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iWork 06

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
Doesn't sound that hot at all.

Sounds like a little kowtowing is going on. Apple wants to sell me music and videos yet I have nothing exemplarary to handle my productivity on.

I'm not saying this to spite Apple but I'm glad my mother's sole practice is based around Windows and Office. Apple has been a huge disappointment in the productivity space.
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post #2 of 44
Stop expecting that iWork is supposed to compete with Office - it never will and it's not it's purpose.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #3 of 44
No spreadsheet application. I must admit I thought that was a given this time around.
post #4 of 44
What, pray tell, is iWork's purpose? No seriously, I'd love to know.

Asking for a darn spreadsheet on the platform isn't "competing with Office".
It's providing basic functionality to users.

It is an embarrassment to all concerned that a cutting edge iMac which is now "2X faster" still has to ship with a seven year old productivity app because Apple doesn't realize people need to add lists of numbers.

Pathetic. This is why businesses are reluctant to embrace the Mac.

The spreadsheet is a basic consumer and business tool. By all means, leave the high end to Redmond, but why leave out such a vital software category while shipping the iMac with other whimsical features like a remote?
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post #5 of 44
I agree, the lack of a spreadsheet is distressing. Frankly, I'd rather see them have revved Pages and added a spreadsheet than upgrade Keynote as well. It's probably too much to hope for a midyear release of Numbers or whatever.... If Apple doesn't include a spreadsheet in iWork 07, I'm giving up on the entire suite.

It sucks... Pages 2 looks like an excellent upgrade that answers all my concerns about version 1.0.x. But the lack of a spreadsheet.... dammit, that's just pathetic.
post #6 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Asking for a darn spreadsheet on the platform isn't "competing with Office".
It's providing basic functionality to users.

I was responding to: I'm glad my mother's sole practice is based around Windows and Office.


Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Apple doesn't realize people need to add lists of numbers.

You did notice that basic spreadsheet functionality is in Pages (and Keynote btw.), didn't you? Let's see how basic that is.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #7 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
You did notice that basic spreadsheet functionality is in Pages (and Keynote btw.), didn't you? Let's see how basic that is.

I was glad to see that, as that is enough for my needs. But it would still be nice if they brought iWorks at least up to the level of AppleWorks by adding more spreadsheet and basic database functionality.
post #8 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Stop expecting that iWork is supposed to compete with Office - it never will and it's not it's purpose.

I never said that. However even a basic "works" app should have drawing, spreadsheet and a small database. I work is an incomplete productivity suite that isn't even on Appleworks level.

Quote:
The spreadsheet is a basic consumer and business tool. By all means, leave the high end to Redmond, but why leave out such a vital software category while shipping the iMac with other whimsical features like a remote?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Steve once tell us that TV was passive and that you turned your brain off. Now he's shipping remote controls so that we can listen to iTunes and play videos without moving but a finger. Speaks volumes.

Quote:
I was responding to: I'm glad my mother's sole practice is based around Windows and Office

Am I supposed to attempt to cobble a solution together from Apple who can't even ship a consumer productivity suite that is full featured?

Hey I understand....I'll go to Apple when I need iPods and downloadable video stuff but stick to Microsoft when I need the stuff that propels business.
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post #9 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Hey I understand....I'll go to Apple when I need iPods and downloadable video stuff but stick to Microsoft when I need the stuff that propels business.

Why does everything have to come from Apple? Do you really want two platforms with no third party apps?

Is it so terrible to use Office if that's what you want?

Hey I understand....I'll go to Apple when I need iPods and downloadable video stuff but stick to Adobe when I need the stuff that propels the printing industry.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #10 of 44
The incredible thing is, we have no modern third party spreadsheets.
I really don't understand why not, but that's the situation on the platform.

And yes JLL, I did notice that they implemented some kind of spreadsheet infrastructure within Pages. I wonder what happened to the "separate app for each task" mentality that insisted that Address Book, iCal and Mail not be integrated into one app.

Sometimes you have to wonder if Apple really knows what it's doing, or if they're just making this stuff up as they go along.
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post #11 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
The incredible thing is, we have no modern third party spreadsheets.
I really don't understand why not, but that's the situation on the platform.

And yes JLL, I did notice that they implemented some kind of spreadsheet infrastructure within Pages. I wonder what happened to the "separate app for each task" mentality that insisted that Address Book, iCal and Mail not be integrated into one app.

Sometimes you have to wonder if Apple really knows what it's doing, or if they're just making this stuff up as they go along.

Actually Mariner Software's Calc isn't too bad. I use it because as an old WordPerfect programmer I can't bring myself to use Microsoft.

http://www.marinersoftware.com/
post #12 of 44
Thread Starter 
It's a little bit of a signal that the health of the Mac platform isn't there. If Apple must appease Microsoft at every step to keep Office then we don't control our platform Microsoft does.

iLife is nice but it's entertainment stuff. The fact that Apple doesn't have a homegrown productivity suite that appeals to consumers is daft. Are we really expecting these people to pay $300+ for Mac Office.

If you're going to sell out to Microsoft then why not offer OEM versions for Macs?

It certainly means there's no Exchange competitor in the wings which means Apple's Xserve line is rather useless.

My respect for Apple diminishes everytime they do this. I gotta wonder about when the wheels fall off next time...will Apple recover. They're currently coasting on other peoples work (iTunes selling music owned by 3rd parties).

The iPod will not last forever nor will the applause from the media and analysts who are as fickle as they come.
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post #13 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
And yes JLL, I did notice that they implemented some kind of spreadsheet infrastructure within Pages. I wonder what happened to the "separate app for each task" mentality that insisted that Address Book, iCal and Mail not be integrated into one app.

Since the same functionality is in both Pages and Keynote we might see it as an addition to the standard textview in Cocoa?

I'm not saying that there isn't a need for a spreadsheet app, and I'm not expecting to see Pages and Keynote handling more than basic tables, since they are often needed in documents and presentations.

PS: why should Mail, Address Book and iCal be integrated? Mozilla moved away from that approach and other than groupware apps I can only think of one all-in-one mail-address-calendar app: Entourage. Even Microsoft isn't combining the three in Windows Vista.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #14 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
It certainly means there's no Exchange competitor in the wings which means Apple's Xserve line is rather useless.

How on earth can you conclude that there isn't an Exchange competitor on the way, and again, why should Apple compete with Microsoft on every level? Microsoft is not competing with Apple on every level.

And servers are only used as groupware servers? You don't have to have an all-Apple server room, and most groupware products have Mac or web clients - plus products like Ximbra is on Mac OS X Server now.

Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
My respect for Apple diminishes everytime they do this. I gotta wonder about when the wheels fall off next time...will Apple recover. They're currently coasting on other peoples work (iTunes selling music owned by 3rd parties).

What a pessimist you are (and I just know you'll answer that you are a realist).
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #15 of 44
pages 2 sounds great.
mail merge
basic calculations in table.
bezlier curves
user comments

Satisfies my shortcomings with pages 1.0

Personally I think there will never be a numbers program as spreadsheets are dinosaurs. "Modern spreadsheet" is an oxymoron. Everone keep lamenting a modern productivity suite but spread sheets are from the dark ages. If you want to do anything more complex than a few basic calculations you probqably should be using filemaker.

Now I can have my "spreadsheet" and text in the same document!!!!! hoooooray
really what is everyone complaining about. If your requirments are that specific Go use Word. I write specifications hundreds + pages and pages works great. I can even open the file accross and internet network and have a responsive file. Do that in Word and it is treacle.

So what features are you guys/gals missing that your life falls into a heap if they are not in Pages? What about the features/usability that Pages has that Word can only dream of. You all sound like a bunch of whinny weasles.

BTW if you dont know what and oxymoron is highlight it and contol click to see a dictionary definition. oh I forgot you cant do that in word.
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post #16 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Aussie John
Personally I think there will never be a numbers program as spreadsheets are dinosaurs. "Modern spreadsheet" is an oxymoron. Everone keep lamenting a modern productivity suite but spread sheets are from the dark ages. If you want to do anything more complex than a few basic calculations you probqably should be using filemaker.

I've been using Filemaker since version 2, so I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

What program do you use on the Mac if you want to whip up a quick budget for a home or business project?

What about if you want to do basic project management of any kind?

What if you want to itemize and categorize a set of business expenses and send it to someone else at another office?

Filemaker can be used for these the way the base of a screwdriver can be used as a hammer.
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post #17 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777


What program do you use on the Mac if you want to whip up a quick budget for a home or business project?


What about if you want to do basic project management of any kind?

What if you want to itemize and categorize a set of business expenses and send it to someone else at another office?

Since pages does tables and table with calculations you can use that.
Yes pages for interoperablity with non pages users is not a strong point.
I am not sure excel is that great for project managment uses. Try Merlin - looks great.
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post #18 of 44
What is strange about Excel, is that most people in the office don't use it for numbers. They use it to create forms, manage timelines, throw a bunch on info into a la database, but I've never seen a spreadsheet in our office that just consists of managing numbers. I'm sure financial firms use Excel as an actual spreadsheet for numbers, but my office doesn't. Excel is some weird mutant table layout program.

All that said I absolutely adore Pages, and Pages 2 only looks better.
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post #19 of 44
Excel's mutant features are what makes it nearly impossible to replace though. It is so useful in so many fields that basically everybody ends up using it. By the looks of it Office 12 will only improve it further too.
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post #20 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Beardsley
What is strange about Excel, is that most people in the office don't use it for numbers. They use it to create forms, manage timelines, throw a bunch on info into a la database, but I've never seen a spreadsheet in our office that just consists of managing numbers. I'm sure financial firms use Excel as an actual spreadsheet for numbers, but my office doesn't. Excel is some weird mutant table layout program.

All that said I absolutely adore Pages, and Pages 2 only looks better.

In my experience, people who have gone to business school tend to use Excel for freaking everything. Even things like laying out scripts, which are almost impossible to deal with.
post #21 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Nautical
No spreadsheet application. I must admit I thought that was a given this time around.

This year's MacWorld was focused on two things:

1) Providing people with a digital ecosystem (i.e. iPod, iTunes Music Store, iLife, .mac) they can use to express/share themselves.

2) Unveil the first Intel powered Macs and announce the transition, hardware and software, will be completed by the end of the year.

but I still think a spreadsheet application, and maybe a database app/front-end, will be added to iWork '06 and demonstrated at WWDC2006. With iLife out of the way Steve will have time to demonstrate the new app(s) and also how Keynote and Pages work seamlessly with them.

For the people that purchased iWork '06 prior to the updated suite Apple will either allow them to exchange their disk and pay the difference for a new disk, or they can purchase an "upgrade" disk that contains the new app(s), but they will have to have Pages 2.x or Keynote 3.x on the computer for the install to complete.
post #22 of 44
iwork is worth the price solely for keynote. period. if you don't think so, i would suggest you might not be using it correctly. try to stop thinking of it as a presentation app. hell, it's the cheapest basic compositing app out there today. period. hell, you can have it do awesome training quicktime demos, trade show kiosks, etc. in like, no time, and very little learning curve.

admittedly, pages is a bit of a "well, it's int he box, so i guess that's nice" sort of thing going for it, and john gruber at daringfireball says that apple wants to use pages for all of its documentation, which is a bold (and possibly foolhardy, if it's not ready) move.

the only thing that sucks is that it appears both the ilife and iwork suites are now on a once-a-year-except-itunes-because-that-sells-ipods-so-we'll-update-it-ten-times-more-often schedule, so pages 3 and keynote 4 will be here... um, 12 months from now. see ya then! maybe THEN we'll get numbers 1.0.
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post #23 of 44
It seems like people are so used to Excel, that they just want an Apple version of it.

Maybe Apple knows that not many people use a spreadsheet. I teach at a university, and I use excel all the time for grades. But is it really that commonly-used of an application? Or maybe the table function fulfills the vast majority of what people use the spreadsheets for: It looks like it has formula and sorting and fill and number formatting. Without having used it yet, it looks like it may do everything I'd want. I'm sure other people need more, but as someone else said, Apple need not do everything.
post #24 of 44
Excel is used in financial environments extensively. Anywhere you do a lot of numerical reports or monthly inputs. It has far more robust features for comparison, statistics and automation. I don't think people give Excel the credit it's due. That said I think it far outdoes what many people need.
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post #25 of 44
Thread Starter 
go to quantrix.com

view the demo

and ask yourself why Apple isn't at the forefront of making a spreadsheet easier to use.

We're not asking that Apple create everything. We're simply asking that if you let Appleworks die on the vine..give us a capable replacement.

Office is still going to sell regardless.
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post #26 of 44
I'm curious to see how Apple's going to continue to develop iWork since they just signed agreements with MS for 5 more years of Office. I doubt MS would like it if they were stuck in a contract with a company that released a direct-competitor software suite.
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post #27 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
I'm curious to see how Apple's going to continue to develop iWork since they just signed agreements with MS for 5 more years of Office. I doubt MS would like it if they were stuck in a contract with a company that released a direct-competitor software suite.

Then I wonder if Apple is developing a spreadsheet application that's not a spreadsheet application, if you know what I mean.
post #28 of 44
Excel is not an application - its a whole industry!!
And I think its good that Apple and Microsoft are continuing to have a good partnership so that we will have office on the Mac!!

But a basic spreadsheet wouldn't be to bad to have in iWork. But check out Mariner Calc coz its really good!!!

My big question is: is iWork localized now??? I really need a swedish version!!
post #29 of 44
OK, I'll bite.

What is so terrible about Applework's spreadsheet for basic consumer spreadsheet requirements?

At work I use Excel, at home Appleworks. I can't remember the last time I cursed Appleworks, as for home use it does more than enough.

David
post #30 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
I'm curious to see how Apple's going to continue to develop iWork since they just signed agreements with MS for 5 more years of Office. I doubt MS would like it if they were stuck in a contract with a company that released a direct-competitor software suite.

Which is why iWork isn't a direct competitor, and a basic spreadsheet for home use won't compete with Excel.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #31 of 44
people seem to think that apple is one app away from microsoft or adobe pulling the plug on software development. do people think this is how big business is run? out of spite? i think these apps are way more profitable to these companies than people give them credit for. and there's gotta be at least one person in the halls of adobe and microsoft that think (and i'm making up numbers here), "well, apple is just 10% of our business, but i'll be damned if i'm just going to give up 10% of my business, because most of them will go banging on apple's door for help."

am i just being overly naive here?
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post #32 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by iMac David
OK, I'll bite.

What is so terrible about Applework's spreadsheet for basic consumer spreadsheet requirements?

At work I use Excel, at home Appleworks. I can't remember the last time I cursed Appleworks, as for home use it does more than enough.

David

The problem is you don't get appleworks with intel macs.

I think iWork should have been free with them.
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post #33 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
am i just being overly naive here?

No you're just displaying a uncommon amount of common sense. Apple did what it had to do to secure Office for the transition. Every transition means they get put over a barrel and have to make concessions for support.

Hell if I was Gates or Chizen I'd be raking Steve over the coals as well. He'd do it to them in a heart beat. This is business
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post #34 of 44
OK.

But presumably you could buy Appleworks and it will run under Rossetta? Since it isn't Photoshop the performance shuld be OK.

Agreed it is a pain to pay for something previously free with iMacs.

But also, what is there that is wrong/limiting with the spreadsheet for a home user? [Don't get me wrong - it hasn't the features for professional use, but I'm talking home budgets, holiday costings, keeping track of holiday time etc]

David
post #35 of 44
I own the previous version of iWork and while I like the new feaures I can't say that I'm dying to upgrade. If I was getting a new iMac or MacBook I might be singing a different tune.

Oh well, probably will buy the new version of iWork anyhow. Besides, its a business expense after all.
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post #36 of 44
Thread Starter 
I think one of the problems that Apple is creating is that they're talking the difficult road.

Consumers are many things but creativity is something that many lack. Apple is asking them to become creative and dutifully providing the tools necessary. I love iLife and .mac as a system for displaying your media but I actually value tools that will make my life a bit more productive and Apple has a lot of technology that can do that yet they haven't displayed that they are interested.
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post #37 of 44
Recieved mine this morning via FedEx!!

wow that was fast!!!
post #38 of 44
Checked it out today at MWSF. I was really hoping for more of an update. If this came 6 months after the last ok, but at this pace it will take a decade to get to were I think this software could be.

The Apple guy demoing the product was almost a little ashamed, and suggested that if the user base was bigger that it would accelerate development. However, I generally don't think these guys have that much inside knowledge. Either way the suggestion is crap since if Apple can't find the resources, then who can? Chicken and and egg, they have to build it and then the users will come.

I will be upgrading anyway. It is cheap and I do love Keynote. I just wish I could use Pages instead of Office for all my work.

Off topic: Macworld seemed a bit dull to me. I've been going for years and every year has its flavor. This year it was clearly iPodWorld, with many small and big vendors trying to cash in on the iPod with every imaginable thingy. It was that way last year as well. I guess what I was missing was the cool new software doing something that just blows me away. The best new thing that I saw was the iLife update. Just wish that somebody other than Apple would draw some attention.
post #39 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
I think one of the problems that Apple is creating is that they're talking the difficult road.

Consumers are many things but creativity is something that many lack. Apple is asking them to become creative and dutifully providing the tools necessary. I love iLife and .mac as a system for displaying your media but I actually value tools that will make my life a bit more productive and Apple has a lot of technology that can do that yet they haven't displayed that they are interested.

I somewhat agree with what you're saying but I think Apple wants to concentrate on the 'creative' and less on the 'productive'. I think when people come back from work using their PC (most don't have a choice using those archaic beasts ) the last thing they want to do is 'more work' or be 'productive'. They'll probably want to plop down in front of a TV or Front Row and watch a movie, or listen to music, or create a podcast or blog about their crappy day at work.

It's tough to market something like 'Numbers' or 'Pages'. Only a few people have the willpower to sit down and crunch more numbers or write up a newsletter or whatever at 8:00PM after a full day of work. It's just not fun to most people.
post #40 of 44
Plenty of people do newsletters and things though and Word is actually horrendous for that. Also these days a lot of the work ends up coming at home. At work I use PCs almost exclusively, at home I use macs where possible because I just prefer the ease of use and interface. Pages can attempt to make the common tasks more easy and sell that way.

Downside is until they can guarantee 100% compatibility people will be reluctant to use it for work they bring home.
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