or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Soooo. Anyone heard some news from Denmark lately?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Soooo. Anyone heard some news from Denmark lately? - Page 3

post #81 of 328
1) The cartoons are unbelievably offensive and inappropriate.

2) I find this kind of response to be a bit ironic.

from the second paragraph:

Quote:
"The dispute spread to London for the first time. More than 500 people, led by the extremist group al-Ghuraba, formerly al-Mujahiroun, marched to the Danish embassy in Knightsbridge carrying banners calling on Muslims to "massacre" those who insult Islam and chanting: "Britain, you will pay, 7/7 on its way."

So....uh, yeah. The way that we will protest a cartoon that depicts muslims comitting violent acts is to.....threaten to massacre those who are responsible?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #82 of 328
Thread Starter 
Hmm. DEmonstrators have burned the danish embassy in Syria. Me don´t like this
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
post #83 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Educate ....... ill-informed Muslims about what Islam really is.

That sounds more than little presumptuous; governments are making official protests about this.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #84 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
That sounds more than little presumptuous; governments are making official protests about this.

I am protesting too. Just not about what you and the western media think I am.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #85 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I am protesting too. Just not about what you and the western media think I am.

???

At the very least, do you see this as "Islam" [sorry, generalizing] projecting animus?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #86 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
???

At the very least, do you see this as "Islam" [sorry, generalizing] projecting animus?

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Please be clearer.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #87 of 328
Basically projecting animus, an animus that isn't really there -- usually a sign of inward animus. Probably encouraged by various domestic media apparatus.

You see this in Cuba, when Castro takes something like Elian Gonzales and turns it into the 'yet more evidence that the capitalist, imperialist swine' are up to no good. The extreme right does the same thing with Black Helicopters.
(again gross generalization)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #88 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Basically projecting animus, an animus that isn't really there -- usually a sign of inward animus. Probably encouraged by various domestic media apparatus.

You see this in Cuba, when Castro takes something like Elian Gonzales and turns it into the 'yet more evidence that the capitalist, imperialist swine' are up to no good. The extreme right does the same thing with Black Helicopters.
(again gross generalization)

Still not clear. Are you saying that the Islamic world (or portions of it) is projecting onto these cartoons (and other actions) something that only exists within their own collective mindset?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #89 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Still not clear. Are you saying that the Islamic world (or portions of it) is projecting onto these cartoons (and other actions) something that only exists within their own collective mindset?

Yes, but only partially. Basically using this as a pretext to maintain the status quo of belligerence. Good cop/Bad cop. "Hey, we've got these hotheads, might as well put them to good use."

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #90 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Yes, but only partially. Basically using this as a pretext to maintain the status quo of belligerence. Good cop/Bad cop. "Hey, we've got these hotheads, might as well put them to good use."

I'm sorry, I'm not a hothead. No-one I know is a hothead. I only ever met two in my life that can recall in thousands of encounters. All I want is to try to find some common ground, to have some peace, talk sense and to be able to stand before God when the time comes with a clear conscience.

I'm getting tired and feeling sicker by the day. Don;t have much to add.. Sorry.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #91 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I'm sorry, I'm not a hothead. No-one I know is a hothead. I only ever met two in my life that can recall in thousands of encounters. All I want is to try to find some common ground, to have some peace, talk sense and to be able to stand before God when the time comes with a clear conscience.

I'm getting tired and feeling sicker by the day. Don;t have much to add.. Sorry.

No, No, No, No!

I don't mean you at all, or perhaps even your 'average' Muslim either. I mean that this could be pathos of some sort being leveraged by various Muslim govenments.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #92 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
No, No, No, No!

I don't mean you at all, or perhaps even your 'average' Muslim either. I mean that this could be pathos of some sort being leveraged by various Muslim govenments.

Me too...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #93 of 328
deleted dumb post

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #94 of 328
How about the Muslims stop bitching and mount their own witty offensive on Jesus. All that censorship does is hide issues.
post #95 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
How about the Muslims stop bitching and mount their own witty offensive on Jesus. All that censorship does is hide issues.

Not sure I get your point.

Oh it must be that two wrongs make a right.

No, maybe it is that one good slap deserves another.

BTW...what does Jesus have to do with this?

This is really a simple issue.

1. Someone exercised (what I assume is) their right of freedom of expression but did so with poor judgement, taste and little regard for those they might offend and hurt in the process.

2. Many have condemned the action.

3. Some have threatened life and limb.

1 & 2 are legal and allowed under the "freedom of expression". 3 is not.

I think people ought to use some modicum of taste and respect in excercising their freedom of expression. But some won't. It happens.

The best thing that Muslims (or anyone else for that matter) could have done here was to simply politely express their displeasure with the cartoons, pehaps write a letter to the editor, and prayed for these souls to learn some sensitivity and tact. BTW...same goes for Christians or any other group that gets offended by something similar to this.
post #96 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Not sure I get your point.

Oh it must be that two wrongs make a right.

No, maybe it is that one good slap deserves another.

BTW...what does Jesus have to do with this?

This is really a simple issue.

1. Someone exercised (what I assume is) their right of freedom of expression but did so with poor judgement, taste and little regard for those they might offend and hurt in the process.

2. Many have condemned the action.

3. Some have threatened life and limb.

1 & 2 are legal and allowed under the "freedom of expression". 3 is not.

I think people ought to use some modicum of taste and respect in excercising their freedom of expression. But some won't. It happens.

The best thing that Muslims (or anyone else for that matter) could have done here was to simply politely express their displeasure with the cartoons, pehaps write a letter to the editor, and prayed for these souls to learn some sensitivity and tact. BTW...same goes for Christians or any other group that gets offended by something similar to this.

Agree entirely. Had to be said.

Placebo's 'solution' is that we all sink to the lowest common denominator and exercise the 'right' to insult one another whatever the consequences and with no sense of responsibility.

A real shame that a noble concept such as freedom has come to this: merely that I have the right to insult you back when you insult me.

Sad.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #97 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The best thing that Muslims (or anyone else for that matter) could have done here was to simply politely express their displeasure with the cartoons, pehaps write a letter to the editor, and prayed for these souls to learn some sensitivity and tact. BTW...same goes for Christians or any other group that gets offended by something similar to this.

I agree.

I can't understand the fuss that these extremists are going on about especially when these are probably the same people responsible for things like this.
post #98 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by keot
I agree.

I can't understand the fuss that these extremists are going on about especially when these are probably the same people responsible for things like this.

Yeah probably....all of them without exception.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #99 of 328
You know, if there were some legitimate angst in the Muslim community, there might be a more than a few parties who would exploit the opportunity. Take a bad situation and amplify it by an order of magnitude or two.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #100 of 328

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #101 of 328
Clarification from the WSJ

$$ Link

Quote:
BRUSSELS -- Four months ago, Denmark's Jyllands-Posten newspaper published 12 caricatures of the prophet Muhammad. At first, the cartoons elicited little interest.

But in December Danish Muslims circulated them in the Islamic world. They added two particularly inflammatory drawings that had never been published by the paper -- one involved a pig's nose and the other an indecent act with a dog. Street protests erupted from Lahore to Gaza. Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait withdrew their ambassadors from Copenhagen, calling for an apology and punishment of the editors. Danish products are being boycotted in the Middle East, where state-controlled media speak darkly of a conspiracy against Islam. Palestinian terrorists have declared Danes and other Europeans as legitimate targets. Journalists at Jyllands-Posten have received death threats. Danish flags, whose design is based on a Christian cross, are being burned. So much for religious respect.

Quote:
Jyllands-Posten decided to publish the cartoons after complaints from an author that he could not find an illustrator who dared to draw images of Muhammad for his book. It was this atmosphere of fear and intimidation that the newspaper wanted to highlight. The Muslim reaction to these pictures only confirmed how relevant the topic is.

Quote:
But what really sealed the Danes' fate -- and possibly Europe's -- was the lack of solidarity from other governments. The European Union likes to call "emergency meetings" for the most trivial topics, from farm subsidies to VAT rates. But when one of their smallest members came under attack for nothing else than being a European country, for defending the values and norms the EU is based on, there was nothing but silence from Europe's capitals. That silence has been heard and understood in the Muslim world.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #102 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by keot
I agree.

I can't understand the fuss that these extremists are going on about especially when these are probably the same people responsible for things like this.

Not to mention, sentencing homosexuals to death, denouncing the holocaust, forcing women to live like dogs or gang raping a girl to return honour to your family - to name but a few.

OH NO - you can't CRITICIZE someone's RELIGION though!!!! That's exercising poor judgement!!!
post #103 of 328
The Muslum world could not have worse PR - this whole situation paints them as barbarians, not up to the standards of the 1st world in terms of free speach and peaceful protests.

segovius - you keep pointing out that the muslum world was once the center of the world for liberal values and scientific achievement. What makes you think that they can get back to that point? I just don't see those values as having much life left in the muslum world.

A society can lose characteristics to the point where they are too hard to re-gain. For example, meditation and introspection used to have significant roles in European christianity - just as they do in current day Buddhism, and those characteristics are completely gone now.

Christianity in the US has also undergone significant changes, so that Evangellicals have a larger percentage each year. What percentage of the muslum world is represented by the violent embassy trashers?
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #104 of 328
Here's a link to the additional cartoons used to stir this mess up.

But at the same time, here is a story of two Jordanian editors, who published a very reasonable Op/Ed that showed the actual pictures, who have been arrested.

And here is an Op/Ed from the WSJ by Irshad Manji $$Interesting.

from the article:
Quote:
At Davos last week, I observed something revealing. In a session about the U.S. religious right, a cartoonist satirized one of America's most influential evangelical ministers, Pat Robertson. In the audience, chuckling with the rest of us, was a prominent British Muslim. But his smile disappeared the moment we were shown a cartoon that made fun of Muslim clerics.
....
Arab elites love such controversies, for they provide convenient opportunities to channel anger away from local injustices. No wonder President Lahoud of Lebanon insisted that his country "cannot accept any insult to any religion." That is rich. Since the late '70s, the Lebanese government has licensed al-Manar TV, among the most viciously anti-Semitic broadcasters on earth. Similarly, the justice minister of the United Arab Emirates has said that the Danish cartoons represent "cultural terrorism, not freedom of expression." This from a country that promotes its capital as the "Las Vegas of the Gulf," yet blocks my Web site -- Muslim-refusenik.com -- for being "inconsistent with the moral values" of the UAE. Presumably, my site should be an online casino.

Muslims have little integrity demanding respect for our faith if we do not show it for others. When have we demonstrated against Saudi Arabia's policy to prevent Christians and Jews from stepping on the soil of Mecca? They may come for business trips, but nothing more. As long as Rome welcomes non-Christians and Jerusalem embraces non-Jews, we Muslims have more to protest than cartoons.
...
None of this is to dismiss the need to take my religion seriously. Hell, Muslims even take seriously the need to be serious: Islam has a teaching against "excessive laughter." I am not joking. But does this mean that we should cry "blasphemy" over less-than-flattering depictions of the prophet Muhammad? God no. For one thing, the Quran itself points out that there will always be nonbelievers, and that it's for Allah, not Muslims, to deal with them. More than that, the Quran says there is "no compulsion in religion." Which suggests that nobody should be compelled to treat Islamic tenets as sacred.

Fine, many Muslims will retort, but we are talking about the prophet Muhammad -- Allah's final and therefore perfect messenger. However, Islamic tradition holds that the prophet was a human being who made mistakes. It is precisely because he was not perfect that we know about the "Satanic Verses," a collection of passages that the prophet reportedly included in the Quran. Only later did he realize that those verses glorified heathen idols rather than God. According to Islamic legend, he retracted the idolatrous passages, blaming them on a trick played by Satan.
...
Clearly, I am as impure a feminist as I am a Muslim. The difference is, offended feminists will not threaten to kill me. The same cannot be said for many of my fellow Muslims. What part of "no compulsion" don't they understand?

Here the free link to Daniel Schwammenthal's op-ed.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #105 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
How about the Muslims stop bitching and mount their own witty offensive on Jesus. All that censorship does is hide issues.

They would have to find someone in Europe who believes in Jesus. Then that person would have pretend to be offended.

That is entirely too much work. They prefer to burn the embassy instead.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #106 of 328
Another linky from Charles Moore in The Telegraph. He's curious on why there were so many Danish flags at the ready (to be burned).
Quote:
Why were those Danish flags to hand? Who built up the stockpile so that they could be quickly dragged out right across the Muslim world and burnt where television cameras would come and look? The more you study this story of "spontaneous" Muslim rage, the odder it seems.

(with apologies to Robespierre)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #107 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
They would have to find someone in Europe who believes in Jesus. Then that person would have pretend to be offended.

You make Europe sound like paradise. If they get their act together and stop bowing to the violent demands of the crappiest people in the Muslum world, then they will be perfect.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #108 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
You make Europe sound like paradise. If they get their act together and stop bowing to the violent demands of the crappiest people in the Muslum world, then they will be perfect.

I don't believe Europe perfect at all. I was just having a little fun with the whole tit for tat reasoning thrown out there.

Take care E#,

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #109 of 328
I don't think the cartoons are particularly amusing or insightful, but failing at comedy is hardly criminal.

Also, I don't endorse the whole "tit-for-tat" idea, because I don't see how it is productive. I do think it is important that people stand up for the right to tear down sacred cows. Under no circumstances should people be obligated to treat ridiculous beliefs with respect or reverance simply because the followers will get angry if you don't.

I know the embassy-burners have no power to actually limit free speech, but I think the governments these acts of violence are directed at should be firm in their support for their unfunny cartoonists and refuse to bend just because some angry religious people get violent.

Dear Muslims,
Your religious beliefs are ridiculous and silly. And that goes for you nice Muslims as well.
all love,
groverat
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #110 of 328
Thread Starter 
Ooooooookay. There is the international situation, which is completely out of hand these days and really isn´t about the drawings but about conflicts internally to each country.

And then there is the national conflict here. DMZ: The drawings that wasn´t posted in the paper was most likely send to muslims here. I have seen the same crude style in neo-nazi magazines here (as always: I do have an alibi) and I think it comes from the same person.

My opinion is that it was a counter-productive initiative to take the conflict international (well you can see the result these days so it goes without saying) and it will NOT make anything better for Muslims here. But when they travelled to the ME the message was not only about the cartoons but about how the conditions for immigrants, esp. those from the ME, has worsen over the last ten years. And in that picture the "freelance" drawings are very symbolic of that. If they claimed they were posted in the paper it would be a lie but its everyones guess if they did.

Back to the national level. The freedom of speech is unquestionable and it should not be limited by religion. But You should consider the feelings of other people. Just as you wouldn´t call your mother-in-law a bitch, and certainly not in front of your girlfriend, even if the law grant you the right to do so, the same constraints should be considered by anyone. Level the consideration between means and effect. This is the wrong fight in my opinion.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
post #111 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Ooooooookay. There is the international situation, which is completely out of hand these days and really isn´t about the drawings but about conflicts internally to each country.

And then there is the national conflict here. DMZ: The drawings that wasn´t posted in the paper was most likely send to muslims here. I have seen the same crude style in neo-nazi magazines here (as always: I do have an alibi) and I think it comes from the same person.

My opinion is that it was a counter-productive initiative to take the conflict international (well you can see the result these days so it goes without saying) and it will NOT make anything better for Muslims here. But when they travelled to the ME the message was not only about the cartoons but about how the conditions for immigrants, esp. those from the ME, has worsen over the last ten years. And in that picture the "freelance" drawings are very symbolic of that. If they claimed they were posted in the paper it would be a lie but its everyones guess if they did.

Back to the national level. The freedom of speech is unquestionable and it should not be limited by religion. But You should consider the feelings of other people. Just as you wouldn´t call your mother-in-law a bitch, and certainly not in front of your girlfriend, even if the law grant you the right to do so, the same constraints should be considered by anyone. Level the consideration between means and effect. This is the wrong fight in my opinion.

That telegraph article was good, in a lot of ways this is starting to look like a professional hit.

What are you Danes going to do when 'the Muslims'® figure out what that shape on your flag means?!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #112 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978 segovius - you keep pointing out that the muslum world was once the center of the world for liberal values and scientific achievement. What makes you think that they can get back to that point? I just don't see those values as having much life left in the muslum world.

Perhaps you are right. But I think they can get back because I have to.

It is in the same way that you or others might look at the world today and see it is FUBAR and hope to 'get back' to a time when it wasn't.

We all want the same thing - those of us who aren't insane lunatics - but we have different ways of framing it.

Just like you (probably and hopefully) I want to live in a world where none of this sh*t happens - where my religion means something only time and you to you and if you have none it is fine and we can all do what we do without having to worry about looking over our shoulder or the next terrorist attack.

In short: a time when we are really all moving on and not firefighting.

So to me this is kind of a dream: I just frame it in an Islamic context because that's a major component of my life. It doesn't matter who frames it in another way as this dream is about tolerance, freedom and co-operation.

You are right in that it will most likely never happen but I choose to believe it (and try to work for it) for the sake of my own sanity in this world which can really get you down.

It's my own WOT really - my own non-violent fight against the extremists - to do my best to hold back the tide. It's not nothing. Close but not quite.

Also the activities within the Islamic tradition of various women activists and other reformers is a cause for great hope. I personally believe that little is heard of these because they ARE women but that is just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by dmz And here is an Op/Ed from the WSJ by Irshad Manji $$Interesting.

Irshad Manji gives us all hope imo. When people say that Islam is intolerant or that extremists exist within it because that is what the religion is I think of her.

She is a truly brave woman and a classic example of why Islam is not an extreme religion - despite the death threats, despite her sexuality and feminist stance, she remains a Muslim.

She should know as well as anyone about extremism - having been on the receiving end all her life - but she still sees deeper into what Islam has to say. She didn't leave the religion or decide that the extremists were the true representatives - she knows Islam is more than that.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for either the Islamists or large numbers of the general populace.

In reference to #E's point above, I also think she will be instrumental in restoring the critical traditions of ijtihad which will solve the problem partially.

Real change will only come though when the Saudi religious teaching and sponsorship of mosques and madrasas is dealt with. This may be harder though as they have the tacit support of their allies the US.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #113 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It is in the same way that you or others might look at the world today and see it is FUBAR and hope to 'get back' to a time when it wasn't.

Actually, for the western world this is the golden age. There is no past era where things were better.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #114 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Actually, for the western world this is the golden age. There is no past era where things were better.

BS.

I grew up in the West in a time when things were a thousand times better so I saw it myself.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #115 of 328
Who really trumped this up, the papers or the Muslim groups? The standard line seems to be that the papers did this solely to piss of Muslims, but my understanding is that these cartoons were published many months ago with no reaction, and only after a great deal of work by some Muslim groups to stir up outrage (including possibly distributing pictures that were not in the original) did this boil over into what it has in the past week or two.
post #116 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
BS.

I grew up in the West in a time when things were a thousand times better so I saw it myself.

The cold war war much more dangerous than any current conflict. Women and minorities continue to make strides towards equality. Income is up in every quintile of society.

I don't know what you could be measuring when you say that.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #117 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Income is up in every quintile of society.

I know exactly what measure you are using when you say that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #118 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I know exactly what measure you are using when you say that.

While cleverly avoiding mentioning your own.

The only way that the western world is getting worse is (at least in the US) religion is becoming stronger.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #119 of 328
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
While cleverly avoiding mentioning your own.

Simply because what I would call 'worse' you would call paradise and what you call 'better' I see as hell on earth.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #120 of 328
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Who really trumped this up, the papers or the Muslim groups? The standard line seems to be that the papers did this solely to piss of Muslims, but my understanding is that these cartoons were published many months ago with no reaction, and only after a great deal of work by some Muslim groups to stir up outrage (including possibly distributing pictures that were not in the original) did this boil over into what it has in the past week or two.

That is partly right. There was immediate reaction from muslim groups here that asked for a retraction or an excuse. From principle they would not do that, their idea was to prove a point about freedom of speech. About a couple of weeks later 12 ambassadors from ME asked to meet the prime minister (see the letter here) to discuss the general anti-muslim tendencies with the center on the cartoons. the prime declined to meet them because the letter contains a plea to take action against the paper (this was the large mistake in all of this. The drawings are very offensive to some muslims and everywhere they were met with "well suck it up". A recognision of their feelings at that point would have stopped it all in my best judgement). Then some of the muslim organisations formed a group that was sent to ME in december.

BTW: There is a sentence in the letter I don´t really get:

...and urge Your Excellency´s government to take all those responsible to task under law of the land...

Are they asking us to take the legal actions that our law permits against the papers? or are they asking for to take action, no matter the law? Its rather crucial in the discussion here because of the reason the prime gave not to see them. If it is the first (actions our laws permits) then our prime lied. He claimed he could not do what they asked him to do in the letter and thats why he wouldn´t meet with them. If they asked to do what our laws permits then it would have been easy for him to ask them to go to the police after the meeting and file a complaint. We do have laws against profanity and it would have gone through our juridical system (and lost but thats another issue).
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Soooo. Anyone heard some news from Denmark lately?