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post #41 of 170
3/2/06 at 3:04am
Quote:
Originally posted by xmoger
Are you implying Windows is based on DOS? Win2k is 6 years old. NT4 is 10 years old. OSX is just recently becoming a full-featured OS.

Longhorn isn't entirely a GUI upgrade. Extremetech wrote a decent article a while back. It will include a faster, rewritten network and audio stack. Several new APIs, prioritized disk IO, shadow volumes, cablecard support, userspace drivers, upgrades on it's bundled apps, and some other stuff.

Yes, he is correctly implying that Windows is based on dos, Windows XP(32bit) still carries some code from the good old 16bit dos days, so it really was time to do some rewriting, Windows XP 64 on the other hand is based mostly on new code, but the gui is still from 32 bit windows with some enhancements. Now hopefully they have rewritten that gui part in Vista, so they actually can say that they did a major rewrite. And not a day too late.
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post #42 of 170
3/2/06 at 3:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by Project2501
Windows XP(32bit) still carries some code from the good old 16bit dos days

Well, if you're talking about the console that is provided for compatibility, then yes. Otherwise, no, you are talking rubbish.

XP was based on 2000 which was based on NT. NT was never, ever, ever based on DOS. It runs on the NT kernel.
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post #43 of 170
3/2/06 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
Well, if you're talking about the console that is provided for compatibility, then yes. Otherwise, no, you are talking rubbish.

XP was based on 2000 which was based on NT. NT was never, ever, ever based on DOS. It runs on the NT kernel.

Ok, the 16 bit code might not be derived from dos, but it's still there, in many plases, most visible in compatibility layer and in support for old netware networks - ipx/spx networks. And yes windows NT codebase doesn't have that much legasy code anymore but Windows Vista could have gone to pure 64bit.
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post #44 of 170
3/2/06 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Project2501
Ok, the 16 bit code might not be derived from dos, but it's still there, in many plases, most visible in compatibility layer and in support for old netware networks - ipx/spx networks. And yes windows NT codebase doesn't have that much legasy code anymore but Windows Vista could have gone to pure 64bit.

NT based MS System are built based around Posix 1.b standard. The same standard as, pretty much all, flavors of UNIX are built on.
Having 16 bit code, in places where it can be used, is advantages to 32 bit code or 64 bit code since it is more memory efficient.

There is no need to go to 64 bit OS in consumer and prosumer space today. In fact there are very few pros that can use 64 bit addressing. I run quantum mechanical simulations of heavy atoms that can easily use 12 GB of memory space. In these cases 64 bit Opetrons with 16 GB of RAM blow away 32 bit Xeons. But this is a very small market even in professional space.

In principle, NT based systems can use some refreshment since there is a lot of legacy code dating back from NT 3.0.
We will see how Vista goes, although I don't really see what can really be improved that much as far as core operating system goes. All I see so far, are mostly bells and whistles added on.
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post #45 of 170
3/2/06 at 9:11pm
Blah blah apple blah blah apology blah blah... Blam!

That'll be the sound of the thousand bricks that will fall onto our collective heads when Windows Vista is released with the trillion $$$ marketing campaign that's sure to accompany it. It's still time to spot drinking the kool-aid. Stop playing Apple apologists, you're only making Apple complacent. And we all know what happened the last time around... Windows 95 anybody? Far from perfect, but good enough to obliterate the Mac's market share from 10+% down to a puny 2%.
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post #46 of 170
3/3/06 at 1:18am
Quote:
Originally posted by DeaPeaJay
I think that's about right. Vista is just new features thrown onto a horrible mess of a system. Like icing on a cow pie. It may look nicer, but it's still... a cow pie.

I had heard that Vista could be a simple downloadable upgrade for XP.

Microsoft is unwilling to do a jump like OS9 to OSX, even though that is exactly what they need to do, because they would lose too many customers. They'll stick with the same buggy software until their doom.

Although I definately won't switch back for it, there is way more to vista than a facelift and eye-candy type stuff. Apparently the entire underpinnings basic were revised and/or rewritten :
extremetech review: "why Windows Vista Won't Suck".
It remains to be seen if this well lead to any real-world improvements to security and system stability though.

Edit: got this from OS News by the way, great site for all news about OS's (duh.)
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post #47 of 170
3/3/06 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally posted by cygsid
This has got to be The Official Fanboy Thread, no question about it.

Hold the phone!! What about fangirls? I know I'm the minority here, but I'm as avid as you chums are.

Oh, and the advertising campaign? I could give a rat's patoot. Windows users are drones..they refuse to change because they're creatures of habit. It's sad really; I know a Windows user who talks of the recent attempt by some to get Mac OS X on their PC's. Apparently, some of them want OS X, but they're too cheap to just get a Mac. It's like, "Uh, guys, the OS works better when it's on it's native hardware.." Honestly, I'll side with smclintock on this.
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post #48 of 170
3/3/06 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
Honestly, I'll side with smclintock on this.

Why thank you

One of my fellow computing friends recently put OS X onto their PC through a simulation program and loved it, but they refuse to convert to Mac OS X by buying Apple hardware because they think they won't be able to get their favourite software or PC Games to run on it, thats quite annoying because they don't even get their facts right before judging / slagging the operating system.

I think a lot of PC users are like that, they dont release they can work in a Windows friendly environment without any problems or incompatibilites.
I'm actually suprised myself how easy it is to do all my uni work on my mac, save it to my USB stick and open it up again on the Windows computers at my university.

If Apple are looking to up their market share and switch more PC users to OS X, they should start an advertising campaign showing just this, Windows & the Mac working together, showing the different scenarios that they can be used in (business, design etc etc). PC users should be aware that there is an alternative and that it's easily available to them
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post #49 of 170
3/3/06 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
Hold the phone!! What about fangirls? I know I'm the minority here, but I'm as avid as you chums are.

Oh, and the advertising campaign? I could give a rat's patoot. Windows users are drones..they refuse to change because they're creatures of habit. It's sad really; I know a Windows user who talks of the recent attempt by some to get Mac OS X on their PC's. Apparently, some of them want OS X, but they're too cheap to just get a Mac. It's like, "Uh, guys, the OS works better when it's on it's native hardware.." Honestly, I'll side with smclintock on this.

I happen to know a few "Windows drones", and they're all great people who can't be correlated to their operating system whatsoever. Face it- Mac hardware is expensive, Windows is definitely usable, and I'm getting tired of people bash Windows simply because they] are drones.
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post #50 of 170
3/3/06 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Yeah, there's the new metadata filesystem, there's hard drive encryption...

Vista contains hard drive encryption? That should be fun.

Apple hasn't even convinced me it's safe to run FileVault yet.

Can you imagine what MS'support lines are going to be like when millions of Windows users looking for "more security" enable Redmond's new encryption scheme?

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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #51 of 170
3/4/06 at 10:29pm
I currently use FileVault and have had no issues...

Placebo darling, is that empathy I hear? Look, I'm not demonizing or trashing Windows users, I used to be one, sweetie. And in order to label a group drones, they'd have to be a much more vast amount of people. PC users possess a bigger population, hence my statement. And by the way, for future reference, it's in a Mac user's nature to act and speak in such a tone...we're the minority. I'm not mad at the users, I'm mad at the corporation that subjects the users to such technological plagiarism. Also, what I've also found that the reason Macs have a bigger price tag is because: 1. They're built to last a long time, and 2. Often, many of the things you'd have to buy separately with a PC is already included or built in to a Mac.


Oh yeah, if you're going to pose a counterargument, please do so in a more composed, grammatically correct manner.
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post #52 of 170
3/5/06 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
I thought I remembered hearing something about there needing to be some kind of relatively lightweight emulation to run XP programs, could be wrong.

WinFS is also new. If that indeed is being shipped with Vista.

No. AFAIK (pretty sure) Vista uses Win32 APIs natively (and presumably Win64).
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post #53 of 170
3/5/06 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
IWinFS is also new. If that indeed is being shipped with Vista.

It's not.http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20041211-4454.html
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post #54 of 170
3/5/06 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally posted by Project2501
Yes, he is correctly implying that Windows is based on dos, Windows XP(32bit) still carries some code from the good old 16bit dos days, so it really was time to do some rewriting, Windows XP 64 on the other hand is based mostly on new code, but the gui is still from 32 bit windows with some enhancements. Now hopefully they have rewritten that gui part in Vista, so they actually can say that they did a major rewrite. And not a day too late.

Windows XP carries code from DOS days? Ha Ha Ha Ha. Not that I know of.
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post #55 of 170
3/5/06 at 11:23am
  • rok
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
I currently use FileVault and have had no issues...

Placebo darling, is that empathy I hear? Look, I'm not demonizing or trashing Windows users, I used to be one, sweetie. And in order to label a group drones, they'd have to be a much more vast amount of people. PC users possess a bigger population, hence my statement. And by the way, for future reference, it's in a Mac user's nature to act and speak in such a tone...we're the minority. I'm not mad at the users, I'm mad at the corporation that subjects the users to such technological plagiarism. Also, what I've also found that the reason Macs have a bigger price tag is because: 1. They're built to last a long time, and 2. Often, many of the things you'd have to buy separately with a PC is already included or built in to a Mac.


Oh yeah, if you're going to pose a counterargument, please do so in a more composed, grammatically correct manner.

eh, don't mind placebo. he's having some issues right now, having decided to switch to windows, and is desperately trying to rationalize the decision, and gets defensive whenever anyone brings up the point that it may have been, in fact, a bad decision. he'll be on dr. phil inside the month.
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #56 of 170
3/5/06 at 2:06pm
Does anyone know what is NOT going to be included in Vista that MS said was originally supposed to ship with Longhorn? I know WinFS isn't, but what about Indigo?
Mac OS X Leopard vs. Windows Vista
http://www.macvswindows.com
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Mac OS X Leopard vs. Windows Vista
http://www.macvswindows.com
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post #57 of 170
3/5/06 at 2:42pm
Thanks, rok. I was wondering what the moodiness in his voice was all about. \
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post #58 of 170
3/5/06 at 3:26pm
dutch pear:

Thanks for that article on Vista. It answered a ton of questions I had.

There's really a lot to look forward to as a Windows user.
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post #59 of 170
3/5/06 at 5:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
There's really a lot to look forward to as a Windows user.

...like a new Mac.
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post #60 of 170
3/5/06 at 6:19pm
Here is a link to a story about vista by Jason Cross of Extreme Tech published on Foxnews. "blah blah blah Just like apple"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186454,00.html
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post #61 of 170
3/5/06 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
eh, don't mind placebo. he's having some issues right now, having decided to switch to windows, and is desperately trying to rationalize the decision, and gets defensive whenever anyone brings up the point that it may have been, in fact, a bad decision. he'll be on dr. phil inside the month.

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post #62 of 170
3/5/06 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
I currently use FileVault and have had no issues...

Placebo darling, is that empathy I hear? Look, I'm not demonizing or trashing Windows users, I used to be one, sweetie. And in order to label a group drones, they'd have to be a much more vast amount of people. PC users possess a bigger population, hence my statement. And by the way, for future reference, it's in a Mac user's nature to act and speak in such a tone...we're the minority. I'm not mad at the users, I'm mad at the corporation that subjects the users to such technological plagiarism. Also, what I've also found that the reason Macs have a bigger price tag is because: 1. They're built to last a long time, and 2. Often, many of the things you'd have to buy separately with a PC is already included or built in to a Mac.


Oh yeah, if you're going to pose a counterargument, please do so in a more composed, grammatically correct manner.

First, an extra bracket doesn't constitute a grammatical error, honey.

Second, how about we stop trying to be condescending and look at the facts, sweetcakes. I can buy a $1500 computer with off-the-shelf parts that absolutely throttles a Powermac a grand more. Add Windows for a hundred something, set aside three hundred for miscelaneous apps, and I'm still getting better performance at a lower price from the Mac. And I know it's going to last a long time because I was actually able to choose, from thousands of intercompatible parts, what I wanted in my computer.
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post #63 of 170
3/5/06 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
eh, don't mind placebo. he's having some issues right now, having decided to switch to windows, and is desperately trying to rationalize the decision, and gets defensive whenever anyone brings up the point that it may have been, in fact, a bad decision. he'll be on dr. phil inside the month.

I'll be laughing all the way to the bank, buddy.
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post #64 of 170
3/5/06 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
First, an extra bracket doesn't constitute a grammatical error, honey.

Second, how about we stop trying to be condescending and look at the facts, sweetcakes. [/i].

Wow, I think you need to take your own advice.
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post #65 of 170
3/6/06 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally posted by Flounder
Wow, I think you need to take your own advice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
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post #66 of 170
3/6/06 at 7:40am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

The ironic thing here is that if you are saying that your "sweetcakes" post was ironic, then you are wrong (edit: IMHO). It was sarcastic.

If you are aware that the post was sarcastic, and you are saying that it's ironic that Flounder didn't notice, then fair enough.

That is all.
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post #67 of 170
3/6/06 at 7:48am
Something that I'm interested in is the price structure of vista. Apparently there will be six versions with six differnt prices. It'll be interesting to see how much the vista version that is eqivalent to tiger/leaopard finally costs. I'm guessing that version will be vista home ultimate. Anyone care to guess what that will cost?
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post #68 of 170
3/6/06 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
Something that I'm interested in is the price structure of vista. Apparently there will be six versions with six differnt prices. It'll be interesting to see how much the vista version that is eqivalent to tiger/leaopard finally costs. I'm guessing that version will be vista home ultimate. Anyone care to guess what that will cost?

Yes, I'm interested in this too. I don't know when Microsoft are planning on elaborating on pricing; all we have to go on at the moment is XP pricing.

This would suggest the nearest Vista equivalent to OS X Leopard will be between 50 and 100% more expensive at retail (going by UK prices).
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post #69 of 170
3/6/06 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
Yes, I'm interested in this too. I don't know when Microsoft are planning on elaborating on pricing; all we have to go on at the moment is XP pricing.

This would suggest the nearest Vista equivalent to OS X Leopard will be between 50 and 100% more expensive at retail (going by UK prices).

Apparently vista (ultimate) will have some features like iLife.

I'm gonna throw this number out. Bear in mind, I found this in my ass. $250 USD for ultimate. 20% more than tiger and iLife combined.
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post #70 of 170
3/6/06 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
The ironic thing here is that if you are saying that your "sweetcakes" post was ironic, then you are wrong (edit: IMHO). It was sarcastic.

If you are aware that the post was sarcastic, and you are saying that it's ironic that Flounder didn't notice, then fair enough.

That is all.

No, I noticed the sarcasm. I just still think he needs to take his own advice.

I'm sure Placebo wouldn't confuse irony and sarcasm. He's been reading at a college level since third grade!
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post #71 of 170
3/6/06 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
I'll be laughing all the way to the bank, buddy.

WTF?

Are you STILL here
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post #72 of 170
3/6/06 at 10:21am
I don't think you have to go all the way up to Ultimate to get feature-competitive with Tiger.
Vista Home Premium will outstrip Tiger feature-wise simply because it includes Windows Media Center, which Apple has no duplicate for.

And there are only 3 versions for the home user.
Vista Home Basic
Vista Home Premium
Vista Ultimate

I'd bet that all you'd ever see on store shelves are Home Premium and Ultimate. Currently XP has Home and Pro versions, so it won't really be any different.

I'd also bet that Basic will only show up installed on OEM systems.
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post #73 of 170
3/6/06 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Windows Media Center, which Apple has no duplicate for.

Er... Front Row?

I know that Front Row is closed, whereas Media Center has a plugin architecture and is therefore much more flexible, but whether we like it or not, Front Row is Apple's answer to Media Center.
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post #74 of 170
3/6/06 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
I don't think you have to go all the way up to Ultimate to get feature-competitive with Tiger.
Vista Home Premium will outstrip Tiger feature-wise simply because it includes Windows Media Center, which Apple has no duplicate for.

And there are only 3 versions for the home user.
Vista Home Basic
Vista Home Premium
Vista Ultimate

I'd bet that all you'd ever see on store shelves are Home Premium and Ultimate. Currently XP has Home and Pro versions, so it won't really be any different.

I'd also bet that Basic will only show up installed on OEM systems.

I went back and checked an article on vista over at ars and it looks like premium is the Tiger eqivalent . Still anxious to see the pricing. MS knows how to make a buck. I wonder if they go ahead and stick it to the consumer.
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post #75 of 170
3/6/06 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally posted by Flounder
No, I noticed the sarcasm. I just still think he needs to take his own advice.

I'm sure Placebo wouldn't confuse irony and sarcasm. He's been reading at a college level since third grade!

It's ironic that I'm using condescending terms to reprimand someone for being condescending. It could also be termed to be sarcastically hypocritical, but it definitely falls under the category of being ironic.

Just to clear some things up: I'm going to try to run Mac OS X on the PC to the best of my ability, but failing that, use Linux/Windows.
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post #76 of 170
3/6/06 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
It's ironic that I'm using condescending terms to reprimand someone for being condescending. It could also be termed to be sarcastically hypocritical, but it definitely falls under the category of being ironic.

Not that I want to get into an argument about semantics, but this would be a matter of opinion rather than fact. Your post was unquestionably sarcastic. Quoting from the Wikipedia article, emphasis added mine:

"Some psycholinguistic theorists suggest that sarcasm ... should ... be considered [a kind of] verbal irony."

Well, I reject that suggestion. It's just my opinion, but I do not think that sarcasm should be thought of as a sort of irony.
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post #77 of 170
3/6/06 at 11:46am
Well, in any case, it was used in a manner intentionally ironic/sarcastic/hypocritical.
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post #78 of 170
3/6/06 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Just to clear some things up: I'm going to try to run Mac OS X on the PC to the best of my ability, but failing that, use Linux/Windows.

Why don't you use multiple platforms? Most of us here have to use windows for something, ie games or apps not written for mac. Go get a windows machine and use it for games and keep your mac for internet and general stuff that's easier in the mac.
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post #79 of 170
3/6/06 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
Er... Front Row?

I know that Front Row is closed, whereas Media Center has a plugin architecture and is therefore much more flexible, but whether we like it or not, Front Row is Apple's answer to Media Center.

Argument in SAT question form.
Front Row::Media Center as housecat::lion

It's not even Front Row that means anything, it's the little remote that matters. I honestly do not understand why Front Row is considered any kind of breakthrough. It's a pretty nice little application with extremely limited uses.

Windows Media Center does everything Front Row does and a ton more. The main feature, of course, being DVR/TiVO functionality.

So to meet the level of Vista Premium you have to buy Tiger and at least two other software packages (iLife and something like El Gato's EyeTV). And not even that can get it because only Vista's Media Center will have CableCard support which will allow recording of HDTV off cable.

It should be disturbing that when it comes to software Apple is ahead of the game on tiny things like little widgets (Konfabulator Apple Style) and Automator (that no one uses) but when it comes to things millions of people would find useful in their computers they often find themselves behind the curve (CD Burning, DVR); iMovie being the most notable exception.

Front Row is insanely frustrating. I can't believe they just kludge this thing together and the most obvious funcionality for it languishes.
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post #80 of 170
3/6/06 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Argument in SAT question form.
Front Row::Media Center as housecat::lion

It's not even Front Row that means anything, it's the little remote that matters. I honestly do not understand why Front Row is considered any kind of breakthrough. It's a pretty nice little application with extremely limited uses.

Windows Media Center does everything Front Row does and a ton more. The main feature, of course, being DVR/TiVO functionality.

So to meet the level of Vista Premium you have to buy Tiger and at least two other software packages (iLife and something like El Gato's EyeTV). And not even that can get it because only Vista's Media Center will have CableCard support which will allow recording of HDTV off cable.

It should be disturbing that when it comes to software Apple is ahead of the game on tiny things like little widgets (Konfabulator Apple Style) and Automator (that no one uses) but when it comes to things millions of people would find useful in their computers they often find themselves behind the curve (CD Burning, DVR); iMovie being the most notable exception.

Front Row is insanely frustrating. I can't believe they just kludge this thing together and the most obvious funcionality for it languishes.

Well said. The only problem is Steve bloody Jobs and his attitude towards TV. Someone just needs to lock him in a cupboard and only let him out once DVR functionality is in Front Row and it's too late for him to do anything about it.
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