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Blair: God told me to do it - Page 3

post #81 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
And?

Perhaps the world has decended so far into stupidity that we should just feed them more stupidity. When you have an agenda that makes a virtue out of being stupid, the best cure might be to add to the stupidity.

Maybe Creationism is like a fat kid, you can try to keep him from the cakes, but the problem never really goes away, he always sneaks a cake here and there.

Why not feed the fat kid so much cake he pukes on his own greed, and keep feeding him even when he pukes, eventually he'll kill himself.

As it is with Creationism. Endorse creationism and keep feeding it, eventually it will puke on its own deceit.
post #82 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Someone is endorsing Blair doesn´t make him equal to them. I think communists would endorse democrats and nazists republicans if it came to that.

Its getting more and more evident that you cannot produce any proof that say "Blair is a Evangelical Christian" or that he speaks to god, just indicatives. And as you see from Hassans links it is possible to find indicative that shows the opposite.

Even if you should find evidence for your theory the link in your first post still only show he is christian, which we already knew. It still don´t warrant the title.

Why don´t you just admit you stretched the truth with you initial post? It would make you more believable in future discussions.

Completely agree. The post title is deceptive.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #83 of 114
How anybody can acknowledge that Bush, Blair and other of that ilk are bona fide "Christians" is amazing, and sad. How did the teachings of Jesus get reinterpreted to include the approval of wholesale greed, mass murder, preemptive warfare, detentions without trial, taking from the poor to give to the rich, state-sanctioned killings, pollution (as opposed to responsible stewardship) of the planet, development of weapons of mass destruction and the rest of all the stuff that comes from a "state of absolute disconnection with the creator"?

Bush, Blair and like company are not Christians. They are fakes, of the variety that Christians have been warned about.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #84 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Why don´t you just admit you stretched the truth with you initial post? It would make you more believable in future discussions.

To tell you the truth I just wanted some conversation - how many replies did it get? 40?

If I had done it 'reasonably' - and God knows I want to - there would probably be none.

I hope I've discussed rationally subsequently but sometimes here the initial hyperbole is totally necessary.

I am never 'believable' anyway. I can debate with the best of you - ridiculous thread title gets replies, sane one gets nothing. Either way no deep debate is engaged in. Fair enough really - and who cares anyway?

Sad but true.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #85 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
...

Mark, your logic reminds me of this joke...

Quote:
Redneck joke... logic...

Two rednecks decided they weren't going anywhere in life, and thought they should go to college to get ahead.

The first redneck went in to see the counselor, who told him to take Math, History, and Logic.

"What's Logic?" the first redneck asked. The professor answered by saying, "Let me give you an example. Do you own a weed eater?" "I sure do." said the first redneck.

"Then I can assume, using logic, that you have a yard," replied the professor.

"That's real good!" said the redneck.

The professor continued, "Logic will also tell me that since you have a yard, you also own a house."

Impressed, the redneck said, "Amazin!"

"And since you own a house, logic dictates that you have a wife," continued the professor.

"That's Betty Mae! This is incredible!" The redneck is obviously catching on.

"Finally, since you have a wife, logically I can assume that you are heterosexual," said the professor.

"You're absolutely right!" exclaimed the redneck. "Why that's the most fascinatin' thing I ever heard! I cain't wait to take that logic class!!"

The redneck, proud of the new world opening up to him, walked back into the hallway, where his friend was still waiting.

"So what classes are ya takin'?" asked the friend.

"Math, History, and Logic!" replied the first redneck.

"What in tarnation is logic???" asked his friend.

"Let me give you an example. Do ya own a weed eater?" asked the first redneck.

"No," his friend replied.

"You're QUEER, ain't ya?"
post #86 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
How anybody can acknowledge that Bush, Blair and other of that ilk are bona fide "Christians" is amazing, and sad. How did the teachings of Jesus get reinterpreted to include the approval of wholesale greed, mass murder, preemptive warfare, detentions without trial, taking from the poor to give to the rich, state-sanctioned killings, pollution (as opposed to responsible stewardship) of the planet, development of weapons of mass destruction and the rest of all the stuff that comes from a "state of absolute disconnection with the creator"?

Bush, Blair and like company are not Christians. They are fakes, of the variety that Christians have been warned about.

You're a real piece of work.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #87 of 114
An oldie but a goodie. Bush is no more a Christian than people in the mafia are.
post #88 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
An oldie but a goodie. Bush is no more a Christian than people in the mafia are.

Hey...there's a nice balanced article repleat with facts!
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #89 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
You're a real piece of work.

Obviously a sarcastic response... is there any chance of a rebuttal, so we can all share in your great wisdom?

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #90 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Hey...there's a nice balanced article repleat with facts!

Replete.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Replete.

Thanks. My mistake.



sammi jo, I believe you asked for a rebuttal. As much as it pains me to even endulge your lunacy, here is that rebuttal:

Quote:
How anybody can acknowledge that Bush, Blair and other of that ilk are bona fide "Christians" is amazing, and sad. How did the teachings of Jesus get reinterpreted to include the approval of wholesale greed, mass murder, preemptive warfare, detentions without trial, taking from the poor to give to the rich, state-sanctioned killings, pollution (as opposed to responsible stewardship) of the planet, development of weapons of mass destruction and the rest of all the stuff that comes from a "state of absolute disconnection with the creator"?

Bush, Blair and like company are not Christians. They are fakes, of the variety that Christians have been warned about.

1. Approval of wholesale greed: I don't even know what this is referring to. Bush and Blair think greed is good? They are personally greedy?

2. Mass Murder: Of whom? Civilians die in war. That's always been the case. It doesn't make it murder....particularly if there were substantial efforts made to save innocent life.

3. Preemptive warfare: Is there no case where you would support a preemptive war? Why is automatically a negative term?

4. State-sanctioned killings: Again, please clarify. The death penalty...is this where you are going? Many Christians support it, but I assume you know that. I guess they're not "real Christians" either.

5. Pollution: Wait...hold on. Are you claiming that Bush and Blair like and encourage pollution? What is that position based on....the fact that a few regulations have been relaxed and that we won't ratify Kyoto? What do you say about nations like China and India, who are apparently exempt from all duties of keeping the earth unpolluted? What, specifically should we do to combat pollution? Moreover, how is pollution worse now then when Bush took office?

6. WMD: We've had WMD since WWI. Are you truly blaming the development of WMD on Bush and Blair? Are you suggesting that we abandon our nuclear program? Has any other President since WWI been a Christian? Apparently not.

The reason you did not get a serious rebuttal the first time is that it's hard to take you seriously. You attribute nothing but the most evil and sinister motives to these men, which is a sign of utter and complete polarization.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #92 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
sammi jo, I believe you asked for a rebuttal. As much as it pains me to even endulge your lunacy, here is that rebuttal:

Bad mistake. None of your points are anywhere near a rebuttal - in fact, they confirm Sammi Jo's argument:

Quote:
1. Approval of wholesale greed: I don't even know what this is referring to. Bush and Blair think greed is good? They are personally greedy?

Yes, both. Corporate greed is Institutionalized under both regimes. They may not think 'Greed is good' as such but that does not mean they do not indulge in greed - it merely means they are hypocrites.

There are literally hundreds of examples. Here are a few from the Blair canon:

The charity that employed Mrs Blair to speak and could not give any money to their cause because her fee which she refused to donate or alter was so high.

The habit of the Blairs to never pay for their accommodation and holidays but instead stay rent free at rich friend's houses.

The notorious scam whereby the Blairs falsely acquired and hid rental properties, were discovered and let-off.

All greed.

Quote:
2. Mass Murder: Of whom? Civilians die in war. That's always been the case. It doesn't make it murder....particularly if there were substantial efforts made to save innocent life.

Well, no such 'substantial effort' is really made. That's just pap for the prols back home. And murder is a daily occurrence in war.

But we are talking about Christian theology and whether Blair and Bush are Christians - keep within the framework. I put it to you that the judge of a Christian should be the degree to which they adhere (or differ) from the teachings of Christ.

The teachings of Christ are clearly against murder.

Quote:
3. Preemptive warfare: Is there no case where you would support a preemptive war? Why is automatically a negative term?

What has this got to do with anything?

Can't speak for Sammi Jo but imo it is not a question of supporting it or not. It is more a question of seeing the reality of the situation: there are some states that want to live in peace and defend themselves if attacked - and there are others who want to attack: The rabid mad dogs of the international community who invade, kill and torture just because they can. It's what they do and it's what they are.

Quote:
4. State-sanctioned killings: Again, please clarify. The death penalty...is this where you are going? Many Christians support it, but I assume you know that. I guess they're not "real Christians" either.

Yep not real Christians. Or if they are me and Sammi Jo are staunch Republicans. French ones.

How do I know? Simple, I asked Jesus Christ:

You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But now I tell you: do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, let him slap your left cheek too. And if someone takes you to court to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. And if one of the occupation troops forces you to carry his pack one kilometre, carry it two kilometres.

And again:

You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder" and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court.

Quote:
5. Pollution: Wait...hold on. Are you claiming that Bush and Blair like and encourage pollution? What is that position based on....the fact that a few regulations have been relaxed and that we won't ratify Kyoto? What do you say about nations like China and India, who are apparently exempt from all duties of keeping the earth unpolluted? What, specifically should we do to combat pollution? Moreover, how is pollution worse now then when Bush took office?

Business. Greed.

They do not 'like' pollution but their greed leads them to encourage it for sure. they justify it afterwards and people like you give them carte blanche but it revolves just the same.

Quote:
6. WMD: We've had WMD since WWI. Are you truly blaming the development of WMD on Bush and Blair? Are you suggesting that we abandon our nuclear program? Has any other President since WWI been a Christian? Apparently not.

Probably not.

Quote:
The reason you did not get a serious rebuttal the first time is that it's hard to take you seriously. You attribute nothing but the most evil and sinister motives to these men, which is a sign of utter and complete polarization. [/B]

What is the reason we didn't get a serious rebuttal the second time?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #93 of 114
Great post Seg!
post #94 of 114
ZING!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
Great post Seg!



Seg: Blair talks to god.

Voice of Reason: Hmm. You don´t seem to be able to prove it.

Seg: Yes I am. Exhibit A: He is christian and exhibit B: His gardener wears jeans. Thats all the proof you need.

Voice of Reason: That doesn´t really show you anything but he is chistian because he is christian.

Seg: [mumbles]

3rd person: No. Blair is NOT christian. The signs are his actions. They are not Jesus-like.

Seg: THATS IT. Blair is NOT christian. Its all a cover up AND a conspiracy (since Bush is in on all this fake christian posing).

So Blair speaks to god AND is not christian, huh? WOuldn´t it just be a lot easier to say that everything that can be said to be bad, Blair is? Just make a long list of synonyms to bad (Rotten fruit, Michael Jackson, cartoons, Reagan, etc) and get it over once for all?

Blair is rotten fruit
Blair is a cartoon
Blair is Michael Jackson
Blair is Reagan.
etc
etc

"Honey. I ran over the cat with the car". "Dang, thats just too Blair."
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders


Seg: Blair talks to god.

Voice of Reason: Hmm. You don´t seem to be able to prove it.

Seg: Yes I am. Exhibit A: He is christian and exhibit B: His gardener wears jeans. Thats all the proof you need.

Voice of Reason: That doesn´t really show you anything but he is chistian because he is christian.

Seg: [mumbles]

3rd person: No. Blair is NOT christian. The signs are his actions. They are not Jesus-like.

Seg: THATS IT. Blair is NOT christian. Its all a cover up AND a conspiracy (since Bush is in on all this fake christian posing).

So Blair speaks to god AND is not christian, huh? WOuldn´t it just be a lot easier to say that everything that can be said to be bad, Blair is? Just make a long list of synonyms to bad (Rotten fruit, Michael Jackson, cartoons, Reagan, etc) and get it over once for all?

Blair is rotten fruit
Blair is a cartoon
Blair is Michael Jackson
Blair is Reagan.
etc
etc

"Honey. I ran over the cat with the car". "Dang, thats just too Blair."

Gawd. Yikes.

OK... I'm an agnostic (verging on atheist).. but I do have a Bible with Jesus' words from the 4 Gospels highlighted in red, and I have some comprehension of the English language (more than some, less than others). Provided the translations are accurate (which is another 20 threads worth), and "the Jesus character" existed in reality and history as portayed in the New testament... then its plain as daylight where he (Jesus) was coming from in a moral, spiritual, political and social context. Neither "Law-of-the-Jungle" style capitalism, nor attacking other nations for fraudulent "reasons" are Christian tenets, not by the wildest hallucinations of the most fevered imaginations.

Can anyone who honestly believes that Bush/Blair etc are genuine Christians, (ie, as taught by Jesus) provide any evidence to support that viewpoint?

So far in this thread, nothing has been forthcoming. The actions of these two men consistently suggest they have no respect for Jesus' teachings, but rather, use the "Christian" label as a vehicle to misrepresent, and exert power over the faithful using "spiritual blackmail", which, as history painfully informs us, is all too easily done. Look at the likes of Bakker, Robertson, Hinn, Phelps, and a bunch of other fakes... these folk are some of the most influential people in US "Christianity"... but are demonstrable frauds and charlatans who are in the game for a variety of unChristian purposes (materialism, power, greed, hate, etc). There is squat in the teachings of Jesus to suggest that he would approve of these peoples' methods and actions, as well as the policies put forward by Bush, Blair etc. And to preempt, it is impossible to divorce the person from the politician.... that argument is "as thin as soup made from the shadow of a pigeon which has starved to death".

Furthermore, the indisputable fact that both Bush and Blair regularly attend an allegedly Christian church cannot be construed as meaningful evidence that they are real Christians.

Still waiting, probably in vain....
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #97 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
So far in this thread, nothing has been forthcoming.

Well...given how it started...I guess that seems only appropriate.

Regarding this subject of who is and isn't a "Christian"...let's say this:

1. Basic Christian theology states that someone that accepts (and publicly professes) Jesus Christ as the son of God, as lord and savior of their life is a Christian. (NOTE: There is a bit more to this...like...well...accepting the need for a savior, etc. but that's kind of implied)

2. In all truth...no one really knows this about anyone else except that person themselves and God.

3. Someone's actions and consistency with the teachings of the Bible can be a barometer...but, ultimately, these are not the measure.

4. I think it is fair and reasonable to state an opinion...but to state with such emphatic certainty that another person is not a Christian is the height of arrogance.
post #98 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well...given how it started...I guess that seems only appropriate.

Regarding this subject of who is and isn't a "Christian"...let's say this:

1. Basic Christian theology states that someone that accepts (and publicly professes) Jesus Christ as the son of God, as lord and savior of their life is a Christian. (NOTE: There is a bit more to this...like...well...accepting the need for a savior, etc. but that's kind of implied)

This sounds too much a cop out. How about all these characters who take advantage of the pror knowledge that all will be fine when they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and all of their sins get forgiven, despite their having behaved like jerks throughout their lives?

Quote:
2. In all truth...no one really knows this about anyone else except that person themselves and God.

Acknowledged. So the only judge of whether someone is a true "Christian" is God and God alone. I guess that is where "Judge not lest ye be judged" comes from. So,can a Christian muddle through life in a most "un-Christlike way", and still be accepted by his church? When God judges a person, do their actions throughout their life get taken into consideration if they decide to "give themselves to Jesus" just before they die?

Quote:
3. Someone's actions and consistency with the teachings of the Bible can be a barometer...but, ultimately, these are not the measure.

Doesn't this depend on what teachings within the Bible one includes as relevant? Who determines what is relevant, and what isn't, and why? What are the parameters here? The Bible is most inconsistent in many places, for example take these small examples (amongst many): The 6th Commandment states (archaic English version) "Thou shalt not kill", yet in Leviticus 20:10 it says, "If a man commits adultery, both the adulterer and adulteress shall be put to death." (!?) Or again in Leviticus (21:7) that "you shall not marry a woman divorced from her husband." How many Christians are divorcees? Who decided that a divorcee could attend a church, and an adulterer shouldn't be put to death? These passages came from the same place so widely quoted in modern US evangelical 'Christianity' which expends huge amounts of energy (which looks decidely hate-motivated at times) in castigating gays and lesbians. Why are the dual standards OK, and should Christians regard all parts of the Bible with equal relevancy, or should the words of Jesus assume priority here?

Quote:
4. I think it is fair and reasonable to state an opinion...but to state with such emphatic certainty that another person is not a Christian is the height of arrogance.

Thats fair. I am certainly not trying to come across as arrogant. Its just that it seems that there is a whole lot of "excess baggage" associated with Christianity, to the point that the original message(s) delivered by Jesus have been obscured in a cloud of theological and ecclesiastical fog.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #99 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
1. Basic Christian theology states that someone that accepts (and publicly professes) Jesus Christ as the son of God, as lord and savior of their life is a Christian. (NOTE: There is a bit more to this...like...well...accepting the need for a savior, etc. but that's kind of implied)

Yes - according to basic Christian theology.

Basic Christian theology however was not invented by Jesus Christ and in some places the two are in conflict.

Personally I prefer the teachings of Jesus to theology and in this case his teachings were nothing like what you (or basic Christian theology) describes. Quite simply he says: 'one must be born-again'. No acceptance of dogma, no public assertions: simply born again.

And of course he goes on to describe this state and the complete change of character it entails. Strangely this change would preclude many of the character traits we are discussing - greed and the desire to murder for example.

Quote:
2. In all truth...no one really knows this about anyone else except that person themselves and God.

Disagree. No-one can judge except God but that does not mean we cannot describe. Again, we have the words of someone called Jesus - maybe he wasn't a Christian but I'm going to quote him again: by their fruits you shall know them.

Quote:
3. Someone's actions and consistency with the teachings of the Bible can be a barometer...but, ultimately, these are not the measure.

Well, that's your opinion maybe. Jesus taught something different and the early Christians believed something different. Fruits again:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galations 5:22-23


Not only a list against which we can check off the fruits that we would know someone by, but a list which many of today's so-called Christians would demonstrably fall short of.

Quote:
4. I think it is fair and reasonable to state an opinion...but to state with such emphatic certainty that another person is not a Christian is the height of arrogance.

Wrong again. Jesus specifically advises his followers to check whether someone is genuine or not and specifies the means for doing so - he even underlines the fact that people will 'fake' it and pretend to be Christians;

Quote:
Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves. You will fully recognize them by their fruits. You will fully know them by their fruits.

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Anders,

Isn't it the very foundation of Christianity, that one who calls himself a Christian, by default, accepts the word of Christ, and utilizes the guidance of God in their daily life?

If Blair and Bush are claiming to be Christians, then by default, they are asking for, and receiving advice and guidance from God to help them make decisions.

If they are not asking for, and receiving guidance from God for these decisions, (and you don't have any bigger decision to make than invading another country) then by default, they are false, non-christians. Liars and deceivers.

In your right mind, could someone who is claiming to be a christian, not ask for guidance from God, when they know that hundreds of thousands of innocent lives might be wasted?


Anders you ask wonderful thoughtful questions in my opinion!

I would only say:

Be careful to trust men or women.

It (sad but true) does not matter if they are (self -proclaimed) Christians or other.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes - according to basic Christian theology.

Basic Christian theology however was not invented by Jesus Christ and in some places the two are in conflict.

Personally I prefer the teachings of Jesus to theology and in this case his teachings were nothing like what you (or basic Christian theology) describes. Quite simply he says: 'one must be born-again'. No acceptance of dogma, no public assertions: simply born again.

And of course he goes on to describe this state and the complete change of character it entails. Strangely this change would preclude many of the character traits we are discussing - greed and the desire to murder for example.



Disagree. No-one can judge except God but that does not mean we cannot describe. Again, we have the words of someone called Jesus - maybe he wasn't a Christian but I'm going to quote him again: by their fruits you shall know them.



Well, that's your opinion maybe. Jesus taught something different and the early Christians believed something different. Fruits again:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galations 5:22-23


Not only a list against which we can check off the fruits that we would know someone by, but a list which many of today's so-called Christians would demonstrably fall short of.



Wrong again. Jesus specifically advises his followers to check whether someone is genuine or not and specifies the means for doing so - he even underlines the fact that people will 'fake' it and pretend to be Christians;


segovius Great post!

I would only pass on that I believe Jesus is the only son of God conceived by a virgin mother, lived a sinless life and came not to condemn but to save. Who died on a wooden cross and rose again.

To God be the glory.

God is supernatural, loving and just.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, "I assure you, unless you are born again, you can never see the Kingdom of God."


Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #102 of 114
If only all the christians were like you, Dale...

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
If only all the christians were like you, Dale...

BR it's good to see you.

The way I would put it is like this.

BR you will never be put in a box by me. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for ya buddy

Rock on!

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #104 of 114
This thread reminds me of the Dear Dr. Laura letter from Penn a few years back...

Quote:
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #105 of 114
The whole "you're not a real Christian" argument is among the most asinine in the entire world.

It is ludicrous... as if there is some big list of who is Really Christian and that individuals have access to the Divine Eraser and they can, through careful study of what a person does/says/thinks, take a balance of a person's life and erase them from the big heavenly parchment.

It's all backfill for more pragmatic and real-world concerns. "Christian" itself is merely a social construct.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #106 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
The whole "you're not a real Christian" argument is among the most asinine in the entire world.

It is ludicrous... as if there is some big list of who is Really Christian and that individuals have access to the Divine Eraser and they can, through careful study of what a person does/says/thinks, take a balance of a person's life and erase them from the big heavenly parchment.

It's all backfill for more pragmatic and real-world concerns. "Christian" itself is merely a social construct.

Everything is a social construct.

We have words to describe things. Those words express a reality that lies behind them - we can and do change the words on a whim but that does not change what they originally were designed to signify.

This is all the more important because we are today suffering under governments that hold this as their only creed. To them a word such as 'Freedom' or 'Democracy' does not mean what it is generally understood to mean - they have become malleable and flexible concepts that now mean merely 'things that we do' or 'whatever we believe in at any given time'.

To be a Communist is to believe in the doctrine of Communism. People can (and do) insult people with this label who are not Communists but that does not make it so.

So it is with Christianity. To be a Christian is to follow the teaching of Christ. It really is that simple and a million people who adopt the name with no inward change will not change that inner meaning.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes - according to basic Christian theology.

Basic Christian theology however was not invented by Jesus Christ and in some places the two are in conflict.

Personally I prefer the teachings of Jesus to theology and in this case his teachings were nothing like what you (or basic Christian theology) describes. Quite simply he says: 'one must be born-again'. No acceptance of dogma, no public assertions: simply born again.

Hang on a second. You are simply wrong here.

First, I didn't say anything about acceptance of any "dogma"...simply acceptance of Jesus Christ ("no one comes to the Father except through me"...that guy).

Second, read a little further on that "born again" bit (John 3:3) to John 3:16-21:

Quote:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Disagree. No-one can judge except God but that does not mean we cannot describe. Again, we have the words of someone called Jesus - maybe he wasn't a Christian but I'm going to quote him again: by their fruits you shall know them.

Let's be sure we all get this right (Matthew 7:15-23):

Quote:
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

So, yes...by their fruit. My point wasn't that there ar not pople running around calling themselves Christians who "inwardly they are ferocious wolves", of course there are. But ultimately there is a singlar decision point ("born again") followed by a process of being "born again" in which some of those fruits are not as good as others.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Not only a list against which we can check off the fruits that we would know someone by, but a list which many of today's so-called Christians would demonstrably fall short of.

Certainly I agree. However, these are outward expressions of an inward change (born again) that are sometimes imperfectly executed. None of us is perfect in the "bearing" of these "fruits of the spirit"...but this imperfection doesn't necessarily rise to the "oh...he's obviously not a Christian" charge.
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
The whole "you're not a real Christian" argument is among the most asinine in the entire world.

It is ludicrous... as if there is some big list of who is Really Christian and that individuals have access to the Divine Eraser and they can, through careful study of what a person does/says/thinks, take a balance of a person's life and erase them from the big heavenly parchment.

It's all backfill for more pragmatic and real-world concerns. "Christian" itself is merely a social construct.

It's true that Christianity is Christians, no more nor less. But I think it's fair to point out inconsistencies between purported Christian philosophy and what some Christians do. segovius does this frequently with Islam.
post #109 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
This sounds too much a cop out.

Sorry. It wasn't intended to be a cop out.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
How about all these characters who take advantage of the pror knowledge that all will be fine when they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and all of their sins get forgiven, despite their having behaved like jerks throughout their lives?

That is covered (by Jesus himself) in Matthew 20.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
So,can a Christian muddle through life in a most "un-Christlike way", and still be accepted by his church?

Well, acceptance by "their church" and by God are separate and distinct things I would say.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
When God judges a person, do their actions throughout their life get taken into consideration if they decide to "give themselves to Jesus" just before they die?

I believe so, yes. I believe this is true for everyone regardless of when they were "born again".

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Who determines what is relevant, and what isn't, and why? What are the parameters here?

What you are asking about is hermeneutics. and it is more ivolved that we have space for here.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
The Bible is most inconsistent in many places,

That is how it appears to some, yes.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Or again in Leviticus (21:7) that "you shall not marry a woman divorced from her husband." How many Christians are divorcees?

Well, again...the perfection standard. Certainly Christians are imperfect, and imperfect in obedience to God...imperfect in the "bearing of fruits of the spirit". The question you as is whether this disobedience and imperfection invalidates their "born again-ness" or salvation with God. Even that is debated amongst Christians.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Who decided that a divorcee could attend a church

Again, you are mixing "church" and "God".

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
modern US evangelical 'Christianity' which expends huge amounts of energy (which looks decidely hate-motivated at times) in castigating gays and lesbians.

Agreed. I don't necessarily think it is hate-motivated...but I think it certainly looks that way much of the time.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Why are the dual standards OK, and should Christians regard all parts of the Bible with equal relevancy, or should the words of Jesus assume priority here?

Again, hermeneutics.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Thats fair. I am certainly not trying to come across as arrogant.

Fair enough. Didn't necessarily think you were. I'm not either. I do think we (people in general) are often quick to judge on thinbgs we ought to slow down on a tad.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Its just that it seems that there is a whole lot of "excess baggage" associated with Christianity,

Absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt, unquestionably true! In fact, I was (half) joking with our Pastor (not too long ago) that we ought call ourselves something other that "Christians"...because of this baggage. I think it probably more problematic in America (though I don't know this for sure). Christianity in America has become more about political power than anything else, and it saddens me (probably more than it saddens you or anyone else here).

NOTE: I also think that "evangelical" and "fundamentalist" (characterized by a return to fundamental principles) have been bastardized as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
to the point that the original message(s) delivered by Jesus have been obscured in a cloud of theological and ecclesiastical fog.

Sometimes, yes.
post #110 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think it's fair to point out inconsistencies between purported Christian philosophy and what some Christians do.

I think this a fair too. The "leap" (so to speak) comes when an emphatic assertion is made that so-and-so simply is not a Christian. It may very well be that so-and-so has a flawed understanding of what it means to be, and how their life should be, etc. It may seem like a subtle and pedantic point. I suppose it is. But maybe it is more important than we realize.
post #111 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
If only all the christians were like you, Dale...

Yes, totally agree, though there are some very encouraging signs with the Emerging Church movement.

Another Link. I am really getting into this - it has restored my faith in Christianity (not literally - but you know what I mean).

I especially have a lot of time for Tony Campolo - his Evangelical Christianity has been hijacked really tells it like it is imo.

This is exactly the sort of renewal that Christianity needs and I also believe that when it is complete Christianity may be able to help other religions clear their house in the same way and we can move on to a new spiritual level in society that we cannot conceive of at the moment.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #112 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes, totally agree, though there are some very encouraging signs with the Emerging Church movement.

Another Link. I am really getting into this - it has restored my faith in Christianity (not literally - but you know what I mean).

The whole "emergent" church thing is definitely an interesting development. Like all things it has its own "extremists" as well. But it has a lot of good things to say.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I especially have a lot of time for Tony Campolo - his Evangelical Christianity has been hijacked really tells it like it is imo.

I like Campolo too. Good guy.
post #113 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Anders you ask wonderful thoughtful questions in my opinion!

I would only say:

Be careful to trust men or women.

It (sad but true) does not matter if they are (self -proclaimed) Christians or other.

Fellows

uh-oh, Ive been quoted by the great Fellowship, but I cant tell if he's agreeing with me or marking me as a person who cant be trusted!
post #114 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship


I would only pass on that I believe Jesus is the only son of God conceived by a virgin mother, lived a sinless life and came not to condemn but to save. Who died on a wooden cross and rose again.


Fellowship

here's one I missed!. Why can't you get past this stage of understanding Fellowship?

It didn't happen - it does.
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