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The Intel Powermac / Powermac Conroe / Mac Pro thread - Page 16

post #601 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
I WAS TALKING

ABOUT

WHAT I WANT

You know, some people get shot or stabbed in the face for repeatedly using caps lock to communicate on the internet.
post #602 of 947
Thread Starter 
Please stop gasping for attention by harassing me at every opportunity.

Alright? Thanks!
post #603 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Please stop gasping for attention by harassing me at every opportunity.

Alright? Thanks!

Ok...I'll leave you alone.
post #604 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Please stop gasping for attention by harassing me at every opportunity.

Alright? Thanks!

Is it O.K. if I harass you now that K.K.S is done?
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post #605 of 947
Thread Starter 
Yeah, that's alright.
post #606 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
I WAS TALKING

ABOUT

WHAT I WANT



The iMac is suitable for many people's needs and desires, but I'd rather have something a bit more expandable.

I know. That's why I said that it wasn't complete for you - or for me.

What's the problem?
post #607 of 947
Well intel is letting them all out of the bag shortly. Intel Processors @ Computex
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post #608 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Well intel is letting them all out of the bag shortly. Intel Processors @ Computex

Yeah, I'm very excited about it. Late tomorrow afternoon should be very interesting, after the presentations are over with, and the info. is all published.
post #609 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Ok...I'll leave you alone.

I'm disappointed in you now.
post #610 of 947
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I know. That's why I said that it wasn't complete for you - or for me.

What's the problem?

I guess I misunderstood your post, it seemed like you were arguing for the benefit of the iMac. I said nothing bad about the iMac; I simply said that it wasn't for me.
post #611 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
I guess I misunderstood your post, it seemed like you were arguing for the benefit of the iMac. I said nothing bad about the iMac; I simply said that it wasn't for me.

Sorry. The point I was making was that even though WE would not find it to be useful, others would, and as it sells so well, that's important.

I guess I should have written it differently.
post #612 of 947
Before you know it these two will be taking long showers together.


WWDC keynote is two months, and two days away, and on that note the reasons I think Apple will wait that long until delivering a new powerMac are many, but I will expand on a few.
#1) It will give Apple enough time to see what the other manufacturers are offering, and I hate that part of it because I always feel it gives Apple more room to do less with what they know rather than more.
#2) Testing the machines and getting all kinks out. Come on. We are talking about Macs. Apple designs the whole package for the reason that it always just works, and troubleshooting last minute hardware updates is just as extensive as working out the prototypes.
#3) When was the last time Steve Jobs said "Starts Shipping today" on a PowerMac?
#4) after you deduce the previous 3, if there are no problems in testing, it's possible that there is about 2 weeks from the time they are finished until WWDC. WWDC is their trademark event for the PM, and it is also where IBM, and Steve Jobs said 3GHz in a year. Apple will wait out the two weeks, and bring out the intel guy, and say with intel "THREE GHZ SHIPPING TODAY!"


BTW, that will be dual socket Dual core 3GHz.
My 2¢
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post #613 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Before you know it these two will be taking long showers together.

I almost spit out my Diet Mt. Dew all over my iMac screen with that comment!!

Also, you make very good points about the PM (or MP?) release. Almost too good of sense... Are you making plastics right now as we speak??

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-- Mike Eggleston
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-- Proud Member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals
-- Wii #: 8913 3004 4519 2027

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post #614 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Yeah, I'm very excited about it. Late tomorrow afternoon should be very interesting, after the presentations are over with, and the info. is all published.

It's d-day for Intel tomorrow. No more huffing and bluffing. It's time to show your cards Intel.
post #615 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Before you know it these two will be taking long showers together.


WWDC keynote is two months, and two days away, and on that note the reasons I think Apple will wait that long until delivering a new powerMac are many, but I will expand on a few.
#1) It will give Apple enough time to see what the other manufacturers are offering, and I hate that part of it because I always feel it gives Apple more room to do less with what they know rather than more.
#2) Testing the machines and getting all kinks out. Come on. We are talking about Macs. Apple designs the whole package for the reason that it always just works, and troubleshooting last minute hardware updates is just as extensive as working out the prototypes.
#3) When was the last time Steve Jobs said "Starts Shipping today" on a PowerMac?
#4) after you deduce the previous 3, if there are no problems in testing, it's possible that there is about 2 weeks from the time they are finished until WWDC. WWDC is their trademark event for the PM, and it is also where IBM, and Steve Jobs said 3GHz in a year. Apple will wait out the two weeks, and bring out the intel guy, and say with intel "THREE GHZ SHIPPING TODAY!"


BTW, that will be dual socket Dual core 3GHz.
My 2¢

What you've said does make some sense. I dont' think they could wait much longer depending upon what pc makers do. They don't want to look behind the curve. Actually most pc vendors seemed a little slow to adopt and promote ICD machines. Maybe this will be the case core 2 duo as well. I am actually more anxious to see an iMac update as a Powermac is really going to be more than I need.
post #616 of 947
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Before you know it these two will be taking long showers together.


WWDC keynote is two months, and two days away, and on that note the reasons I think Apple will wait that long until delivering a new powerMac are many, but I will expand on a few.
#1) It will give Apple enough time to see what the other manufacturers are offering, and I hate that part of it because I always feel it gives Apple more room to do less with what they know rather than more.
#2) Testing the machines and getting all kinks out. Come on. We are talking about Macs. Apple designs the whole package for the reason that it always just works, and troubleshooting last minute hardware updates is just as extensive as working out the prototypes.
#3) When was the last time Steve Jobs said "Starts Shipping today" on a PowerMac?
#4) after you deduce the previous 3, if there are no problems in testing, it's possible that there is about 2 weeks from the time they are finished until WWDC. WWDC is their trademark event for the PM, and it is also where IBM, and Steve Jobs said 3GHz in a year. Apple will wait out the two weeks, and bring out the intel guy, and say with intel "THREE GHZ SHIPPING TODAY!"


BTW, that will be dual socket Dual core 3GHz.
My 2¢

They can announce it as early as they want and even not be done with testing at the time of the announcement. That way they can queue everyone's orders up, get the Powermac G5s sold off at cheaper prices. You said that Apple has never shipped a Powermac right after it was announced; having an extra-early release date won't change this.
post #617 of 947
I have a question that is a little off topic, but a little on topic.

Conroe Vs. Woodcrest. One is a consumer chip and one is a "enterprise" (hate that word) chip. Is there ANY drawbacks besides price for using a server chip in a workstation? I know in the graphics world, You can take a NVidia Quadro chip and an equiv. Nvidia graphics chip and the Quadro will pounce on it for modeling and live rendering. But when it comes to plain jane games, the equiv. can actually out perform the Quadro chip for 1/10th of the price.

So what I am asking, is there times when a desktop chip can out perform a server chip??

 

 

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post #618 of 947
Both Conroe and Woodcrest will be used in Workstation.

Intel actually lists the Woodcrest chips as a Workstation/Server chip. The only thing that really differentiates the use is the motherboard. Server motherboards(5000P) won't have PCI-Express 16x. The workstation motherboards (5000x) will have PCI-Express 16x.

Apple HAS to use Woodcrest if they want to take the Mac Pro up to $3k and beyond. Everyone else will.

Conroe is going to make a very nice basic Server and Workstation CPU. You'll just give up on SMP and a bit on the FSB (1066MHz vs 1333MHz)
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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post #619 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
I have a question that is a little off topic, but a little on topic.
.....
So what I am asking, is there times when a desktop chip can out perform a server chip??

I assume you mean Conroe vs. Woodcrest.
It's like hmurchison said. It's mostly motherboard differences.
The woodcrest is just a high performance chip designed to be used in dual socket configurations.
Possibly in a small percentage of things if you use a single woodcrest (inadvisable) against a conroe. That smaller FSB in the conroe could take less time to execute in an app that is less dependent on memory, or has latency issues.
You wont find a single woodcrest in any manufacturers computers that has the slightest bit of brain running the show though.
Being that all new processors are dual core from this day foreword developers are going to have to take advantage of multiple processors in any way they can to stay in the game, or loose customers to developers with similar apps that are willing to exploit their programming weaknesses.

So I would say in the immediate future there may be some shareware that may, but for all intensive purposes apps that matter to the most of us will not be. And that is why we buy powerMac's.

To answer your question about the rendering thing, that is totally different. But it does not apply here really. Rendering is done by the CPU, not the GPU in 3D apps. The Quadro is designed for 3D apps, not 3D gaming, and has specialty drivers for a certain group of apps in particular. It's effect on rendering is about 0%, and it's gaming prowess is acceptable but not suited for Gaming because it's cycles are concerned with on screen rendering precise detail, not speed like a gaming card. The GPU is usually identical to the gaming card GPU though.
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post #620 of 947
Thread Starter 
I think they're releasing it in August because that's when the new mobos are coming out. Finally it makes sense.
post #621 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
To answer your question about the rendering thing, that is totally different. But it does not apply here really. Rendering is done by the CPU, not the GPU in 3D apps. The Quadro is designed for 3D apps, not 3D gaming, and has specialty drivers for a certain group of apps in particular. It's effect on rendering is about 0%, and it's gaming prowess is acceptable but not suited for Gaming because it's cycles are concerned with on screen rendering precise detail, not speed like a gaming card. The GPU is usually identical to the gaming card GPU though.

That was my point. IS the quadro is used for different things thing a consumer card... IE on screen rendering. I wasn't trying to mix the cpu / gpu thing. I was using the gpu as an example of when enterprise hardware can be slower than consumer hardware. And was wondering if the woodcrest could be slower than conroe in certain things.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #622 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
No. They did better than some analysts thought. That's not the same thing. Those analysts thought that it would do worse than the original Mini. They didn't say otherwise. Just that it did better than they though it would.

Link to analysts projections please. Otherwise this is just another thing you're pulling out of your ass.

Quote:
Look, really. Without numbers, numbers that apparently Apple won't give out, no one can do more than guess.

You can guess based on the data available. Or you can guess against the data available.

Quote:
Where did you see 50k sales expectation numbers for the quarter? Those numbers would have been a disaster! I didn't see those projections anywhere. The numbers I saw were 225 to 300k expectations, and about 225 to 250k reality.

Regarding Apple's recently-released iPod shuffle and Mac mini products, PiperJaffray said it estimates that the number of units sold greatly exceeded early projections. "We estimate total shuffle units for the March quarter were approximately 1.8m, compared to our 1.0m estimate," the firm said. An NPD metric for the month of February estimates the iPod shuffle captured a staggering 43 percent of the market share for flash-based music players, up from 0 percent in December. "We estimate total Mac mini units sold in the March quarter were 138k vs. our estimate of 50k. We believe the Mac mini is benefiting from iPod carry-over."

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1000

Quote:
For Amazon's market, yes. no doubt. But as we can see that Amazon's sales numbers don't corrispond to market reality, we can't say that the Apple rankings are comparable to their overall sales either. They are suggestive, I will give you that. But just how close do they come? We can't say. If the overall numbers are so far off, those may be as well. What kind of person is buying from Amazon? Does (s)he compare to the person buying from Apple? Or CompUsa? Or elsewhere? We don't know.

That all I'm saying. I love seeing those numbers, but I just don't know they they mean.

So you're going to steadfastly ignore the data that we have to believe in your completely unsupported assertion that the mini sales were lackluster in some way.

Quote:
No, it may not mean anything.

It means no less (and no more) than that the mini was popular on the one retailer that we have some visibility into. For you to say that mini sales are coming up short in some fashion goes against the data available so the burden of proof is on you to provide some compelling evidence (or any at all).

Quote:
You do this all the time, and not just with me. You use information that has no meaning for your argument, and then you insult me because I show that it doesn't. Then you get angry when I respond in kind.

The discussion is intel mini sales.

The verifiable information is the following:

* Initial mini sales exceeded expectations.

It would be logical to assume that analysts would less inclined to lowball future mini projections when they blew the estimates the first time around.

* Intel Mini sales exceeded expectations.

Piper Jaffray said this when the mini launched:

Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster said in a research note that Tuesday's releases were likely to be strong products, but were unlikely to materially affect Apple's growth. Future versions of the Mac Mini would likely be more specifically designed as home media hubs, he predicted."

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,3...9254951,00.htm

Also while analysts were wary of intel sales the actual predictions are thus for 2Q 2006:

"Wall Street analysts are forecasting sales of roughly 1.2 million Mac units in the quarter, up just slightly from the 1.07 million Macs Apple sold in the same quarter last year."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/18/tech.../apple_walkup/

Can you produce ANY evidence that initial intel mini sales were expected to be weak?

Especially since this particular analyst expected it as a media center offering.

"UBS analyst Reitzes, who predicts Macworld will be "a circus," agrees that a new Mac Mini could be imminent, "perhaps as a digital media device," he wrote in a recent note."

http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/20/technology/mac_preview/

AND he raised his price target and earning estimates and issued a "buy" recommendations.

http://www.security-protocols.com/mo...ticle&sid=3064

Yes, the most logical conclusion is that the analyst that raises earning estimates and thinks that the mini will be the first intel mac is also the same analyst that will project weak sales of the mini and gets surprised.

* Intel Mini ranked consistently high on Amazon until the introduction of the MacBook.

Which confirms what the analyst is saying, at least on that score.

So this information has no meaning to the dicussion and the refutation of your completely unsupported assertion that mini sales were hurt due to pricing and that they were lackluster in some undefinable fashion?

Angry? No. Frustrated? Slightly. Because calling you a pig-headed moron would be an ad hominem attack and I frown on those. Instead, I'll just provide links to refute your pig headed moronic arguments. I will continue to assume that you are an intelligent individual.

No matter how difficult.

Vinea
post #623 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Both Conroe and Woodcrest will be used in Workstation.

Intel actually lists the Woodcrest chips as a Workstation/Server chip. The only thing that really differentiates the use is the motherboard. Server motherboards(5000P) won't have PCI-Express 16x. The workstation motherboards (5000x) will have PCI-Express 16x.

Apple HAS to use Woodcrest if they want to take the Mac Pro up to $3k and beyond. Everyone else will.

Conroe is going to make a very nice basic Server and Workstation CPU. You'll just give up on SMP and a bit on the FSB (1066MHz vs 1333MHz)

Absolutely!

I'm getting nervious after the tech sites seem to be moving back to thinking Apple will use Conroe in the Mac Pro. It went from Conroe to Woodcrest, and now back to Conroe.

I just don't see how Apple can compete with a Conroe Pro machine at that level.
post #624 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Absolutely!

I'm getting nervious after the tech sites seem to be moving back to thinking Apple will use Conroe in the Mac Pro. It went from Conroe to Woodcrest, and now back to Conroe.

I just don't see how Apple can compete with a Conroe Pro machine at that level.

They wont. There is probably two months before an announcement, and they (media) have plenty of time to guess every possible configuration so they can quote it, and point back at a particular date, and say "as we predicted here"
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post #625 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
They wont. There is probably two months before an announcement, and they (media) have plenty of time to guess every possible configuration so they can quote it, and point back at a particular date, and say "as we predicted here"

That's true. Cover all the angles.
post #626 of 947
I still vote Mac Pro announcement later this month... with woodcrest. I also see an Xserve announcement... at the very least one of those will be announced this month.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #627 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I just don't see how Apple can compete with a Conroe Pro machine at that level.

Given that the tech sites have no more insight than anyone outside of Apple I dunno why anyone would be worried...especially since most folks would expect both chips to get used in workstations from single CPU Conroe's to dual CPU Woodcrests.

Dell did so with thier workstation lines prior to dual core Xeons. Single processor dual core Pentium 4 EE vs dual processor single core Xeons in their Precision 690 (or was it 490?) line.

Vinea
post #628 of 947
If Apple intros the Pro lineup in August, the Mac Pro towers better fuckin' be problem-free. Apple will have had 2 months to work out every problem...problems that would undoubtedly crop up if it released the Mac Pros on Woodcrest launch.

Sadly, it probably won't matter if Apple releases the Pro lineup at the end of June or late August...the computers will have their share of problems...that's why I'm hoping Apple will release these beasts on Woodcrest launch...because then I know the pros will give Apple a kick in the pants to fix the initial issues and I'll be able to buy a relatively problem-free tower in August.

Of course...the problems would probably be minor compared to laptop problems...desktop computer users don't have to worry about heat as much. Although, processor whines and buzzing would definitely not make me happy.
post #629 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea

Dell did so with thier workstation lines prior to dual core Xeons. Single processor dual core Pentium 4 EE vs dual processor single core Xeons in their Precision 690 (or was it 490?) line.

Vinea

True but that was the opening that AMD exploited to start gaining marketshare against Intel. Athlons and opterons were just way better. It is really quite interesting to see were conroe fits into Apple's plans.
post #630 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Sadly, it probably won't matter if Apple releases the Pro lineup at the end of June or late August...the computers will have their share of problems...that's why I'm hoping Apple will release these beasts on Woodcrest launch...because then I know the pros will give Apple a kick in the pants to fix the initial issues and I'll be able to buy a relatively problem-free tower in August.

Out of all the apple towers i've owned, i've never had 1 problem. I've had performa 6400, Powermac 9600, G3 Tower, Quicksilver G4 867, G4 dual 1.25, Dual 2.0 g5 (rev b). Why are you assumming they will have problems? I do know that the rev a g5's had a bit of problems... but i think that was a fluke because of a crappy cpu in the first place.

 

 

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post #631 of 947
Aren't problems associated with intel macs limited to the notebooks? Have their been issues with iMacs and minis with intel chips?
post #632 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
True but that was the opening that AMD exploited to start gaining marketshare against Intel. Athlons and opterons were just way better. It is really quite interesting to see were conroe fits into Apple's plans.

Yep...but since Apple is Intel only, what else would they use but Conroe for the low end single processor workstation. Dunno what you'd price it as though.

The same as a 17" iMac conroe? Trading the monitor for expansion capability?

Vinea
post #633 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
Out of all the apple towers i've owned, i've never had 1 problem. I've had performa 6400, Powermac 9600, G3 Tower, Quicksilver G4 867, G4 dual 1.25, Dual 2.0 g5 (rev b). Why are you assumming they will have problems? I do know that the rev a g5's had a bit of problems... but i think that was a fluke because of a crappy cpu in the first place.

I have had Rev A as well on many occations, and have never had a problem. Do you think we are just that lucky?

I don't. There are always fluke issues with a small percentage of anything you buy weather it be toasters, or MP3 players. I think it's usually a new guy in the line that screwed up the manufacturing process, and that's just because I see it all the time. FNG's have a tendency to let things go where experienced people correct mistakes on the spot.
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post #634 of 947
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
If Apple intros the Pro lineup in August, the Mac Pro towers better fuckin' be problem-free. Apple will have had 2 months to work out every problem...problems that would undoubtedly crop up if it released the Mac Pros on Woodcrest launch.

Sadly, it probably won't matter if Apple releases the Pro lineup at the end of June or late August...the computers will have their share of problems...that's why I'm hoping Apple will release these beasts on Woodcrest launch...because then I know the pros will give Apple a kick in the pants to fix the initial issues and I'll be able to buy a relatively problem-free tower in August.

Of course...the problems would probably be minor compared to laptop problems...desktop computer users don't have to worry about heat as much. Although, processor whines and buzzing would definitely not make me happy.

It's PC hardware made by a good company, none of that "Rev. A is worthless" bullshit. Apple has less control over the hardware design, it'll mostly be Intel. And since it's a standard ATX PC, milions of which have been manufactured for years, there probably won't be any novel form-factor induced problems.
post #635 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
It's PC hardware made by a good company, none of that "Rev. A is worthless" bullshit. Apple has less control over the hardware design, it'll mostly be Intel. And since it's a standard ATX PC, milions of which have been manufactured for years, there probably won't be any novel form-factor induced problems.

I know...I'm usually a "Rev. A is just as good as any rev"-proponent. But I guess the recent wave of heat issues and processor whines got to me (although I hear they aren't as widespread as they seem.)

But you're right that desktop PCs should generally have zero problems considering these are all standard parts in standard form factors with lots of breathing space.

That said, bring on the Woodcrests, Apple! My credit card is ready.
post #636 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
It's PC hardware made by a good company, none of that "Rev. A is worthless" bullshit. Apple has less control over the hardware design, it'll mostly be Intel. And since it's a standard ATX PC, milions of which have been manufactured for years, there probably won't be any novel form-factor induced problems.

That is about the most anti truth you could have posted.
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post #637 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
Yep...but since Apple is Intel only, what else would they use but Conroe for the low end single processor workstation. Dunno what you'd price it as though.

The same as a 17" iMac conroe? Trading the monitor for expansion capability?

Vinea

I may be misunderstanding your arguement. I envision Conroe as a prosumer level processor. IE in the iMac and perhaps an entry level workstation only. That may be stretching it a bit as even Apple's entry level workstation still fetches $1999. The more I think about it and see the performance numbers, MacPros really ought to be powered by Woodcrest.
post #638 of 947
Conroe will max out @ 2.93 Ghz atleast for a Quarter, i bet it will be in iMac

Woodcrest @ 3ghz (may be the highend model) will be in MacPro by WWDC, August.

Putting merom in the entire line, doesnot make sense

that defeat the purpose of aligning with Intel (different CPUs, Different prices, different purpose) compared to G4 & G5.

APPLE last time, not had this luxury... pricing difference will make the final say.

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post #639 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by shanmugam
[B]Conroe will max out @ 2.93 Ghz atleast for a Quarter, i bet it will be in iMac

If iMac gets Conroe, and I think it should, it won't be the 2.9 ghz version. That chip is $999. I think (hope) the entry level iMac gets the 2.4 ghz conroe($316) and the 20 in gets the 2.6 ghz conroe($530). These would still be impressive machines given the performance numbers posted at Anandtech. Link to Anand with prices on Conroe.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2771&p=6
post #640 of 947
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
If iMac gets Conroe, and I think it should, it won't be the 2.9 ghz version. That chip is $999. I think (hope) the entry level iMac gets the 2.4 ghz conroe($316) and the 20 in gets the 2.6 ghz conroe($530). These would still be impressive machines given the performance numbers posted at Anandtech. Link to Anand with prices on Conroe.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2771&p=6

I thought core 2 Extreme was woodcrest

 

 

Quote:
The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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Quote:
The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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