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Soooo. Anyone heard some news from Denmark lately? - Page 8

post #281 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
A free market doesn't do squat for them. China has a free market - look at the state of their liberal elite: either jailed or dead.

A liberal movement with strong connections to traditionalists that are willing to discuss rationally about reform and the necessity of it is what is needed today in some parts of the Muslim world (mostly Middle East).

Economic woes do lead to frustration and anger, but their disappearance would not make for a happy and scrappy youth either. The change should come from within, and it shouldn't be focused (only) on the material side of things.

Of course. Reform has to be a full package, not just a free market. While China has a long way to go, the changes since June 4, 1989 are extraordinary.
post #282 of 328
I don't think we're in Vienna any more, Toto.

Is this true?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #283 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I don't think we're in Vienna any more, Toto.

David Irving will have to disagree, Coco.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #284 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I don't think we're in Vienna any more, Toto.

Is this true?

Interesting bits:

"The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) is pressing for a ban on religious intolerance to be part of the bedrock of a planned new United Nations human rights body."

Translated:

"The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) is pressing for intolerance of intolerance to be part of the bedrock of a planned new United Nations human rights body."

Also:

Qaradawi pointed out that there is a difference between freedom of expression and freedom of insulting.

Hmmm...I really wonder. Is there any? Isn't one man's expression another man's insult? I mean (and I said this before), I think people ought to use some tact and thought before deliberately insulting someone (or some group)...but the moment we starting thinking that insulting someone should be illegal, we may have a problem.

And:

"Freedom of expression is all about expressing an opinion. In the cartoons case, there is no opinion or counter-opinion," he said.

Oh...I don't know...seems that the opinion expressed is quite obvious. Just that many didn't like (or agree with) it.




And:

The Norwegian delegation assured the renowned scholar that Article 135-A of the Norwegian Penal Code orders a maximum penalty of three years in jail for publishing articles mocking religions or ethnic groups.


Delightful. Perhaps the U.S. will be next. We can only hope. \
post #285 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
David Irving will have to disagree, Coco.

Good article.
post #286 of 328
I'm pressing for intolerance of intolerance of intolerance....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #287 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The Norwegian delegation assured the renowned scholar that Article 135-A of the Norwegian Penal Code orders a maximum penalty of three years in jail for publishing articles mocking religions or ethnic groups.

The Scientologists will have a field day. I need to start a religion!
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #288 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The Scientologists will have a field day. I need to start a religion!

I need to become a judge.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #289 of 328
Thread Starter 
Seg: I don´t believe that Kierkegaard quote is correct. Where did you find it?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #290 of 328
Thread Starter 
I think it comes from this:

Quote:
Menneskene er dog urimelige. De bruger aldrig de friheder de har, men kræver dem de ikke har. De har tænkefrihed: de kræver ytringsfrihed. De har ytringsfrihed, de kræver medbestemmelse. De har medbestemmelse, de vil have ret.

Which in my rough translation is:

Quote:
People are strange/unfair. They never use the freedoms they have but demand those they do not have: They have freedom of thought, They want freedom of speech. They have freedom of speech, they want influence. They have influence, they want to be right.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #291 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The Norwegian delegation assured the renowned scholar that Article 135-A of the Norwegian Penal Code orders a maximum penalty of three years in jail for publishing articles mocking religions or ethnic groups.


Delightful. Perhaps the U.S. will be next. We can only hope. \

As a norwegian, I can assure you all that this is utter bullshit. The last time this was used against blasphemy in Norway was in the 70s I believe...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #292 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Seg: I don´t believe that Kierkegaard quote is correct. Where did you find it?

On Wikiquote.

Not sure if it's correct translation though - never had much time for Kierkegaard.

There is a variant given on the Wiki which may itself be a variant of your quote.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #293 of 328
Well, New -- if not -- no more Monty Python. Anyone for The Life of Rafat?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #294 of 328
segovious:

Anders mentioned your sig line, and I took a look at it.

If it were me, I probably wouldn't pick out a passage right in the middle of Christ telling his disciples that they are about to be sent out in the world to be rejected and Killed (with a capital k).
Quote:
Matt 10: -->16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

....and it goes on, at length, you can check it out here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #295 of 328
You know, I'm not an author, but I think I've worked on enough marketing books to not have missed the subhead on beating a dead horse.

This is starting to get seriously phony.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #296 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This is starting to get seriously phony.

Yeah, they just placed on order for 15,000 plastic dummies with Halliburton.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #297 of 328
Newsflash!! The Alert Level has been raised!



from here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #298 of 328
Is that for Cheney when people walk in front of his gun and he gets offended by it?

1 guy, slightly offended. 2 guys, somewhat offended...
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #299 of 328
Interesting article in the Japan Times.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #300 of 328
Here is some pure-as-the-driven-snow journalism that's interesting.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #301 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Here is some pure-as-the-driven-snow journalism that's interesting.

Quote:
But the media censors itself about the cartoons mocking the prophet of a religion many of whose adherents want to destroy our country and our way of life.

We have surrendered our free expression to people who are at war with us. They kill us in the name of a religion and we bow and scrape to that religion while letting people dump on Christianity and Judaism.

What's interesting about that?

Predictable, superficial and inane perhaps. Unsurprising and totally predictable, of course.

Interesting - no.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #302 of 328
This is a bit clearer, and to the point.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #303 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This is a bit clearer, and to the point.

Quote:
Sorry, the page you requested was not found.
The story or page you were trying to access may have expired.

Yep, guess so.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #304 of 328
Try that link again, AI was weirding out there for a second.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #305 of 328
Just one more -- a story on compromise.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #306 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz


Just one more -- a story on compromise.

Ok, I make it a rule never to post links to my own stuff but I have had so much more than I can take about this 'forbidden images' nonsense and I can't be bothered to go rambling off-topic though I have a bee in my bonnet about this.

For the last time - it is not true in any way, shape or form. Islamic Art is to a large extent based on figurative representation.

Here's my rant

And here's some pictures of Prophets.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #307 of 328
you two should chill a bit,

Im officially back now, i know you both missed me....
post #308 of 328
I'm not going to read that segovius -- and don't take this the wrong way, or as nasty, or anything else -- but, I'm not your groupie. You may very well have a slam-dunk point. Regardless, there are plenty -- apparently most -- 'Muslims' that don't have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about; and in any case we're going to have to learn to live with those people.

That said, I think your understanding of Islam is analogous to The Bishop Gene Robinson's understanding of traditional Christianity. The WSJ had an Op-Ed by lesbian Muslim Irshad Manji a week or two ago that echos what you say about Islam -- I would imagine she is in the same position as Robinson. This seems to be something of a parallel universe of ideas -- but there is still the reality to contend with -- and it's getting to be more and more intrusive.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113902160347965090.html

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #309 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I'm not going to read that

Imagine my shock - know you know why I didn't bother typing anything in a vain attempt at discussion.

But let's get on to more serious matters - do you like my new sig - I listened to your criticism of the last one
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #310 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
you two should chill a bit,

Im officially back now, i know you both missed me....


Don't worry MarcUK -- I think things are probably 1000% more civil than, say a year ago.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #311 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
But let's get on to more serious matters - do you like my new sig - I listened to your criticism of the last one


Loooooovley!!

...and don't get me wrong, you've studied Islam, and I have not -- and to support your point I have seen the pictures of the Prophet -- I just think, even if it's just a placeholder you may have to separate Islam from 'Islam".

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #312 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz

Loooooovley!!

...and don't get me wrong, you've studied Islam, and I have not -- and to support your point I have seen the pictures of the Prophet -- I just think, even if it's just a placeholder you may have to seprate Islam from 'Islam".

No, you have to separate the extremists and literalists - Wahabis, Salafis etc, from Islam.

Until you do that personally you will never understand this issue (you don't have to understand it but you seem compelled to talk about it a lot so you might as well get it right) and more importantly, the problem of 'terrorism' and extremism will never be solved until people generally (especially our 'leaders') make this separation.

Of course they can't because they are tied in to business and deals with just these people - fair enough, but until they address it they can never beat extremism.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #313 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No, you have to separate the extremists and literalists - Wahabis, Salafis etc, from Islam.

Until you do that personally you will never understand this issue (you don't have to understand it but you seem compelled to talk about it a lot so you might as well get it right) and more importantly, the problem of 'terrorism' and extremism will never be solved until people generally (especially our 'leaders') make this separation.

Of course they can't because they are tied in to business and deals with just these people - fair enough, but until they address it they can never beat extremism.

Yes, but don't you see Islam as a philosophical system -- that is -- while it has branches, there is a core group of adherents that are genuinely effected by that system? Wouldn't you say you're bringing postmodern, or Kantian thought to the table, in your (or Manji's) approach to Islam?

I tend to see people like Robinson or more reasonably, Karl Barth, attempting to supersede, in the Case of Christianity, it's underpinnings.

2002 Baileyana Pinot Noir and Preston Reed's Ladies Night. I have to go learn Quickbooks -- I'll be pounding nails in my head after that. More later.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #314 of 328
All theologies are flawed one way or the other, catholic theologies are flawed, sunni theologies are flawed, shia theologies are flawed.

That's why it's necessary to keep theologies in flux

Sunnism made the mistake to declare a certain theology developed at a certain period of time, based on highly questionable belief in hadith-collections, as being infallible, and as such fell into the trap of an eternal orthodoxy that nearly prevents adjustments and progress, supported by the belief that everything is predestined by God.

Wahabism is sunnism taken to the extreme by abolishing the last two tools that sunni-Islam had to adjust, namely the consensus and the analogy.

Al-Qaeeda's ideology, developed from Qutb and some other people, is in contrast to sunnism a very modern development. It combines the group-specific identity of the ancient Kharajites with modern developments of nationalism and totalitarism, and basically rejects the notion of predestination that is the hall-mark of orthodox sunnism, and therefore calls for active action against what they perceive to be a threat against Islam, namely the modern world as a whole, symbolised by the Soviet-Union and then by the US.

These modern islamistic ideologies and their manifests cutted the ties with the past, and what was forbidden is the past is now portrayed as desirable, suicide (-bombing, has its roots in hinduistic and shintoistic practices, most prominently by the tamil-rebels and the japanese kamikazes) killing of innocents to win a war (practiced by the european and US-forces during the last century), everything in order to avert or revert the intrusion of the american empire into the islamic world. The goal sanctifies the means so to speak.

These ideologies are an open challenge for moderate Islamism and moderate Islam to rediscover the human's free will and to modernise our theology and not to leave the task to zealots.

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #315 of 328
Jyllands-Posten has a response to the cartoon fiasco.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #316 of 328
That's more of a fiasco than the cartoons themselves.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #317 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Jyllands-Posten has a response to the cartoon fiasco.

Notice its not JPs response. Its a manifest by a very honorable group of people who don´t understand the origin of the cartoon debate.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #318 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Notice its not JPs response. Its a manifest by a very honorable group of people who don´t understand the origin of the cartoon debate.

Including some not so honourable people - all united by a common agenda fuelled by simplification, misunderstanding and general lack of insight.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #319 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
[B]Notice its not JPs response.

That's why it's a fiasco; they're using other people to justify their opinions and campaigns.

Quote:
Its a manifest by a very honorable group of people who don´t understand the origin of the cartoon debate.

While there are some OK people in there, I wouldn't call people who are clearly anti-Muslim (as opposed to anti-Islamist) 'an honorable group of people' at all. Especially Rushdie, who does have a right to say whatever he wants to say and not be persecuted about it, but he's not someone to criticize Islam or Muslims when it's perfectly clear that his 'critique' is not only not constructive and helpful, but very much a double-edged sword of pushing his anti-Muslim agenda while appearing to be just reminiscing on the state of Islam and Muslims in general.

I don't buy the words of one extremist more than the words of another.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #320 of 328
Thread Starter 
Rushdie anti-islam? Do you have a link?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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