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post #41 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Are you saying that there are no extremists in Christianity?

Not at all. Their most certainly are (as with Islam, Judaism, liberalism, conservativism, Democrats, Republicans, environmentalism, capitalism, etc.)

( I will say that often one man's "extremism" is another man's "reasonable expression of faith/opinion/belief/worldview/philosophy"...but I suppose that is a discussion for another thread. )

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Or just that Blair is not one of them?

I don't know...but the point is that your statement presupposed the answer to that question. In other words this wasn't (sincerely) a thread for debate (your loaded options in the first post further demonstrate that)...just to one state your own conclusions. In fact your post is thick with your own conclusions:

"Tony Blair has revealed that he took the decision to sacrifice the lives of British troops (and thousands of Iraqi civilians - though he didn't mention them, naturally) not on the basis of evidence of threat"

I don't see anywhere where he said that (or anything close to that). He simply said...(I am paraphrasing here lest anyone accuse me of mis-quoting) "ultimately, I believe, God will judge my decisions."
post #42 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
First step should be easy then. Show he IS an Evangelical Christian. Show it.

Ok, back to square one. Sigh. Same ground all over again, here goes:

1) He has been ordered to keep quiet about his faith. Fact.

Therefore one will not find statements made by himself. Perhaps that is enough for you to exonerate him but logically it does not hold.

2) His closest Christian friends are Evangelical. Cliff Richard, Bush and others.

3) He appoints Evangelicals to key posts (see links above).

4) His doctrines can be shown to have much more in common with right-wing contemporary thinkers (a common trait of the US Christian right) than with traditional theologians. In fact, it is the ideas of Fukuyama which mainly inform the basis of Blair's Christianity.

In the light of this evidence, the onus is on you in fact to show that Blair is a non-Evangelical Christian.

In the UK, the non-Evangelical traditional Churches (Catholic and Protestant) are uniformly anti-war in general and certainly were at the vanguard of anti-war protests during the run-up to Iraq.

Many of these traditional Churches also actively oppose Blair's political agenda so clearly there is some dissonance between the two theological stances.

Conversely, the Evangelical right - especially in the US (with whom Blair has a special affinity) - are generally pro-war and supportive of Bush.

Like I said. It's not rocket science.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #43 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Seg is sanely enough differentiating between those christians who talk to god and those who doesn´t. The quoted post was an answer to him.

Let me exand my answer to you.

Theoretical: Most people are not taking an intellectual approach to religion. THeir religious feelings are exactly that, feelings. Thats why most christians doesn´t talk to god, even if they (using your logic) should do so or abandon their faith.

Empirical: It flies against all obervations to claim that all, most or even a large part of christians speak to god in Europe of GB. I have the empirical evidence if you want it (its hardcopied, so no links, sorry)

so "Most Christians" according to your "empirical evidence", show that most Christians DONT pray to God, DONT wish to know God and DONT seek out Gods guidance and wisdom.

Ok, i'll accept that, Obviously Most of Christianity is far more false than even I thought.- Or MOST christians, are not really Christians at all, and just like the label they've attached to themselves.
post #44 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I don't see anywhere where he said that (or anything close to that). He simply said...(I am paraphrasing here lest anyone accuse me of mis-quoting) "ultimately, I believe, God will judge my decisions."

Ie - God will judge my decisions to be correct.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #45 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
so "Most Christians" according to your "empirical evidence", show that most Christians DONT pray to God, DONT wish to know God and DONT seek out Gods guidance and wisdom.

No. Most christians pray and probably "seeks out gods wisdom and wants to know god" (whatever actions that imply). But don´t talk to god.

When did you become the true master of true religious conduct?
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post #46 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ie - God will judge my decisions to be correct.

Well, now you are just making stuff up. Your presuppositions are showing through seg. Where did he say "God will judge my decisions to be correct."? Not in the posted article.
post #47 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
No. Most christians pray and probably "seeks out gods wisdom and wants to know god" (whatever actions that imply). But don´t talk to god.

When did you become the true master of true religious conduct?

Isn't praying talking to God though?

Surely the question is more whether God talks to them back?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #48 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Not according to people. WHile they find a great deal of truth in the bible hey would find talking to god boarderline or outright insane.

There is a great deal of truth in the bible, and it is entirely possible that you could NOT be a christian and still recognise that, just like there is truth in the Qu'ran, Avesta, Talmud etc, and still recognise it, but not be a subscriber to the religion.

However Blair and Bush, both claim to be Christians. And I'd be damn sure that if either of them IS genuine - and ever set foot in a church and said a prayer, or contemplated a prayer before they went to bed etc.. that they GENUINELY believed that they were talking TO God, and asking him for Guidandance in matters.

End of story. They are either Christians or Liars. Quite why we need to establish that to "say"* a prayer, you need to be an evangelical, is escaping me at the moment.
post #49 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok, back to square one. Sigh. Same ground all over again, here goes:

1) He has been ordered to keep quiet about his faith. Fact.

Gee...I wonder why? I think we should just assume that it is because he is trying to hide something.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
2) His closest Christian friends are Evangelical. Cliff Richard, Bush and others.

3) He appoints Evangelicals to key posts (see links above).

Hmmm...that sounds suspiciously like the guilt by association fallacy.
post #50 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
No. Most christians pray and probably "seeks out gods wisdom and wants to know god" (whatever actions that imply). But don´t talk to god.

Then what IS Prayer, if it is not direct contact talking with God?

Are we now to think that God only listens to a few Prayers each day of the billions that are said to him. What criteria does God use to filter out the prayers that he does not want to listen too? Can you earn more receptive ears of God by certain deeds or sacrifice?

All important stuff. Are you telling Cuilla that God might not want to listen to his prayers and he has been talking only to himself?
post #51 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok, back to square one. Sigh. Same ground all over again, here goes:

1) He has been ordered to keep quiet about his faith. Fact.

Therefore one will not find statements made by himself. Perhaps that is enough for you to exonerate him but logically it does not hold.

2) His closest Christian friends are Evangelical. Cliff Richard, Bush and others.

3) He appoints Evangelicals to key posts (see links above).

4) His doctrines can be shown to have much more in common with right-wing contemporary thinkers (a common trait of the US Christian right) than with traditional theologians. In fact, it is the ideas of Fukuyama which mainly inform the basis of Blair's Christianity.

In the light of this evidence, the onus is on you in fact to show that Blair is a non-Evangelical Christian.

In the UK, the non-Evangelical traditional Churches (Catholic and Protestant) are uniformly anti-war in general and certainly were at the vanguard of anti-war protests during the run-up to Iraq.

Many of these traditional Churches also actively oppose Blair's political agenda so clearly there is some dissonance between the two theological stances.

Conversely, the Evangelical right - especially in the US (with whom Blair has a special affinity) - are generally pro-war and supportive of Bush.

Like I said. It's not rocket science.

Guilty by association then? [edit: Chris beat me to it ]

Our prime decided to go to war, he is buddy-buddy with Bush and Blair, He has appointed very religious figures to post on our "commity of ethical matters" and he isn not by any means talking to god. He is not religious in any way. And not talking about religous matters? I think thats a reasonable advise for ANY leaders of a labour party in Europe. REligion doesn´t sell on the left side of the fence here.

And what do Fukuyama and the neocons have to do with this issue? Fukuyama opposed the Iraq war AFAIK and PNAC (which is his connection to the neoconservative movement) is Machiavellian, not religious inspired. Not everything in what we call the extreme right is motivated by the same.
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post #52 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Guilty by association then?

Our prime decided to go to war, he is buddy-buddy with Bush and Blair, He has appointed very religious figures to post on our "commity of ethical matters" and he isn not by any means talking to god. He is not religious in any way. And not talking about religous matters? I think thats a reasonable advise for ANY leaders of a labour party in Europe. REligion doesn´t sell on the left side of the fence here.

And what do Fukuyama and the neocons have to do with this issue? Fukuyama opposed the Iraq war AFAIK and PNAC (which is his connection to the neoconservative movement) is Machiavellian, not religious inspired. Not everything in what we call the extreme right is motivated by the same.

But Blair claims to believe in God, Blair claims that God will judge him.

All he is doing here is claiming God will judge me to be correct, you cant argue with God, so shut up or else he would not have even said anything.

He most certainly not implying "God will judge me to be incorrect, and for my punishment I will spend an eternity of miserable suffering", or else he would soon find that he wouldn't be appealing to God, because the idea of God's punishment would be incompatible with his desire to feel he acted accordingly.
post #53 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Then what IS Prayer, if it is not direct contact talking with God?

Are we now to think that God only listens to a few Prayers each day of the billions that are said to him. What criteria does God use to filter out the prayers that he does not want to listen too? Can you earn more receptive ears of God by certain deeds or sacrifice?

All important stuff. Are you telling Cuilla that God might not want to listen to his prayers and he has been talking only to himself?

Are we having a teological or sociological discussion? I am discussion sociology, what people really believes in, not what they ought to believe because that is the relevant one to have for the issue on hand.

You are still trying to use logic. Religion is not about logic for most people but about feelings, thats an empirical fact. Take your logic holes up with the christians.
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post #54 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
But Blair claims to believe in God, Blair claims that God will judge him.

eh perhaps, so? We are not discussing if Blair is religious or not. We are discussing if God speaks to him. Are you claiming that your four point is the actions of either a atheistic or a Christian Evangelical person, not someone in between?

Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
All he is doing here is claiming God will judge me to be correct, you cant argue with God, so shut up or else he would not have even said anything.

You are letting your argument slide. Thats not at all what he said. There is a lot of other ways it could be read.

Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
He most certainly not implying "God will judge me to be incorrect, and for my punishment I will spend an eternity of miserable suffering", or else he would soon find that he wouldn't be appealing to God, because the idea of God's punishment would be incompatible with his desire to feel he acted accordingly.

Even more sliding....
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post #55 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders


You are still trying to use logic. Religion is not about logic for most people but about feelings, thats an empirical fact. Take your logic holes up with the christians.

I quite agree that religion is not about logic, and most def is to do with feelings.

I thought we were trying to establish that Tony (or Bush) is talking to God. If they are Christians, as they both claim, then they believe that they ARE talking to God, and God IS guiding them.

Whether thats what is really happening, is the key. Personally I know that no-one has ever received guidance from a God as described by any religious book ever written, because that would mean talking to and receiving a reply from the sun, moon, or a volcano etc. But that isn't the point.

Blair and Bush both believe they are talking to God, and receiving direction by him, obviously, by claiming to be Christians, this is utter tosh, because Volcanoes and Suns don't listen or talk. So either they are incrediblygulliblesonsofbitches, or just downright liars. I suspect the latter.

So we have the problem that the very people we should be able to trust the most, are the very ones who are misleading us the most, and using a supposed supernatural force to buy off/silence the critisism of most of the people, who don't really understand the matter fully.
post #56 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
If they are Christians, as they both claim, then they believe that they ARE talking to God, and God IS guiding them.

Again untrue. You are trying to pin down what christianity is. Christianity is a lot of things. Believing that you can talk to god, especially in a way that he can give you intructions, is something only a slim portion of christians believe in. Even "die hard" lutheranism in scandinavia doesn´t see things that way. Calvinism doesn´t see it that way. Bush probably see it that way, judged on his own statements. With Blair we have no way of knowing it and going from the religious sentiments of the average UK Christian he probably doesn´t.
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post #57 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Again untrue. You are trying to pin down what christianity is. Christianity is a lot of things. Believing that you can talk to god, especially in a way that he can give you intructions, is something only a slim portion of christians believe in. Even "die hard" lutheranism in scandinavia doesn´t see things that way. Calvinism doesn´t see it that way. Bush probably see it that way, judged on his own statements. With Blair we have no way of knowing it and going from the religious sentiments of the average UK Christian he probably doesn´t.

Claiming to be a Christian and then denying you can talk to God and not receive instruction or guidance is utter tosh.

That isn't Christianity. That is just applying a label to yourself for a selfish gain, and probably deception.

Christ himself taught people to Pray, how to communicate with God. Calling yourself a Christian and then denying Christ's teaching.....that would probably make you a Paul.
post #58 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Claiming to be a Christian and then denying you can talk to God and not receive instruction or guidance is utter tosh.

That isn't Christianity. That is just applying a label to yourself for a selfish gain, and probably deception.

Christ himself taught people how to Pray, how to communicate with God. Calling yourself a Christian and then denying Christ's teaching.....that would probably make you a Paul.

Whatever.

Fundamentalism and Pharisaism for another thread
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post #59 of 114
I have some thoughts about Sego's innate fear of Evangelical Christians, but the Lord hasn't told me whether I can share them yet.
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post #60 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
All he is doing here is claiming God will judge me to be correct, you cant argue with God, so shut up or else he would not have even said anything.

You are inferring that.
post #61 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
You are inferring that.

People do not appeal to God's authority if they think God is going to judge them foolish and send them to hell. Period.
post #62 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
People do not appeal to God's authority if they think God is going to judge them foolish and send them to hell. Period.

Wrong. Things that cannot be objectively judged by society (like going to war) is a perfect candidate for godly judgement.
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post #63 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Wrong. Things that cannot be objectively judged by man (like going to war) is a perfect candidate for godly judgement.

But you wouldn't ask for, or invoke a godly judgement, with all the potential for serious bad-shit punishment if you had the slightest inclination that God would judge you unfavourably.

So is it that Blair is thumbing his nose to man/society's judgement of his character, and telling us that our opinions don't matter, because only God can decide?

Or is it that Blair doesn't believe in God, and knows that there is no consequence of his actions, and is invoking an imaginary character to his side he knows many people have been told not to question.
post #64 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
But you wouldn't ask for, or invoke a godly judgement, with all the potential for serious bad-shit punishment if you had the slightest inclination that God would judge you unfavourably.

Is that how your relationship to god should be? Based on fear?

Blair has faith in he did the right thing and he hopes that thats the view of the lord. He...hmmm... cherish that thought (okay the last one isn´t correct. I just couldn´t work in charity).

Do you know the parable about the two talents? What would surely have happened to Blair if he hadn´t reacted in some way due to fear in fear of god?
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post #65 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
So is it that Blair is thumbing his nose to man/society's judgement of his character, and telling us that our opinions don't matter, because only God can decide?

Our opinions matter. But they will always be subjective, even Blairs (this I agree with). But there is a higher reason, that of god, and that is objective and can judge all actions (this I don´t agree with)
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post #66 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Is that how your relationship to god should be? Based on fear?

Blair has faith in he did the right thing and he hopes that thats the view of the lord. He...hmmm... cherish that thought (okay the last one isn´t correct. I just couldn´t work in charity).

Do you know the parable about the two talents? What would surely have happened to Blair if he hadn´t reacted in some way due to fear in fear of god?

Well thats juust great, lets just invade another country, get a hundred thousand innocent people killed, put the world on an economic knife edge, lest the lord think we are lazy and slothful.
post #67 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Well thats juust great, lets just invade another country, get a hundred thousand innocent people killed, put the world on an economic knife edge, lest the lord think we are lazy and slothful.

Whats wrong with that? Are you implying Blair is crazy if this was his thoughts? More crazy than the claim he is hearing voices inside his head?
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post #68 of 114
Blair (and this all goes for Bush as well) is a Christian for sure, but by label and affiliation to a church, rather than by the decisions he makes and actions he takes that affect others. These type of 'faithful' are 1000 a penny these days, namely those folks who cherrypick the aspects of the faith are convenient to the status and lifetyle to which they are accustomed, while quietly ignoring the awkward stuff.

If he is diligent, the Christian God will be merciful to him. All that is required of him before death is to renounce his sins and recommit his life to Jesus; the slate will then be wiped clean. Up until that time, he knows he is quite free to authorize wholesale death and misery overseas, knowing that his sins will eventually be forgiven.

I'm happy for him that he's a Christian. If he were a Hindu for example, the balance on his karma would be crushingly in the red. Imagine having to work all that off in future lives? Yikes.

(This was for all religious literalists out there.. I'm an agnostic btw).

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post #69 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Whats wrong with that? Are you implying Blair is crazy if this was his thoughts? More crazy than the claim he is hearing voices inside his head?

Let me get this right before I answer, are you implying that if you are a Christian, its ok to do any crazy shit you want as long as you appear to be acting in accordance with Gods will or teaching?

Is that what you're asking?
post #70 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo


If he is diligent, the Christian God will be merciful to him. All that is required of him before death is to renounce his sins and recommit his life to Jesus; the slate will then be wiped clean. Up until that time, he knows he is quite free to authorize wholesale death and misery overseas, knowing that his sins will eventually be forgiven.



I see Constantine resurrected as Blair.
post #71 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
But you wouldn't ask for, or invoke a godly judgement, with all the potential for serious bad-shit punishment if you had the slightest inclination that God would judge you unfavourably.

But if you believe there is a God...and you believe that He will judge your actions...then the statement is one of "fact" to him. He is not asking to be judged, merely stating his belief that he will be. Everything else (about how God will judge his actions) is inference at this point.

EDIT:
P.S. And...if he is assuming that God will judges his actions to be right...what exactly is wrong with that? If you disagree, so be it. You may be right...or...he may be right. Likely none of us will know until it is too late to debate about it.

EDIT 2:
If he is assuming that God will judge his actions favorably...do you disagree with that belief? Do you believe that God will judge his actions unfavorably?
post #72 of 114
post #73 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
But if you believe there is a God...and you believe that He will judge your actions...then the statement is one of "fact" to him. He is not asking to be judged, merely stating his belief that he will be. Everything else (about how God will judge his actions) is inference at this point.

EDIT:
P.S. And...if he is assuming that God will judges his actions to be right...what exactly is wrong with that? If you disagree, so be it. You may be right...or...he may be right. Likely none of us will know until it is too late to debate about it.

EDIT 2:
If he is assuming that God will judge his actions favorably...do you disagree with that belief? Do you believe that God will judge his actions unfavorably?

What's the point in praying to God for guidance if He never actually tells you what He thinks?

Anyway, it's cool. Tony's going to go to Hell if there is one.
post #74 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
What's the point in praying to God for guidance if He never actually tells you what He thinks?

If he is catholic shouldn´t it be Blair->god->the church->Blair or even Blair->the church->god->the church->Blair?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Anyway, it's cool. Tony's going to go to Hell if there is one.

Finally something I agree with
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post #75 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
A controversial chain of schools teaching Biblical "creationism" has been given Tony Blair's personal support despite serious doubts raised by parents and teachers, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.

Mr Blair, said to be the most religious Prime Minister since Gladstone, has backed the millionaire car dealer Sir Peter Vardy in his attempt to take over seven comprehensives and turn them into Christian Academies promoting Old Testament views of the world's creation. This includes the claim that it was made in six days, 10,000 years ago. Two of Sir Peter's schools are open already, in Gateshead and Middlesbrough, and a third is under construction in Doncaster.

Mr Blair, a committed Christian, has presided over an extraordinary growth in the number of faith schools, with 80 new Church of England secondaries now running or in the pipeline.

He personally opened King's Academy in Middlesbrough, run by Sir Peter, an Evangelical Christian. When Emmanuel College in Gateshead, the first Vardy school, came under attack for teaching creationism, Mr Blair sent Andrew Adonis, one of his most senior policy advisers, to smooth the issue over.

In 2001, Mr Blair's government approved a knighthood for Sir Peter, head of the Reg Vardy car firm, for services to business and education.

The IoS can disclose that the links between the two men go back even further. They attended the same primary, the Chorister School, Durham, and Mr Blair was a classmate of Mr Vardy's younger brother, John. Mr Blair's constituency is, coincidentally, in Sedgefield, while Sir Peter is based in nearby Sunderland.

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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #76 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Wouldn't it be utterly foolish to believe that someone who is willing to be judged by God for their actions, would not have asked God for guidance on the decision in the first place?

If God had told Blair (and Bush) not to invade Iraq, and they still did it......well.

So we can deduce that God DID tell Blair (and Bush) to invade Iraq.

So the question is, there must be a reason why Iraq is going so badly- and it must be Gods will, OR Blair and Bush were not ever talking to God in the first place, and are using an appeal to a higher authority to justify (which apparently "believers in God"/we -are not allowed to question) their own evilness/stupidity/foolishness.

And when did a volcano ever give an answer anyway?

I'm not sure you really understand how people of faith think about this. It may not be that "God told Bush and Blair" to invade Iraq. Sure, they may have prayed for guidance. But most Christians believe that the decisions we make our still our own free will. Guidance can take many forms for a Christian...perhaps even a gut reaction or general feeling could be considered guidance. That is very different from some mystical voice saying "invade Iraq."

As for how Iraq is going now...there may very well be a reason for it that will become apparent later. I think Blair's statement should be taken at face value. He knows things look bad there, but believes that in the end, his creator will judge him for launching an invasion. By inference, it seems that he believes he wil be judged to have done the right thing.
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post #77 of 114
What is the point, then, of asking god for guidance?

Every human gets a gut feeling about decisions they need to make, why invent a middle deity?
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post #78 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Link

And?
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post #79 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
And?

I can't think for you Anders (well, I could but you wouldn't like the process probably ) - all I can do is keep submitting the evidence.

How you dodge it and downplay it is entirely up to you.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #80 of 114
Someone is endorsing Blair doesn´t make him equal to them. I think communists would endorse democrats and nazists republicans if it came to that.

Its getting more and more evident that you cannot produce any proof that say "Blair is a Evangelical Christian" or that he speaks to god, just indicatives. And as you see from Hassans links it is possible to find indicative that shows the opposite.

Even if you should find evidence for your theory the link in your first post still only show he is christian, which we already knew. It still don´t warrant the title.

Why don´t you just admit you stretched the truth with you initial post? It would make you more believable in future discussions.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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