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Soooo. Anyone heard some news from Denmark lately? - Page 9

post #321 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Rushdie anti-islam? Do you have a link?

Rushdie is a Muslim as is Irshad Manji - but I would argue they are both anti-Islam.

The problem with the cartoons - from a progressive intellectual pov as opposed to a literalist/Islamist one - is that they made no distinction between what we might call "Original Islam" or "Authentic Islam" (as exemplified by the figure of Muhammad) and the "Jihadist Islam" or Islamist versions. In fact the cartoons by choosing Muhammad as the central figure (as opposed to OBL say) make this point quite clearly: that the two are the same, are interchangeable and that Islam itself is extreme.

Rushdie and Manji buy into - or let's say, actively promote - this view.

As this view is false and a corruption - which is why there exist progressives within Islam as opposed to people just leaving it - then by definition it is anti-Islamic.

It is anti-Islamic because it is based on the premise that the extremism is an integral part of Islam as opposed to a deviation.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #322 of 328
Thread Starter 
Is the manifesto the only evidence of Rushdie being anti Islam?

If so then reread it again. He doesn´t say anything about the cartoons or why they were published. He is only talking about the reactions.

I might disagree with him about the size of the danger of radical political islam. But there is nothing wrong in seperating the publishing of the cartoons and the reactions. There is a problem in a culture when a publisher feels there is no moral problem with lablling a large part of the believers of a faith as connected to terrorism. But the reactions of burning embassies, state sanctioned boycot, and threats on the lifes of others and on a whole state is another subject and it is not anti-islam to disconnect the two for the sake of an argument.

When I try to critizise the publishing of the cartoons in discussion here, they are often defended by the reactions in ME and SEA even if it is two seperate issues ("well the paper was right. Just see the reactions"). If I insist on seperating the two issues in questioning the decision of JP, then I must grant Rushdie the same when he tries to put radical Islam to question.
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post #323 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
That's why it's a fiasco; they're using other people to justify their opinions and campaigns.

Strictly speaking no. They are acting like every paper would. The main opponent to JP among the papers here (Politiken, which I might add was funded by my great grand father a century ago) also published the manifesto today on its front page. It would be very strange for a newspaper in Denmak not to publish it.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #324 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Strictly speaking no. They are acting like every paper would.

Like every paper that is trying to hide behind some farcical "manifesto" maybe.

Quote:
It would be very strange for a newspaper in Denmak not to publish it.

Which just goes to show that JP ain't the only one.

Quote:
Ibn Warraq
Ibn Warraq , author notably of Why I am Not a Muslim ; Leaving Islam : Apostates Speak Out ; and The Origins of the Koran , is at present Research Fellow at a New York Institute conducting philological and historical research into the Origins of Islam and its Holy Book.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #325 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Like every paper that is trying to hide behind some farcical "manifesto" maybe.

Ibn Warraq is a pseudonym - it has traditionally been used throughout history by many apostates from Islam.

Also the 'New York Institute' is a curious phrasing and I would like to know more about what sort of Institute it might be and what it's focus of activities is.

As to the rest on the list, they are a curious rabble. Manji is so pro-Israeli that I have a hard time believing she is not some sort of Zionist - certainly she often speaks at Zionist rallies. Always against Palestinians.

Rushdie we know about but the tie-in to the Van Gogh affair is fascinating.

Is this rather motley crew really the best they can do?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #326 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
[B]Ibn Warraq is a pseudonym - it has traditionally been used throughout history by many apostates from Islam.

So basically, that could be anybody - even Pat Robertson.

Quote:
Also the 'New York Institute' is a curious phrasing and I would like to know more about what sort of Institute it might be and what it's focus of activities is.

That's the Institute for... something... and something...

Quote:
As to the rest on the list, they are a curious rabble. Manji is so pro-Israeli that I have a hard time believing she is not some sort of Zionist - certainly she often speaks at Zionist rallies. Always against Palestinians.

How dare you mention Zionism. Anti-Semite!

Quote:
Rushdie we know about but the tie-in to the Van Gogh affair is fascinating.

Notice that Dutch MP that's also the writer of 'Submission' ? That's an objective source I tells ya.

Quote:
Is this rather motley crew really the best they can do?

...and a new round of cartoons maybe. For the sake of ol' times!
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #327 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
...and a new round of cartoons maybe. For the sake of ol' times!

Nah, the next manufactured outrage lined up is apparently a hot babe. At least it beats the hell out of looking at badly drawn cartoons of ugly bearded guys with bombs on their heads.

I wasn't quite ready to buy into the provovation meme myself but literally minutes after I read it I happened to see our old friend Irshad Manji has recorded her heat-seeking controversial fatwa-bait with the self same 'feminist artiste' so something's definitely afoot.

If that's not good for a few death threats and the outside chance of a riot then I'm a Swiss gnome.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #328 of 328
A bit more on the reputation and credentials of JP and similar newspapers in Denmark:

Quote:
Stance on immigration

Jyllands-Posten has been criticised by a number of organisations for having an anti-minority and anti-migrant agenda. In 2002 the Danish Council of the Press, criticised the newspaper for breaching its regulations on race while reporting on three Somalis charged with a crime.[8]. The relevant regulation was: "Any mention of family relations, occupation, race, nationality, faith or relationship to an organisation ought to be avoided, unless this has a direct relevance to the case,"

Two days before the national election of November 20, 2001, Jyllands-Posten published a story alleging asylum fraud by resident Palestinian refugees in Denmark. This was one factor contributing to the electoral success of Anders Fogh Rasmussen, whose political party campaigned for reduced immigration. The story was fraudulent and resulted in the sacking of the editor-in-chief Ulrik Haagerup on December 12, 2001 (Politiken, Berlingske Tidende, Information, B.T., December 13, 2001). However, Jyllands-Posten maintained that the dismissal of Haagerup had nothing to do with his responsibility for the articles in question (editorial on December 16, 2001). According to Weekendavisen, a newspaper, which pretty much shares the political line of Jyllands-Posten, the real reason for Haagerup's dismissal was a disagreement about the employment strategy (December 21, 2001).

Over the 3-month period studied, from September 1 to November 20, 2004, 19 of the 24 Jyllands-Posten's editorials on "ethnic issues" were negative; 88 of the 120 opinion and editorial pieces on "ethnics" were negative; and 121 of the 148 letters from readers to the editor on "ethnics" were negative. The Danish cultural relativism magazine Faklen ("The Torch") has collected the anti-immigrant editorials posted by Jyllands-Posten concerning Danish immigrants. They conclude that a large number of editorials have been slanted against immigrants.[9]

A journalist employed at Jyllands-Posten won a second prize in 2005 in an EU wide competition for journalists for diversity and against discrimination. The compilation of several articles "The Integration Paper" by Orla Borg was awarded the second prize.[10]

The 2004 report on Denmark by the European Network Against Racism (ENAR), an organisation of NGOs funded partly by the European Commission, concluded that the Danish media devoted an excessive proportion of their time to the problems posed by immigrants, and most often Islamic immigrants, while often ignoring the problems that these immigrants face. According to the ENAR report, out of 382 JP articles on immigrants, 212 were negative, a share similar to other Danish newspapers, though the articles in the newspaper did not appear to be any more anti-immigrant than other Danish papers. The ENAR report holds newspapers such as Jyllands-Posten to blame for the rise of the anti-immigrant right-wing in Danish politics.[11]

A mighty soldier we have on the Fight For Freedom of Speech.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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