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post #161 of 170
Quote:
Why aren't they doing it? No real idea. All we have is speculation.
Why wait? There's no reason to. All that is is justifying Apple's silence/stillness.

Microsoft has the resources and capital to push a product at a loss for a long time. Until either the market accepts the product or MS gives up. Both of these have happened without causing MS any significant problems.

Apple has much more limited resources and capital in comparison. Apple cannot afford to push a product at a loss until the market accepts it. Apple has to release products that sell and create revenue. Apple has already stared into the dark abyss once and I'm sure they don't want to go back.

I'm sure if Apple felt it had a killer DVR product akin to the iPod and iTunes they would use it. DVR is very different in the sense that you have to deal with uncooperative and ultra-competative cable/satalite companies.

At this point the DVR market has not been proven to be a viable revenue generating market. That may change at some point in the future.

Quote:
All told, 6.5 million copies of XP MCE sold?
Not bad. How much has OSX Tiger sold?

With the benefits of being a giant monopoly comes the burden of being a giant monopoly. There is somewhere over 900 million Windows and a little more than 22 million OS X users.

Because of its sheer size Microsoft has to sell a lot of Windows to mainitain its current profit and even more to exceed last years profits.

Because of its smaller size Apple does not have to sell nearly as many copies of Tiger to make big profits. 6.5 million copies of Tiger sold are great numbers for Apple.

Quote:
The thing is, for Apple to compete with MCE DVR directly, the only thing they have to do is open-up front row to third parties, and offer pre-configured bundles.

You are right Apple is not really doing much to directly support third party DVR developers.

Probably has to do with Apple establishing ties with television studios. Apple does not want to weaken its negotiating ability or risk studio confidence.

I think in time Apple will open a backdoor in Font Row that will allow third party applications to work with it.

At this point Apple just wants to get Front Row working as advertised.

Quote:
Why wouldn't people want MCE?

Here are some bits from a CNET article comparing Front Row to MCE.


It can't be understated how frustrating it can potentially be to get a Media Center PC to communicate with a TV. It's easy for the technical-minded to overlook this simple fact, but anyone who is used to a DVD or video recorder 'just working' will find that Media Center PCs are sometimes not an easy alternative.

The Mini comes pre-installed with Apple's Front Row software. This is an extremely slick interface that lets you browse your iTunes and iPhoto libraries using the Apple remote control. It's a tough call between this interface and Microsoft's -- both are glass-buttoned masterpieces and easy to navigate.

The Mac Mini automatically recognised the LCD TV we're using, and the third-party tuner was similarly straightforward to set up. Compared to the hours we've spent coaxing similar results out of some Microsoft Media Center systems, the Mini is definitely ahead so far.

....compared to the hair-pulling ceremonies we've held getting Window Media Center PCs to display anything at all on a TV, the Mac has delivered a nasty right-hook to Microsoft's fighter.

We'll continue to test the Mini over the coming weeks and keep you updated on our experiences. Check back for Round 2, when we'll be comparing the TV scheduling systems. It's likely that Microsoft will scream ahead in this respect, their PVR software is far superior to anything currently available to Mac users.
post #162 of 170
TenoBell, you've gone with a two-pronged rebuttal. One is that "Apple has limited resources" and "cannot afford to push a product at a loss", the other is that it "Probably has to do with Apple establishing ties with television studios. Apple does not want to weaken its negotiating ability or risk studio confidence."

So, which is it? Or are you saying "both"? Which is the dominant one?

I'll take each in turn.

Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
Microsoft has the resources and capital to push a product at a loss for a long time. Until either the market accepts the product or MS gives up. Both of these have happened without causing MS any significant problems.

Apple has much more limited resources and capital in comparison. Apple cannot afford to push a product at a loss until the market accepts it. Apple has to release products that sell and create revenue.

From where Apple is now, to compete in the DVR space, they do not have to make any hardware, they do not need to write any drivers, and they do not need to develop a UI (they've already developed Front Row). All they have to do is open Front Row to third parties and then sell Macs with Front Row bundled with third-party DVR hardware as an option.

Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
You are right Apple is not really doing much to directly support third party DVR developers.

Probably has to do with Apple establishing ties with television studios. Apple does not want to weaken its negotiating ability or risk studio confidence.

I doubt that very much. From the TV studio's point of view, these are just two seperate markets, and they want to be in both*. For someone to use a DVR, they are watching TV filled with ads, and also probably subscribing to cable: TV studio gets income. For someone to download something from iTunes, they pay for it: TV studio gets income.

If the reason Apple hasn't produced a DVR solution is related to iTunes, it'll be because they don't want to cannibalise the iTunes sales, not due to negotiating ability.

I hope that the actual reason we haven't seen anything is because Apple are waiting for all the pieces to come together.

*in fact, if anything, they are wary of the download model because they aren't sure about what it's going to do to advertising revenue. I.e., will downloads pick up fast enough to offset reductions in advertising revenue?
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post #163 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H

All they have to do is open Front Row to third parties and then sell Macs with Front Row bundled with third-party DVR hardware as an option.

I hope that the actual reason we haven't seen anything is because Apple are waiting for all the pieces to come together.


Is it possible Apple doesn't want to play with 3rd party vendors? I really wonder if Apple is trying to become a vertically intergrated company. At least with what they believe to be critical core markets or functions.

I agree with you on the second part. They need to get it in gear. They have let MS get a large lead in this area.
post #164 of 170
Quote:
So, which is it? Or are you saying "both"? Which is the dominant one?

Apple does not seem to have interest in developing a DVR.
I'm only looking at the evidence at hand and mostly speculating.
It may be a bit of all.

Quote:
From where Apple is now, to compete in the DVR space, they do not have to make any hardware, they do not need to write any drivers, and they do not need to develop a UI (they've already developed Front Row)

I don't belive Apple would half ass a DVR. If they are going to do it they would go all the way.

Apple would develop its own software and hardware DVR which would allow you to plug an HDMI cable into your television and would play with little bother.

I would imagine in the current consumer televison atomosphere Apple is not able to create such a device. Also looking at current DVR sales it is unlikely Apple would make much profit from such a device.

In the Unites States the current broadcast structure is no supporter of DVR. The ability to skip commercials is being buit (or hacked) into DVR software. Television studios are not supportive of consumers being able to record shows, load them on the internet, or create DVD's of their entire television season.

This is why Apple has to protect its credbility and confidence with television studios and creators.
post #165 of 170
Quote:
Microsoft has the resources and capital to push a product at a loss for a long time.

What on earth would that have to do with MCE?

Are you saying that MCE is losing Microsoft money?

Quote:
Apple cannot afford to push a product at a loss until the market accepts it.

I notice that you keep saying "a product". I guess that's to avoid what we're talking about, which is software.
Apple had an x86 version of OSX under wraps for years. Their entire operating system. How much do you think that really cost them?

This isn't the XBox we're talking about. Microsoft didn't manufacture any HTPCs. How on earth would they be losing money on MCE?

This "Apple is too small to make DVR software" argument is absolutely insane.

And thanks for the "lol Micro$ux" article without any kind of detailed information. Those are always useful.
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post #166 of 170
Quote:
Are you saying that MCE is losing Microsoft money?

When there was a choice to buy Windows without MCE, the version of Windows that included MCE needed to sell in high volume to add to MS profits and boost its stock price. Selling 6.5 million copies has not done much to help.

But this will no longer apply as MCE is now value added software to the entire Windows operating system.

Quote:
I notice that you keep saying "a product". I guess that's to avoid what we're talking about, which is software.

These people are not giving us software for charity or the betterment of mankind. They are in business to make money. Software is their product.

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Apple had an x86 version of OSX under wraps for years. Their entire operating system. How much do you think that really cost them?

Of course I don't know. Its not like the x86 OS X version was an entirely separate product it was being created along side the PPC OS X which is generating revenue. So obviously it wasn't cost prohibitive.

Quote:
This "Apple is too small to make DVR software" argument is absolutely insane.

This is not what I said.
I said Apple is too small to research, develop, market, and ship a product that does not return profit.

Quote:
And thanks for the "lol Micro$ux" article without any kind of detailed information. Those are always useful.

That wasn't an entirely anti-MS aricle. I've seen those same complaints about MCE in other articles. Its easy to complain about MCE because MCE trys to do so many things that it cannot always do effectively in every situation.

I've seen some minor complaints about Front Row. Mostly dealing with minor stability bugs that Apple will work out. But there isn't too much to complain about with Front Row because what it does - it does pretty well. Front Row is not trying to do what it could not do very well.
post #167 of 170
You are not answering my question, so I will ask it again.

Are you asserting that Microsoft was losing money on MCE?

Quote:
This is not what I said.
I said Apple is too small to research, develop, market, and ship a product that does not return profit.

That is simply untrue. Apple is quite large and has a ton of cash.

If they can survive Flower Power iMac I think they can develop the same kind of software as such massive corporate behemoths such as ElGato.

Quote:
That wasn't an entirely anti-MS aricle.

I don't know the motivations of the authors, but the article is crap. It includes absolutely no specifics as to what setups were used and what problems were.

It is a stupid article.
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post #168 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent
I've always found the Windows look to clunky and ugly

My exact words after one week of using my new powerbook back in 2004 and then going back to XP for a day! 8)

Quote:
Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent
For me, the beauty of OSX is that I don't have to apply a patch or buy software to make the interface appealing to the eye.

Amen!
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post #169 of 170
Oh... *wheeze* Jeeze *puff*...

Sorry I'm late... Okay, you two, shake hands and come out...

{what? They've already star... but... PAGE FIVE? ARE YOU KIDDING? grove... and kick? Aw Jeeze)

I always miss the good stuff.

Anywho - if my PC doesn't get sold I'll be very interested to see how Vista interacts with my Xbox 360. That being said, the majority of my content right now is ripped from my DVD collection or my CDs(in the case of music).

To be honest, DVR doesn't interest me at all. I've got an OEM version of MCE (the advantages of working for an electronics company!) on my PC and I just can't be bothered with it. I'm more likely to wait the season out and buy the DVD set - no commercials, easy storage and so on. DVRs just seem like a sketchy step between VHS and VOD. If I'm going to have it, I'd like to have a hard copy in my hand. Hell, with DVD I can consume 5 episodes of, say, Deadwood in a sitting, as opposed to one. The HD Dual Tuner DVR that was connected to my Toshiba sat there for months - I just couldn't be bothered to use it.
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post #170 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
If they can survive Flower Power iMac I think they can develop the same kind of software as such massive corporate behemoths such as ElGato.

Sure, they could. But it wouldn't be very smart for a company that's been establishing itself as a fierce (and sometimes quixotic) defender of copyright and IP lawscertainly part of a larger strategy to assuage any fears by movie, TV and music industry folksto turn around and start providing software for digitally capturing the same content that they're selling.

Because I've been a user of their stuff since they first relased the Eye TV, I would *love* to see Apple simply buy el Gato. But I just don't see such a purchase being in Apple's best interests at the moment.
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