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ILLEGAL Immigration-Congress wimps out again - Page 3

post #81 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
So you are arguing for something that would make it difficult for people who do not know english to come immigrate to the US. You are arguing against the type of immigration that established this nation and continues to establish this nation as a multicultural Mecca.

You are arguing against the immigration of my great-grand parents who didn't speak a word of english.

Your argument for a national language is short-sited and indeed Un-American.

Dude, it changes nothing. My grandparents couldnt speak english either, they came from Poland.
What it does is speeds their need to learn to speak english. Its good for them and its good for us.
And the US is supposed to be a melting pot, not a multicultural mecca.
post #82 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Dude, it changes nothing. My grandparents couldnt speak english either, they came from Poland.
What it does is speeds their need to learn to speak english. Its good for them and its good for us.
And the US is supposed to be a melting pot, not a multicultural mecca.

The melting pot is a retarded ideal. Do you really want everyone to be the same?
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post #83 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
The melting pot is a retarded ideal. Do you really want everyone to be the same?

I want everyone to be able to understand what everyone else is saying, and to learn our ideals and culture.
Multiculturalism is a disaster and just leads to infighting.
post #84 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
It should be forced. When you move to a country you adopt its languages and customs. Its worked for immigrants for over 200 years, hispanics should be no different. Right now hispanics have the worst education scores of any ethnic group. That needs to improve both for their sake and for the rest of us. Its important that they succeed.

Yes, when one goes to another country, one should try to blend in. However, there are different levels of blending in based on need. Also don't forget that the US has ne of the highest illiteracy rates in the advanced world and that half of junior high school kids in the US have no idea where Iraq is.

Also, in US history, how many immigrants spoke English when they first arrived? Not many.

I live in Japan wheer lots of people come to teach English. There is a very high number of them who cannot, even refuse, to speak one word of Japanese, say how important English is to learn, and complain 24/7 about how strange everything is here. They even get angry when local Japanese cannot speak English. The Japanese are very patient, but wonder, "Why do English speakers have such a high image of themselves?" Students from a school I visited said if one language is enough for their English teacher, one language is enough for them.

 

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post #85 of 124
Our ideals and culture... which were brought here and developed by... oh, this is a tuffy... immigrants with a variety of mackgrounds who created something new from their differences and similarities, but based on radically different experiences, which is what makes multiculturalism so important. Have you ever lived in another country?

 

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post #86 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Bergermeister
Yes, when one goes to another country, one should try to blend in. However, there are different levels of blending in based on need. Also don't forget that the US has ne of the highest illiteracy rates in the advanced world and that half of junior high school kids in the US have no idea where Iraq is.

Also, in US history, how many immigrants spoke English when they first arrived? Not many.

I live in Japan wheer lots of people come to teach English. There is a very high number of them who cannot, even refuse, to speak one word of Japanese, say how important English is to learn, and complain 24/7 about how strange everything is here. They even get angry when local Japanese cannot speak English. The Japanese are very patient, but wonder, "Why do English speakers have such a high image of themselves?" Students from a school I visited said if one language is enough for their English teacher, one language is enough for them.

If I moved to japan I would learn to speak Japanese.
In the US, where there are so many different ethnic groups, speaking one language is even more important.
And speaking of illiteracy, hispanics have the highest high school dropout rate of any ethnic group. Bi-lingual education is a disaster.
post #87 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Bergermeister
Our ideals and culture... which were brought here and developed by... oh, this is a tuffy... immigrants with a variety of mackgrounds who created something new from their differences and similarities, but based on radically different experiences, which is what makes multiculturalism so important. Have you ever lived in another country?

Immigrants add things to our culture-food, new words, other things.
But they are adding to a culture that is already here-the Protestant work ethic, Western values, the english language (mangled as it is).

People who move here need to add to our culture, not change it. Multiculturalism is a mongrelization and does not work anywhere in the world and it wont work here.
post #88 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You are arguing against the type of immigration that established this nation and continues to establish this nation as a multicultural Mecca...

...as opposed to the other one?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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post #89 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I really hate that argument. God I hate it. It is really code language for..."Well, what happens when we can no longer exploit poor, unskilled people for cheap labor."

I only bring it up because steve is talking about the cost savings when illegal aliens no longer use our services for free. You can't make an economic argument and not look at the entire picture. That is all.

 

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post #90 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Immigrants add things to our culture-food, new words, other things.
But they are adding to a culture that is already here-the Protestant work ethic, Western values, the english language (mangled as it is).

People who move here need to add to our culture, not change it. Multiculturalism is a mongrelization and does not work anywhere in the world and it wont work here.

Have a look here at what Thomas Pain wrote... go down to the Golden Door section.
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...ctover/ch1.htm

Also note the section on Limits on Newcomers....

Here is a quotation from the last section

THE LEGACY

The steady stream of people coming to America's shores has had a profound effect on the American character. It takes courage and flexibility to leave your homeland and come to a new country. The American people have been noted for their willingness to take risks and try new things, for their independence and optimism. If Americans whose families have been here longer tend to take their material comfort and political freedoms for granted, immigrants are at hand to remind them how important those privileges are.

Immigrants also enrich American communities by bringing aspects of their native cultures with them. Many black Americans now celebrate both Christmas and Kwanzaa, a festival drawn from African rituals. Hispanic Americans celebrate their traditions with street fairs and other festivities on Cinco de Mayo (May 5). Ethnic restaurants abound in many American cities. President John F. Kennedy, himself the grandson of Irish immigrants, summed up this blend of the old and the new when he called America "a society of immigrants, each of whom had begun life anew, on an equal footing. This is the secret of America: a nation of people with the fresh memory of old traditions who dare to explore new frontiers...."


This page was created by the US government. Yes, it shows concerns, but it also points out the greatness of the system.

Maybe America is the Final Frontier? Do we need the Enterprise to explore it?

 

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post #91 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Bergermeister
Have a look here at what Thomas Pain wrote... go down to the Golden Door section.
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...ctover/ch1.htm

Also note the section on Limits on Newcomers....

Here is a quotation from the last section

THE LEGACY

The steady stream of people coming to America's shores has had a profound effect on the American character. It takes courage and flexibility to leave your homeland and come to a new country. The American people have been noted for their willingness to take risks and try new things, for their independence and optimism. If Americans whose families have been here longer tend to take their material comfort and political freedoms for granted, immigrants are at hand to remind them how important those privileges are.

Immigrants also enrich American communities by bringing aspects of their native cultures with them. Many black Americans now celebrate both Christmas and Kwanzaa, a festival drawn from African rituals. Hispanic Americans celebrate their traditions with street fairs and other festivities on Cinco de Mayo (May 5). Ethnic restaurants abound in many American cities. President John F. Kennedy, himself the grandson of Irish immigrants, summed up this blend of the old and the new when he called America "a society of immigrants, each of whom had begun life anew, on an equal footing. This is the secret of America: a nation of people with the fresh memory of old traditions who dare to explore new frontiers...."

This page was created by the US government. Yes, it shows concerns, but it also points out the greatness of the system.

Maybe America is the Final Frontier? Do we need the Enterprise to explore it?

It doesnt say that immigrants should hold onto their old cultures at the expense of their new one, correct?
Like I said before, immigrants have added to our culture, not taken it over. You cant live in the US and not speak its language. Doing so is showing disrespect to all Americans.
We all moved here from different places, but becoming an American should be paramount. Tell that to the protesting high school students who were allowed to walk out of class and in some cases encouraged to, waving mexican flags and burning American flags. How did you feel about that?
post #92 of 124
We are not a melting pot.

We have Chinatowns, Little Italies, German Villages, Russian enclaves etc etc etc...

America is defined by our ability to appreciate all of these groups as equal members to our society even if they maintain cultural values and identities that are different from the "norm."

What you are arguing for is for all of these places and the things they represent to be replaced by strip malls....
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post #93 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
We are not a melting pot.

We have Chinatowns, Little Italies, German Villages, Russian enclaves etc etc etc...

America is defined by our ability to appreciate all of these groups as equal members to our society even if they maintain cultural values and identities that are different from the "norm."

What you are arguing for is for all of these places and the things they represent to be replaced by strip malls....

The US is by and large a melting pot. if we weren't we couldn't function. There will always be small ethnic enclaves, but if the entire country were made up of these enclaves we would not have a cohesive society. It would be a disaster.
post #94 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
I only bring it up because steve is talking about the cost savings when illegal aliens no longer use our services for free. You can't make an economic argument and not look at the entire picture. That is all.

Fair enough.
post #95 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
We are not a melting pot.

We have Chinatowns, Little Italies, German Villages, Russian enclaves etc etc etc...

America is defined by our ability to appreciate all of these groups as equal members to our society even if they maintain cultural values and identities that are different from the "norm."

What you are arguing for is for all of these places and the things they represent to be replaced by strip malls....

True, but these groups have for the most part found ways to maintain their cultures and operate in mainstream American society. We can argue forever about if people should or should not have to learn English, but the reality is that those who do learn English are at a tremendous advantage over those who do not. Children in a lot of countries are taught English for a good reason: Knowing English helps people succeed.
post #96 of 124
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post #97 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
The US is by and large a melting pot. if we weren't we couldn't function. There will always be small ethnic enclaves, but if the entire country were made up of these enclaves we would not have a cohesive society. It would be a disaster.

Each house is an enclave.
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post #98 of 124
We are, if I understand it correctly, a stew potindividual elements retain their identity and enrich the whole.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #99 of 124
stop assuming that people can only know one language properly.

This is bullshit. You can speak many many languages fluently with no problem.

It's not as if speaking Spanish would stop you from learning English. PLEASE.
post #100 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by soulcrusher
stop assuming that people can only know one language properly.

This is bullshit. You can speak many many languages fluently with no problem.

It's not as if speaking Spanish would stop you from learning English. PLEASE.

Who said anything like that?
The point is we make it too easy for some immigrants not to have to learn to speak English ASAP. Multilingual ballots should be abolished. Bilingual education should be trashed, as it is in many school districts because its a failed program.
post #101 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Who said anything like that?
The point is we make it too easy for some immigrants not to have to learn to speak English ASAP. Multilingual ballots should be abolished. Bilingual education should be trashed, as it is in many school districts because its a failed program.

Bilingual education is very important. There are many advantages, cultural and intellectual, of knowing more than one language.

There's a reason why most Universities require the study of a foreign language.

The best age to learn a new language is when you are a young child.

Very often learning a new language is learning a new way of thinking. Plus, the more languages that you speak, the more information that is available to you.
post #102 of 124
And I do agree that is absolutely necessary for immigrants in the US to learn English. If they don't they will be at a disadvantage.

Yet, I do not think that they should be stopped from learning their parents tongue or any other language they wish to learn. This bilingual learning process should be provided by the government, not just for immigrants but for everyone.

Someone mentioned that immigrants don't want their children to learn their tongue because they would be at a disadvantage. This implies that learning another language somehow impairs the child from learning English. Bullshit.

I have a joke for you,

What do you call a person that speaks three languages? Trilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks two languages? Bilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks only one language? American.
post #103 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by soulcrusher
Bilingual education is very important. There are many advantages, cultural and intellectual, of knowing more than one language.

There's a reason why most Universities require the study of a foreign language.

The best age to learn a new language is when you are a young child.

Very often learning a new language is learning a new way of thinking. Plus, the more languages that you speak, the more information that is available to you.

You're thinking of something else.
Bilingual education is teaching lessons in spanish to spanish speaking immigrants, while trying to get them to speak english also. This is a failure. What it is being replaced with is english immersion, where they get taught everything in english. It speeds up their integration and english speaking capability.
I took Spanish in high school, thats an elective. Thats a completely different thing and should of course remain.
post #104 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by soulcrusher
And I do agree that is absolutely necessary for immigrants in the US to learn English. If they don't they will be at a disadvantage.

Yet, I do not think that they should be stopped from learning their parents tongue or any other language they wish to learn. This bilingual learning process should be provided by the government, not just for immigrants but for everyone.

Someone mentioned that immigrants don't want their children to learn their tongue because they would be at a disadvantage. This implies that learning another language somehow impairs the child from learning English. Bullshit.

I have a joke for you,

What do you call a person that speaks three languages? Trilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks two languages? Bilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks only one language? American.

And the most powerful country in the world is..........?
post #105 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
And the most powerful country in the world is..........?

Is isolationism the way to maintain that?

 

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post #106 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Is isolationism the way to maintain that?

And how is what we are talking about isolationist?
post #107 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
And how is what we are talking about isolationist?

Not what we are talking about but rather what you are talking about. You seem to want some major restrictions on immigration. Shutting down the borders is one step down the path of isolationism.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #108 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Not what we are talking about but rather what you are talking about. You seem to want some major restrictions on immigration. Shutting down the borders is one step down the path of isolationism.

Ha! Not quite.
Legal immigration would continue(I would like to see the numbers reduced not stopped), illegal immigration would be hopefully cut back quite a lot. That is hardly isolationist.
I want population control. This country will die without it.
post #109 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
This country will die without it.

A country cannot 'die.'
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post #110 of 124
After much thought on this problem -- I have decided that the ultimate problem lies with the EMPLOYERS of illegal aliens.

We need to make it EXPENSIVE for them to employ undocumented workers -- however, my plan consists of giving everyone who crosses into our country a tax identification number that associated with their finger prints -- the employers must report the tax ids (or SS#s) of all employees -- and if those employees do not submit taxes the employer is responsible for getting in contact with the employee and informing them that they have two weeks to get to the border. All employers must pay employees minimum wage -- we will also tax employees who just have tax ids (and no workers visa etc) at a higher rate with NO subsidies from the US welfare system -- they work and they pay taxes to cover the cost of maintaining this system as well as offset their cost on the public infrastructure.

We need to enforce these rules with spot checks and SEVERE punishment for any employers who attempt to hire non-tax ided employees or fail to report all employees...

Goal is to simultaneously sweeten the pot for legal aliens and make the employ of undocumented workers impossibly expensive...
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post #111 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
After much thought on this problem -- I have decided that the ultimate problem lies with the EMPLOYERS of illegal aliens.

Yup.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #112 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
After much thought on this problem -- I have decided that the ultimate problem lies with the EMPLOYERS of illegal aliens.

We need to make it EXPENSIVE for them to employ undocumented workers -- however, my plan consists of giving everyone who crosses into our country a tax identification number that associated with their finger prints -- the employers must report the tax ids (or SS#s) of all employees -- and if those employees do not submit taxes the employer is responsible for getting in contact with the employee and informing them that they have two weeks to get to the border. All employers must pay employees minimum wage -- we will also tax employees who just have tax ids (and no workers visa etc) at a higher rate with NO subsidies from the US welfare system -- they work and they pay taxes to cover the cost of maintaining this system as well as offset their cost on the public infrastructure.

We need to enforce these rules with spot checks and SEVERE punishment for any employers who attempt to hire non-tax ided employees or fail to report all employees...

Goal is to simultaneously sweeten the pot for legal aliens and make the employ of undocumented workers impossibly expensive...

The government could also require that the same identification # is required for purchasing goods as well.
post #113 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The government could also require that the same identification # is required for purchasing goods as well.

Um, why would they want to do that? Purchasing goods feeds money back into the US economy...
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post #114 of 124
WHat about a bar code on the fore head? Without is you can´t sell or buy anything and anyone have the right to shoot you on the suspect of being a terrorist?
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post #115 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Um, why would they want to do that? Purchasing goods feeds money back into the US economy...

Well, truthfully, it isn't any different from what you've suggested already. In order for someone to "sell" their service/labor, they are required to have a tax ID/fingerprint card (or whatever). Why limit to this one aspect of the economy?
post #116 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
WHat about a bar code on the fore head? Without is you can´t sell or buy anything and anyone have the right to shoot you on the suspect of being a terrorist?



I think Anders "got" where I was going.
post #117 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
WHat about a bar code on the fore head? Without is you can´t sell or buy anything and anyone have the right to shoot you on the suspect of being a terrorist?

Every person entering the country legally is required to have a passport (and in some cases a tourist visa) -- all this is is a formalization of that process that can be committed in lieu of a passport -- for seasonal workers and such...

What this does is make it easier to track people who cross our borders -- in particular AT OUR BORDERS -- finger printing is not required of people living in the US unless they get arrested... The number can be kept between an employee and his employer and it has no bearing outside of that relationship...
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post #118 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well, truthfully, it isn't any different from what you've suggested already. In order for someone to "sell" their service/labor, they are required to have a tax ID/fingerprint card (or whatever). Why limit to this one aspect of the economy?

This is ALREADY the case -- everyone who works in the US is already assigned at TAX ID NUMBER or already has a Social security number -- I am proposing to just extend this system to everyone who crosses the borders...
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post #119 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
This is ALREADY the case -- everyone who works in the US is already assigned at TAX ID NUMBER or already has a Social security number -- I am proposing to just extend this system to everyone who crosses the borders...

OK. Fine. Now we just need to catch them.

I mean...really...people that enter legally do have documents, including work visas that (effectively) accomplish what you suggest.

But it is the one's sneaking over the border that don't ("undocumented").

We also already have laws about employment that should prevent employers from employing people here illegally.

Three basic problems:

1. There is great (financial) incentive (relatively higher wages) to come to this country (regardless of the immigration law).

2. It is (relatively) easy to get here from land-connected nations (Mexico, Canada).

3. There is great (financial) incentive (relatively lower wages) to hire people who are here (by whatever means).

This "problem" of (illegal) immigration can basically be "solved" in a couple of ways:

1. Make it legal. Then it is no longer illegal.
2. Make #2 much, much harder (wall, border patrol, etc.)
3. Increase wages on the other side of the border.
4. Decrease wages (paid to those here illegally) on this side of the border.
5. Increase enforcement against employers.

Now, #2 and #5 are going to costs us more $ and probably not really solve the problem completely. Though combined together might reduce it quite a lot.

#4 is probably difficult to do from any policy perspective. I supposed deny any and every tax-payer funded "service" to illegal immigrants might be part of this. But overall this solution seems impractical, and wee bit exploitive and immoral to me.

#3 sounds interesting. We don't really have gazillions of Canadians flooding into the U.S. illegally. Part of this likely has to do with a higher (domestic-to-Canada) standard of living for all folks. This one is harder to just "do"...but perhaps it is the better long-term solution...and if combined with #1, might work out to be the best overall solution.

The fundamental "problem" with Mexican (and that's what we're primarily talking about here) illegal immigration is here is that we're plainly dishonest about it. We want it but we don't. We want the cheap, unskilled labor. Fine. Let's just admit that, let them in and stop arguing about it.

I am highly doubtful of the "flood" of people that steve666 suggests.

First, most of these folks are unskilled and "English language challenged". This will automatically limit their employability and thus the number than can get jobs to begin with.

Second, as more come it, wages will get bid down (slightly, I think), reducing (somewhat) incentive to come (BTW, this is a risk that those who generally want freer immigration perhaps don't see coming...that there is enough of a "flood" to bid wages WAY down thus reducing these immigrants financial standing...I happen to think this will be mitigated by other factors.)

Third, the Mexican middle class is growing (fast) and so that is becoming some greater incentives to stay home. Improved trade and immigration with the U.S. may likely accelerate this even more.

Overall, I am of the view that we should open the border and stop squaking about it and work very hard on trade improvement to enable Mexico to grow its economy as well.
post #120 of 124
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
WHat about a bar code on the fore head? Without is you can´t sell or buy anything and anyone have the right to shoot you on the suspect of being a terrorist?

N
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