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Apple's "Boot Camp" beta runs Windows XP on Macs - Page 13

post #481 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
And they reduced Lara Croft's cup size to something sensible this time. Cute upper-class English accent.

I'm English. All women are like that around here. Really, they are.

Right, where's my gun, I've PC gamers to shoot...
post #482 of 511
You ever notice how you never see Lara's teeth?
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post #483 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
You ever notice how you never see Lara's teeth?

It's better that way.
post #484 of 511
Well she *is* British...
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post #485 of 511
This thread has turned into a dead horse. How many times can we debate the same thing with the same answers?

O/S 2... already brought up and solved. IBM didn't push O/S 2... Not enough O/S 2 developers... etc etc etc.

Booting into windows comments... MOST people aren't going to go buy windows to run on a mac. They bought a mac for a mac. So that developer will only get a very niche market on the mac.

I use Fedora Core 5, Mac OS X, AND windows. I have 2 machines... a pb and a custom built machine that I built. I have already decided I am NOT installing anything other than OS X on my mac machines. For security reasons, for principal, harddrive space, and to avoid corruption. Most notably... PRINCIPAL... If only a fraction of users put windows on their macs... developers will NEVER EVER EVER EVER be able to say... ok mac user... u suck, boot into windows. Make a damn stand. Wow. You guys act like this is the end of the world. This isn't a clone situation. This isn't an O/S 2 situation. This isn't even another conversion situation. We use os x, we will always use an apple os. Period point blank. I know tons of pc developers that have wanted to develop for os x but couldn't afford the machines. Now they can. So get ready for even more developers than we had before.

I AM DONE with this thread.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #486 of 511
Quote:
[i]I know tons of pc developers that have wanted to develop for os x but couldn't afford the machines. Now they can. So get ready for even more developers than we had before. [/B]

Developers with margins of sub-$5000?
post #487 of 511
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.
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post #488 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Developers with margins of sub-$5000?

Keyword would be budget....... IE money approved by their managers to get a mac.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #489 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.

Hobbyist, professional, intermediate, beginning.. it doesn't matter what kind of developer is switching to mac as long as it is mac.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #490 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
Hobbyist, professional, intermediate, beginning.. it doesn't matter what kind of developer is switching to mac as long as it is mac.

About the only reason to switch to a mac professionaly is because market share might be trending up. Buying a dev box is not a very large barrier to entry.

Learning to code for the Mac is a larger barrier unless you have a cross-platform UI environment like Java or Torque Game Engine/Torque 2D. Both of which I could do on my old Quicksilver. The new mini is a far more acceptable dev box except for AAA games devs.

Vinea
post #491 of 511
True BUT...

devs don't usually go for that. Either way, most devs are still under budget from their company... unless they are an intermediate or hobbyist dev...

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #492 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.

Yeah, shareware and freeware. I just contributed to one who is trying to upgrade a free program (Applejack), but hasn't the money for an Intel system. We're trying to get him a Mini.
post #493 of 511
Has anyone been able to get the OEM version working?, ive been told you have to go out and purchase a retail version of xp with sp2?, ouch thats damm expensive!
post #494 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by hasapi
Has anyone been able to get the OEM version working?, ive been told you have to go out and purchase a retail version of xp with sp2?, ouch thats damm expensive!

Who said that? I'm not aware of any difference, other than the packaging, and that MS won't support it for free, the way they will with the retail version.
post #495 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.

Actually, it's quite a few of the current Mac indie developers who scrape by writing cool software without big budget funding. Panic, Delicious Monster, Ranchero...

All those guys started with no money and now make a living.

I actually think indie developers have a much better time of it than indie Windows developers. There's more of a culture of buying software with Mac users than Windows and more of a culture of not accepting the crap the big companies throw out at you.

If Bootcamp lets more indies start up because they can cross develop then it'll be really worthwhile. Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.
post #496 of 511
Originally posted by aegisdesign
....Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.



Excellent point. Seeing all the ads for M$ Visual Studio 2005 or whatever is a real contrast to Apple saying here's a great OS, here's XCode, go forth and be fruitful.
post #497 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by aegisdesign
....Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.


Excellent point. Seeing all the ads for M$ Visual Studio 2005 or whatever is a real contrast to Apple saying here's a great OS, here's XCode, go forth and be fruitful.

Having used both MS VS is cheap for what it does. MS did not stint on providing good dev tools at an affordable price in comparison to the unix ide pricing when it first came out (hundreds vs thousands). In comparison to Eclipse or XCode, yes it's pricey but VS Express 2005 is free for a single language too.

That's good enough for most hobbiests.

VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).

Vinea
post #498 of 511
How many seats is that MS Premium sub? (He asks, being too lazy and too late for a meeting to look it up himself...)
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post #499 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
Having used both MS VS is cheap for what it does. MS did not stint on providing good dev tools at an affordable price in comparison to the unix ide pricing when it first came out (hundreds vs thousands). In comparison to Eclipse or XCode, yes it's pricey but VS Express 2005 is free for a single language too.

That's good enough for most hobbiests.

VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).

Vinea

Having used Both MS VS (VS Pro 6 - through VS Pro 2005) and Developer tools (project builder through Xcode)... I enjoy XCode more. When I use MS VS I'm always doing MFC Applications. When I use XCode I'm doing carbon or cocoa projects. XCode is more robust, makes sense the way things are laid out, and is just as flexible to the needs of the language and needs of the developer. I think VS 2005 is huge overkill. M$ tried to kill too many birds with 1 stone. I actually feel more comfortable on .net 2003 than 2005. Either way, It's all a matter of flavor to the dev. I happen to feel FREE is a great price. And what does ADC / MSDN really get you??? A few tech support calls? Some hardware discounts (ADC)?? Beta updates??? We're comparing IDE's, not developer services.

 

 

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post #500 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).

Never seen the point in ADC membership. The stuff you need is free with a normal ADC membership.

Saying that, recently you can make back the $500 from ADC membership on a MacBookPro purchase through ADC so even that is essentially free.
post #501 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
How many seats is that MS Premium sub? (He asks, being too lazy and too late for a meeting to look it up himself...)

Just 1. That's the renewal price...the new Subscription price is $2299.95. Certainly that's more than XCode + Select and you don't get some of the nice bennies as Primere but eh.

It costs me more to learn ObjectiveC/Cocoa than $2K + iMac in terms of time and effort.

Vinea
post #502 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
...When I use MS VS I'm always doing MFC Applications. ...

That's the problem. If I had to do MFC again I'd be coding Java + OpenGL vs C# + MDX. .NET and managed code is sooo much nicer.

For MSDN it more than just tech calls. Its access to pretty much everything MS. For example, I wanted to try VirtualPC on my mac just to see how bad it sucked on a G4. I installed it from my MSDN DVDs and promptly said "Ugh, this is too slow" and removed it.

I was able to try 2005 beta from MSDN and that told me what I might need to do to go from .NET 1.1 to .NET 2.0 and why I'd want to.

I'm just a free ADC member so I don't know what's on the ADC disks but I would expect the same value added for a professional developer.

In terms of IDEs I prefer studio but that's personal preference more than anything else. Some folks prefer Eclipse over XCode because of the refactoring support. Whatever suits your fancy.

Yes, free is cheaper than $700.

Vinea
post #503 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
For MSDN it more than just tech calls. Its access to pretty much everything MS. For example, I wanted to try VirtualPC on my mac just to see how bad it sucked on a G4. I installed it from my MSDN DVDs and promptly said "Ugh, this is too slow" and removed it.

I actually love MFC compared to C#. I like getting down and dirty... but then again I try and put inline assembly in my code when I get a chance.

But yah, I used to do SQA and was on the MSDN program. This gave us every version of windows to test. It was good for what we needed... but in most cases I can't see an average developer really utilizing it.

 

 

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post #504 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
Just 1. That's the renewal price...the new Subscription price is $2299.95. Certainly that's more than XCode + Select and you don't get some of the nice bennies as Primere but eh.

I only ask because with the Select, my research group got five seed keys to hand out to team members. The Premiere comes with *ten* hardware discounts... obviously, it's more directed at groups than single seat licenses. When you look at it that way, it's not a 1:1 correlation on features *or* price.

*shrug*
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post #505 of 511
Can anyone comment on USB support on BootCamp? There is no mention on Apple's website about USB drivers. I assume Winblows built-in USB support is enough?
USB Mice, Printers, ThumbDrives, etc, work fine???
post #506 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Can anyone comment on USB support on BootCamp? There is no mention on Apple's website about USB drivers. I assume Winblows built-in USB support is enough?
USB Mice, Printers, ThumbDrives, etc, work fine???

Certain things have to work. Like the mouse and keyboard.
post #507 of 511
Originally posted by melgross
Certain things have to work. Like the mouse and keyboard.



Cool. I'm mainly wondering about thumbdrives and printers and scanners. I know printer drivers and scanner drivers are provided by the manufacturers, just wondering if printers and scanners do their USB thing alright via USB. Wading through the Apple Discussions doesn't seem to provide a clear indication.

I'm also wondering is Apple relying on WinXP2's built-in USB support or are they using their own drivers for USB support. Actually this is a bit of a dumb question because you need a USB mouse and keyboard to do the installs so this is *before* you use the Apple driver CD. Meaning USB support is probably at a deeper layer than a Windows driver.
post #508 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by melgross
Certain things have to work. Like the mouse and keyboard.



Cool. I'm mainly wondering about thumbdrives and printers and scanners. I know printer drivers and scanner drivers are provided by the manufacturers, just wondering if printers and scanners do their USB thing alright via USB. Wading through the Apple Discussions doesn't seem to provide a clear indication.

I'm also wondering is Apple relying on WinXP2's built-in USB support or are they using their own drivers for USB support. Actually this is a bit of a dumb question because you need a USB mouse and keyboard to do the installs so this is *before* you use the Apple driver CD. Meaning USB support is probably at a deeper layer than a Windows driver.

I seem to remember some reviews of this that said their printers did work. Ethernet works, of course. I think Firewire works, but I can't swear to that.

You might like this article.

http://www.computerworld.com/mobilet...110420,00.html
post #509 of 511
Sunil, Apple's Bluetooth keyboard and mouse also work.

They say it doesn't, but that may have been a mistake because you have to use wired models to INSTALL Boot Camp. They include Bluetooth drivers. Other Bluetooth items might work as well.
post #510 of 511
Yeah can't remember where I saw it but someone reported WinXP2 working fine with their Apple Bluetooth mouse and keyboard. Can't remember if they said Bluetooth mouse and keyboard was actually used during the WinXP2 install. Like you said maybe you probably can't use it when INSTALLING.
post #511 of 511
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Yeah can't remember where I saw it but someone reported WinXP2 working fine with their Apple Bluetooth mouse and keyboard. Can't remember if they said Bluetooth mouse and keyboard was actually used during the WinXP2 install. Like you said maybe you probably can't use it when INSTALLING.

I know that for sure. There are no drivers installed until Win is installed, AND Apple's driver disk is also installed.
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