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Apple unveils Mac mini Core Duo - Page 9

post #321 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
The PDF states "945G chipset with the 950 graphics media accelerator".

Well, then. You have corrected me.
post #322 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
When most of the orders are one way, and some are the other, those have to be removed from the ass'y lines and have the additions placed by other methods. The lines are constructed for the mass production of standard items. Anything that isn't standard has to be done seperately. Very often, this means hand placement.

The build-to-order products have their "specials" assembled off-line.

The ass'y line looks like a tree. Every time the product comes to a branch where a "special" must be done, it exits the line at that point. It's complex. But it works.

The equipment is not as verstile as you think. They do a run. The entire run must be the same. At the end of the line is the test jig. It tests the boards. All boards must be the same. That's the way mass production works.

I really doubt that. If that's how Apple's production line works, they should spend more money on developing it. (Yes, I know it isn't Apple's production line, it is Quanta's or Asustek's or whatever. Apple could still contribute to its improvement, as it is in their interests to do so).

It really would not be difficult to put some intelligence into the production line. Taking the wireless thing as an example, and considering the two different possibilities of: wireless on daughter-card or wireless direct on motherboard:

Wireless on daughter-card:

Have a production line that makes the daughtercards.

The mac mini production line then has a robot at some point in it that fits the daughter cards. Lets say your production run is for 1000 minis and 800 of them should have wireless. You just have a counter on the robot that fits the daughter cards, and when it reaches 800, it stops fitting them. It should not be hard to make sure the test rig at the end knows that the first 800 minis will have wireless and the next 200 will not.

Wireless on motherboard:

At some point in the motherboard production, chips are placed. You program the pick and place machine to place 800 motherboards with wireless chips, and 200 without.


Apple's BTO systems seem to lag behind Dell's in their capabilities. I would suggest that they should invest in making them better.
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post #323 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
I really doubt that. If that's how Apple's production line works, they should spend more money on developing it. (Yes, I know it isn't Apple's production line, it is Quanta's or Asustek's or whatever. Apple could still contribute to its improvement, as it is in their interests to do so).

It really would not be difficult to put some intelligence into the production line. Taking the wireless thing as an example, and considering the two different possibilities of: wireless on daughter-card or wireless direct on motherboard:

Wireless on daughter-card:

Have a production line that makes the daughtercards.

The mac mini production line then has a robot at some point in it that fits the daughter cards. Lets say your production run is for 1000 minis and 800 of them should have wireless. You just have a counter on the robot that fits the daughter cards, and when it reaches 800, it stops fitting them. It should not be hard to make sure the test rig at the end knows that the first 800 minis will have wireless and the next 200 will not.

Wireless on motherboard:

At some point in the motherboard production, chips are placed. You program the pick and place machine to place 800 motherboards with wireless chips, and 200 without.


Apple's BTO systems seem to lag behind Dell's in their capabilities. I would suggest that they should invest in making them better.

I suggest that you call the manufacturers of the machinery and computers. They would be interested to hear your ideas.

Production lines are notoriously difficult to alter. Dell's lines are no different.
post #324 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I suggest that you call the manufacturers of the machinery and computers. They would be interested to hear your ideas.

Production lines are notoriously difficult to alter. Dell's lines are no different.

If they really are that hard to alter, they are poorly engineered. You're an engineer, right? How hard can it be to fit a programmable counter onto a robot? The things are computer controlled, yes?

edit:

I know that setting up a production line is hard, and I'm not surprised. Getting all the tolerances right and making sure you do everything in the correct order in the correct amount of time is a daunting task. The things I am suggesting would add a very small amount of time to the setup prodedure.
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post #325 of 782
Originally posted by neumac
...$1,200 Core Duo mini tower anyone?..


You'll have a whole ton of takers on that one. Plus if we are talking GPU-wise the sweet spot of price/performance - a nVidia 6600GT or 6800GS card (these outperform ATi's x1300 and x1600 at openGL stuff, however nVidia enabling hardware h.264 encoding and decoding would be the icing on the cake...)
post #326 of 782
forgive me if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't the new Mac Mini be a good machine for programming?
post #327 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by BenRoethig
GMA950 Graphics albeit with some dedicated memory, no included consumer word processor, and its more expensive. It has a lot of cool new features, but it's not something I'd want to buy.

I believe Apple CAN'T include a consumer word processor with Mac's anymore. There is no other logical reason why they don't. I think Steve had to bend over and take one for the team on this issue.

When you think of the amazing power and completeness of the iLife suite for most any consumer tasks, it makes no sense that Apple wouldn't include Pages in iLife even if it meant raising iLife's price a bit. Therefore I submit that it is a part of an Apple/Microsoft deal where Microsoft agrees to keep making Office for Mac and Apple agrees not to bundle iWork or try making an Office quality replacement suite.

In the end, if it is for work you buy Office. If you have Office at work and can afford it, you buy Office for home. Office is an institution so Apple needs it to stay available. It's like the QWERTY keyboard which will won't die in the US until decades after the US finally manages to go metric...

Corey
post #328 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by rgreen
forgive me if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't the new Mac Mini be a good machine for programming?

I think it would make a nice little xcode box. the only drawback is...no dual monitor support unless you buy one of those dvi splitters, and that's a horrible way to live. I guess you could attach a 23" monitor but nothing beats duals for coding...I'd get an iMac and use the dvi out for a nice dual rig.
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post #329 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by sandau
I think it would make a nice little xcode box. the only drawback is...no dual monitor support unless you buy one of those dvi splitters, and that's a horrible way to live. I guess you could attach a 23" monitor but nothing beats duals for coding...I'd get an iMac and use the dvi out for a nice dual rig.

Thanks for the response. I only have one 20" LCD so it would work for me. I never really cared for the appearance off the imac (like that really matters. ;-))but maybe I should reconsider.
post #330 of 782
This model is pricey for the feature set. The integrated graphics card is a bottleneck too. I like the concept of the mini, but there is a limit on the compromises you can make for the form factor. A larger box with more power is more appealing. YMMV.
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post #331 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
If they really are that hard to alter, they are poorly engineered. You're an engineer, right? How hard can it be to fit a programmable counter onto a robot? The things are computer controlled, yes?

edit:

I know that setting up a production line is hard, and I'm not surprised. Getting all the tolerances right and making sure you do everything in the correct order in the correct amount of time is a daunting task. The things I am suggesting would add a very small amount of time to the setup prodedure.

It isn't that they can't use a programmable counter. The lines simply aren't designed to do that. That doesn't mean that they couldn't be designed to do that. But the added complexity would only result in coding errors, extra machinery, more space in the plant, and still wouldn't be flexible enough to cover recipe changes. even if they could do that, where do these specials go when they are off the line/ How will anyone know which units are which? They all get loaded for the next step in the assembly process. They would still have to be off-loaded at the end.

You have to remember that these systems are designed to put out millions of the same devices. Lines that only put out a couple hundred thousand are somewhat more flexible, but not to the extent that you would like.

This all goes back to Henry Ford. "Give them any color they like, as long as it's black." That's the way to get the price down. specials are always assembled by hand. Even at Dell. There are certain operations that the robots simply can't do. They are really very simple beasts. Up, down, turn. That's easy. Insert is much harder. Sideways motions are very difficult. That has to be done by hand. There are rows upon rows of women doing that.

Certain soldering operations must be done by hand as well. Stuffing a board into a molded case almost always is done by hand, as are the screws. Assembly of the parts of the cases are done by hand. Even the placing of the labels and the protective plastic on the surface is done by hand.

These aren't chip plants.
post #332 of 782
Quote:
Apple include Pages in iLife even if it meant raising iLife's price a bit.

At the very least include Pages with every new Mac, just as they do iLife.
post #333 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
At the very least include Pages with every new Mac, just as they do iLife.

I would like them to give us the choice. But the software is already installed, so I don't know how they would do that.

The idea is to give us the machine ready for use.
post #334 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
That's for the 945G. The 950 is a much better chip. The 950 is certified for Vista, I don't think the 945G is. Correct that, if I'm wrong.

This past August Article is quite poignant.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/d...805045323.html

Excerpt:
Quote:
The new graphics capabilities in Windows Vista will require a powerful graphics engine if you want to take full advantage of all the new and cool stuff, such as the new Aero Glass look. You probably want to avoid the low-end of the current GPU range and make sure you get a GPU that supports DirectX 9 and has at least 64MB of graphics memory, a special article by Microsoft dedicated to hardware requirements of Windows Vista explains.

Windows Vista Aero Glass, Aero Express and Diamond themes (interfaces) use DirectX 9.0 pixel shaders to render the GUI and everything on the screen. This puts pretty high requirements for graphics processor used for rendering, as rapid appearance of dialog boxes and windows is crucial for comfortable and fast work of a user. Given that graphics cores integrated into chipsets generally provide relatively slow performance under substantial workloads, Microsoft seems to be correct in advising customers not to expect those to be sufficient choice for Windows Vista.

It should be noted that DirectX 9.0-supporting graphics card with 64MB of memory is an entry-level of Microsofts recommendations, which means that higher-end graphics cards are preferable for the Vistas advanced interfaces, such as Aero Glass, Aero Express and Diamond.

If you chose a system that has built-in graphics, again make sure that the system has a PCI Express or AGP slot that will let you add a graphics card later in case the onboard graphics chipset doesn't fully support Windows Vista, Microsoft advices.

Intel's 965 GMA out Q2 2006.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/chipset...223041305.html

Quote:
Intel Corp.s next-generation integrated graphics core will reportedly provide a lot of innovations among graphics capabilities, according to leaked slides from the companys roadmap. Particularly, the new core that is to be found in Intel G965-series chipsets will sport new 3D capabilities as well as high-definition video acceleration.

Intel G965 core-logic will support Shader Model 3.0, including pixel shaders 3.0 and vertex shaders 3.0 as well as hardware decoding of WMV9b HD high-definition video streams. In addition, the new integrated graphics core from the worlds largest chipmaker will provide HDMI output, according to slides published by HKEPC web-site. It is unclear whether the new graphics core will support HDCP encryption as well.

According to the web-site, the first A0 samples of the Intel G965 graphics and memory controller hub (GMCH) have been out and their testing is complete. At this point Intel is reportedly testing the B0 samples of the chipsets, whereas the final C0 or C1 samples will be out in 14th 18th week (May, 2006). The availability of the Intel G965 chipset is expected in the third quarter of the year.

Intel controls over one third of the graphics market. In particular, the company shipped over 37% of graphics solutions in Q4 2005, according to Mercury Research.

The new Intel G965 GMCH product will be the second mainboard-integrated core-logic solution supporting Shader Model 3.0 capabilities. Nvidia Corp. was the first last year to unveil its GeForce 6100 and 6150 solutions with similar feature sets, however, those chipsets were intended for processors by Advanced Micro Devices.

Reported Tech Specs:
http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/5155/

ntel 965 Broadwater chipset to be available in 2006Q2
William Henning - Monday, November 14th, 2005 | 11:31AM (PST)


Intel plans to introduce the Broadwater chipset in the second quarter of 2006.

Digitimes reports that the "Broadwater" 965 chipset will be available in both Consumer and Enterprise versions.

For the consumer market:

P965:

* 533/800/1066 MHz FSB
* Dual channel DDR2 800 memory interface

G965: Adds GMA to P965

* Intel GMA (integrated video) to P965

For the enterprise market:

Q963:

* 533/800/1066 MHz FSB
* Dual channel DDR2 533/667
* Intel GMA (integrated video)
* SIPP (Stable Image Platform Program)

Q965: Adds following features to Q963

* DDR2 800 dual channel support
* dual display output
* iAMT (Intel Active Management Technology)

Prices for the chipsets vary from $38-$42

It will be interesting to see how this new chipset performs. The dual DDR800 memory channels will theoretically allow up to 12.8GB/sec memory bandwidth; and the 1066MHz FSB will allow for 8.5GB/sec bandwidth to the CPU - leaving up to 4.3GB/sec bandwidth for the GPU or peripherals for accessing memory (ignoring memory contention overhead) - in practical terms this means that even 32 bit color 1280x1024 Windows desktop display will have a negligable impact on memory bandwith.
post #335 of 782
Quote:
I would like them to give us the choice. But the software is already installed, so I don't know how they would do that.

I suppose this is the choice. The software comes installed but you have to pay for it to keep it.

Maybe Apple doesn't give it away as to avoid too much competition with MS Office. Most people would take a free Pages over spending another $500 for Office.

But if you have to spend money anyway might as well go ahead and buy Office.
post #336 of 782
Quote:
Intel's 965 GMA out Q2 2006.

I would expect Apple to use the new chipset once it becomes available.
post #337 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
This past August Article is quite poignant.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/d...805045323.html

Excerpt:


Intel's 965 GMA out Q2 2006.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/chipset...223041305.html



Reported Tech Specs:
http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/5155/

ntel 965 Broadwater chipset to be available in 2006Q2
William Henning - Monday, November 14th, 2005 | 11:31AM (PST)


Intel plans to introduce the Broadwater chipset in the second quarter of 2006.

Digitimes reports that the "Broadwater" 965 chipset will be available in both Consumer and Enterprise versions.

For the consumer market:

P965:

* 533/800/1066 MHz FSB
* Dual channel DDR2 800 memory interface

G965: Adds GMA to P965

* Intel GMA (integrated video) to P965

For the enterprise market:

Q963:

* 533/800/1066 MHz FSB
* Dual channel DDR2 533/667
* Intel GMA (integrated video)
* SIPP (Stable Image Platform Program)

Q965: Adds following features to Q963

* DDR2 800 dual channel support
* dual display output
* iAMT (Intel Active Management Technology)

Prices for the chipsets vary from $38-$42

It will be interesting to see how this new chipset performs. The dual DDR800 memory channels will theoretically allow up to 12.8GB/sec memory bandwidth; and the 1066MHz FSB will allow for 8.5GB/sec bandwidth to the CPU - leaving up to 4.3GB/sec bandwidth for the GPU or peripherals for accessing memory (ignoring memory contention overhead) - in practical terms this means that even 32 bit color 1280x1024 Windows desktop display will have a negligable impact on memory bandwith.

That was the one I was thinking about. Thanks.
post #338 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
I suppose this is the choice. The software comes installed but you have to pay for it to keep it.

Maybe Apple doesn't give it away as to avoid too much competition with MS Office. Most people would take a free Pages over spending another $500 for Office.

But if you have to spend money anyway might as well go ahead and buy Office.

Most people don't need Office. Student/Teacher edition is pretty much the same thing, and costs no more than $135, even at Apple, and they don't have the lowest prices. I've seen it for $99 at times here in NYC.
post #339 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
This past August Article is quite poignant.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/d...805045323.html

Excerpt:


Intel's 965 GMA out Q2 2006.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/chipset...223041305.html



Reported Tech Specs:
http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/5155/

ntel 965 Broadwater chipset to be available in 2006Q2
William Henning - Monday, November 14th, 2005 | 11:31AM (PST)


Intel plans to introduce the Broadwater chipset in the second quarter of 2006.

Digitimes reports that the "Broadwater" 965 chipset will be available in both Consumer and Enterprise versions.

For the consumer market:

P965:

* 533/800/1066 MHz FSB
* Dual channel DDR2 800 memory interface

G965: Adds GMA to P965

* Intel GMA (integrated video) to P965

For the enterprise market:

Q963:

* 533/800/1066 MHz FSB
* Dual channel DDR2 533/667
* Intel GMA (integrated video)
* SIPP (Stable Image Platform Program)

Q965: Adds following features to Q963

* DDR2 800 dual channel support
* dual display output
* iAMT (Intel Active Management Technology)

Prices for the chipsets vary from $38-$42

It will be interesting to see how this new chipset performs. The dual DDR800 memory channels will theoretically allow up to 12.8GB/sec memory bandwidth; and the 1066MHz FSB will allow for 8.5GB/sec bandwidth to the CPU - leaving up to 4.3GB/sec bandwidth for the GPU or peripherals for accessing memory (ignoring memory contention overhead) - in practical terms this means that even 32 bit color 1280x1024 Windows desktop display will have a negligable impact on memory bandwith.

Intel's releasing G965 to support conroe, but is it pin compatible with older chipsets?....
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post #340 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Consumers look at the ghz rating, thats all they know. This was the same argument going on for the G4 and G5.
We may know better, but most folks don't.

My Mac-using friends either do know better or simply don't known (or care) enough about hardware specs to be misleadingly influenced by them. When I've helped the latter make purchasing choices they're most interested in (and ask questions about) software-related issues that might apply to what they want to do with the system. Any hardware-related interest has to do with peripherals (e.g. will their printer work).

It's obvious that people making significant purchases owe it to themselves to be accurately informed about influential factors they're unsure of. It's challenging to make that a less intimating and time-consuming process with complex products. It's easiest (and often fun) helping someone who's actively looking for sufficient pre-purchase assistance but not everyone realizes they may need it. And not everyone is prepared or qualified to help even if they'd like to.

I don't have patience with anyone's helpless habit of stubbornly shirking responsibility for cluelessly presumptuous purchasing decisions and blaming someone else for their ineptness.

Oh, yeah, there's a Mac mini update...
post #341 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by sjk
My Mac-using friends either do know better or simply don't known (or care) enough about hardware specs to be misleadingly influenced by them. When I've helped the latter make purchasing choices they're most interested in (and ask questions about) software-related issues that might apply to what they want to do with the system. Any hardware-related interest has to do with peripherals (e.g. will their printer work).

It's obvious that people making significant purchases owe it to themselves to be accurately informed about influential factors they're unsure of. It's challenging to make that a less intimating and time-consuming process with complex products. It's easiest (and often fun) helping someone who's actively looking for sufficient pre-purchase assistance but not everyone realizes they may need it. And not everyone is prepared or qualified to help even if they'd like to.

I don't have patience with anyone's helpless habit of stubbornly shirking responsibility for cluelessly presumptuous purchasing decisions and blaming someone else for their ineptness.

Oh, yeah, there's a Mac mini update...

Sometimes I think this argument is overrated. I've been in Best Buy where people look at the price and what the machines come with, but don't really seem to look at how much memory is in the machine, how big the HD is, or what the speed of the machine is. The size and type of monitor is important, and so is whether it comes with a printer, so that they don't have to think about making the choice themselves.
post #342 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by bitemymac
Intel's releasing G965 to support conroe, but is it pin compatible with older chipsets?....

Excellent question and at the price differential between that and the 950 it makes you wonder which systems this chipset would be provided.

The one system no one gives two shits about having decent graphics, XServers, is the one system Apple should feel confident in having an integrated graphics system on-board and enabled.
post #343 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
I would expect Apple to use the new chipset once it becomes available.

mini, imac, no-way-in-hell mini-tower?
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post #344 of 782




..I didn't realize until now the beauty of the mac mini.. honestly what else do you people want apple to come up with better that this precious little piece or tech-art??? and now it's just even better!! I the the mac mini to be the center of your digital life in the not so distan future.. it already is for many people, but i think that soon will be for more.. imagine the future mini with blu-ray or hd-dvd.. wirelles keyboard & mouse... front row 2.0 + Leopard "awesome" hooked up to your "big ass" TV set & home theater, movies, music, you name it.. i see it as a family home center for everything you need, you name it..

but wait, what future am i talking about.. it's here today!!!

enjoy!
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post #345 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
Yes.

Person "A" is considering switching. All they need is the simple stuff as I outlined before. But they've seen a PC that costs $399. If a Mac Mini costing $499 existed, they may consider the $100 premium worth it for OS X, and iLife, and better physical appearance. But $399 vs $599? Apple looses.

A huge number of people are very price driven. I'm not suggesting for a moment that Apple should be trying to obtain 100% market share by offering every single type of machine currently offered by the myriad PC makers. But what I am asking is what the hell is wrong with giving customers the choice, rather than forcing features upon them that they may not want?

The 399 dollar crowd is not the crowd Apple wants. Razor thin if any margins, any profit will be killed by the numerous calls to tech support etc.. The 399 dollar PC buyers are the same folks who go to Buffet Halls and eat for 8 people. Who wants that business. I payed BTO for the Airport and bluetooth for the first mini so 599 is no price difference for me compared to last year.
post #346 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Zenga




..I didn't realize until now the beauty of the mac mini.. honestly what else do you people want apple to come up with better that this precious little piece or tech-art??? and now it's just even better!! I the the mac mini to be the center of your digital life in the not so distan future.. it already is for many people, but i think that soon will be for more.. imagine the future mini with blu-ray or hd-dvd.. wirelles keyboard & mouse... front row 2.0 + Leopard "awesome" hooked up to your "big ass" TV set & home theater, movies, music, you name it.. i see it as a family home center for everything you need, you name it..

but wait, what future am i talking about.. it's here today!!!

enjoy!

And I suppose the Integrated Intel Graphics are going to drive the HD video.
post #347 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by hugodrax
The 399 dollar crowd is not the crowd Apple wants. Razor thin if any margins, any profit will be killed by the numerous calls to tech support etc.

Apple could make a $499 computer with the same margin as the $599 one. When the Celeron 4xx comes out, they could do $449 or perhaps even $399 at the same margin.

Really I don't get the mini. Hardly anyone buys it because it is really, really small. They buy it because it is inexpensive. Secondary attractions are the fact that it's smaller than a normal tower (note that it needn't be really, really small to be smaller than a normal tower), and it is quiet.

If Apple had made the mini big enough to contain a full-size hard-drive and optical drive, they still could have made it run quiet and smaller than a normal tower. The component costs would also have been lower, and much better hard-drive options would be available. There would also be enough room for full-size RAM dimms.
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post #348 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnnySmith
And I suppose the Integrated Intel Graphics are going to drive the HD video.

That doesn't seem to be a problem. The cpu is decompressing the codec.

The 950 is designed for video. It can output 2500 x 1500. It has balls enough for that.

Someone tested the Solo 1.5GHz model, and it ran 720p without a problem.

I'd like to know how it does with 1080i as well. 1080p is out of the question for the Solo, but I think there's a good chance that the Duo can run it.

Not that there is any useful 1080p material, other than demo's, out there now.
post #349 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnnySmith
And I suppose the Integrated Intel Graphics are going to drive the HD video.

Picky, picky. Anyone with a $3000 super HD TV is not going to worry themselves with a Mac Mini, they'll just sit there in their massage chair or Home Theater with surround sound and leave the "computing" to the peasants.
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post #350 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Corey
I believe Apple CAN'T include a consumer word processor with Mac's anymore. There is no other logical reason why they don't. I think Steve had to bend over and take one for the team on this issue.

When you think of the amazing power and completeness of the iLife suite for most any consumer tasks, it makes no sense that Apple wouldn't include Pages in iLife even if it meant raising iLife's price a bit. Therefore I submit that it is a part of an Apple/Microsoft deal where Microsoft agrees to keep making Office for Mac and Apple agrees not to bundle iWork or try making an Office quality replacement suite.

In the end, if it is for work you buy Office. If you have Office at work and can afford it, you buy Office for home. Office is an institution so Apple needs it to stay available. It's like the QWERTY keyboard which will won't die in the US until decades after the US finally manages to go metric...

Corey

They include one and have for over a decade. They've decided not to update that program because it's not innovative enough for Steve Jobs. They'd rather you spend $70 on a cool suite that can do really cool presentations and page layout type things. However, most people just want to write letters, and make some lite spreadsheets and databases. That iWork isn't so good at. iWork would be perfect if it were a companion to an updated AppleWorks.
post #351 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by BenRoethig
They include one and have for over a decade. They've decided not to update that program because it's not innovative enough for Steve Jobs. They'd rather you spend $70 on a cool suite that can do really cool presentations and page layout type things. However, most people just want to write letters, and make some lite spreadsheets and databases. That iWork isn't so good at. iWork would be perfect if it were a companion to an updated AppleWorks.

Yeah. I don't know why Apple didn't just take the database and spreadsheet from Appleworks. with a bit of rework, they would have been fine for iWork. They had already been rewritten for OS X. These weren't bad programs either.
post #352 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Yeah. I don't know why Apple didn't just take the database and spreadsheet from Appleworks. with a bit of rework, they would have been fine for iWork. They had already been rewritten for OS X. These weren't bad programs either.

Like I've said before, I think Apple is so wrapped up in innovation that they've completely ignored practical considerations in some cases. If they cannot do it in a new and stylish way, they won't do it at all. The entire company has become more or less an R&D lab.
post #353 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by BenRoethig
Like I've said before, I think Apple is so wrapped up in innovation that they've completely ignored practical considerations in some cases. If they cannot do it in a new and stylish way, they won't do it at all. The entire company has become more or less an R&D lab.

I somewhat agree with this. I think practical consideration is still there in some cases. Just look at Spotlight and Dashboard. These have practical use and Apple incorporated into the OS ... granted it was in a new way, but they still have practical use.

Apple is still a computer company, though. It's both it's triumph and it's bane. We want Apple to make innovative products for our homes because we've come to believe over the years that Apple is better than just about everbody at creating sleek, easy to use items that combine power and art, and while you can build a PC box cheaper, it just isn't going to have Apple design ... or Mac OS X.

Before the iPod, what portable device did Apple have? The Newton ... yeah, I had one of those ... LOVED it, but it was for a niche market and it didn't sell terribly well. That's why I find all the talk of an Apple PDA somewhat interesting. We went down this road before and it didn't turn out so great, but like you noted, innovation is King at Apple, and if they can reinvent the PDA, you can be damn sure Steve will sell it. When the iPod came out, people moaned that Apple shouldn't take a nosedive into the MP3 player market, and now look ... the iPod has completely redefined the way we carry, play and think about digital media.

Being an R&D lab isn't a bad thing ... you get your product to market faster ... if it's a hit, then you make all the money and market before your competitors can hit back. If it flops, then you're out some money and take some hits on the boards and in the press. It's a double-edged sword. Right now people EXPECT Apple to innovate and lead digital media. It's one of the reasons everyone was pissed off at "paltry" announcements yesterday. A new computer and brand new product aren't exactly paltry, but Apple didn't release expected innovations, and took a hit on the streets for it. Thank God Ars reviewed the MBP yesterday or they'd still be fuming on the boards over there.

We're 2 months into 2006, and so far Apple is half-done with the transition. Despite people's opinion that the Hi-Fi will flop and the mini's "high price" and "sucky graphics" will kill entry level computing for Apple, I remain ever the optimist and expect Apple to do some pretty spectacular stuff between now and 2007.
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post #354 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Yeah. I don't know why Apple didn't just take the database and spreadsheet from Appleworks. with a bit of rework, they would have been fine for iWork. They had already been rewritten for OS X. These weren't bad programs either.

Beats the shit out of ms works. Not as full featured as ms office but is a lot easier to learn for the average user. I hope they integrate the spreadsheet and database in iworks. It would be a great suite. It wouldn't necessarily take users awy from ms works, but would give the averge user an alternative. I could then use ms works only when i HAVE to. I still hate word.
post #355 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by AgNuke1707
I somewhat agree with this. I think practical consideration is still there in some cases. Just look at Spotlight and Dashboard. These have practical use and Apple incorporated into the OS ... granted it was in a new way, but they still have practical use.

Apple is still a computer company, though. It's both it's triumph and it's bane. We want Apple to make innovative products for our homes because we've come to believe over the years that Apple is better than just about everbody at creating sleek, easy to use items that combine power and art, and while you can build a PC box cheaper, it just isn't going to have Apple design ... or Mac OS X.

Before the iPod, what portable device did Apple have? The Newton ... yeah, I had one of those ... LOVED it, but it was for a niche market and it didn't sell terribly well. That's why I find all the talk of an Apple PDA somewhat interesting. We went down this road before and it didn't turn out so great, but like you noted, innovation is King at Apple, and if they can reinvent the PDA, you can be damn sure Steve will sell it. When the iPod came out, people moaned that Apple shouldn't take a nosedive into the MP3 player market, and now look ... the iPod has completely redefined the way we carry, play and think about digital media.

Being an R&D lab isn't a bad thing ... you get your product to market faster ... if it's a hit, then you make all the money and market before your competitors can hit back. If it flops, then you're out some money and take some hits on the boards and in the press. It's a double-edged sword. Right now people EXPECT Apple to innovate and lead digital media. It's one of the reasons everyone was pissed off at "paltry" announcements yesterday. A new computer and brand new product aren't exactly paltry, but Apple didn't release expected innovations, and took a hit on the streets for it. Thank God Ars reviewed the MBP yesterday or they'd still be fuming on the boards over there.

We're 2 months into 2006, and so far Apple is half-done with the transition. Despite people's opinion that the Hi-Fi will flop and the mini's "high price" and "sucky graphics" will kill entry level computing for Apple, I remain ever the optimist and expect Apple to do some pretty spectacular stuff between now and 2007.

to a certain extent, I agree with both you and Ben.

I think they are trying, but don't want to use anything that's older. They want everything new.

What bothers me about this, in some areas, because basically, I don't see a problem (look at iLife!) with it all of the time, is that they sometimes ignore an important market that they own already!

We're talking about Appleworks. That's a perfect example. Many people don't realise this, but it has been a standard in schools almost from when it first came out. That's for both PC's and Macs, because it's (was?) cross platform. It ALWAYS recieved better reviews that MS Works, also cross platform (not now though, I think).

So, schools used that program as a standard. But Aple let it lapse over the past five years or so, and now it's fallen out of favor.
post #356 of 782
This whole thing is out of control. Nothing Apple could have presented would have satisfied everyone.

When the iPod 5G came out, people went bezerk complaining about the poor graphics, based on the specs. The actual graphics are drop-dead georgeous and the device is selling like hot-cakes.

When the new mini hits people's desks we will see how the integrated graphics work; I bet they will be more than satisfactory for the people who buy the mini because they are not geeks like us. If you aren't happy with IG on a mini, you have the option of a Quad with a Quadro FX 4500. Jane and Joe Average don't know the difference and probably couldn't care less.

The mini's price is also fine. If you want a 399 box, go get one. Based on specs, you can get something faster and cheaper. By the time you add in software on par with the mini's (there is none that I am aware of that is all made by the same maker and therefore interconnected and intuitive) you will surpass the mini's cost with these extra ghost costs. Check out this page to see what they have to say about the cost of the mini.

Lastly, never, never forget that warm fuzziness you feel knowing it's a Mac.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #357 of 782
Apple Store Japan is down... We'll Be Back Soon!

Something going on?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #358 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Bergermeister
This whole thing is out of control. Nothing Apple could have presented would have satisfied everyone.

...

Lastly, never, never forget that warm fuzziness you feel knowing it's a Mac.





That is all too true ... on both counts. Wasn't it the guy from ML yesterday saying that if Apple wants to keep bringing the press to their events, they'd better have something more? WTF? What else did you want ... sometimes its as if analysts get their predicitions straight from message boards and rumours. While I love AI as much as the next person, I don't consider it "concrete" proof of Apple doing something. More than a few people have forgotten this. Also, Steve ended his show by telling everyone they'd see them really soon. With less than a month before the 30th, I'm willing to bet an brand new and innovative products will be waiting until then. It's less than a month folks, so don't get all flustered about it.



Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
What bothers me about this, in some areas, because basically, I don't see a problem (look at iLife!) with it all of the time, is that they sometimes ignore an important market that they own already!

We're talking about Appleworks. That's a perfect example. Many people don't realise this, but it has been a standard in schools almost from when it first came out. That's for both PC's and Macs, because it's (was?) cross platform. It ALWAYS recieved better reviews that MS Works, also cross platform (not now though, I think).


I did always wonder why Apple abandoned AppleWorks. It's pretty much gone the way of Sherlock - but at least Sherlock got replaced by another OS feature (Dashboard). Sure, MS Office is pretty much standard ... I do have a copy of it and I'm forced to use it because all of my profs want digital copies of reports and research ... but they won't take PDF for whatever reason, so I'm forced to send .doc files. I find Office's interface very annoying. Everything is at your mouse tip, but hell, with all that crap on the screen there's barely enough room to type the damn paper. It's the one app that more than anything has made me want dual monitors. Maybe Apple should consider splitting iWork and AppleWorks into two distinct categories. Develop iWork to have spreadsheet and database functions as well in am iWork type way, and then revamp AW to make it look like it actually goes with OS X and update some of the features ... if they did that, I'd be hooked.

I think iWork was an attempt to reinnovate AW, but of course its incomplete, and right now, people are so interested in Apple hardware, that they could care less about productivity software ... and so Apple has put it on a really big backburner.
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post #359 of 782
Quote:
Originally posted by Bergermeister
Apple Store Japan is down... We'll Be Back Soon!

Something going on?

AppleStore US is fine ... maybe they're adding the new Mini and Hi-Fi to the store?
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post #360 of 782
They were already there because I checked the prices (74,000 yen and 99,000) for the mini.

Dunno...

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
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