB+ on a disc, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD look quite pathetic.

CD -> DVD = 700MB -> 9.4GB = 13 times increase
DVD -> Blu-Ray = 9.4GB -> 50GB = 5 times increase
DVD -> HVD = 9.4GB -> 3.9TB = 415 times increase

I think it would be great if they could make HVD discs 1TB each at the size of miniature CDs. I've never liked the size of standard CDs/DVDs. Mini discs just seem much stronger and would make it easier to design smaller computers. Plus that's what they use in a lot of films. When you see them using a standard size disc in Mission Impossible, it looks clumsy but those tiny UMD size discs look great and would even be usable on an ipod.
post #875 of 2106
Marvin

If we're talking about formats that have been developed primarily for movie distribution and PC recording then that changes things quite a bit.

HVD certainly sounds appealing but not as a movie distribution format but more of an archiving solution.

While neither HD DVD or Blu-Ray offer a 13x increase in space there wasn't a need to require such a space increase. Music has always been easier to compress than video. A more appropriate comparison would have been to compare VHS to DVD. I assure you VHS holds more than 700MB worth of data.

The next problem is that we're simply looking from the wrong point of view here. The goal is to have transperancy from the master to the distributed format. Humans tend to default to thinking linearly and assume that more data means higher quality but there's a limit to what we can perceive.

Both Blu-Ray and HD DVD will come close to showing you what the master looks like. I'm not sure HVD would translate into a better viewing experience unless we're talking about a new codec
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post #876 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
I assure you VHS holds more than 700MB worth of data.

In case anyone really cares, here is what I found:

Quote:
How much could we store on a VHS video tape? Let's do a back of the envelope calculation:

Your AV Mac can digitize 320x240 video at 30 frames per second.

Let's ignore colour, since the VHS recorder won't record that very accurately, and lets assume that although the digitizer reads 256 levels of grey, we can only rely on recording 16 grey levels on the VHS tape with accuracy. Let's also allow for some horizontal smearing of the scan lines and only read 60 samples per line instead of the full 240.

With these somewhat conservative estimates, we get:

320 lines x 60 samples per line x 4 bits per sample x 30 frames per second = 2304000 bits per second = 2.3Mb/sec = 288 kbytes per second.

That makes 17 megabytes per minute, storing 2.7 GB on a 160 minute VHS tape.
post #877 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by kupan787
In case anyone really cares, here is what I found:

The universe is a very consistent entity. One of the major rules is that you can't get something for nothing. One such example is that you can't magically get tremendous resilience to noise (digital) without the cost of a huge amount of (analog) message data.

VHS is an analog format, and hence it is difficult to make a good estimate on the amount of bits and bytes it can successfully hold without knowing a lot more about the format itself. Beyond that, in order to calculate the theoretical digital-data-equivalence of an analog format, you need to know the bandwidth limits of the analog [VHS] signal, and whether or not it uses an SSB filter (analog TV broadcast does).

IIRC, VHS tapes are too slow for use as digital playback devices. At one point, there were people using VHS tapes to store digital data, but the drive motor had to be made much faster in order to make it at all useful. The VHS media and read head have a relatively poor slew rate, so the bits have to be stretched way beyond the length that would provide 2.7GB of data.
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post #878 of 2106
Thread Starter 
Some interesting Fox news...

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ind...leID=CA6346827
Quote:
Fox Makes Blu-Ray Push
By Glen Dickson -- Broadcasting & Cable, 6/26/2006
In this story:
PLAYERS DELAYED
MOVIES TRICKLE OUT
UPDATE DISCS

Twentieth Century Fox executives are showing off HD movies that Fox will be releasing this year on the new Blu-Ray optical-disc format.

Blu-Ray, which will deliver video in 1080-line progressive-scan high-definition and provide up to five times the storage of regular DVDs, is in competition with the HD-DVD format. Sony, Dell, a host of consumer-electronics manufacturers, and all the major movie studios except Universal support Blu-Ray.

PLAYERS DELAYED
The technologys expansion has been hurt, however, by several delays in the introduction of players from Sony, Samsung and Pioneer. Samsungs first Blu-Ray player, which will sell for around $1,000, is now hitting stores.

Sony Pictures has released its first seven titles. Among them are the Arnold Schwarzenegger classic The Terminator and Vin Diesel-vehicle XXX.

Meanwhile, the competing HD-DVD format is already on the market, backed by technology companies including Microsoft and Toshiba, as well as by the Universal, Warner Bros. and Paramount studios. Toshiba players priced at $500-$800 hit stores in April, although, with limited distribution, units are hard to find.

MOVIES TRICKLE OUT
HD-DVD content continues to trickle out from the studios. Warner Bros. announced June releases of HD-DVD titles, such as Syriana, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Lethal Weapon. But until the Blu-Ray battle with HD-DVD is resolved, many consumers are likely to be sitting on the sidelines.

To show off Blu-Ray earlier this month, Fox created a living-room environment at a Manhattan hotel, complete with a 65-inch Panasonic plasma 1080p display, to demonstrate several movies using prototype technology. Relying on a combination of a Pioneer Blu-Ray player and InterVideo WinDVD software, which provided the graphical user interface, Fox showed high-def clips from such movies as Independence Day and Master & Commander in stunning detail and clarity.

The demos only hinted at the full power of the 7.1-channel DTS-HD audio that is part of the Blu-Ray format, however, because DTS-HDcompatible consumer audio equipment is not yet available.

Another demonstration, which used a prototype Panasonic Blu-Ray player to show a clip from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, had no sound at all (the player is still under development, Fox explained).

Instead, this demo focused on the interactive features made possible by Blu-Rays use of the Java programming language. Among them: the ability for viewers to get a pop-up menu while watching the movie, launch graphic windows that give more information on individual actors, and save bookmarks of favorite scenes and store them on the flash memory of the Blu-Ray player itself. The next time the movie is cued up, the bookmarks immediately appear.

The idea is to make it as consumer-friendly as possible, explains Jacqueline Reed, executive director of DVD development for Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment.

Blu-Ray players will also have the ability to connect to the Internet. A Java-based feature called BD Live will provide instant interactivity while a Blu-Ray disc is played, allowing a viewer to launch a streaming discussion with a movies director, says Clayton Biele, IT operations manager for Fox Domestic Home Entertainment.

UPDATE DISCS
Through BD Live, the content on Blu-Ray discs also can be securely updated, says Biele, letting users download supplemental language tracks as they become available.

Fox is planning to launch roughly 20 HD titles on Blu-Ray in the fourth quarter, including such blockbuster titles as Ice Age 2, X-Men: The Last Stand, Omen 666 and Garfield 2, along with catalog fare.

Individual titles will probably have a list price of under $40 but sell for under $30 in stores, says Steve Feldstein, senior VP of corporate and marketing communications, Fox Filmed Entertainment.

A Blu-Ray release this year of a Fox television property, such as 24, is also a possibility, Feldstein says, but he cautions that no firm plans are in place.
post #879 of 2106
I just read an interesting artical on DigitalBits.com that compares
the video quality of Samsung's new BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc player
over componenet vs HDMI & the component looked better.

Story Here.
Brock Samson: You didn't tell me Sasquatch was a... a dude.
Steve Summers: What, you couldn't tell?
Brock Samson: Not until I had to...[shudders] shave him.
Steve Summers: What are you, shy?...
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Brock Samson: You didn't tell me Sasquatch was a... a dude.
Steve Summers: What, you couldn't tell?
Brock Samson: Not until I had to...[shudders] shave him.
Steve Summers: What are you, shy?...
Reply
post #880 of 2106
Quote:
Originally posted by mello
I just read an interesting artical on DigitalBits.com that compares
the video quality of Samsung's new BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc player
over componenet vs HDMI & the component looked better.

Story Here.

I think the Sammy has a bug in their player. It's been confimed that the Sammy is a 1080i player that takes the signal and runs it through a de-interlacer for final 1080p output. I'm not sure if this is the reason for the HDMI issues or not.
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