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post #41 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Badtz:
<strong>actually, one more : )

when you install os 9 second, does it install like normal, like Os X wasn't there? or does it detect os x & installation continues?

is there a chance it will overwrite any os x files?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have to install OS 9 FIRST, otherwise you cannot select it as Classic.
post #42 of 64
Thread Starter 
you have to install os 9 FIRST? will it not work the other way around?
post #43 of 64
Well, your mileage may vary. I've done it both ways with no trouble, but there are several other people who have reported problems by installing OS9 second. Honestly, I don't know what the catch is.

In any case, it'd be safe to install OS9 first anyway. It's not like it'll take any more time to do that rather than do OSX first. You can format the drive from the OS9 Install CD (though the process is a little different and not as straightforward as with OSX -- if you need to know how, I can post another explanation).
post #44 of 64
Thread Starter 
that's odd some have trouble doing it the other way around. i tried to find some sort of explanation on the apple site, but couldn't find an "exact" answer to it.

i guess i'll just do classic[os9] then os x, to be safe.. i'm not sure why I prefer it the other way around.

i guess it's because i'm thinking about putting os 9 on a removeable drive [along with os x's virtual memory over there, and virtual pc].......

was also wondering......

if a program is carbon-based, do you install it in the os x's app folder? or os 9's app folder? if you put it in x's, and you run os 9, can you access & run these programs okay?

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: Badtz ]</p>
post #45 of 64
Whoa!!! VM is slow enough as it is... don't put it on an external or removable drive!!! I had my swapfile on a separate drive for awhile, but there really wasn't any real speed increase, and it was a hassle to keep current when revising the system. I've got classic on a separate drive and it works great in every version of 10 I've used regardless of when I install it. I've even drag & dropped the 9 installation to different drives and X always finds it just fine.

You can access and run carbon apps anywhere, from any OS. Apps also don't need to be in the Applications folder (except System Preferences), but unfortunately some programs expect them to be there.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: Fluffy ]</p>
post #46 of 64
Thread Starter 
post #47 of 64
Yep, that's what I did. Never noticed a difference, and it was a b!tch to keep working right. One day I reformatted my second drive and didn't bother keeping the swap partition; it just wasn't worth it.

But if mucking around with *nix settings and such makes you happy, have fun. But on an external drive you will probably see a serious speed hit.
post #48 of 64
Thread Starter 
it wouldn't benefit as much on an external firewire drive as an internal ide drive?
post #49 of 64
I don't know (never tested that config), but I suspect not. Try it, it won't hurt anything. Pull all but 64 MB out of your machine and try different tasks... it should become clear very quickly which is faster.
post #50 of 64
Thread Starter 
either way, should it benefit over having it on the same os x partition?
post #51 of 64
moving os x's virtual memory:

It's a lot more trouble than it's worth. Sometimes the difference is negligible; sometimes not. I think it's usually placebo. Plus, because it's not a procedure recommended by Apple, you could really screw up things if you do something wrong (or even if you do it right).

In fact, the only way you'd see *any* improvement is if you had a low amount of RAM and constantly hit the disk for virtual memory. Remember, OSX's memory management is dynamic -- generally, it won't page to the disk until it has run out of physical RAM and just has to. How much RAM do you plan on putting in your Mac?

carbon apps:

Like Cocoa apps and Classic apps, Carbon apps can go *anywhere* you want them. However, it's generally good practice to keep them in the Applications folder. FYI, you can keep your Classic apps there too if you want -- it really doesn't matter. Apple just separates the Classic apps into their own folder so it's easier to just plunk them all into the Trash when you decide you're finished using Classic.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
post #52 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Badtz:
<strong>you have to install os 9 FIRST? will it not work the other way around?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Installation will work, but you might not be able to select the OS 9 systemfolder as Classic. As far as I understood the OS X installer searches for an OS 9 systemfolder and adds/changes a few files there in order to use it as Classic environment.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: Gulliver ]</p>
post #53 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Gulliver:
<strong>As far as I understood the OS X installer searches for an OS 9 systemfolder and adds/changes a few files there in order to use it as Classic environment.</strong><hr></blockquote>Well, that's almost correct.

The installer doesn't do anything with regards to Classic. However, once you're actually running OSX and decide to start up Classic, you will then be given a prompt that says:



You should only see this the first time you launch Classic. However, if you ever remove or replace one of the necessary files, the dialog will be shown again.
post #54 of 64
Thread Starter 
what exactly is happening?

would it just be better to install two copies of 9? one for classic, and one for normal os 9 booting?......?
post #55 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Badtz:
<strong>what exactly is happening?

would it just be better to install two copies of 9? one for classic, and one for normal os 9 booting?......?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, no, no. As the dialog states: These changes should not affect your ability to use your System Folder with native Mac OS 9. That is completely true. The only thing it is doing is updating a few older extensions and control panels and adding a few small items to allow Classic to run rootless and interleaved between OSX apps.

You don't need two OS9 System Folders.

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
post #56 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Badtz:
<strong>what exactly is happening?

would it just be better to install two copies of 9? one for classic, and one for normal os 9 booting?......?</strong><hr></blockquote>

starfleetX is right as long as you do not use any 3rd party extensions when running in "nativ" OS9 (e.g. ATM, TypeReunion, etc.). Many third-party extensions do not run in Classic-mode and can crash Classic. This is why I have 3 partitions:
1. OS 9 only with all extensions for use as "Nativ" OS9 working partition
2. OS 9 (Apple extensions only) as Classic and OSX as OSX working partition.
3. Backup with OS9 and OS X. This is necessary because disk first aid under OSX cannot repair the boot-volume. So if you have any problems with your OSX installation on your work-partition (and you will..) you need a second OSX installation on a different partition to repair it. In a limited way this also applies to OS9. If your OS9 working partition has problems with e.g. the desktop files, the boot-volume cannot be repaired because it cannot be deactivated.
post #57 of 64
Thread Starter 
when something happens to mac os x, how exactly do you "repair" it with the backup of os x? also, how did you get a mac os x backup? is it a backup from the installed os x? or a fresh install but on a separate directory?

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Badtz ]</p>
post #58 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Badtz:
<strong>when something happens to mac os x, how exactly do you "repair" it with the backup of os x? also, how did you get a mac os x backup? is it a backup from the installed os x? or a fresh install but on a separate directory?

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Badtz ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I just did a clean install on a separate partition. Make sure you do the clean install on a separate partition (!) not just directory. You can repair it with disk-first-aid. The problem with this is, that it cannot repair the boot-partition, so you startup from your backup-partition and use disk-first-aid to repair your working-partition. Of course you could also use your Install-CD and start from there, but this does not ensure you have the current version of disk-first-aid and you might not always have the install-CD at hand.

Here is a step-by-step procedure you could use:
1. Format your disk with as many partitions as you need, but minimum 3 (you could also make 4 partitions, one additional for your documents and replace the documents-folders on the other partitions with an alias of this one folder). You could name these partitions: OS9 Work, OSX Work, Backup, Documents
2. Startup from your OS 9 install-CD (insert the CD and restart with the c-key pressed)
3. Install OS 9 on the 3 partitions: OS9 Work, OSX Work, Backup
4. Restart and insert the OS X install-CD and restart with the c-key pressed.
5. Install OS X on the 2 partitions: OSX Work, Backup
6. Restart from any of these. Open the control-panel "startup volume" and select OSX Work as your primary system (you will find 5 systems to select from: 3 times OS9, and 2 times OSX). You can change this later.
7. Restart. Now OS X Work should be the startup-volume. Set all your preferences. When done, go to Preferences/Classic and select OSX Work as your Classic environment.
8. Open the control-panel "startup volume" and select OSX Backup.
9. Restart. Now Backup is your boot-volume. Set the preferences. Trash the programs you do not need on your Backup-partition (e.g. IE). Now you could use Monolingual to remove all language-sets you do not need.
10. Open the control-panel "startup volume" and select one of the systems as your primary boot-volume.
11. Restart with the alt-key pressed. Select OS9 Work as startup-volume.
12. Set your preferences. Open the control-panel "startup volume" and select one of the systems as your primary boot-volume (Should be the same as you selected on Backup).
13. Now you can install all your 3rd-party extensions.
14. Restart with the alt-key pressed. Select OSX Work as startup-volume and select one of the systems as your primary boot-volume (Should be the same as you selected on the other 2 partitions).

Thats it! From now on you can startup with the alt-key pressed and then select OS9 Work, OSX Backup or OSX Work to start with. The only time you need to change the startup-volume is when you want to start from OS9 on your backup partition.
This whole procedure takes about 1-2 hours, but its worth it!

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: Gulliver ]

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: Gulliver ]</p>
post #59 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Gulliver:
<strong>starfleetX is right as long as you do not use any 3rd party extensions when running in "nativ" OS9 (e.g. ATM, TypeReunion, etc.). Many third-party extensions do not run in Classic-mode and can crash Classic.</strong><hr></blockquote>True, but that's where Classic's Extension Manager comes in handy.

I have three extensions sets: Mac OS 9 Minimum, Classic Only, and Mac OS 9 w/ Extras. When I know I'm going to actually need to boot into OS9 (which is very rare these days), I simply switch over to either my Mac OS 9 Minimum set or my Mac OS 9 w/ Extras set. Then, when I'm ready to boot back into OSX, I switch back to the Classic Only set.

Furthermore, you can always bypass the Classic extensions and control panels in Classic by holding shift when it loads - just like with OS9.
post #60 of 64
Thread Starter 
If something becomes corrupt on the "os x work" partition, how do you use the backup to fix it? do you use disk aid [is it a program embedded in mac os?] from the backup to fix the primary partition [os x work]?

or do you just copy the backup directory overlaying it over the primary partition?
post #61 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Badtz:
<strong>If something becomes corrupt on the "os x work" partition, how do you use the backup to fix it? do you use disk aid [is it a program embedded in mac os?] from the backup to fix the primary partition [os x work]?

or do you just copy the backup directory overlaying it over the primary partition?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You startup with the alt-key pressed, then you select the backup-partition as boot-volume. When the computer has booted you go to Applications/Utilities and start the program Disk Utility. Select your OSX Work partition and click "repair". Do this as often as any error messages are displayed (this can be once but also 4 or 5 times).
post #62 of 64
Alternatively, if you don't want to have two copies of your system on different partitions, you could simply run Disk Utility while booted up from the Install CD. It is identical to the Disk Utility that Mac OS X installs on your hard drive.
post #63 of 64
Thread Starter 
ahh thanks!

by doing this, do you erase any settings you have? or does it [os x] know to just repair the errors?
post #64 of 64
Here's an analogy for ya.

Disk Utility : Mac OS X :: ScanDisk : Windows

It's a disk maintenance program (with options to format and partition). You shouldn't lose any kind of settings simply by verifying and repairing the drive.

However, also like ScanDisk, it is not the ultimate solution to all problems. Disk Utility (and its CLI counterpart "fsck") can repair most drive errors, but for serious maintenance for if something ever goes really bad, you might consider getting a copy of Alsoft's DiskWarrior or Norton Utilities. I've had drives that were on the brink of death that DiskWarrior saved. Norton is, well, a mixed bag. He's a little buggy if you install him on OSX. Personally, I don't have either installed on the drives. Rather, I just keep the CD's safe so I can boot from them to do any repairs if necessary.

[ 06-07-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
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