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ILLEGAL Immigration-Congress wimps out again - Page 2

post #41 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
I was erring on the low side, not including illegals.
Who cares if the US has 2 Billion people? I would think most Americans would care. If you don't live here, why are you responding? Of course you don't care.

Erring on the low side?

Well the census data is out there for everyone to see.

Do I live in the US?

Anybody?
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post #42 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve! The moment our founding fathers turned against the british they could be considered " Illegal immigrants ".

Get real!


So you're saying that nobody needs to follow our laws and should do whatever they want? This isn't some plot of land, this is a country with borders and laws. Or at least it used to be.
We have a legal immigration system, noone should have a right to disregard it.
post #43 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Erring on the low side?

Well the census data is out there for everyone to see.

Do I live in the US?

Anybody?

Its currently below 300 million.
post #44 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I think we have had illegals around long enough that our cost of living is much lower than it would be without them.

Any mass exodus would be devastating to the economy.

Those jobs would be filled with legal immigrants.
How do you think this country survived without problems before the mass illegal influx?
post #45 of 124
Quit worring about this problem. It will take care of itself. At the rate we keep exporting and outsourcing jobs, THERE WILL BE NO REASON TO COME TO AMERICA LEGALLY OR ILLEGALLY.
post #46 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
You want open borders where anyone, including terrorists have easy access to the US? You sure about that?

It is my understanding that the recent terrorist attack (9/11) consisted of people that came in through normal, legal channels either through Canada or directly from other countries (not Mexico). And they also boarded plans through security being run by American (not Dubai, to pick a random example) companies.

Your concern seems to be misplaced.
post #47 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
Quit worring about this problem. It will take care of itself. At the rate we keep exporting and outsourcing jobs, THERE WILL BE NO REASON TO COME TO AMERICA LEGALLY OR ILLEGALLY.

Good point. I feel obligated to my niece and other young'uns to leave them a country as nice to live in as the one I grew up with.
Sadly, this is seeming to not be the case, but I'll go down fighting to the end.
post #48 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
It is my understanding that the recent terrorist attack (9/11) consisted of people that came in through normal, legal channels either through Canada or directly from other countries (not Mexico). And they also boarded plans through security being run by American (not Dubai, to pick a random example) companies.

Your concern seems to be misplaced.

Guess again. There has been a large increase in OTM's (other than mexicans) being caught by the border patrol. Most of these were Muslim nationals. How many have slipped through? Hundreds? Thousands?
My concern is well founded. I suggest you look further into the matter. Increased border security is supported by both Parties for this very same reason.
post #49 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Guess again.

Are you saying that I am wrong about:

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
It is my understanding that the recent terrorist attack (9/11) consisted of people that came in through normal, legal channels either through Canada or directly from other countries (not Mexico).

If so, please cite your sources.

You may well be correct that people other than Mexicans are coming into the U.S. through the Mexican border. But a) they can do this through Canada anyway, and b) there havn't been any terrorist attacks in the U.S. since 9/11 so, possibly they are just biding their time...or possibly this problem isn't as bad as you think it is.
post #50 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Are you saying that I am wrong about:



If so, please cite your sources.

You may well be correct that people other than Mexicans are coming into the U.S. through the Mexican border. But a) they can do this through Canada anyway, and b) there havn't been any terrorist attacks in the U.S. since 9/11 so, possibly they are just biding their time...or possibly this problem isn't as bad as you think it is.

So, they can come in from Canada anyway? That doesn't change the fact that they are coming in from Mexico. Having an open border is a very dangerous thing. I'm glad even Democrats in Congress realize this.
post #51 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Its currently below 300 million.

Perhaps, but it is estimated to be at 298.4 million. And the census estimates are generally low -- undercounting of urban populations.

In fact, your estimate of 275 million is below the census count of 2000.

So you are off by about eight years...
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post #52 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Perhaps, but it is estimated to be at 298.4 million. And the census estimates are generally low -- undercounting of urban populations.

In fact, your estimate of 275 million is below the census count of 2000.

So you are off by about eight years...

So then my argument is actually aided by your numbers. The population explosion is even worse than I thought.
post #53 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
So then my argument is actually aided by your numbers. The population explosion is even worse than I thought.

Heh.

33 million in the 1990-2000 decade.

OOO scary people! ALl the people! With all those people! AHHHH!!!! People!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #54 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
That doesn't change the fact that they are coming in from Mexico.

Do you have something to support this? And do you have something that demonstrates these people coming through the Mexican border to be terrorists?

Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Having an open border is a very dangerous thing.

Possibly.

Still, we have had relatively open borders for most our nation's history.

We have had two terrorist attacks by foreign nationals. These terrorists, apparently, came in through legal channels (and several of them, I believe, through Canada)...and not through Mexico.

Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
I'm glad even Democrats in Congress realize this.

Are these the same D's that generally wanted amnesty for so many years but were fighting against "law and order" R's who wanted "tougher borders"?

This is a joke. D's (and R's) go whichever way the (public opinion) wind blows on a given day. The D's "realize this" now that the R's want to create a "guest worker" program.
post #55 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
We have had two terrorist attacks by foreign nationals. These terrorists, apparently, came in through legal channels (and several of them, I believe, through Canada)...and not through Mexico.

For the (hopefully) last time, NONE of the 9-11 terrorists entered the U.S. from Canada.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #56 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Do you have something to support this? And do you have something that demonstrates these people coming through the Mexican border to be terrorists?



Possibly.

Still, we have had relatively open borders for most our nation's history.

We have had two terrorist attacks by foreign nationals. These terrorists, apparently, came in through legal channels (and several of them, I believe, through Canada)...and not through Mexico.



Are these the same D's that generally wanted amnesty for so many years but were fighting against "law and order" R's who wanted "tougher borders"?

This is a joke. D's (and R's) go whichever way the (public opinion) wind blows on a given day. The D's "realize this" now that the R's want to create a "guest worker" program.

Go to http://www.fairus.org
They have all the info on OTM's.
After 9/11 most of the loopholes were closed for the channels they used to get into the US. That is why they are using the border to gain entry. They didnt use it before because they didn't have to.
Bush should have closed the border right after 9/11 but the King of ineptitude did nothing. Of course he attacked iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 but that another story.
As for public opinion, the majority of Americans dont believe in an amnesty. What we have here is an odd confluence between some republicans (like shrub) who are prodded by their business lobby to continue their influx of cheap labor, and Democrats who have always been influenced by ethnic pimps and love to pander.
On the other side you have republicans who are more traditional in their support for law and order, and a very few democrats who realize the environmental disaster this country is heading into with its population explosion.
The media is mostly on the side of the pro-illegal immigration clan, which means most news is slanted toward the law breakers.
Its an uphill battle for those opposed to an amnesty, and has been from the beginning. Public opinion is often ignored when that public isn't the kind to take to the streets in protest.
post #57 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
There is cross flow of people amounting to millions. Why would it be difficult? Make sure businesses that hire illegals are fined up the yin-yang and threaten them with jail. No jobs, goodbye illegals.
And since when do we just give up when something is difficult? Apparently right now.
And we already let in 1 million legal immigrants per year. We don;t need more people, our population is exploding.

Have you factored in the costs of the law enforcement to round up and get rid of the illegals? Every war we declare is a money sink. The war on drugs is a prime example. We don't need a war on illegals.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #58 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
For the (hopefully) last time, NONE of the 9-11 terrorists entered the U.S. from Canada.

OK. Cool. My misunderstanding. But they didn't enter through Mexico. You validate my main point even better. They came in through legal channels.
post #59 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
So you're saying that nobody needs to follow our laws and should do whatever they want? This isn't some plot of land, this is a country with borders and laws. Or at least it used to be.
We have a legal immigration system, noone should have a right to disregard it.

I'm saying when a law becomes so ridged that it doesn't fit the situation or the times ( just like with our founding fathers ) it should be looked at. If it can't be changed it should be broken. Don't kid yourself. Progress has been made lots of times through civil disobedience. As a matter of fact this country was born on it!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #60 of 124
If we build a 700 mile wall, won't we just use illegal aliens to build it?

It's a solution causing a problem the solution was trying to fix. Wait, no... It's a problem looking for a solution to a solution for a problem. No that's not right either... It's a problem that's a solution to a problem's solution? Whatever.
post #61 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
If we build a 700 mile wall, won't we just use illegal aliens to build it?

It's a solution causing a problem the solution was trying to fix. Wait, no... It's a problem looking for a solution to a solution for a problem. No that's not right either... It's a problem that's a solution to a problem's solution? Whatever.

Someone on one of the radio shows in Houston suggested that. They were serious.
post #62 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
If we build a 700 mile wall, won't we just use illegal aliens to build it?

It's a solution causing a problem the solution was trying to fix. Wait, no... It's a problem looking for a solution to a solution for a problem. No that's not right either... It's a problem that's a solution to a problem's solution? Whatever.

The "solution" that you are talking about is people hiring illegals so that they do not have to hire union employees who make little things like a living wage and have little things like medical benefits.

It is a problem and it is very sad that we watch rich businesses label any real immigration reform as racism so they can continue to pay exploitive wages and break the backs of unions.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #63 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The "solution" that you are talking about is people hiring illegals so that they do not have to hire union employees who make little things like a living wage and have little things like medical benefits.

It is a problem and it is very sad that we watch rich businesses label any real immigration reform as racism so they can continue to pay exploitive wages and break the backs of unions.

Nick

That's a very good point. It's true that unions are generally in favor or cracking down on illegal immigration, and businesses are against cracking down on it. It puts Republicans, in particular, in a difficult position, because probably the best solution to the problem is to significantly tighten up the laws about hiring illegals, but Republicans can't really do that because businesses don't want them to. So they come up with these utterly implausible "wall" solutions instead.
post #64 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
That's a very good point. It's true that unions are generally in favor or cracking down on illegal immigration, and businesses are against cracking down on it. It puts Republicans, in particular, in a difficult position, because probably the best solution to the problem is to significantly tighten up the laws about hiring illegals, but Republicans can't really do that because businesses don't want them to. So they come up with these utterly implausible "wall" solutions instead.

I assure you it isn't just Republicans. Democrats exploit this as well. They hand over and support free trade agreements, they tell the unions to kiss off, they also label any attempts to deal with immigration to be racist as well.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #65 of 124
I was on a bus in downtown Houston few years ago and a Mexican guy sat down next to me. He asked me if I spoke English and I told him I did. He congratulated me for speaking English and started to share his thoughts. He told me that he and an organization he belongs to were trying to end bilingual education because they saw it as a tool of corporate American to keep Hispanics from learning English and thus easily oppressed as an uneducated class of laborers. He invited me to a meeting that I did not attend. I mention this here because I think it relevant to the discussion.
post #66 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac on a Mac
He told me that he and an organization he belongs to were trying to end bilingual education because they saw it as a tool of corporate American to keep Hispanics from learning English and thus easily oppressed as an uneducated class of laborers.

Interesting opinion.

I've heard (in the past at least) that many immigrants disliked having their kids speak their "native" tongue preferring instead they learn english and integrate/assimilate into the prevailing (U.S.) culture. Don't know if this is true and whether the story you conveyed is another manifestation of that same idea.
post #67 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Interesting opinion.

I've heard (in the past at least) that many immigrants disliked having their kids speak their "native" tongue preferring instead they learn english and integrate/assimilate into the prevailing (U.S.) culture. Don't know if this is true and whether the story you conveyed is another manifestation of that same idea.

My ex-girlfriends parents are both immigrants -- one from india and one from russia -- and they insisted that their children NOT speak or even learn their mother tounges as it would put them at a disadvantage in schools etc...

I actually think it is a common feature of many immigrant families....
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post #68 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Good point. I feel obligated to my niece and other young'uns to leave them a country as nice to live in as the one I grew up with.
Sadly, this is seeming to not be the case, but I'll go down fighting to the end.

Really, the biggest problem I see with illegal immigration, is that they are often employed 'off the books'. Therfore they escape taxes and cost the government money in tax income. One way to cure this problem would be to go to a VAT or national sales tax. That has it's pros and cons as well. IMO, it is a complicated issue with no easy answers.
post #69 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Have you factored in the costs of the law enforcement to round up and get rid of the illegals? Every war we declare is a money sink. The war on drugs is a prime example. We don't need a war on illegals.

Like I said, give up the jobs and the reason for their being here and many will leave on their own. Pass a law fining companies that hire illegals, fine them and make it public to scare away other businesses from doing it.
It would cost far less to deport them than to support them anyway.
post #70 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
OK. Cool. My misunderstanding. But they didn't enter through Mexico. You validate my main point even better. They came in through legal channels.

And now they can't so they are trying to get in through the border. Terrorists are insane but they arent stupid.
post #71 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The "solution" that you are talking about is people hiring illegals so that they do not have to hire union employees who make little things like a living wage and have little things like medical benefits.

It is a problem and it is very sad that we watch rich businesses label any real immigration reform as racism so they can continue to pay exploitive wages and break the backs of unions.

Nick

Not only unions, they are basically trying to destroy the middle class. And so far succeeding.
post #72 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac on a Mac
I was on a bus in downtown Houston few years ago and a Mexican guy sat down next to me. He asked me if I spoke English and I told him I did. He congratulated me for speaking English and started to share his thoughts. He told me that he and an organization he belongs to were trying to end bilingual education because they saw it as a tool of corporate American to keep Hispanics from learning English and thus easily oppressed as an uneducated class of laborers. He invited me to a meeting that I did not attend. I mention this here because I think it relevant to the discussion.

He is absolutely correct. I am always hoping other hispanics wake up to that reality.

http://www.usenglish.org
post #73 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
He is absolutely correct. I am always hoping other hispanics wake up to that reality.

http://www.usenglish.org

Voluntarily learning english in a country that does much of its buisness in english is completely different than having that language forced onto you by a law.
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post #74 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Voluntarily learning english in a country that does much of its buisness in english is completely different than having that language forced onto you by a law.

It should be forced. When you move to a country you adopt its languages and customs. Its worked for immigrants for over 200 years, hispanics should be no different. Right now hispanics have the worst education scores of any ethnic group. That needs to improve both for their sake and for the rest of us. Its important that they succeed.
post #75 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Like I said, give up the jobs and the reason for their being here and many will leave on their own. Pass a law fining companies that hire illegals, fine them and make it public to scare away other businesses from doing it.
It would cost far less to deport them than to support them anyway.

What happens then to the price of fruit & vegetables? What happens to the price of contractor labor? What happens to the price of hiring a nanny or a housekeeper?

Well, at least for the agriculture, we'll just import more and kill some American businesses in the process. Stop acting as if this is such an easy straightforward problem with a simple solution. What you are calling for has major ramifications.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #76 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
It should be forced. When you move to a country you adopt its languages and customs. Its worked for immigrants for over 200 years, hispanics should be no different. Right now hispanics have the worst education scores of any ethnic group. That needs to improve both for their sake and for the rest of us. Its important that they succeed.

Only if and when English is our official language, you can force it on immigrants.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #77 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
What happens then to the price of fruit & vegetables? What happens to the price of contractor labor? What happens to the price of hiring a nanny or a housekeeper?

I really hate that argument. God I hate it. It is really code language for..."Well, what happens when we can no longer exploit poor, unskilled people for cheap labor."
post #78 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
What happens then to the price of fruit & vegetables? What happens to the price of contractor labor? What happens to the price of hiring a nanny or a housekeeper?

Well, at least for the agriculture, we'll just import more and kill some American businesses in the process. Stop acting as if this is such an easy straightforward problem with a simple solution. What you are calling for has major ramifications.

People will pay more for nannies and housekeepers-big deal.
I believe in a guest worker program for agriculture-the only true jobs that Americans won't do, but without an option for citizenship. They can come in during the seasons they are needed (housed by the farmers) and then leave and come back again when needed. A TRUE guest worker program.
post #79 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Only if and when English is our official language, you can force it on immigrants.

Thats right, thats what I'm fighting for. By the way, the head of usenglish is Mauro Mujica, a hispanic immigrant.
post #80 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Thats right, thats what I'm fighting for. By the way, the head of usenglish is Mauro Mujica, a hispanic immigrant.

So you are arguing for something that would make it difficult for people who do not know english to come immigrate to the US. You are arguing against the type of immigration that established this nation and continues to establish this nation as a multicultural Mecca.

You are arguing against the immigration of my great-grand parents who didn't speak a word of english.

Your argument for a national language is short-sited and indeed Un-American.
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