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No Filibuster for you! - Page 2

post #41 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
More abortions happen per capita in Red States...

It is a social issue.

Republican are pretty smart. They have to stop their base from killing themselves off.
post #42 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
The Democrats are spineless idiots for letting this grade-A douche bag get confirmed to the highest court in the land.

And with rhetoric like this...it is any wonder why the state of our social, cultural and political discourse is so dismal these days.
post #43 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
I corrected the mistake in your post.
Your Welcome.

I can't help but smile at the irony of someone claiming to be about civil liberties while correcting what they believe to be my thoughts and how they should be expressed.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #44 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla

And a moral one.

No. The most correct description is that it is a social issue. There are more people in the world today who don't see abortion as a moral problem at all than who do.

As far as the rest of your comments, did you read Moe's post or are you really that daft?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #45 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You know I am seldom impolite to someone as cool as you BRussell, but that seriously is pure bullshit.

Pure bullshit? Pure? Come on. It may be a bit turdy, but it's not of the poopy purity one would expect from typical internet banter.
post #46 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No. The most correct description is that it is a social issue. There are more people in the world today who don't see abortion as a moral problem at all than who do.

And because more/most people think something...ummm...that makes it true...oh wait...no it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
did you read Moe's post

Yes.
post #47 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
Republican are pretty smart. They have to stop their base from killing themselves off.

Well, since they are also getting pushed out by faster growing groups, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a ZPG republican wing start growing...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #48 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
And because more/most people think something...ummm...that makes it true...oh wait...no it doesn't.

Exactly.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #49 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I can't help but smile at the irony of someone claiming to be about civil liberties while correcting what they believe to be my thoughts and how they should be expressed.

Nick

Yes because in changing you quote in my post in OBVIOUS jest, I somehow thought your computer would transmit telepathic liberal brain waves forcing you to actually come to grips with what you REALLY beleive deep down inside your heart! OH YEAH YOU GOT ME NOW! It's IRONIC like a death row pardon two minutes too late, or ironic like rain on your wedding day.
post #50 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Exactly.

Right. So your reasoning for why it is not a moral issue is...well...faulty (at best).

It is a moral issue.
post #51 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Why don't we provide all pregnant women with the best healthcare possible for free, monetary reimbursement for lost potential wages at a minimum of 2x minimum wage

Why should pregnant women be given special treatment in this? Specifically in health care?

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Or don't the butt plugged too tightly prolifers want to solve the problems that lead people to want abortions or to abandon newborns?

And with rhetoric like this...it is any wonder why the state of our social, cultural and political discourse is so dismal these days.
post #52 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Right. So your reasoning for why it is not a moral issue is...well...faulty (at best).

It is a moral issue.

Is there an ethical calculation that ultimately forces people's hands?

Yes.

Are all people who get abortions amoral?

No.

But my exactly was a reference to the post I was responding to initially...



Why do you even respond to me?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #53 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
But my exactly was a reference to the post I was responding to initially...

You lost me.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Why do you even respond to me?

Well, if you don't want me to...
post #54 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Why should pregnant women be given special treatment in this? Specifically in health care?



And with rhetoric like this...it is any wonder why the state of our social, cultural and political discourse is so dismal these days.

You are an idiot.

Pure and simple, health care, particularly prenatal care is expensive, but it is vital to the health of newborns and indeed the child for the rest of their life.

Unlike the Christian ideal of having as many Christian children as possible, the better ideal is having the healthiest children possible.

Seriously, would you support a plan that nullifies the reasons for abortion, besides legality (which as we know will just cause women to seek alternate more dangerous methods)?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #55 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
You lost me.



Well, if you don't want me to...

You seem to dislike me.

And you seek out my posts that are opposed to your sensibilities, every time I post them.... It is like you are stalking me...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #56 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Why should pregnant women be given special treatment in this? Specifically in health care?

'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #57 of 126
I've never understood conservative thinking when it came to their stance on children and their rights. As soon as you're conceived, you have every right imaginable. As soon as you leave you're mother's uterus, nothing. Cuts in education, health programs, welfare for single mothers, etc. etc. Why the hypocrisy?
post #58 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You are an idiot.

From http://forums.appleinsider.com/guidelines.html :

"Posters are allowed a great deal of flexibility in their posts, but be respectful of other members and the guidelines."

"Ad-hominem attacks of forum members will not be tolerated. We understand that things get heated, but it helps to maintain a modicum of respect for the membership. Attack ideas, not people."

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Pure and simple, health care, particularly prenatal care is expensive, but it is vital to the health of newborns and indeed the child for the rest of their life.

So the unborn baby needs the best health care possible. OK. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Unlike the Christian ideal of having as many Christian children as possible, the better ideal is having the healthiest children possible.



Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Seriously, would you support a plan that nullifies the reasons for abortion, besides legality (which as we know will just cause women to seek alternate more dangerous methods)?

I would like to see all abortions come to an end.
post #59 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You seem to dislike me.

I have formed no such opinion. Although the "idiot" remark above doesn't really help.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
And you seek out my posts that are opposed to your sensibilities, every time I post them.... It is like you are stalking me...

Umm...no.

If you don't like people responding to your posts, then don't post. The other option is to ignore them.

I am not "stalking" you. Quit being so melodramatic.
post #60 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla


So the unborn baby needs the best health care possible. OK. Thank you.

If you plan to force women to go to term, or if the women want to go to term, the health care of the fetus (which is not a baby) is essential, but that doesn't occur even now. Why don't we fix that before we attempt to deal with convincing women to go to term without guarantees of prenatal care?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #61 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
If you plan to force women to go to term, or if the women want to go to term, the health care of the fetus (which is not a baby) is essential, but that doesn't occur even now.

I agree that unborn babies should get the best health care possible.

I also agree that we have a number of deficiencies in our health care system in the U.S. and that is very unfortunate.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Why don't we fix that before we attempt to deal with convincing women to go to term without guarantees of prenatal care?

Can it be "both and" rather than "either or"? I mean to say, can't we do both at the same time?
post #62 of 126
No, we cannot, because without guarantees of care and an appropriate system to take care of unwanted children, it is immoral for anyone to inflict both the mother and potential child to the effects of a sub-par medical treatment and truly broken system of adoption/foster care.

Absolutely, incredibly immoral, and a damn shame too.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #63 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
Yes because in changing you quote in my post in OBVIOUS jest, I somehow thought your computer would transmit telepathic liberal brain waves forcing you to actually come to grips with what you REALLY beleive deep down inside your heart! OH YEAH YOU GOT ME NOW! It's IRONIC like a death row pardon two minutes too late, or ironic like rain on your wedding day.

Keep digging that hole.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #64 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No, we cannot, because without guarantees of care and an appropriate system to take care of unwanted children, it is amoral for anyone to inflict both the mother and potential child to the effects of a sub-par medical treatment and truly broken system of adoption/foster care.

Absolutely, incredibly amoral, and a damn shame too.

Amoral? Don't you mean immoral? I mean this is a question of right and wrong. You clearly think it is wrong for us to have sub-par medical treatment for unborn children (and their mothers).

( BTW...while I admit to deficiencies in our healthcase system, I believe you are overstating this as a factor that is contributing to abortions. )

Maybe we need to start a step further back and work on the "unwantedness" part.

I disagree that we cannot pursue fixing both problems at the same time.

What I find immoral is that an imperfect healthcare system (or economic reasons or lifestyle reasons or whatever conveniently self-centered reasons we can conjure) is justification for murdering an unborn child.

But...we have digressed.
post #65 of 126
Murder, who said anything about murder?

We are talking about abortions here.

And yes I meant immoral... thank you... it is quite late we will have to tango some other time, and by then I will have forgotten that this conversation ever happened...
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post #66 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Murder, who said anything about murder?

We are talking about abortions here.

Right, I forgot about your preferred euphemisms.

Later.
post #67 of 126
Quote:
[i]It is a social issue. [/B]

Here is the root of many of the problems in today's World. The blame for wrongs is way too often given to "society" or "the system" or "economics" and on and on and on. What is missing is MORALITY and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Moe has left the building
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Moe has left the building
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post #68 of 126
What I absolutely do not understand with the abortion lobby is the level of denial -- people who can look you right in the eye after describing partial-birth abortion and quip something about the Camel's nose under the tent; it's beyond ridiculous.

Why not just admit -- like so many past cultures, or even in some present cultures like India -- that the parents have life-or-death control over their children? In Rome the father could choose to expose an infant if it was unwanted, in India they drown baby girls in pails of milk, heck, even animals have this 'natural' right to kill their young.

What's with all this equivocation?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #69 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
What I absolutely do not understand with the abortion lobby is the level of denial -- people who can look you right in the eye after describing partial-birth abortion and quip something about the Camel's nose under the tent; it's beyond ridiculous.

You have the same thing on your side - where you think every fertilised egg is sacred and cannot be destroyed, even if it is only a clump of 16 cells or whatever.
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post #70 of 126
To me the question is not if we are or are not killing humans with abortion. Abortion is killing human beings. The question is when is it acceptable to take another human life. War? Death Penalty, Abortion? Don't hide behind your definition of human life. Face that abortion is killing people and see if you can justify it.
Moe has left the building
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post #71 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
You have the same thing on your side - where you think every fertilised egg is sacred and cannot be destroyed, even if it is only a clump of 16 cells or whatever.

It's a human being in it's earliest stages of development, there's nothing to debate -- why play the shell game? It's not part of the mother's body -- it's a parasite with a separate blood supply. It controls it's own development. If you leave it alone it will eventually leave the mothers body.

e1618978, do you really think you're the first person to want that level of control over progeny? Historically speaking, it's a very common desire.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #72 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
It's a human being in it's earliest stages of development, there's nothing to debate -- why play the shell game? It's not part of the mother's body -- it's a parasite with a separate blood supply. It controls it's own development. If you leave it alone it will eventually leave the mothers body.

e1618978, do you really think you're the first person to want that level of control over progeny? Historically speaking, it's a very common desire.

You didn't understand me. Pro-choice people are over the line when they ask for the really gruesome 3rd trimester abortions. Pro-life people are over the line when they demand that we treat a clump of cells with no brain as a human.
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post #73 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
You didn't understand me. Pro-choice people are over the line when they ask for the really gruesome 3rd trimester abortions. Pro-life people are over the line when they demand that we treat a clump of cells with no brain as a human.

Well...I understood what you were saying (and if I know dmz...he did too). But, understanding and agreeing that you are correct are different things.
post #74 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well...I understood what you were saying (and if I know dmz...he did too). But, understanding and agreeing that you are correct are different things.

Complaining about the other side's "camel nose under the tent" policy without noticing your own side's similar policy does not get us anyware.

I was just pointing this out to DMZ - You can't try to push the other side in your direction if you are unwilling to budge yourself.
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post #75 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
You didn't understand me. Pro-choice people are over the line when they ask for the really gruesome 3rd trimester abortions. Pro-life people are over the line when they demand that we treat a clump of cells with no brain as a human.

Nonsense!

This would go much faster if you would just admit you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #76 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Complaining about the other side's "camel nose under the tent" policy without noticing your own side's similar policy does not get us anyware.

I was just pointing this out to DMZ - You can't try to push the other side in your direction if you are unwilling to budge yourself.

Well, again, I say...just because I understand what you are saying doesn't mean I agree (that my "own's side" policy is "similar"). That appears to be the breakdown in your understanding.
post #77 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This would go much faster if you would just admit you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

I'm sure that most arguments are like that.
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post #78 of 126
ziiiiiiip...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #79 of 126
Well it is official. Alito has been confirmed.

Quote:
The sword of the filibuster has been sheathed because we are placing principle before politics, and results before rhetoric, Frist said.

How long before a case comes before the court to ammend or overturn Roe? Personally I am "pro life" (I dont like the terminology of pro-life & pro-choice), however I don't believe that it is the government's place to tell a woman what she can or cannot do to her body.

At any rate, I think at some point the issue of abortion will be turned back to the states, where it will become a ballot initiative - much like what happened with the whole gay marriage deal in 2004.
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post #80 of 126
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Basically whether unwanted children is a moral issue or a political issue.

But aren't you trying to make it into a pollical issue by making abortion illegal? You are trying to force your religious beliefs on other families that don't share them.

If you really wanted it to be a moral issue, you would leave it legal and rely on the morals of the individual to make the decision. If they choose wrong, they go to hell - but only god is supposed to make that judgement, right?

Why should my daughter suffer an unwanted pregnancy because some group of strangers believe in a human soul?
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