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The Intel Powermac / Powermac Conroe / Mac Pro thread - Page 22

post #841 of 947
6/27/06 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
What is this "Apple premium"? I hope this is just the premium you spend for not building your own, because unless you compared an Apple branded machine to a DELL, HP, or any other manufacturers computers with similar parts you should before you make such a statement.

The "apple premium" I refer to is the perceived expensiveness of apple hardware. You see, average computer buyers don't really look at "similar parts" they just look at the price for a complete system (being computer + screen + Keyb. + mouse). Now i could have gotten a complete system from dell for 763 including a 19" monitor (average joe remark: "and it has a faster processor too!" -P4 2.8 GHz)
I know just as well as you that, no, for the exact specifications apple really is not that much more expensive. The problem is average computer buyers simply don't look at the exact specifications because they have no idea what the exact specifications mean! Instead they just argue: "hell, I can get a complete computer from dell for hundreds less."

Reply: "but the apple has much better specs"
"the dell is fast enough for me!"
reply: "but it has no spyware and viruses and works great"
"I'm still not gonna pay ... hundred more for it!"

end of discussion.
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post #842 of 947
6/27/06 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally posted by dutch pear
The "apple premium" I refer to is the perceived expensiveness of apple hardware. You see, average computer buyers don't really look at "similar parts" they just look at the price for a complete system (being computer + screen + Keyb. + mouse). Now i could have gotten a complete system from dell for 763 including a 19" monitor (average joe remark: "and it has a faster processor too!" -P4 2.8 GHz)

Apple doesn't build that shit. They could care less about a sale or two to nitpickers that can easily build their own if they feeel their hardware is too much. They would rather make quality products.

Hey I could take a shit in a box, and throw a guaranteed sticker on the box and sell it to you, but then all you'd really have a guaranteed piece of shit.
-Chris Farley


It's like going to the store and buying what appears to be a can of mushrooms, but you open it, and it's actually a can of shit. If I were planting a flower bed that can of shit might be real handy, but I was trying to make mushroom soup, and my mushroom soup recipe does not call for shit.
Sure, some mushrooms grow on shit, so there is a slight relation, but I still by no means need shit in my soup.
~onlooker
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post #843 of 947
6/27/06 at 9:17am
Thread Starter 
No, you're under the misconception that Apple somehow means extraordinary build quality deserving of a $300+ premium. Frankly, lately build quality hasn't been too great. And second of all, the failure rate of home-built PCs is extraordinarily low in my experience.
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post #844 of 947
6/27/06 at 9:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
T;ftfy.

Mind translating your noteworthy thoughts? What I meant is, if somebody has to pay an extra $500 for a Mac over a PC (yes I know Macs run Windows hurrrrrr), they're going to buy a PC that runs Windows exclusively.
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post #845 of 947
6/27/06 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
No, you're under the misconception that Apple somehow means extraordinary build quality deserving of a $300+ premium. Frankly, lately build quality hasn't been too great.

I agree (and it's hard to disagree) that Apple's build quality in the past few years has been comparably bad.

Quote:
And second of all, the failure rate of home-built PCs is extraordinarily low in my experience.

It's hard to statistically prove or disprove that, seeing as home-built PCs are inherently custom, and particular configurations are thus rare, but in my experience (that being hundreds of computers that I built and/or maintained), the rate is significantly higher than that of decent brands.

Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Mind translating your noteworthy thoughts? What I meant is, if somebody has to pay an extra $500 for a Mac over a PC (yes I know Macs run Windows hurrrrrr), they're going to buy a PC that runs Windows exclusively.

And what I meant is, if somebody has been considering Macs for a while already, but always worried that they might end up preferring Windows anyway, they now have the chance to keep going back and forth without changing machines, thanks to Mactels / Boot Camp / Parallels / etc.

Even if the premium for that is $500, which I'd disagree with, it may be a worthwhile compromise.
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post #846 of 947
6/27/06 at 10:23am
Thread Starter 
Why the premium?
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post #847 of 947
6/27/06 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Why the premium?

What?
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post #848 of 947
6/27/06 at 10:28am
I'm sorry but unless you work for a full service reseller and have access to returns, defective info and the whole gamut any statement you make regarding build quality is tantamount to hearsay.

While Apple has had some highly publicized issues the majority of their computers are indeed a cut above what we see on the PC side.

#1 for Mac issues tends to be memory. We have very little issues with the LCD screens. Very few motherboards issues.

I find it odd that I'm still spending $2000 on PC laptops and getting VGA ports instead of DVI. I'm still getting 4-pin firewire instead of 6 pin powered.

Apple is not a Diet Computer Company. You get world class design and you do pay a premium. Some people see value in this and buy in others don't. More power to them.
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post #849 of 947
6/27/06 at 10:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
What?

Why do Apple products cost more?
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post #850 of 947
6/27/06 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
No, you're under the misconception that Apple somehow means extraordinary build quality deserving of a $300+ premium. Frankly, lately build quality hasn't been too great. And second of all, the failure rate of home-built PCs is extraordinarily low in my experience.

I'm not sure who you were talking to, or exactly what your getting at, but what I was originally referring to was that there is no premium. If you configure component to equal component the price is almost identical, and in the past 3 years I have been watching this I've seen Apples price less than DELL in that respect on a few occasions. So IMO the premium does not exist. But, the person I was quoting was talking about any machine with lesser quality, and/or lesser performing parts, that has a faster processor then can state "why is this one faster, but cheaper than a Mac?". My response was - Apple doesn't build machines like that. You always get a quality product. I don't see that as a premium. It's a correct value - part to part wise.
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post #851 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
What is this "Apple premium"? I hope this is just the premium you spend for not building your own, because unless you compared an Apple branded machine to a DELL, HP, or any other manufacturers computers with similar parts you should before you make such a statement. Because we have done this in here many times before, and in the past 3 years that I have noticed people doing it I have not seen any real escalated prices from Apple on anything they produce. It's a toss up IMO. Because some times they even had better prices than DELL comparatively.

Agreed. Apple being overpriced or higher priced is a very very tiresome argument. And it is often cited by otherwise knowledgeable people that should know better.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #852 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
That's not what I was talking about, so I guess you missed it.

If you look in this thread you'll see the first post I am on top with ZachPruckowski below me. THe thread was started by AppleInsider
Kasper's Automated Slave, who should have the top position because he started it, but for some reason I jumped all the way ahead of him in the order. I have the post was quoting in a quote which was the last post posted at the time. THat post is about #20, or so, so mine should haver been #21, but for strange reasons I was thrown up to spot #1. It did that to me all night.

I wasn't looking at that. The problem I had was that when I posted, it told me that I couldn't post less than 30 seconds apart, even though I hadn't posted for hours. Later, when I came back again,in addition to still having that problem, the time listed on the page was for 1.0.9 PM, even though it was actually 1.0.9 AM. Besides that, there were a lot of posts in my mailbox that weren't in the thread. That remained true today, even after I was able to post again. I then posted the reply that should have been posted yesterday.

This could have been part of the same problem.
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post #853 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:26am
Both Macnn and AI forums are having "time" issues that are jumbling the posts.
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post #854 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:36am
Apple's machines can cost more. But Apple has custom cases that are very expensive compared to PC cases. PC cases are basically off the shelf, except for the plastics, whick don't cost too much more to make. Apple's cases are entirely designed, and made for Apple. Each model has its own custom design. Apple also uses expensive materials in the manufacture of those cases. Polycarbonate costs several times the butylate, or other plastics commonly used. The heavy anodized aluminum Apple uses for the towers is several gauges heavier than the aluminum cases others use, and the handles and feet add to that cost.

Use cheaper cases, and $100 to $200 could come off the top.

And that's just the start.

Sadly, Apple has had some problems, but they are more of the nature of design than quality. When they try to make the thinnest, and lightest machines (portables), there are bound to be problems, such as heat. Other problems come because some area in the design doesn't perform in the field, with many machines, the way the few engineering samples did. That's not too uncommon. But Apple's fanatical secrecy prevents them from putting more samples into the hands of users before they go to production, so they don't catch everything.
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post #855 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Apple's machines can cost more. But Apple has custom cases that are very expensive compared to PC cases. PC cases are basically off the shelf, except for the plastics, whick don't cost too much more to make. Apple's cases are entirely designed, and made for Apple. Each model has its own custom design. Apple also uses expensive materials in the manufacture of those cases. Polycarbonate costs several times the butylate, or other plastics commonly used. The heavy anodized aluminum Apple uses for the towers is several gauges heavier than the aluminum cases others use, and the handles and feet add to that cost.

Use cheaper cases, and $100 to $200 could come off the top.

And that's just the start.

Sadly, Apple has had some problems, but they are more of the nature of design than quality. When they try to make the thinnest, and lightest machines (portables), there are bound to be problems, such as heat. Other problems come because some area in the design doesn't perform in the field, with many machines, the way the few engineering samples did. That's not too uncommon. But Apple's fanatical secrecy prevents them from putting more samples into the hands of users before they go to production, so they don't catch everything.

They more than make up for it with cheap labor, just joking.

I've seen too many price comparisons between Apple and other manufacturers. When compared feature for feature Apple is more than competitive and some times cheaper, as is the case with the mini and it's only close competition from AOpen(re: which in the case with AOpen the mini is/was? $100 cheaper)
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #856 of 947
6/27/06 at 6:30pm
Mac Pro
--------
Dual 2.33 Ghz Mac Pro - $1999
Dual 2.66 Ghz Mac Pro - $2499
Dual 3.00 Ghz Mac Pro - $2999

apart from this any chances of

Mac Cube
--------
Dual/Single 2.33 LV
250 GB -
512 MB - two slots
128 MB ATI Radeon XXX
Super Drive
$1699

possible?

Nov '09 | iMac 21.5" C2D 3.06 Ghz | Intel 330 240GB SSD | ATI

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Nov '09 | iMac 21.5" C2D 3.06 Ghz | Intel 330 240GB SSD | ATI

Sep '12| Toshiba 14" 1366 x 768! | i5 3rd Gen 6GB| Intel x25-m 120GB SSD | Win 7|  Viewsonic VX2255wmb 22" LCD
iPhone 4S| iPad 2 wifi

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post #857 of 947
6/27/06 at 7:05pm
I think dual-2.33 in the low end is out. Apple wants a reason to upgrade each step. With the current PMs, the first jump up gets you 250 GB more HDD, .3 GHz speed, and a non-crippled (but still subpar) video card. The next jump adds another dual-core processor.

In the Mac Pros, the first jump (from 2.0 to 2.33) can add a better video card (maybe a 7900GT versus 7800GT or 7800GT versus 7600). The second jump adds a lot of speed if it goes from 2.33 GHz to 3.0 GHz. I also don't think you can get quad 3.0 in $3000. Each 3.0 GHz processor will run about $800 or so.
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post #858 of 947
6/27/06 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally posted by shanmugam
Mac Pro
--------
Dual 2.33 Ghz Mac Pro - $1999
Dual 2.66 Ghz Mac Pro - $2499
Dual 3.00 Ghz Mac Pro - $2999

apart from this any chances of


Close but your prices are too low. I'd say you're prices may be feasible with a 2/2.33/2.66 span of speeds.

A dual Xeon 5160 would be $3499 at the very least. We're talking about $1600 of processors alone here.
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post #859 of 947
6/27/06 at 10:02pm
I agree. Your prices were too low. Mac Cube is unguessable because AFAIK it's been discontinued.
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post #860 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Close but your prices are too low. I'd say you're prices may be feasible with a 2/2.33/2.66 span of speeds.

A dual Xeon 5160 would be $3499 at the very least. We're talking about $1600 of processors alone here.

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archi...060626comp.htm

$851 Retail price rite, APPLE may be getting better discounts.

Dual 3.00 Ghz Mac Pro - $3299 - may be the high end remains same. I remember PM price increased when apple introduced Quad Machine, previously was it $2999?

When Dual core is new normal, i see the price doable or i could be wrong. More over apple like to show atleast one machine @ 3.0 Ghz

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Sep '12| Toshiba 14" 1366 x 768! | i5 3rd Gen 6GB| Intel x25-m 120GB SSD | Win 7|  Viewsonic VX2255wmb 22" LCD
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post #861 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Close but your prices are too low. I'd say you're prices may be feasible with a 2/2.33/2.66 span of speeds.

A dual Xeon 5160 would be $3499 at the very least. We're talking about $1600 of processors alone here.

I wonder what Apple actually pays. The prices we always see is for one bin 1,000 chips. Prices go down again for ten bins, and then again for 100. After that, I don't know. But Intel did say that they were dropping the manufacturer by manufacturer pricing they were using. I imagine that's because of the lawsuit.

While this isn't a Powermac/Conroe tidbit, I though it might be of interest. The next to last paragraph is what interests us.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32628
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post #862 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Why do Apple products cost more?

Some Google-fu.
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post #863 of 947
6/27/06 at 11:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Some Google-fu.

Heh!
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post #864 of 947
6/28/06 at 12:51am
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Close but your prices are too low. I'd say you're prices may be feasible with a 2/2.33/2.66 span of speeds.

A dual Xeon 5160 would be $3499 at the very least. We're talking about $1600 of processors alone here.

Here's some pricing info. no actual prices, but information on what Intel is doing now.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32650
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post #865 of 947
6/28/06 at 8:31am
I think the top-end will remain $3,299. But I think there's some possibility that Apple could lower prices on the bottom tier pro towers, making an incredible value over previous low-end pro towers in Apple's line-up.

My true hope, actually, is that Apple allows the customer like Dell is presently offering to their customers the ability to custom configure any model of the pro tower with one dual-core for an optional 2nd Dual Core Woodcrest processor. This would allow a lot of flexibility in the pricing, I would think.
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post #866 of 947
6/28/06 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally posted by DHagan4755
I think the top-end will remain $3,299. But I think there's some possibility that Apple could lower prices on the bottom tier pro towers, making an incredible value over previous low-end pro towers in Apple's line-up.

My true hope, actually, is that Apple allows the customer like Dell is presently offering to their customers the ability to custom configure any model of the pro tower with one dual-core for an optional 2nd Dual Core Woodcrest processor. This would allow a lot of flexibility in the pricing, I would think.

I'm thinking they will have to bring standard memory, and other BTO options way down just to make $3,499 on the 3GHz model. I think they'll try, and do whatever it takes. I always get my options like memory, and drives elsewhere anyway so it's no sweat off my back.
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post #867 of 947
6/28/06 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
I'm thinking they will have to bring standard memory, and other BTO options way down just to make $3,499 on the 3GHz model. I think they'll try, and do whatever it takes. I always get my options like memory, and drives elsewhere anyway so it's no sweat off my back.

Instead, I think that dual Xeon 5160 may be a BTO option (+ $500) for the top of the line Mac Pro, which I expect will contain dual 5150.
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post #868 of 947
6/28/06 at 11:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I wonder what Apple actually pays. The prices we always see is for one bin 1,000 chips. Prices go down again for ten bins, and then again for 100. After that, I don't know. But Intel did say that they were dropping the manufacturer by manufacturer pricing they were using. I imagine that's because of the lawsuit.

While this isn't a Powermac/Conroe tidbit, I though it might be of interest. The next to last paragraph is what interests us.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32628

Mind linking us to the article?
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post #869 of 947
6/28/06 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by mwswami
Instead, I think that dual Xeon 5160 may be a BTO option (+ $500) for the top of the line Mac Pro, which I expect will contain dual 5150.

That could work too, but I have not seen a BTO processor drop down from Apple in a long time. I'd rather get the less memory, and drive space though because Apple could offer a better price if they minimized the other options.
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post #870 of 947
6/28/06 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
That could work too, but I have not seen a BTO processor drop down from Apple in a long time. I'd rather get the less memory, and drive space though because Apple could offer a better price if they minimized the other options.

15 inch MBP? that has a BTO processor option.

Apple can afford to put together the rest of the Mac Pro for $1000 (See any of my breakdowns on this board). At $1600 for the processors, they can price it anywhere from $3000 to $3500 for the dual 3.0

Also, remember that the G5 could never get to 3 GHz. It's sort of a mythic line for Apple, after Steve got embarassed on that score. And there has to be a large jump over quad 2.5 G5s, which Quad 2.67 won't quite make.
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post #871 of 947
6/28/06 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by ZachPruckowski
15 inch MBP? that has a BTO processor option.

That's not what I mean. That is 2 MBP's in their own category on the page. Apple used to have drop down menus after you hit the configure button where you could select the processor the same way you upgrade your memory, and hard drives with the button options now.
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post #872 of 947
6/28/06 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by ZachPruckowski
15 inch MBP? that has a BTO processor option.

It temporarily did.
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post #873 of 947
6/28/06 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Mind linking us to the article?

It's from several different places. What part? I'll try to find it.

EDIT: I just realized that you might have meant the link I provided, so I tried it. You're right, it doesn't link directly to the article for some reason. I'll try again, and I hope that was what you were talking about.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32628

I hope that worked because the article did show up. If not, it's called "AMD and Dell sign deal for millions of chips". on the home page.
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post #874 of 947
6/28/06 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
It's from several different places. What part? I'll try to find it.

EDIT: I just realized that you might have meant the link I provided, so I tried it. You're right, it doesn't link directly to the article for some reason. I'll try again, and I hope that was what you were talking about.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32628

I hope that worked because the article did show up. If not, it's called "AMD and Dell sign deal for millions of chips". on the home page.

It works.
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post #875 of 947
6/28/06 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
It's from several different places. What part? I'll try to find it.

EDIT: I just realized that you might have meant the link I provided, so I tried it. You're right, it doesn't link directly to the article for some reason. I'll try again, and I hope that was what you were talking about.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32628

I hope that worked because the article did show up. If not, it's called "AMD and Dell sign deal for millions of chips". on the home page.

Lets hope Apple has a handbag full of good news from intel, and Nvidia because that looks to me like graphics powerhouses coming from DELL in the near future with an all AMD lineup. Now that DELL has Alienware they could be coming very strong in the near future. Better designers, better hardware - This could be an all new DELL.
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post #876 of 947
6/28/06 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Lets hope Apple has a handbag full of good news from intel, and Nvidia because that looks to me like graphics powerhouses coming from DELL in the near future with an all AMD lineup. Now that DELL has Alienware they could be coming very strong in the near future. Better designers, better hardware - This could be an all new DELL.

Please, don't make me shudder.

An interesting event happened to me last week.

I received a call from AmEx telling me that there was fraud on my card. Someone bought three pairs of Gucci loafers from Saks 5th Ave, and had them sent to a third party's address. That didn't bother me too much. But, I was also told that that same someone also had sent to another address $3,000 dollars worth of equipment bought from Dell.

When I asked how they knew it was fraud, in addition to the third party address, I was told that they didn't think that it was me, because I'm always buying from Apple and other Mac related sites.

Amazing.

p.s. they caught it in time, so the stuff didn't get delivered, and I now have a new card number memorized!
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post #877 of 947
6/28/06 at 7:08pm
DELL can't change. Dell's main competition is Gateway and HP for all the low-end stuff that make up the majority of it's sales. Dell needs that for the market share advantages. Granted, high-end systems are the most profitable, but Dell can't change on the low-end because low-end Windows x86 computers are commodities now. There is barely any difference between the Dell one and the Gateway one (unless it's an AMD model vs a Intel model). Dell has to deal with the fact that of it's huge (sort of) marketshare, most of it is in the no-profit sub-$800 computer range. By contrast, Apple has a market share of 3% or whatever, but it's the good 3% (mostly computers over $1000, which have a higher margin).

Dell would have to accept a major marketshare cut to do any real re-inventing. And shareholders would balk at that.

Speaking of this, are there marketshare numbers broken down by computer price? Because I can't find them, just overall numbers.
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post #878 of 947
6/28/06 at 9:53pm
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
When I asked how they knew it was fraud, in addition to the third party address, I was told that they didn't think that it was me, because I'm always buying from Apple and other Mac related sites.

That's awesome.
The secret of life: Proteins fold up and bind things.
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The secret of life: Proteins fold up and bind things.
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post #879 of 947
6/28/06 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by benzene
That's awesome.

Yeah, pretty amazing. AmEx is good about that.
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post #880 of 947
6/28/06 at 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Lets hope Apple has a handbag full of good news from intel, and Nvidia because that looks to me like graphics powerhouses coming from DELL in the near future with an all AMD lineup. Now that DELL has Alienware they could be coming very strong in the near future. Better designers, better hardware - This could be an all new DELL.

AMD has nothing planned in hardware that is likely to worry Intel. Intel's LG771(Dempsey/Woodcrest) is up to the challenge.

Dell is an interesting subject. I personally feel that the Alienware acquisiton doesn't help Dell at all. Man if guys could only see the grief that HP and IBM are putting on Dell you would laugh. Both cought up additional funds if the deal is against Dell. Thus you have an understanding why Dell isn't putting up the same numbers.

Apple will compete fine in this space because the margins are better and Apple has a a more narrow focus on workstation centered around A/V work.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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