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Apple unveils Mac mini Core Duo - Page 4

post #121 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:06pm
Well, as mini owner, the main negative I see is losing the $499 base price point. Kind of begs the question of where was the price/performance gain of switching to Intel (sure, it's way faster, but under $500 is low end, not $600). The optical audio out is the main thing I wished for on my mini, and it's there. Dropping the modem here for more USB ports here is a plus (I already had to buy a hub), unlike the stupidity of dropping the modem on the MacBook Pro which is necessary for a mobile computer.

If the Core Solo and Core Duo are pin compatible, much of the rest of the specs make sense, because then then the only options are off the motherboard: just drives and RAM. Hopefully that will lead to lower cost in the long run.

All-in-all, an OK mini for the switch to Intel. Maybe by the next revision, they'll have one that I'll want to complement my current mini. Now just please make Front Row available for the rest of us!!!
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post #122 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by furious_
With price points in Australia $999 and $1299 respectively for a box this is why people buy dells in Australia, for that you get everything you need and a "faster" meaning bugger numbers Pentium 4. 3ghz and that is what poeple want big numbers.

The Core Duo runs circles around the ageing Pentium 4.
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post #123 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:11pm
Quote:
We don't expect a high end or even a medium level graphics card. All we are asking for is an entry level $50 (retail) graphics card, which we would gladly pay extra for as a BTO option.

The question there would be how much more real performance would be gotten out of this $50 graphics card?

On charts I've seen you get 10% -20% improvement from a slightly better graphics card but you need one significantly more expensive to get significantly better performance.

I've seen another suggestion that ATI and Nvidia maybe slow to write many new drivers for Intel based OS X. That using Intel's graphics may have allowed Apple to ship the mini faster.
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post #124 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Kind of begs the question of where was the price/performance gain of switching to Intel

Apple talked about performance per watt not price.

From what I've been reading the Core Duo chips used in the mini retails for $210, with Apple's discount is probably around $100-$150 and is significantly more expensive than the G4.

Quote:
unlike the stupidity of dropping the modem on the MacBook Pro which is necessary for a mobile computer.

I don't know about everyone else. But with WiFi, Bluetooth, and Ethernet. The modem port on my PowerBook has sat unused for three years. With such better options why would you want to use it?
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post #125 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:20pm
Quote:
I've seen another suggestion that ATI and Nvidia maybe slow to write many new drivers for Intel based OS X. That using Intel's graphics may have allowed Apple to ship the mini faster

That's an excellent point.

Part of the problem with graphics cards is the hype that Jobs created. We were wowed by images of Core Video and Core Image doing wonderful things. Thus Jobs created the desire and there is going to be inevitable backlash when people don't get this (yes I know Core Graphics is supported) without the "stigma" of Integrated Graphics.

I choose to look at the mini like this and this is why I'll purchase.

1. I wanted a fast computer.
Check- ICS and ICD 1.6Ghz is faster than the G4 by a mile

2. I wanted flexibility-
Check DVI out, small size..excellent 3rd party options.

3. I wanted robust networking-
Check-GigE, Aiport 11G, Bluetooth 2.0.

I wanted affordable-
Check- $800 is pushing it I don't have to worry about many upgrades.

In the future I'll get a MacBook Pro and the mini will get hooked up to my HDTV. I needed the Gigabit Ethernet because I plan to attach a NAS or SAN device on my network.

My needs are different than perhaps the average person but I'm happy that most of what I need is a standard feature.
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post #126 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:22pm
You all are missing the reasoning behind the integrated graphics...

Apple is obviously trying to market the mini as a media center... Using integrated video with shared memory is the only way to keep costs at $600 yet still allow the graphics engine to use as much Ram as needed for movies and HD video content...

Movies are the next step for Apple folks.. Hi-def movies require A LOT of video RAM.. Apple is certainly not going to include a 256 mb graphics card in a Mini and still be able keep the price at $600... Integrated video with shared Ram was the solution...

And yes, the new mini is capable of displaying core graphics..
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post #127 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Quisling
I gurantee the top of the line mini still chokes just trying to watch the HD trailers you can get off itunes.

No way. HD is more of a processor hog than a GPU hog. I've heard that this chip has HD acceleration included, although I haven't been able to confirm that. We'll know for sure soon enough when someone tries running HD on one of these (shipping now). I'll bet it plays HD just fine, might even handle multiple streams.

Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
They do however leave themselves room to slot in a Celeron M 4xx model at about $100 less when Intel start shipping that chip.

Does it use the same socket as the Core?

Quote:
Originally posted by bitemymac
What's the point of having core duo with 99 cent graphic chip?

Doing work instead of playing games.

Quote:
Originally posted by Louzer
Well, great point, except you can get a Tivo with a lifetime subscription for like $350-$400

That's assuming TIVO stays in business long enough for you to break even on that. eyeTV has its own interface, have you ever used it? And you can easily add HD space to the mini with a FW or USB drive.

Quote:
Originally posted by Thereubster
Looks like the new Shuttle Mac mini competitor might suddenly be more attractive as well http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile/...226223550.html
its bigger sure, but not by a lot, ATIX1400 graphics, 3.5 inch HD MCE support, seems a better option (depending on price)

"Depending on price" is a big factor. Right now it's vaporware, and unpriced vaporware no less.

Quote:
Originally posted by Louzer

BTW, what's the deal with apple putting 4 USB ports on this machine, and yet there's only 3 ports total on the freakin' high-high-high end macs! That's just stupid to no end.

The mac towers have four USB 2 ports. The keyboard also has two USB 1 ports, so you can hook up 4 USB things in addition to your mouse and keyboard.

Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
on a Mac that's not true. H264 is entirely done by the CPU even on cards that support H264 in hardware.

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that the imacs and macbooks used h264 acceleration. If they can play HD that well without help, so much the better, in the tests I've seen the Duos did better with HD than even dual G5's.
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post #128 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
From what I've been reading the Core Duo chips used in the mini retails for $210, with Apple's discount is probably around $100-$150 and is significantly more expensive than the G4.

Yeah I heard that they paid less for PPC.

The myth that PPCs were more expensive was all part of the RDF. I read all about it in forbes when the intel thing was merely speculation.

Mac users THOUGHT they were paying more for PPC, the reality is they were paying more for Apple.

There's a damn good reason they're quashing the OSx86 project and becoming less open-source, and that reason is huge margins on the machines.
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post #129 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Mac users THOUGHT they were paying more for PPC, the reality is they were paying more for Apple

True..we never really knew what the PPC chips cost Apple.
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post #130 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
The question there would be how much more real performance would be gotten out of this $50 graphics card?

On charts I've seen you get 10% -20% improvement from a slightly better graphics card but you need one significantly more expensive to get significantly better performance.

I've seen another suggestion that ATI and Nvidia maybe slow to write many new drivers for Intel based OS X. That using Intel's graphics may have allowed Apple to ship the mini faster.

Time out. Stop looking at Windows DirectX9/OpenGL charts when comparing OpenGL accelerated OS X and there in-house Graphics Drivers. The Quartz Model does work differently.

These shouldn't even be compared. When Apple gets OpenGL 1.5 correct, not buggy, and optimized then you'll suddenly understand just how subpar this decision is, but then again this is not designed for Games. Hell when they actually update their support for OpenGL to 2.0 and optimized we might be discussing OS X 10.6.

Btw. ATI and NVIDIA don't write the drivers. If you don't believe me then contact the Device Driver Team. Then again you might not get through to Dean Reece or any member of his team to one of them directly.
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post #131 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:29pm
<threadjack>

Guess we're not likely to get an Airport Express A/V now, huh?

</threadjack>
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post #132 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
You all are missing the reasoning behind the integrated graphics...

Apple is obviously trying to market the mini as a media center... Using integrated video with shared memory is the only way to keep costs at $600 yet still allow the graphics engine to use as much Ram as needed for movies and HD video content...

Movies are the next step for Apple folks.. Hi-def movies require A LOT of video RAM.. Apple is certainly not going to include a 256 mb graphics card in a Mini and still be able keep the price at $600... Integrated video with shared Ram was the solution...

And yes, the new mini is capable of displaying core graphics..

Actually it is the only way to keep their targeted Margins.

And Core Graphics enabled is not the same beast as Core Imaging enabled, not to mention Quartz 2D Extreme enabled.
We all know how well Quartz 2D Extreme is working out now don't we?
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post #133 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
True..we never really knew what the PPC chips cost Apple.


haha thanks for correcting my typo, *fixed*
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post #134 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:33pm
my initial reaction to the mini is that it's cool, but i'll need to revamp the argument to get my parents to switch so they stop asking me to do something about importing their photos every time i visit, and so they lose the confusing way they do their email, etc.

i could have them get the core solo since their CPU usage isn't really that intensive. but i wouldn't feel comfortable getting them just 512 b/c I know how my iMac G5 hangs sometimes, and i just want them to be wowed by the mac in every way.

so the Solo
with a gig ram and 125 GB drive, and a dual layer drive comes to 924


and the Duo
with a gig RAM and 125 GB drive, comes to 1,024

so how i am supposed to convince my parents to switch, when they have this jet engine Dell that they think is a good computer and probably paid $500 for at those prices is a little confusing to me.

really i wish i just had the money to buy it for them. maybe i should start one of those websites where anonymouse people give donations.
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post #135 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:34pm
Raising the price by $100-stupid
Shared Graphics Memory with motherboard-stupid
No modem-stupid
Small Hard Drives-stupid

Apple once again never fails to dissapoint me.
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post #136 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by furious_
With price points in Australia $999 and $1299 respectively for a box this is why people buy dells in Australia, for that you get everything you need and a "faster" meaning bugger numbers Pentium 4. 3ghz and that is what poeple want big numbers.

Cheapest Dell I could find was $1074.70. It had a 2.8 GHz p4, 160GB 3.5 inch HD (free upgrade from 80GB for online orders) though and a 19" analog monitor.

The difference doesn't look that huge to me. The mac mini is smaller.
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post #137 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally posted by sharp_spot
Done. Elgato EyeTV 200/500 turns your Mac into a DVR, and use Equinux MediaCentral (freeware) instead of Front Row.

The downside: $5-600 for a Mac mini + $3-350 for the EyeTV.

The upside: no monthly fee (a la Tivo), also puts Mac OS X in your living room.

I was thinking about this. What if Apple's going to try to promote TV shows of iTunes. Maybe some kind of subscription model (like how cable TV service is now) through iTunes (I think they should change the name to iMedia now since it's not just music).

I would be down for a _small_ montly fee for unlimited viewing of shows from iTunes (bump up the res though for greater than iPod viewing). Throw in timeshifting to the viewing and I'd take it over TiVo.
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post #138 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
2 memory slots- Finally you can upgrade the memory without removing the orginal memory.

Better look again at Apple's site.
The SODIMMs come always in pairs. And you do not want to change that because the GMA950 needs the bandwidth (10600 MB/s in a Mini!)...
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post #139 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally posted by octane
<threadjack>

Guess we're not likely to get an Airport Express A/V now, huh?

</threadjack>

it'd probably undercut most of the use for the mac mini
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post #140 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:43pm
Quote:
There's a damn good reason they're quashing the OSx86 project and becoming less open-source, and that reason is huge margins on the machines.

OS X was never an open source project. It is and has always been proprietary intellectual property.

Apple is a multibillion dollar publicly traded company that has an obligation to make its share holders money.

Quote:
Time out. Stop looking at Windows DirectX9/OpenGL charts when comparing OpenGL accelerated OS X and there in-house Graphics Drivers.

Sooooo.....are you saying if Apple was ever able to get Open GL right then a $50 graphics card will offer significant performance over an integrated graphics card?

If not then I have no idea what you are saying.
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post #141 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Robin Hood
The Core Duo runs circles around the ageing Pentium 4.


but how many dell uses would no that?

poeple think 3ghz for $999 or 1.6ghz for the same money. they will go with the 3ghz
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post #142 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Telomar
Cheapest Dell I could find was $1074.70. It had a 2.8 GHz p4, 160GB 3.5 inch HD (free upgrade from 80GB for online orders) though and a 19" analog monitor.

The difference doesn't look that huge to me. The mac mini is smaller.

poeple see "i get a box from apple or a hole package from dell i will go for a dell as i get everything i need for the same money."
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post #143 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally posted by sharp_spot
Done. Elgato EyeTV 200/500 turns your Mac into a DVR, and use Equinux MediaCentral (freeware) instead of Front Row.

The downside: $5-600 for a Mac mini + $3-350 for the EyeTV.

The upside: no monthly fee (a la Tivo), also puts Mac OS X in your living room.

Thanks for the heads up on that. I wonder how many applications are available for the Mac that do this? If this is the only option I'm surprised there are not more.
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post #144 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally posted by minderbinder
The mac towers have four USB 2 ports. The keyboard also has two USB 1 ports, so you can hook up 4 USB things in addition to your mouse and keyboard.

I just looked at my DP 2.5, it has 3 USB ports: 1 in front, 2 in back. Those keyboard ports don't count and you know it

For the record, I have two 4 port USB hubs hooked up to my G5.
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post #145 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
[.....]

And just how much profit do you think is in sub $500 computers? If you can get $40 you're doing damn good.

[.....]

I wonder if possibly selling cheap[er] (but well built *heh*) computers at a loss to get people to switch or what not and try to gain some marketshare.

Maybe make up that loss through software sales such as iWork and iLife (not the included, but it seems all updates need to be purchases).

Kinda like how supposedly Sony and MS sell their gaming consoles with a loss...something like that.
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post #146 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Thanks for the heads up on that. I wonder how many applications are available for the Mac that do this? If this is the only option I'm surprised there are not more.

not many!

it's the equinux mediacenter is the first I've heard of
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post #147 of 782
2/28/06 at 3:59pm
F.Y. I.
I looked on Apples site and all the drives are 7200 rpm and not 5400. Go to the buy area and in the drive area click on learn more.
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post #148 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Thanks for the heads up on that. I wonder how many applications are available for the Mac that do this? If this is the only option I'm surprised there are not more.

It's NOT the only option.

http://www.miglia.com/

For Europe, the MiniTV DVB-T USB stick is £99 and uses the same EyeTV software as the $350 ElGato box.
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post #149 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by furious_
poeple see "i get a box from apple or a hole package from dell i will go for a dell as i get everything i need for the same money."

But they also see smart, underpaid, tech nerds buying macs anyway, and wonder why.

Yeah, the mini is overpriced from a strictly hardware perspective.. In fact, I'm sure all Apple's stuff is. You pay more for the ability to use OS X.

I don't even agree with calling Apples "higher quality".. the original G5's came with Maxtor hard drives... yeah uh Apple just disproved that theory with extreme prejudice. Not to mention the original iMac G5's kept the hard drives above 150°F.. yikes! And that's not to mention the hardware flaws.. think of the iBook and the mainboard arcs! will somebody think of the mainboard arcs!?

Just the OS X tax. I pay it, you pay it, we all gotta deal with what it locks us into and the hardware features it confines us too. Do your research and bite the bullet

OK, can we not argue about this every time they release a new computer?
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post #150 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by a_greer
Having paid ~$610 for a Mac Mini 1.2 upgraded from 256 to 512 and with built in wifi (NOT BLUETOOTH) and combo drive, I would have GLADLY paid an extra $100 over base for a 1.5GHZ proc, the ability to handle more than a gig of ram (yes, I can fill 12 easilly, I could probably fill a gig too) WIRELESS INCLUDED, frontrow, podcasting in GB without a lot of dicking with XML, AND AUDIO IN...this is WAY better than last years model

I cannot see how anyone can disagree! Where does all the negativity come from?

Of course, I would love a 30" screen thrown in, but I already have a ton of other stuff from all my other macs (23" screen, keyboard up the wazoo and even a megamouse). Why not pop one of these under my best Cube and run it with a 22"Cinema in parallel?
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post #151 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
It's NOT the only option.

http://www.miglia.com/

For Europe, the MiniTV DVB-T USB stick is £99 and uses the same EyeTV software as the $350 ElGato box.

I had a miglia. Don't even think about it.

My EyeTV200 is way better and I haven't used it in about 6 months so the software is probably even more snazy.

The miglia brought my DP800 G4 to a halt and the video quality was repulsive. Also, the PCI card I had wouldn't pause TV.
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post #152 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Raising the price by $100-stupid
Shared Graphics Memory with motherboard-stupid
No modem-stupid
Small Hard Drives-stupid

Apple once again never fails to dissapoint me.

And steve, you're still here. How many of the low-end machines have you bought. I really do not worry about the Modem ($49/44 if I really need it, or carry a mini around to Hotel rooms and don't run it wirelessly), the Hard drive is more of a problem, but that is PB standard stuff.

The only one I don't understand is the Shared Graphics Memory issue, discussion of which seems a bit overblown here, but I would welcome some serious education on that topic.
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post #153 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Eotku
F.Y. I.
I looked on Apples site and all the drives are 7200 rpm and not 5400. Go to the buy area and in the drive area click on learn more.

Actually, you saw under the store option section for harddrives a reference to all drives being 7200rpm.

However, the official specs :
http://www.apple.com/macmini/whatsinside.html

make it clear they are 5400 rpm drives.

Either someone needs to call Apple and verify or its just mere speculation.

My bet is some developer working on the WOF Store screwed up.
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post #154 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:20pm
I've been wondering about how Apple has implemented the graphics driver in the Mini.

In a non-integrated Mac, there's a lot of copying of data in and out of VRAM to allow Quartz to composite graphics. It was part of the push behind Quartz 2D Extreme to lessen this traffic by leaving more data in VRAM and using the GPU more. With 30GB/s bandwidth on some graphics cards, that's a bonus.

In the new Mini they seem to be using Dual channel DDR2 667Mhz RAM giving 10.6GB/s bandwidth. Now, if the system is using the same RAM for both VRAM and system RAM, do they still need to copy between system RAM and VRAM? Does it just bypass the Q2DE issues? Any graphics gurus know how this might work?
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post #155 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
OS X was never an open source project. It is and has always been proprietary intellectual property.

Apple is a multibillion dollar publicly traded company that has an obligation to make its share holders money.



Sooooo.....are you saying if Apple was ever able to get Open GL right then a $50 graphics card will offer significant performance over an integrated graphics card?

If not then I have no idea what you are saying.

A: The GMA950 doesn't do OpenGL 2. (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/gma950/index.htm)
B: To make an extra $43 per machine for margins trumped going with a better GPU.
C: Not having a BTO option to add on a more expensive but limited choice of GPUs for the consumer on the cusp is intentional as has been mentioned and is a huge risk. You go from $599 to $1299 minimum for an iMac. You can find a monitor for < $799 to make up the gap, not to mention faster graphics, larger drive, so on and so forth.

There should be a BTO to close the gap and that is missing.

This is a stop-gap test system for the upcoming future media center options.

If the response is poor they will modify the system and with feedback address its shortcomings or if it exceeds their margin requirements they'll have to readdress their business model.
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post #156 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by slughead
I had a miglia. Don't even think about it.

Not used it myself. I won't get a DVB-T signal till 2011 apparently. That's ok. I barely watch TV.

They do a couple of analog boxes and a US HD box too.
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post #157 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Cubit
And steve, you're still here. How many of the low-end machines have you bought. I really do not worry about the Modem ($49/44 if I really need it, or carry a mini around to Hotel rooms and don't run it wirelessly), the Hard drive is more of a problem, but that is PB standard stuff.

The only one I don't understand is the Shared Graphics Memory issue, discussion of which seems a bit overblown here, but I would welcome some serious education on that topic.

I still have my iMac G3 400 DV!
I have been waiting to get something worth my money and I figured the Intel Mini would be it. I am moving in August and I was going to give my iMac to my mother and then buy a Mini and use my spare 17 inch monitor with it. I figured for 500 bucks I could afford to get a new computer and while not exactly fast it would be a big improvement over my iMac.
Now, I can still afford the $600 but it doesnt help. Then, I HATE shared Memory-thats usually crap however it won't really affect me much because I'm not a gamer.
Basically I was just hoping to stay at the same price point, but just be a little faster. I expected the modem to be in there for the price because I may not be able to afford a cable modem right away after the move. What is the percentage of people using dial-up? I do believe its still in the majority. Apple basically throws those users out the window. I think thats dumb.
Bottom line-I will be buying the Mini because I really don't have any choice.
But I'm not happy about it.
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post #158 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
A: The GMA950 doesn't do OpenGL 2. (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/gma950/index.htm)

Surely that's just a matter of it not having a driver written for OpenGL 2 yet? Or is there some specific hardware feature that's required for OpenGL 2 compliance?

And is that a big deal anyway unless you're a gamer or a 3D modelling pro, both of which are unlikely to be buying a $600 computer?
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post #159 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Surely that's just a matter of it not having a driver written for OpenGL 2 yet? Or is there some specific hardware feature that's required for OpenGL 2 compliance?

And is that a big deal anyway unless you're a gamer or a 3D modelling pro, both of which are unlikely to be buying a $600 computer?

What do you think Quartz uses to accelerate the WindowServer?
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post #160 of 782
2/28/06 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Eotku
F.Y. I.
I looked on Apples site and all the drives are 7200 rpm and not 5400. Go to the buy area and in the drive area click on learn more.

Check again.

edit: actually...my bad, it does say 7200 in the 'Learn More' section...everywhere else, however, it was 5400.
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