or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Vista Experience: ha ha ha ha ha
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Vista Experience: ha ha ha ha ha - Page 3

post #81 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
Apparently vista (ultimate) will have some features like iLife.

I'm gonna throw this number out. Bear in mind, I found this in my ass. $250 USD for ultimate. 20% more than tiger and iLife combined.

Well, maybe for upgrade pricing $250USD would work. Right now a non-upgrade of XP Pro retails at $299.99. Ultimate is supposed to be even more expensive.
post #82 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
Well, maybe for upgrade pricing $250USD would work. Right now a non-upgrade of XP Pro retails at $299.99. Ultimate is supposed to be even more expensive.

You are probably right. MS hoses users on system software. Hell, I know a lot of people still using Win2000. I could see vista getting a cool reception if it is priced as high as you're suggesting($300). OS X and iLife are a tremendous value.
post #83 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
Why don't you use multiple platforms? Most of us here have to use windows for something, ie games or apps not written for mac. Go get a windows machine and use it for games and keep your mac for internet and general stuff that's easier in the mac.

I've considered this before. It boils down to:

1. I'd like to see performance upgrades be reflected on both of my machines, which, of course, is impossible, so I'd like to do everything on one machine.

2. I'm a sophomore in high school and would like to regain as much capital out of the old computer as I can, since I don't make $70,000 a year.

3. I don't want to buy a console.
post #84 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by ryaxnb
Windows XP carries code from DOS days? Ha Ha Ha Ha. Not that I know of.

OK so from Win16 days maybe. But ONLY as a Win16 subsystem. Not used AT ALL unless you call it.
The other Windows product line include Windows NT, 2000 and XP, and the server products. This Windows family is better than the 9x/ME line; at least these versions use new (i.e. post-DOS) 32-bit code. Memory protection, resource management and security are a bit more serious than in Windows 9x/ME, and they even have some support for access restrictions and a secure filesystem. That doesn't mean that this Windows family is as reliable and secure as Redmond's marketeers claim, but compared to Windows 9x/ME its additional features at least have the advantage of being there at all. But even this Windows line contains a certain amount of 16-bit legacy code, and the entire 16-bit subsystem is a direct legacy from Microsoft's OS/2 days with IBM. In short, all 16-bit applications share one 16-bit subsystem (just as with OS/2). There's no internal memory protection, so one 16-bit application may crash all the others and the entire 16-bit subsystem, as well. This may create persistent locks from the crashed 16-bit code on 32-bit resources, and eventually bring Windows to a halt. Fortunately this isn't much of a problem anymore now that 16-bit applications have all but died out.

http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/micr...IhateMS_2.html
And:That guy isn't all correct either, since you can tell xp to run each win 3.1 program in it's own virtual machine. It's an option in the shortcut properties. That has it's drawbacks too, since the progrms think they are unning on a computer by themslveses, so they can't "talk" to each other
Trainiable is to cat as ability to live without food is to human.
Reply
Trainiable is to cat as ability to live without food is to human.
Reply
post #85 of 170
I think Jobs is pushing for everything to go through iTunes. He's delusional.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #86 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
I think Jobs is pushing for everything to go through iTunes. He's delusional.

...?
post #87 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
...?

I think Groverat was talking about Front Row and DVR capability. There is some talk that maybe Jobs is resisting on DVR functionality because he wants everyone to buy the content through iTunes instead of recording it off cable. If that is what's going on, then I have to side with Groverat and say that Jobs is off his rocker.
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
post #88 of 170
It's the only logical explanation for Apple being so woefully behind the curve on this. I think Microsoft was behind the curve when they jumped on this train 3 years ago.

Now Microsoft is going to have CableCard support, which means that you'll be able to buy a Vista machine and record HD shows onto your computer. I think this is going to be a pretty big deal and Apple is absolutely nowhere to be seen.

Beyond that, Apple is only selling video content at pretty low quality, especially for those of us on newer generation display technology.

So is Jobs expecting people to ditch their massive TVs for tiny little iPods?

You don't just give up on a big market that wouldn't be terribly difficult to enter, it makes no sense. But you've got to think that Jobs sold his soul to big media getting iTunes music store and the TV shows rolling. They may have his balls in a vice here. Either way he's screwing up big.

Hopefully Apple drops 10.5 with CableCard support and a beefed-up Front Row, but even if they do it will be obvious that they are just (yet again) following.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #89 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Hopefully Apple drops 10.5 with CableCard support and a beefed-up Front Row, but even if they do it will be obvious that they are just (yet again) following.

it used to be a joke that Apple served as Microsoft's R&D department, but sometimes I'm not so sure. Sometimes, I think Apple lets a market evolve a bit, then looks at all the things everyone hates about that market, what they like, and then boils that down into a product (see also: iPod).

One could make the point that, while Microsoft and Vista might be the pioneers into this area, Apple may be letting them "take the arrows," confident that the 800 lb. gorilla will stomp a wide but very imprecise path until it's finally brought down by it's own weight and fatigue.. giving Apple just the right spot to come running up from the rear and leapfrog them.

or maybe we'll get the flower power mac mini. i'm not sayin' their PERFECT.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #90 of 170
They're.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #91 of 170
Windows may be expensive, but you only have to pay once for the life of the OS, and Windows XP is going on 4 years. They don't charge for service packs. Apple on the other hand has charged full price for every Mac OS X update. And frankly I think it could be argued that if the OS needed such extensive yearly updates that it warrants charging for them then perhaps the early releases were not quite ready for public consumption.
post #92 of 170
You can argue that anything prior to Panther, and within Panther, only starting from the 10.3.5+ series, was a sort of paid-for public preview.

Pretty smart though: you get people to pay you for beta previewing your OS.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #93 of 170
Yeah...WHEN is it EVER gonna come out?! Hasn't the release date been pushed back even farther? AND why are there SOOOOO many options and versions of it?! No normal consumer is going to know what to do! They'll probably just buy the "Ultimate" (yeah right) version because the guy in CompUSA told them to, or because it contains the word ultimate in it (thereby making it sound the best). Geez...
post #94 of 170
BTW, what does he mean, "but [Apple's] OS X has been doing that for years now, and it's still Windows underneath, right?" Windows underneath?! No, it's not. He must not know much about Apple and the Mac (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186454,00.html).
post #95 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
Well said. The only problem is Steve bloody Jobs and his attitude towards TV. Someone just needs to lock him in a cupboard and only let him out once DVR functionality is in Front Row and it's too late for him to do anything about it.

It's my attitude towards TV too, I don't really have any use for it. I'm perfectly content with Front Row.

Thanks for backing me up, Flounder and Mr. H. I just find Placebo's attitude sad. If you're going to use Mac OS on a PC, or attempt to, then can't we all just get along..even if you are a tenth grader arguing with a college sophomore like me? ?\
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
post #96 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
It's my attitude towards TV too, I don't really have any use for it. I'm perfectly content with Front Row.

I understand Jobs' attitude towards TV, it's his prerogative to think anything of it that he likes. The problem is that he needs to realise that his feelings about TV are very different from the market's.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
Thanks for backing me up, Flounder and Mr. H. I just find Placebo's attitude sad. If you're going to use Mac OS on a PC, or attempt to, then can't we all just get along..even if you are a tenth grader arguing with a college sophomore like me? ?\

Just for the record, I thought that Placebo was being rude, and that isn't the best way to make your point. I use both Windows and Mac OS (Mac OS a lot more, though) at home, and I don't agree completely with what you were saying.
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
post #97 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by trtam
BTW, what does he mean, "but [Apple's] OS X has been doing that for years now, and it's still Windows underneath, right?" Windows underneath?! No, it's not. He must not know much about Apple and the Mac (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186454,00.html).

The pronoun "it" is referring to Vista here. Yeah, could have been written more clearly, but you need to read a bit more carefully.
post #98 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by FotNS
Windows may be expensive, but you only have to pay once for the life of the OS, and Windows XP is going on 4 years. They don't charge for service packs. Apple on the other hand has charged full price for every Mac OS X update.

WTF? How much did you pay for updating 10.4 to 10.4.5? If you mean Apple charges for updating 10.3 to 10.4, have you noticed that updating Win2K to WinXP is not free? Stop this nonsense, please.
Quote:
And frankly I think it could be argued that if the OS needed such extensive yearly updates that it warrants charging for them then perhaps the early releases were not quite ready for public consumption.

It seems you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Windows 3, regardless of its version number, was an alpha version of a window manager slapped together by a bunch of drunk schoolboys who had never even seen a working window-based UI. So what? Mac OS X was a definitely pre-release version, too, but neither of them was free.

Back to the topic.
The mind-blowing pecularity of a ripp-off is that the actual origin of an idea/plot/tune/etc. matters only to lawers and historians. Apart from a dozen of crazy geeks, myself included, people who buy mice and keyboards don't give a damn about who invented them. Ditto GUI in general. Ditto GUI eye candy. Ditto ethernet, damn it. What bugs me much more is so-called pop music, for which people pay insane money without even noticing it's all the same tune in different arrangements. Yet people insist on choosing one clone artist over another. Why? Because the first is prettier and sexier, and because a buddy/room mate likes he/she/it.

Let people choose whatever crap they want. Believe me, I'm typing this on a Win2K box in a room filled with Windows fanboys who blatantly state that Windows is a standard open OS, whereas Mac OS and Linux are not. And I know that I will never again recommend Mac OS to anybody. Get what you like. Get what you dig. Get what you deserve.
Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand what they do not manage, and those who manage what they do not understand. Putts Law
Reply
Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand what they do not manage, and those who manage what they do not understand. Putts Law
Reply
post #99 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
I understand Jobs' attitude towards TV, it's his prerogative to think anything of it that he likes. The problem is that he needs to realise that his feelings about TV are very different from the market's.

Ohhkaay...

Think what you wish about Front Row, I won't badger you about it; it's your opinion. I also feel though, that if Microsoft wants to work with TV recording and gaming, that's their prerogative, just as Apple works with iTunes. I always thought that it was a good thing that these two companies worked on different markets; it'd be too malicious and unbeneficial were they to produce and capitalize on the exact same markets...but that's just me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
Just for the record, I thought that Placebo was being rude, and that isn't the best way to make your point. I use both Windows and Mac OS (Mac OS a lot more, though) at home, and I don't agree completely with what you were saying.

It just upsets me when a tenth grade high schooler sits there and sarcastically calls me "sweetcakes" or "honey," as if I'm just some naive little girl. I'm a 21 year old woman.

If you guys want to run a Windows machine and a Mac, that's fine with me. I just have my opinions, like everyone else. We can agree to disagree, right?
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
post #100 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by costique
WTF? How much did you pay for updating 10.4 to 10.4.5? If you mean Apple charges for updating 10.3 to 10.4, have you noticed that updating Win2K to WinXP is not free? Stop this nonsense, please.

If you were not so rabidly defensive of Apple perhaps you might have reasoned that I was talking about Apple charging for the 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4 updates. A person that bought all 4 would have spent over $500. If you could control yourself and read my post more carefully you would see that I said Windows did not charge for XP updates, I mentioned nothing about Windows 2000, which was never a consumer OS release, it was geared towards business. And it gave them good value for the cost, many are still using it today 6 years later. Plus, applications written for XP work fine on 2000; how many applications for 10.4 will work on 10.2?
Quote:
Windows 3, regardless of its version number, was an alpha version of a window manager slapped together by a bunch of drunk schoolboys who had never even seen a working window-based UI. So what? Mac OS X was a definitely pre-release version, too, but neither of them was free.

Totally pointless rabid fan-boy comment not worth replying to except to say, even if true, two wrongs don't make it right.
post #101 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll

It just upsets me when a tenth grade high schooler sits there and sarcastically calls me "sweetcakes" or "honey," as if I'm just some naive little girl. I'm a 21 year old woman.

You must be feigning stupidity. That's the only way I can rationalize it. Either that, or you think real-life seniority applies on the internet. Treat me with respect and I'll treat you with respect; a five-year spread in age doesn't justify you disrespecting me.
post #102 of 170
Quote:
Sometimes, I think Apple lets a market evolve a bit, then looks at all the things everyone hates about that market, what they like, and then boils that down into a product.

You let someone else release a mediocre product into a market, learn from their mistakes, and release a superior product. That's called smart business.

Quote:
It's the only logical explanation for Apple being so woefully behind the curve on this. I think Microsoft was behind the curve when they jumped on this train 3 years ago.

Your arguement is predicated on the DVR market being successful. Which is not at all. Only a small portion of the Windows user base knows that Media Center even exists and even smaller portion actually uses it. The truth is that Media Center hasn't made a profit in 3 years.

Quote:
Windows may be expensive, but you only have to pay once for the life of the OS, and Windows XP is going on 4 years. They don't charge for service packs. Apple on the other hand has charged full price for every Mac OS X update. And frankly I think it could be argued that if the OS needed such extensive yearly updates that it warrants charging for them then perhaps the early releases were not quite ready for public consumption.

Honestly I don't see OS X upgrades and Windows service packs being synonymous.

10.2 - 10.3 -10.4 have consecutively offered vastly different features and functions from the previous OS. Its far more than just performance, stability and security.

Not only in functionlaity but under the hood improvements as Apple is slowly changing its entire API platform.

On the other hand no one has to upgrade to the next OS you can certainly get by with skipping one for the next.

There is also a strength in incremental OS upgrades. Apple is able to offer new features faster. The new OS gets into users hands faster which allows Apple to continuously fix problems.

It will more than likely take a couple of years before most of the bugs and discrepancies in Vista are worked out for every possibe PC configuration.
post #103 of 170
Quote:
Your arguement is predicated on the DVR market being successful. Which is not at all.

Those two sentences together make no sense.

But I am assuming that your argument is that DVR is not popular. I'd like to see some stats on this because your argument defies common sense and market realities.


Quote:
Only a small portion of the Windows user base knows that Media Center even exists and even smaller portion actually uses it. The truth is that Media Center hasn't made a profit in 3 years.

Where do you get this idea that "Media Center hasn't made a profit"? What does it even mean?

It's just part of Windows. Are you saying that Windows hasn't been profitable?
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #104 of 170
Yea, MCE is just a program that runs on a registry tweaked version of XP Pro.

So you get XP Pro + MCE for cheaper then XP Pro itself. MCE's only dowfall was that until this year, you could only get MCE on packaged systems. I would expect greater usage figures now that you can buy OEM full versions for $129 online.
post #105 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You know what's funny though? People expecting Microsoft to rewrite Windows, while claiming Apple did the same with OS X.



I think it's fair to say that Apple planned it's transition to OSX faaar better than Microsoft's move to Longhorn. Did you read Longhorns original feature set? They tried to do 10X what Apple did with 1/3 of the time. Next spent close to a decade on Nextstep, and Apple has been working on it for 6-7 years now.

So Microsoft painted themselves into a corner with their bastard OS's - who's fault is that?

Quote:
OS X is a big mix of code others have created, code NeXT brought, and code Apple has created (Aqua, AppleScript, etc). To suggest that Apple 'rewrote' OS9 and created OSX and that Microsoft should do the same is... forget it. [/B]

IIRC, Apple bought next and it's engineers, and ended up re-writting much of the code.
post #106 of 170
Quote:
Your arguement is predicated on the DVR market being successful. Which is not at all.

Those two sentences together make no sense.

But I am assuming that your argument is that DVR is not popular. I'd like to see some stats on this because your argument defies common sense and market realities.

"The estimates are today that roughly about 8 to 9 million homes have TiVo or other forms of DVR in them today,"
Tom Rogers CEO of Tivo

There are nearly 300 million people in the United States. 8-9 million people have Tivo or other forms of DVR. Do you look at those numbers and consider the DVR market successful?

Quote:
Where do you get this idea that "Media Center hasn't made a profit"? What does it even mean?


"So far, the product has mainly been a slow-selling sideline to Microsoft's main Windows business -- what another Microsoft manager calls "a shiny new toy," rather than core business for the company."
The Wall Street Journal.


Quote:
It's just part of Windows. Are you saying that Windows hasn't been profitable?


"Windows XP Media Center Edition (XP MCE) is distinguished from other versions of Windows XP by an exclusive preinstalled application.Due to strict hardware requirements, Microsoft has opted not to sell Media Center as an independent retail version. Microsoft only distributes it to MSDN subscribers and OEM System Builders in certain countries. Consumers generally purchase Media Center preinstalled on a new computer, or from a reseller that sells OEM versions of Microsoft software."

"A year ago, Microsoft relaxed Media Center specifications that included a requirement for a TV tuner, thereby allowing PC makers to roll out inexpensive versions and boost sales. Thanks to those changes, says Bruce Greenwood, a director at Hewlett-Packard Co.'s PC group, "the mix of PCs available and sold out there with Media Center increased dramatically in 2005." Sales since the product's birth have hit 6.5 million copies, most of which were sold in the past six months."
The Wall Street Journal

"Media Center PCs have failed to set the market alight, largely because it's a product in search of a demographic."
The Register


Quote:
Yea, MCE is just a program that runs on a registry tweaked version of XP Pro.

So you get XP Pro + MCE for cheaper then XP Pro itself. MCE's only dowfall was that until this year, you could only get MCE on packaged systems. I would expect greater usage figures now that you can buy OEM full versions for $129 online.

"MCE 2005 will likely be much more successful in terms of adoption than its predecessors; Microsoft's decision to unbundle sales of MCE from new systems ensures that."
Arstechnica

Microsoft has only begun to sell Media Center to the general public and not through OEM's. For most of its time you could only buy it from a Media Center OEM.

Media Center has only sold to about 6.5 million of all Windows XP systems. That's 6.5 million out of around 900 million Windows systems. Looking at these numbers would you call Media Center successful?
post #107 of 170
Without going into each quote...

DVR market penetration is anywhere from 6-10% at this point. There are zero reliable figures, but that seems to be the consensus.

Realistically, DVR technology has a higher market penetration than the Mac. And this isn't even close to being a saturated market yet, even the most pessimistic of sources about DVR penetration say it's a big growth area. Macintosh... no one thinks that's going to grow significantly.

So it's not the biggest fish in the bowl, but it's bigger than the Macintosh fish.

There are 900 million Windows systems (I am assuming that you mean in the world) and only 6.5 million shipped with MCE. The trick with these numbers is that you're talking about all Windows systems and MCE has only been available to consumers as a stand-alone product for less than a year.

And MCE is about to be an integrated part of Windows.

The Internet TV market hasn't even started yet. It's not in its infancy yet, mommy and daddy haven't even turned on the Barry White CD.

By the time people figure out (in large numbers) the whole "hey let's connect our computer to our TV" thing Microsoft will have a mature product built right into the OS 90+% of consumers use.

Apple is uniquely good at taking a functionality and "perfecting" it and making it attractive. They can do that for this market with relatively little work. They don't even have to put 1/10th the work into it that they put into the iPod. But they are not, and it is a mystery.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #108 of 170
Quote:
DVR market penetration is anywhere from 6-10% at this point. There are zero reliable figures, but that seems to be the consensus.

I quoted you numbers from the CEO of Tivo. I would not call that zero reliable figures. He knows how many Tivo boxes have been sold and he knows how many people use the service. And without a doubt keeps informed of how many consumers are buying service from his competitors.

Quote:
DVR technology has a higher market penetration than the Mac.

Microwave ovens have a higher maket penetration than the Mac. What does one have to do with the other?

The Macintosh is very profitable for Apple. Media Center is not overly profitable for Microsoft. Tivo boxes have not been extraordinarily profitable for Tivo.

Quote:
The trick with these numbers is that you're talking about all Windows systems and MCE has only been available to consumers as a stand-alone product for less than a year.

MCE has been on the market for nearly four years and did not sell very well. MS lowered the hardware requirements for OEM computers. So at this point if you buy any Dell desktop that costs over $500 it comes bundled with MCE. Along with MS selling MCE as software.

Most people buying Media Center bundled computers have no idea what do with it and don't use it. Because of this actual Media Center use has only marginally risen.

Because MCE has not sold well as optional software the next tactic MS will use is bundling it into Vista with the hope people will actually begin to use it.

Quote:
By the time people figure out (in large numbers) the whole "hey let's connect our computer to our TV" thing Microsoft will have a mature product built right into the OS 90+% of consumers use.


"I recently spoke to a fairly tech-savvy gentleman at MTV who told me he has a Windows Media Center PC, but hes not sure what its supposed to do. Like most of us, he watches TV in the room where the TV is and uses the computer where he works. And he prefers to keep it that way."

"Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I should mention Ive done some work for a PR agency that promoted Windows Media Center PCs and digital entertainment devices. But honestly, I never bought the BS, particularly after I tried to connect one to the TV in my bedroom. After 10 hours of configuring and cursing, and cursing and re-configuring, I finally got it to work with an LCD monitor I had sitting around the house. Alas, after a month of sitting on the TV cabinet, I took it downstairs, where its currently being used as a very expensive doorstop."

Brian L Clark writer for The Tech Enthusiast Network

Quote:
Apple is uniquely good at taking a functionality and "perfecting" it and making it attractive. They can do that for this market with relatively little work. They don't even have to put 1/10th the work into it that they put into the iPod. But they are not, and it is a mystery.

Its no mystery Apple can look at the market and see at this point there isn't much profit from it.

DVR is such a growth industry that Tivo is giving its boxes away in the hopes that people will pay to use its service.

Apple may market a DVR. None of us really know. My guess would be that Apple is waiting to see if consumers begin to adopt the DVR in mass and it actually becomes a profitable market.
post #109 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
I quoted you numbers from the CEO of Tivo. I would not call that zero reliable figures. He knows how many Tivo boxes have been sold and he knows how many people use the service. And without a doubt keeps informed of how many consumers are buying service from his competitors.

He doesn't actually have many competitors. I'd say most people get their DVRs from their cable companies, not from a Best Buy shelf.

Quote:
Media Center is not overly profitable for Microsoft.

Ah, wonderful. We've gone from "hasn't made a profit in 3 years" to "not overly profitable".

MCE is a part of WindowsXP. And WindowsXP has been very profitable.

Quote:
Most people buying Media Center bundled computers have no idea what do with it and don't use it. Because of this actual Media Center use has only marginally risen.

Do you have any numbers on this?

Quote:
Because MCE has not sold well as optional software the next tactic MS will use is bundling it into Vista with the hope people will actually begin to use it.

Where can I buy MCE as a standalone application?

Quote:
Brian L Clark writer for The Tech Enthusiast Network

Anecdotal evidence is the best kind of evidence!
10 hours? I bet he's not exaggerating at all!

Quote:
DVR is such a growth industry that Tivo is giving its boxes away in the hopes that people will pay to use its service.

TiVO is an entirely different animal.
WinMCE is merely an application bundled with a full-fledged operating system.

Microsoft writes it once and sells it a million times.

Quote:
Apple may market a DVR. None of us really know. My guess would be that Apple is waiting to see if consumers begin to adopt the DVR in mass and it actually becomes a profitable market.

A DVR? Who says they have to market "a DVR"? Just some DVR software in a Mac mini will be fine. Or a Mac Small with one PCIExpress slot for a tuner expansion card. Not exactly brain surgery and not very cost intensive.

It's only software.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #110 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
You must be feigning stupidity. That's the only way I can rationalize it. Either that, or you think real-life seniority applies on the internet. Treat me with respect and I'll treat you with respect; a five-year spread in age doesn't justify you disrespecting me.

Okay, now you're hinting that I'm stupid. And from what I was taught, respect is earned. With that, this conversation has ended.

Gentlemen, resume your discussion..
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
post #111 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
Okay, now you're hinting that I'm stupid.

Just as you were clearly saying (not even hinting) that all Windows-using people are "mindless drones" (or something to that effect, which, in my opinion, is a little worse than hinting someone's stupid).

When people called you on it, you claimed you had the right to have an opinion. Please provide the same right to Placebo as well.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #112 of 170
I didn't mean the drone term in a threatning manner. I just know that's how I personally felt as a once Windows user. Microsoft has that affect on people, it did me. I didn't even fully realize the fact that I had other choices until five years ago. Mindless? That'd be like calling me mindless too. He can have his opinion, but I no longer wish to pursue this silly spat any further; it's worn thin on me.

Call me old-fashioned, but yes, I was raised to acknowledge seniority, Internet or not, but it's no matter now, I wish to leave this young man be; we obviously don't see eye to eye, so I'll give him his space.
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
Reply
post #113 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
"The estimates are today that roughly about 8 to 9 million homes have TiVo or other forms of DVR in them today,"
Tom Rogers CEO of Tivo

There are nearly 300 million people in the United States. 8-9 million people have Tivo or other forms of DVR. Do you look at those numbers and consider the DVR market successful?

You are not comparing like with like. Number of people does not equal number of households. There are 8 to 9 million households in the U.S. with Tivo. You also fail to mention how many households have DVRs that are not Tivos.

You are also failing to appreciate the "media center" growth potential. Here in the U.K., at least, "media center" PCs are only just starting to get media attention outside of PC magazines. There is now a lot of interest from HiFi and Home Cinema people. Why? Because only now is the hardware starting to live up to the promise. Windows Media Center came before its time, and that's why it hasn't done amazingly well yet. Trust me, this market is going to get a lot bigger.
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
post #114 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac_Doll
I didn't mean the drone term in a threatning manner. I just know that's how I personally felt as a once Windows user. Microsoft has that affect on people, it did me. I didn't even fully realize the fact that I had other choices until five years ago. Mindless? That'd be like calling me mindless too. He can have his opinion, but I no longer wish to pursue this silly spat any further; it's worn thin on me.

Call me old-fashioned, but yes, I was raised to acknowledge seniority, Internet or not, but it's no matter now, I wish to leave this young man be; we obviously don't see eye to eye, so I'll give him his space.

People should have an open mind in both directions. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate every now and then to keep it real around here. Mac users tend to get obssessed and rhetorical, and let Apple have their opinions. Who here is still sore about the Intel switch? Not many people. Who hated John Dvorak for advocating and predicting such a switch? Practically everyone. But once Apple deems it beneficial and the new, great thing, their userbase comes to like it rather... quickly.

The people you knew were probably using Windows because they weren't really that interested in their computing experience, and while there are many happy converts from Windows, there are also many intelligent Windows users who use Windows either by informed preference or because their work brings them to use programs that only function on the Windows platform. I'm not a hater - I love the Mac, and I recognize that it, just as Windows, has its flaws.
post #115 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
MCE is a part of WindowsXP. And WindowsXP has been very profitable.

[/B]

The majority of MCE boxes are sold without Tuners, so they are obviously not being used as intended. By all accounts MCE has been an utter failure.
post #116 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by the cool gut
The majority of MCE boxes are sold without Tuners, so they are obviously not being used as intended. By all accounts MCE has been an utter failure.

That's wrong because MCE has many purposes, and watching TV is but one of them. Take the TV out, and you have something similar too, but much snappier and beefier than, Front Row.

Has Front Row been an utter failure? If so, MCE has been too. If not, then, we agree.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #117 of 170
Placebo, while I agree that many Apple fans are *way* too eager to drink the Kool-Aid, I don't see how you're 'keeping it real' with the Intel switch example. At the time that Dvorak was beating the drum, it would have been a stupid *stupid* move. The Intel chips simply were not as capable or power-efficient as the PPC chips. Then things changed. It's not that the Apple user base (well, not all) blindly followed the Jobsian train, but that the technology itself changed. Two years ago, given the state of the CPUs, an Intel switch would have been idiotic. Now, with the Core architecture, it makes much more sense. Dvorak was still wrong, because of the *timing*.

The tech shifted to make the switch reasonable. That's what I, and many others, realize. Without that, it would have still been a major mistake.

groverat: MCE has *one* distinguishing feature over FrontRow: DVR. Without that, it's 'just FrontRow'. If few of that 6.5million are using that capability, (and I believe that few are,) then MCE is, for all intents and purposes, being used *AS* FrontRow, yes? In which case, for all those non-DVR-usin' users, FrontRow would be a perfectly viable option, right?

Of all the DVR owners I know, none use MCE. Tivo, yes. Cable company boxes, yes. Linux + MythTV, many. MCE? Not a one. And honestly, compared to the number of TV viewers I know, the DVR owners are miniscule.

Tivo has been skirting with financial trouble. Cable companies are switching to on-demand access. The traditional network/advertising model is starting to crumble. My prediction? In five years, most digital television will be viewed on-demand, with DVRs being a fading memory. You'll get the convenience of a DVR, without the DVR. Will there still be a market for them? Sure. But it will be shrinking. I'd love to have a Mac DVR now... but I also am unsure that it would make good business sense over the next couple of years. Solutions exist now for Mac users that let them meet their own needs. I don't see the issue with that.

A corollary to the on-demand shift that I see as inevitable: selling video online suddenly becomes a lot more mainstream.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
post #118 of 170
Quote:
He doesn't actually have many competitors. I'd say most people get their DVRs from their cable companies, not from a Best Buy shelf.

Well if someone rents a DVR from a cable company that performs the same function of a Tivo. This option will prevent that potential customer from buying a Tivo and paying for their service. That is the very definiton of a competitor.

Quote:
Ah, wonderful. We've gone from "hasn't made a profit in 3 years" to "not overly profitable".

Alright let say this. Since we don't know how much it cost MS to develop MCE. Lets say selling 6.5 million copies they have recouped their initial investment. For a company as large as MS to really have a hit they need to sell in extremely large volume as in the hundreds of millions. 6.5 million will not have much positive impact on their bottom line or on their stock price.


Quote:
MCE is a part of WindowsXP. And WindowsXP has been very profitable.

No MCE is an XP version. Hundreds of millions of copies of XP have been sold without MCE.

Quote:
Most people buying Media Center bundled computers have no idea what do with it and don't use it. Because of this actual Media Center use has only marginally risen.

Do you have any numbers on this?

I've given you plenty of numbers and quotes from other sources that support what I've said. You've given nothing but your opinion. Give me some numbers or quotes that support your arguement.

Quote:
Because MCE has not sold well as optional software the next tactic MS will use is bundling it into Vista with the hope people will actually begin to use it.

Where can I buy MCE as a standalone application?

MS first business model for MCE was to sell it only through OEM on specialized hardware. The consumer had to choose to buy this specialized hardware to use MCE. This is the optional part. Very few people opted to buy it.

Given a choice very few consumers chose to buy MCE so MS lowered the hardware requirements for MCE so that HP and Dell could bundle the software in $500 dollar computers. Now Dell sells MCE on nearly every computer they make, whether the consumer wants it or not.

Lowering the choice even further MS will now bundle MCE right into Vista. Hoping consumers will discover this new functionality and begin using it.

Quote:
Anecdotal evidence is the best kind of evidence!
10 hours? I bet he's not exaggerating at all!

He may have been exaggerating his point, but his story is not the only one of how difficult MCE can be to set up.

Quote:
TiVO is an entirely different animal.
WinMCE is merely an application bundled with a full-fledged operating system.

One is hardware based and the other is software based but they both perform many of the same functions. They have enough over lap that it is very unlikely that one house hold would have an MCE and Tivo.

Both of these products can be judged equally in the DVR market and up to this point neither product has been met with any extreme demand.

Quote:
A DVR? Who says they have to market "a DVR"? Just some DVR software in a Mac mini will be fine. Or a Mac Small with one PCIExpress slot for a tuner expansion card. Not exactly brain surgery and not very cost intensive.

Its unlikely Apple would just create software that could turn any Mac into a DVR. Looking at MCE the set up process is too cumbersome and involved. Apple would want you to plug your television into their hardware and it just works. Much the way a Tivo does.

Quote:
You are not comparing like with like. Number of people does not equal number of households. There are 8 to 9 million households in the U.S. with Tivo. You also fail to mention how many households have DVRs that are not Tivos.

Ok, their are estimated to be 109 million households in the United States. According to Tom Rogers CEO of Tivo 8-9 million households have a DVR. Which for an entire consumer product is still a very small number.

Quote:
You are also failing to appreciate the "media center" growth potential. Here in the U.K., at least, "media center" PCs are only just starting to get media attention outside of PC magazines. There is now a lot of interest from HiFi and Home Cinema people. Why? Because only now is the hardware starting to live up to the promise. Windows Media Center came before its time, and that's why it hasn't done amazingly well yet. Trust me, this market is going to get a lot bigger.

Of course there is growth potential. I've never said that DVR's won't grow in the future. I'm talking about the present. At present there is lackluster consumer demand for DVR's. Even more lackluster for computer based Media Centers.

My personal estimate is people won't be too excited about MCE. After the average Joe/Jane have spent a long hard day at work with Windows machines. They want to come home during leisure time and have to deal with a Windows machine hooked to their television.
post #119 of 170
Quote:
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
Well, maybe for upgrade pricing $250USD would work. Right now a non-upgrade of XP Pro retails at $299.99. Ultimate is supposed to be even more expensive.

Also keep in mind that so far Mac users have been spending $129 a year keeping up with the Mac OS X upgrade scheme, although I suspect that Apple will have one definitive release of Leopard near when Longhorn comes out and the upgrade cycle will slow down after that.
post #120 of 170
The last two OS X upgrades have been about every 18 months and no not everyone using a Mac have upgraded nor paid $129 for every upgrade.

Apple does not lock the OS serial code to one computer, one copy of OS X can upgrade several computers.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Vista Experience: ha ha ha ha ha