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Soooo. Anyone heard some news from Denmark lately? - Page 4

post #121 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
That is partly right. There was immediate reaction from muslim groups here that asked for a retraction or an excuse. From principle they would not do that, their idea was to prove a point about freedom of speech. About a couple of weeks later 12 ambassadors from ME asked to meet the prime minister (see the letter here) to discuss the general anti-muslim tendencies with the center on the cartoons. the prime declined to meet them because the letter contains a plea to take action against the paper (this was the large mistake in all of this. The drawings are very offensive to some muslims and everywhere they were met with "well suck it up". A recognision of their feelings at that point would have stopped it all in my best judgement). Then some of the muslim organisations formed a group that was sent to ME in december.

BTW: There is a sentence in the letter I don´t really get:

...and urge Your Excellency´s government to take all those responsible to task under law of the land...

Are they asking us to take the legal actions that our law permits against the papers? or are they asking for to take action, no matter the law? Its rather crucial in the discussion here because of the reason the prime gave not to see them. If it is the first (actions our laws permits) then our prime lied. He claimed he could not do what they asked him to do in the letter and thats why he wouldn´t meet with them. If they asked to do what our laws permits then it would have been easy for him to ask them to go to the police after the meeting and file a complaint. We do have laws against profanity and it would have gone through our juridical system (and lost but thats another issue).

Anders, I understand you to imply that one of the cartoonists might have been a racist or extreme-right wing (apologies if I misunderstood you) - if this is so, do you have any supporting evidence or links?
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post #122 of 328
Thread Starter 
No. Actually about half the cartoons contains elements that showed the cartoonists thought of this as a stupid stunt by the newspaper.



This one is of Mohammad, seventh grade in a school in Copenhagen. His shirt say "the future" and the the board should read something like that ridicules the paper. Can anyone translate?



THis is a picture of the author of a childrens book about the life of Mohammad. He claimed he could not get anyone to draw the pictures for the book and that claim was what sparked the idea to begin with. To get an orange in ones turban mean to get unearned good luck.



This is a line up of anybody but Mohammad. Number two is the leader of our extreme-right party and number seven is the above mentioned author.
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post #123 of 328
Where to start...half the time people are discussing semantics in stead of the point.
1. The cartoons where supposed to make a point about (the limits of) freedom of speech
2. They also were supposed to make a point how freedom of speech was suppressed these days by the actions of a few violent extremist
3. They were supposed to refer to the pretty hot topic of the relation between islam, religious fanaticism and violence.
Unfortunately the reactions to the cartoons are much more telling that the cartoons themselves. But they also validate the cartoons in their relevance.

No matter how you look at it, there is no indication that the cartoonists, the paper, the Danish nation or anybody else wanted to bring the message across that all muslims are terrorists. What is left is a satirical cartoon about a hot topic in a Danish newspaper. Big friggin' deal.
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post #124 of 328
Quote:
No matter how you look at it, there is no indication that the cartoonists, the paper, the Danish nation or anybody else wanted to bring the message across that all muslims are terrorists.

Except the founder of Islam, Muhammad, being depicted as a terrorist with a bomb on his turban. And as the founder of Islam, and the example all Muslims should follow, he represents the faith itself, for all what is good or bad about it.

No sir. There is no indication that the paper or 'anybody else' was doing anything else other than jerking around with new shiny pencils in their 1-hour lunch break down at McDonald's.
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post #125 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
No sir. There is no indication that the paper or 'anybody else' was doing anything else other than jerking around with new shiny pencils in their 1-hour lunch break down at McDonald's.

Exactly. And this compares how exactly to calling for a jihad against Denmark and Europe? Some people are sensitive about their religion, some about their country, others about their musical idols. And I'm afraid religion doesn't rank very high in Denmark. And that's the whole point of the cartoons: why should we be threatened in our freedom by something as ridiculous as religion. Well, I guess now they know. And it ain't pretty
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post #126 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by SpcMs
[B]Exactly. And this compares how exactly to calling for a jihad against Denmark and Europe?

I wouldn't know that. But it certainly disqualifies your claim of 'they were doing nothing than...'.

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Some people are sensitive about their religion, some about their country, others about their musical idols

That much is clear.

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And I'm afraid religion doesn't rank very high in Denmark.

Good for Denmark.

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And that's the whole point of the cartoons: why should we be threatened in our freedom by something as ridiculous as religion. Well, I guess now they know. And it ain't pretty

And that's the whole point of the protests: why should they all be ridiculed and depicted as terrorists by some shmook with more hair-tonic than brains? It's a two-way road.
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post #127 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
And that's the whole point of the protests: why should they all be ridiculed and depicted as terrorists by some shmook with more hair-tonic than brains?

Because in a liberal society, everything is up for ridicule. If they think it should be illegal, they simply don't believe in liberal society. That's their choice, of course, and few Muslims have impressed me as believing in liberal society. Perhaps that's why today Islamic-dominated countries are virtually all dictatorships and Christian-dominated ones are liberal democracies?
post #128 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Because in a liberal society, everything is up for ridicule. If they think it should be illegal, they simply don't believe in liberal society. That's their choice, of course, and few Muslims have impressed me as believing in liberal society. Perhaps that's why today Islamic-dominated countries are virtually all dictatorships and Christian-dominated ones are liberal democracies?

Not true. There are many things not 'up for ridicule'.

There are also many things you cannot say or do unless you want to end up in jail.

But even if it was true - why is the right to ridicule so important? I know we are in a kind of kindergarten politically but do we really have to extend it to society as a whole?
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post #129 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
This one is of Mohammad, seventh grade in a school in Copenhagen. His shirt say "the future" and the the board should read something like that ridicules the paper. Can anyone translate?

Something along the line of the Jyllands Posten is a bunch of provocative retrogrades.
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post #130 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
And that's the whole point of the protests: why should they all be ridiculed and depicted as terrorists by some shmook with more hair-tonic than brains? It's a two-way road.

Except that wasn't even remotely the point of the cartoons.
And even if it was, the relation between terrorism, islam and religious fanaticism is a relevant issue, unfortunately. I see a provocative drawing, but drawing the conclusion that the 'artist' implies all muslims are terrorists is a pretty superficial interpretation imo. Especially, again, when you consider the main motivation behind the cartoons.

And again, although this was never the main point of the 'artists', the reaction to the cartoons is quite saddening. Imagine a decent cartoonist making a satirical comment on that. Wouldn't be pretty...
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post #131 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Something along the line of the Jyllands Posten is a bunch of provocative retrogrades.

I give Mohammad an A+. Short, to the point and excellent analysis.

Ten years ago I knew a social science student that had a bet going on with one of his fellow students: Who could get the most provocative racist "Letter to the editor" accepted in Jyllands Posten. Pretty scary.
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post #132 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Not true. There are many things not 'up for ridicule'.

There are also many things you cannot say or do unless you want to end up in jail.

But even if it was true - why is the right to ridicule so important? I know we are in a kind of kindergarten politically but do we really have to extend it to society as a whole?

Can you give an example of something not up for ridicule? The right to ridicule is important because debate is important. Ridicule is a part of debate.

Look, these cartoons about a terrorist Mohammed didn't come out of nowhere. There's a reason for asking whether Islam = terrorism: Lots of people are committing acts of terrorism in the name of Mohammed. Of course people are talking about that, and one of many ways that people talk about it is through cartoons like these.

What's ironic is that the Muslim world is known for their biting cartoons. They're good at them. They portray Jews with Nazi swastikas killing Palestinians, for example. Offensive? Yup, and that's exactly what they're intended to be. Art - cartoons being one example - can sometimes be offensive.
post #133 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell Can you give an example of something not up for ridicule? The right to ridicule is important because debate is important. Ridicule is a part of debate.

Sure, the Holocaust.

Not only can you not ridicule it (but why would you want to? Why should you have the right to? But then I would say the same about the founders of religions - why would you want to?) but you cannot question it.

If you do you get sent to jail - several people are languishing there right now in Europe for publishing 'Holocaust Denials'. Ok, so they are Nazis and I hate Nazis but so much for free speech.

I disagree that ridicule is part of debate also. Ridicule is the last resort of the intellectually-challenged, the haters and those who cannot debate.

I think it does have a place, especially in comedy, but it depends on who's doing it and why.

I have a friend who constantly takes the p out of me in a very offensive way but it is funny because he is my friend. If an enemy said exactly the same thing then it would not be the same situation.

You cannot just uphold 'ridicule' regardless of context. That's insane. It is also dangerous: Jackie Mason making Jewish jokes is different than David Duke making the same joke.

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Look, these cartoons about a terrorist Mohammed didn't come out of nowhere. There's a reason for asking whether Islam = terrorism: Lots of people are committing acts of terrorism in the name of Mohammed. Of course people are talking about that, and one of many ways that people talk about it is through cartoons like these.

Sure there's a reason: some people have an anti-Islam agenda. If they had a an anti-terrorist agenda then I would be with them. As is it is I have to look out for myself from both sides.

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What's ironic is that the Muslim world is known for their biting cartoons. They're good at them. They portray Jews with Nazi swastikas killing Palestinians, for example. Offensive? Yup, and that's exactly what they're intended to be. Art - cartoons being one example - can sometimes be offensive.

Then these cartoonists are Nazis also. Doesn't make it right.

But the thing is, I do not object to idiots creating puerile cartoons (especially as they can't debate and it is better to keep them out of that arena) whether Danish. I object to people lying in print. About anything.

That is why such things are anti-debate - how can you debate with someone who has no regard for facts?

The point of these cartoons is to equate Islam with terrorism. That is false. Every Muslim alive could become a terrorist tomorrow and it would still be false.

Deal with the terrorists however you like - but don't lie while doing it, there's really no need: the jihadis could not be much worse than they are.
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post #134 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Then these cartoonists are Nazis also. Doesn't make it right.

The point is not about the cartoonists. When the muslum world makes offensive cartoons about jews, you don't see burning arab embassies in Israel.

In my mind, this indicates that civil society in Lebanon and Syria is at a lower level than in Israel and the US. The muslum world is not a civilised world - they are little different than the barbarians that haunted the world 1000 years ago.

If the Christian religion had as much power in the US as Islam has in the middle east, then we would be having the same problems here (Christians burning movie studios when they felt offended by a particular movie, etc). Unfortunately, we may be headed in that direction - with Pat Robertson leading the way.
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post #135 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The point is not about the cartoonists. When the muslum world makes offensive cartoons about jews, you don't see burning arab embassies in Israel.

In my mind, this indicates that civil society in Lebanon and Syria is at a lower level than in Israel and the US. The muslum world is not a civilised world - they are little different than the barbarians that haunted the world 1000 years ago.

If the Christian religion had as much power in the US as Islam has in the middle east, then we would be having the same problems here (Christians burning movie studios when they felt offended by a particular movie, etc). Unfortunately, we may be headed in that direction - with Pat Robertson leading the way.

Don't necessarily disagree - although one could refine the argument somewhat for my taste but whatever - but that's not the point I am making.

The point is this:

To fix this problem someone (Muslims, non-Muslims or both) has to separate the religion form the extremists.

Before this can be done we also need to deal with the perception that Islam and terrorism is interchangeable.

This perception is understandable in the case of many non-Muslims who know little of Islam and are not interested (as is their right) but that is why informing and stating the truth is necessary.

Obviously the cartoons don't help this process as they are, imo, designed to serve the exact opposite aim.

Once the facts have beens stated then most reasonable people will adjust their attitude - those who refuse are part of the problem and probably some species of extremist themselves. they need marginalising too.

When all that has been done then Muslims can start reclaiming and re-invogorating the religion. I guess it's up to non-Mulsims whether they want to support this process (which is after all merely self-interest as it means the neutralizing of extremists) or hinder it like the cartoonists.
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post #136 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
[B]Because in a liberal society, everything is up for ridicule.

No, no it's not. Holocaust is not. The Armenian Genocide is not. Your mother is not. My mother is not.

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If they think it should be illegal, they simply don't believe in liberal society.

Where it's OK to make fun of one's beliefs and then 'apologize' for it? If its OK, why apologize?

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That's their choice, of course, and few Muslims have impressed me as believing in liberal society.

I'm sure they're sad that they haven't impressed you.

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Perhaps that's why today Islamic-dominated countries are virtually all dictatorships and Christian-dominated ones are liberal democracies?

Wrong. Lumping the entire Islamic World into some renegade theocracies in the Middle East is a logical fallacy. Only about 15-20% of ALL muslims live in the Middle East. 20% is a far cry from 'virtually all'.

And the 'christian dominated' term is again, wrong. Most of the liberal socities are in Europe and USA + Canada (USA is getting less liberal by the day btw). Almost all of Europe is predominantly secular, with not many religious Pat Robertsons, though I am sure they have a few of those too.

Although Christianity as such has ineed influenced Europe, it's influence was the highest around the period of the Spanish Inquisition in the Dark Ages. Beginning with the French Revolution, which paves the way for liberal socities, Christianity is isolated to its present position; decrying gay marriage and anti-abortion pamphlets. Just because people in those liberal socities are born Christian, does not mean that Christianity has any influence in the shapings and advancements of the liberal socities in those placea. Indeed, I would argue the opposite: just look at the USA and who's leading the anti-liberalization war.
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post #137 of 328
Thread Starter 
Aren´t you talking past eachother? One thing is the legal side of things, another is what you would do taking peoples feelings into consideration.
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post #138 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Obviously the cartoons don't help this process as they are, imo, designed to serve the exact opposite aim.

Everything in my life experience says that you are wrong.

Look at marriage - you think that you are sane and rational, but having to live with somebody brings up all your irrational behaviour patterns. If you didn't get married, those irrationalities would stay hidden in your mind - it is easy to stay calm, cool and collected when there is no stress causing you to freak out. Marriage brings the wierd stuff to the forefront, and it gets eroded off of you like the sharp edges on a rock at the beach.

The same thing happens with children - psycological studies on parents show them to be "less sane" than parents without children, but once the children leave home they are much more sane than couples that have never had kids. The kids bring up your wierd mental stuff and force you to work it out.

If nobody prints things to inflame the extremeists, then they will stay insane - but it will be a hidden insanity. The cartoonists are doing the muslum community a favor - the moderates will look around, and see that their neighbors are insane and violent, and the peaceful ones will distance and form their own community.

Once a moderate muslum community forms and aggressively distances themselves from the extremeists, then they have a chance to make progress. But the differences between the extremeists and the moderates are only hilighted during times of stress, so the cartoonists are doing the moderate muslum community a favor.
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post #139 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Wrong. Lumping the entire Islamic World into some renegade theocracies in the Middle East is a logical fallacy. Only about 15-20% of ALL muslims live in the Middle East. 20% is a far cry from 'virtually all'.

Yes, I was going to comment on this also but something happened - not sure what.....

Of that 20% let's look at the states:

Afghanistan and Iraq have allegedly been 'freed' so I guess we don;t count them. Even if we do then Saddam's regime was Ba'athist Marxist and very anti-Islamic.

In fact the Ba'ath party was founded by a Christian and has traditionally preferred Christian constituents - Tariq Aziz for example.

Ditto Syria: Ba'ath and engaged in violent suppression of Islamists. Massacre of Muslim Brotherhood at Hama for example.

So, no Islamic regimes yet.

Iran: Shi'i - ie a 15% minority of all Muslims (and thus the quoted 20%) and can no way be held as representative of Muslims. Unless one argues 15% is not a minority belief but a majority one. Someone will, trust me, someone will.

Has elections though - West doesn't like the results so they don't count but they happen all the same.

Saudi: good old Saudi - gotta love 'em. Yes, the extremists in person. Representative of a sect that is even more of a minority (5%?) and which was invented (with the help of the British) in the eighteenth century.

Anyway, major-league human rights abusers and our numebr one ally and, according to Bush, the model for the region.

Kuwait: number two human rights abusers traditionally - coincidentally number two ally also. the crimes of the al-Sabah family make Saddam look like a girl guide on some drug that makes you love everyone.

So yes, both the above are dictatorships, neither are Islamic and (perhaps that is why) they are out closest friends in the region. Well, maybe a few other reasons too.

I could go on but that w ill probably do for now.

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Although Christianity as such has ineed influenced Europe, it's influence was the highest around the period of the Spanish Inquisition in the Dark Ages.

Actually it is Islam and not Christianity that was the major influence on Europe. through Medieval Spain.

You know, the place that had running water, universities, street lights and hospitals while the rest of the continent languished in the dark ages for 600 years.
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post #140 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978 If nobody prints things to inflame the extremeists, then they will stay insane - but it will be a hidden insanity. The cartoonists are doing the muslum community a favor - the moderates will look around, and see that their neighbors are insane and violent, and the peaceful ones will distance and form their own community.

You are not listening - or misunderstanding maybe. I do not want the cartoons banned. I merely question the motivation and I disagree with the message.

The message, imho, is one which will prevent the solving of the problem which you and I both want (or should want) to be solved.
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post #141 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
No, no it's not. Holocaust is not. The Armenian Genocide is not. Your mother is not. My mother is not.

Can you provide a logical refutation other than "It's just not allowed"? If we are to have freedom of speech/expression (a liberal ideal) then (short of direct threats to life/limb, slander and libel, and the old "fire in a crowed theater" bit), we must tolerate speech which is offensive and even riducules "sacred cows". We are not called to like or even approve of it, but we must tolerate that it is allowed. We can even condemn such speech and expression as offensive and insulting (thereby exercising our similar freedoms).

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Wrong. Lumping the entire Islamic World into some renegade theocracies in the Middle East is a logical fallacy.

I wanted this be quoted so it won't be lost. I would modify the statement slightly as follows:

"Wrong. Lumping an entire group of people who hold a certain set of ideas or beliefs in with a relatively small percentage of extremists is a logical fallacy."

Would you accept my (more generalized) re-wording.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Although Christianity as such has ineed influenced Europe, it's influence was the highest around the period of the Spanish Inquisition in the Dark Ages. Beginning with the French Revolution, which paves the way for liberal socities,

Your apparent attempt to juxtapose the Spanish Inquisition (and Dark Ages) with the French Revolution and suggest them to be different things exposes your ignorance here. The American Revolution would have been a much better example.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Christianity is isolated to its present position; decrying gay marriage and anti-abortion pamphlets. Just because people in those liberal socities are born Christian, does not mean that Christianity has any influence in the shapings and advancements of the liberal socities in those placea. Indeed, I would argue the opposite: just look at the USA and who's leading the anti-liberalization war.

Whatever makes you feel better I guess.
post #142 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Can you provide a logical refutation other than "It's just not allowed"?

It is illegal in Germany and I think (though don't know 100%) in most of Europe to deny the Holocaust. People have been going to jail. In fact, a German citizen living in Canada (where there is no German jurisdiction) has been indicted by Germany and possibly even extradited by Canada on grounds that he denied the Holocaust. The Armenian Genocide is accepted as fact by law in France and lately in Switzerland. Try denying it there with cute little cartoons and see how far that gets you.

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If we are to have freedom of speech/expression (a liberal ideal) then (short of direct threats to life/limb, slander and libel, and the old "fire in a crowed theater" bit), we must tolerate speech which is offensive and even riducules "sacred cows". We are not called to like or even approve of it, but we must tolerate that it is allowed. We can even condemn such speech and expression as offensive and insulting (thereby exercising our similar freedoms).

This would be great had there not been legal precedent in Europe and EU (where this cartoon was produced) claiming otherwise: freedom of speech is OK, as long as it doesn't do "this" and "that". I gave you some examples.

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I wanted this be quoted so it won't be lost. I would modify the statement slightly as follows:

"Wrong. Lumping an entire group of people who hold a certain set of ideas or beliefs in with a relatively small percentage of extremists is a logical fallacy."

Would you accept my (more generalized) re-wording.

Yes, sure I would.

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Your apparent attempt to juxtapose the Spanish Inquisition (and Dark Ages) with the French Revolution and suggest them to be different things exposes your ignorance here. The American Revolution would have been a much better example.

No, I'm not attempting to do anything. I'm merely pointing out different periods in European history when Christianity (or indeed, any religion) had a lot of influence and when it didn't have as much and different results. You are free to draw your own conclusions.


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Whatever makes you feel better I guess.

This is a factual statement. The religious right in America are conservative in their beliefs (it is within their rights to be so) and it's the opposite of the liberal left in America. The religious right uses religious arguments to strengthen their case for the de-liberalization of the American society, the liberal left uses exclusively philosophical and political/sociological arguments. Check out groverat's signature, and you'll see what I mean. You can't spin it.
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post #143 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
It is illegal in Germany and I think (though don't know 100%) in most of Europe to deny the Holocaust. People have been going to jail. In fact, a German citizen living in Canada (where there is no German jurisdiction) has been indicted by Germany and possibly even extradited by Canada on grounds that he denied the Holocaust. The Armenian Genocide is accepted as fact by law in France and lately in Switzerland. Try denying it there with cute little cartoons and see how far that gets you.

All this says is that some countries have deemed certain subjects to be sacred by law.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
No, I'm not attempting to do anything. I'm merely pointing out different periods in European history when Christianity (or indeed, any religion) had a lot of influence and when it didn't have as much and different results. You are free to draw your own conclusions.

Don't be coy here. You were clearly trying to raise the inquisition as an example of the "bad" influence Christianity had, while the French revolution as the "good" that "paved the way for liberalization" (which is arguable with their slight detour into the reign of terror where they exposed themselves to be the same as the inquisitors...with a different doctrine).

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Christianity is isolated to its present position; decrying gay marriage and anti-abortion pamphlets. Just because people in those liberal socities are born Christian, does not mean that Christianity has any influence in the shapings and advancements of the liberal socities in those placea. Indeed, I would argue the opposite: just look at the USA and who's leading the anti-liberalization war.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
This is a factual statement.



You might be able to pass off subjective, qualitative statements as "fact" in your own mind...but this doesn't fly elsewhere.
post #144 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
It is illegal in Germany and I think (though don't know 100%) in most of Europe to deny the Holocaust. People have been going to jail. In fact, a German citizen living in Canada (where there is no German jurisdiction) has been indicted by Germany and possibly even extradited by Canada on grounds that he denied the Holocaust. The Armenian Genocide is accepted as fact by law in France and lately in Switzerland. Try denying it there with cute little cartoons and see how far that gets you.

The illegal holocaust denial is special for Germany afaik and I don´t know of anything like that anywhere else in Europe. You are saying it is illegal to deny the Armenian Genocide in France and Switzerland? Not that I don´t believe you but if you have a link I would be very interested in reading about it.

I think it is very stupid to make laws like that. Holocaust is a fact but everybody should be free to question every fact.
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post #145 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders The illegal holocaust denial is special for Germany afaik and I don´t know of anything like that anywhere else in Europe.

Holocaust denial is currently a crime in Austria, France, Germany, Israel, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania and Switzerland.

Britain are considering passing a law presently.
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post #146 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Holocaust denial is currently a crime in Austria, France, Germany, Israel, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania and Switzerland.

Britain are considering passing a law presently.

Wow! Free speech is on the march.

Man, that is amazing.
post #147 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Holocaust denial is currently a crime in Austria, France, Germany, Israel, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania and Switzerland.

Britain are considering passing a law presently.

Thats bad
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post #148 of 328
Well, a half-dozen people have been killed in rioting over these cartoons.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...sts/index.html

I hate to be blunt, but the rioters need to GROW THE ---- UP. It's a cartoon. A rude one, an offensive one, sure. But you don't kill people over cartoons. Was I mad when a Saudi government newspaper said that Jews kill Muslim babies and drink their blood? Yes. Was I mad when the Iranian president denied the Holocaust? Yes. Am I annoyed by David Duke and the rants about Jews on his web page? Of course. Have I been mad when countless anti-Semitic things have been said nationwide and worldwide? Of course.

But you don't KILL PEOPLE OVER A CARTOON. One would have hoped that this sort of thing was self-evident.
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post #149 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
Well, a half-dozen people have been killed in rioting over these cartoons.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I do love irony.
post #150 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mitlov
Well, a half-dozen people have been killed in rioting over these cartoons.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...sts/index.html

I hate to be blunt, but the rioters need to GROW THE ---- UP. It's a cartoon. A rude one, an offensive one, sure. But you don't kill people over cartoons. Was I mad when a Saudi government newspaper said that Jews kill Muslim babies and drink their blood? Yes. Was I mad when the Iranian president denied the Holocaust? Yes. Am I annoyed by David Duke and the rants about Jews on his web page? Of course. Have I been mad when countless anti-Semitic things have been said nationwide and worldwide? Of course.

But you don't KILL PEOPLE OVER A CARTOON. One would have hoped that this sort of thing was self-evident.

I agree.

I just realised I just hate everyone involved: The newspaper, our prime for not putting distance to them, those who took this internationally, those who rioted AND those who wants to make these kinds of STUPID expressions illegal.
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post #151 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I just realised I just hate everyone involved

Anders...I think you should express your hatred with violence! Burn some flags or throw some bricks at something/someone!



I tell ya...gymnasium...pick sides...red rubber "playground balls"...last man (or woman) standing "wins".

DISCLAIMER: Nothing in this post should be interpteted as an attempt to incite violence by anyone against anyone, merely my free expression of (attempted) humor.
post #152 of 328
This is classic: http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt...60206&hn=29458

We'll show you insulting, offensive westerners. We'll let our people go without your medicine!

Geez.
post #153 of 328
segovius and GeneClean:

You say that the holocaust is off-limits? Not in my country it's not, not in Israel, and certainly not in Muslim countries, where Nazi cartoons are a favorite:




I find this issue to be a litmus test. Conservatives like the theocrats in the Middle East, in the Bush administration, and the new conservative Pope will denounce the cartoons. Liberals like me will say that offense is a corollary of a liberal and open society, so deal with it, because our core values are not going to change for some theocratic thuggery.
post #154 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I find this issue to be a litmus test. Conservatives like the theocrats in the Middle East, in the Bush administration, and the new conservative Pope will denounce the cartoons. Liberals like me will say that offense is a corollary of a liberal and open society, so deal with it, because our core values are not going to change for some theocratic thuggery.

Denouncing them (assuming that means saying "they are in poor taste and insulting and hurtful and untrue" or some such) and recognizing them as "a corollary of a liberal and open society" are not mutually exclusive things.

However denouncing and saying "there oughta be a law" (or threatening/committing violent acts) is at odds with saying "that offense is a corollary of a liberal and open society, so deal with it, because our core values are not going to change for some theocratic thuggery".
post #155 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
segovius and GeneClean:

You say that the holocaust is off-limits?[

I say the denial of Holocaust is illegal in certain countries in Europe. Don't confuse these two.

Quote:
Not in my country it's not

What is this 'my country' you speak of? USA? Because then it would be my country as well, if you don't mind.

Quote:

Which has nothing to do with the fact that denying the Holocaust is illegal in some countries of Europe, incidentally member of the EU, of which Denmark is a part.

Quote:
and certainly not in Muslim countries, where Nazi cartoons are a favorite

But you're the one saying that 'liberal societies' have freedom of speech. And I just proved that that freedom of speech is just bollocks. If it weren't, somebody would be able to say things like 'I don't believe the Holocaust happened' or 'The Holocaust may have happened, but Hitler was a Jew-loving guy' without being indicted and quite possibly be jailed in some of these 'liberal socities'.

Nobody was talking about 'Muslim countries' as such, because the cartoons were drawn in Denmark, a European country and you defended that by saying that there is no limit on freedom of speech in liberal societies. Now that you have been proven wrong on the limits of freedom of speech, now you modify your argument to say that 'well, they do it too!' - very convincing.

Quote:
I find this issue to be a litmus test. Conservatives like the theocrats in the Middle East, in the Bush administration, and the new conservative Pope will denounce the cartoons. Liberals like me will say that offense is a corollary of a liberal and open society, so deal with it, because our core values are not going to change for some theocratic thuggery.

I question 'your' core values when you allow one type of freedom of speech, yet ban another. With jail time.
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post #156 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Denouncing them (assuming that means saying "they are in poor taste and insulting and hurtful and untrue" or some such) and recognizing them as "a corollary of a liberal and open society" are not mutually exclusive things.

However denouncing and saying "there oughta be a law" (or threatening/committing violent acts) is at odds with saying "that offense is a corollary of a liberal and open society, so deal with it, because our core values are not going to change for some theocratic thuggery".

Yes, you're right. But I'll go another step: I disagree with people who say that cartoons that are offensive to Muslims shouldn't be published. I think they should be published, because that is one of the ways an open society debates. If you are so sensitive that you believe you shouldn't be criticized in that fashion, you simply haven't accepted the premise of an open society.

I think you'd agree that Christians take plenty of criticism in the US, despite being the (overwhelming) majority religion. And people who ridicule Christians are themselves criticized in return, and on it goes. But there's a difference here. There isn't a belief that it shouldn't occur, like there is with this Mohammed cartoon business. Well there may be among some people, and those are the people I disagree with.
post #157 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
I say the denial of Holocaust is illegal in certain countries in Europe. Don't confuse these two.

As a liberal, I disagree with making any of that speech illegal, whether it's Holocaust denial or Mohammed bomb-head cartoons.

But actually, you didn't just refer to the illegality of holocaust denial in some parts of Europe. You said the holocaust can't be ridiculed, nor can the Armenian genocide, nor mothers. Unless I'm mistaken, there's no mother-ridiculing law in Denmark. So you're not just talking illegality, and there we disagree. I believe that being offended is an unavoidbale consequence of living in a liberal society, and if you can't take it, you're not really a member of that liberal society.
post #158 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
As a liberal, I disagree with making any of that speech illegal, whether it's Holocaust denial or Mohammed bomb-head cartoons.

But actually, you didn't just refer to the illegality of holocaust denial in some parts of Europe. You said the holocaust can't be ridiculed, nor can the Armenian genocide, nor mothers. Unless I'm mistaken, there's no mother-ridiculing law in Denmark. So you're not just talking illegality, and there we disagree. I believe that being offended is an unavoidbale consequence of living in a liberal society, and if you can't take it, you're not really a member of that liberal society.

Hypothetically, what if there is some fundamental flaw in European society, and the only thing holding them back from another holocost is the law that stops people from denying it (for example in "white power" rallies)?

Is it worth it to have free speach in that case?

Canada does not really have free speach either, as they shut down neo-nazis. I always kind of appriciated that, although once the government had that power they tended to extend it to do things that I didn't like (like banning the animated "Heavy Metal" movie).
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post #159 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
(like banning the animated "Heavy Metal" movie)

Wait...umm...you mean that's still legal?!?!

post #160 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Hypothetically, what if there is some fundamental flaw in European society, and the only thing holding them back from another holocost is the law that stops people from denying it (for example in "white power" rallies)?

Is it worth it to have free speach in that case?

If we got so far out then restriction of speech would not save us.
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