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News Brief: Apple ramps MacBook production - Page 2

post #41 of 149
5/5/06 at 4:25pm
I prefer proportional displays. It makes presentations a lot easier because I can use true mirroring (think about native resolution on the built-in LCD versus non-native). I have a 14" iBook and love it. I am probably upping to a MacBook Pro here soon, but I would consider a 14" unit if it came out.

I wonder if the low-end MacBook will also be "hindered" at the factory to boot slower than the Pro model, much in the same way that iBooks supposedly are.
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post #42 of 149
5/5/06 at 4:40pm
I'm forseeing two models, one an iBook replacement and one a 12" PB replacement. Based on the Mini, I don't see a Core Duo going into a laptop for less than $1099. Nor non-integrated graphics only a model less than $1599, and even then I doubt Apple with match the MBP card (128 MB X1600). And it's probably safe that base specs will not surpass the $1999 MBP (i.e. 512 MB RAM and 80 MB HD). But Apple might sweeten the low-end with a Superdrive - they're cheap enough now. So:

$1099
1.66 Core Duo
512 MB / 40 GB
GMA950 64MB
Superdrive
All the new goodies, but still no spanning.

$1599
1.66 Core Duo
512 MB / 60 GB
X1600 64 MB (or whatever)
Superdrive
All the new goodies, spanning enabled.

Maybe it's a little pessimistic, because I still want my MBP to look good afterwards. But I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
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post #43 of 149
5/5/06 at 5:10pm
Dell has a dual core notebook in the ~$600 range. I expect a MacBook to be $999 or less.

Who cares about integrated graphics on a 13" notebook? Yeah, that will start a holy war but really guys/gals, for the few that do I don't see how you run FCP on the things (cause we know Macs are not for gamers).
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post #44 of 149
5/5/06 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by JamesG
I prefer proportional displays. It makes presentations a lot easier because I can use true mirroring (think about native resolution on the built-in LCD versus non-native). I have a 14" iBook and love it. I am probably upping to a MacBook Pro here soon, but I would consider a 14" unit if it came out.

Proportional to what? If you mean to common projection equipment, then I don't see the problem with the rumored display resolution, it should support up to XGA projectors without dropping detail. Apple's display properties panel seems to properly set the aspect ratio on mirroring with displays of different native resolutions.
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post #45 of 149
5/5/06 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally posted by aplnub
Dell has a dual core notebook in the ~$600 range. I expect a MacBook to be $999 or less.

Who cares about integrated graphics on a 13" notebook? Yeah, that will start a holy war but really guys/gals, for the few that do I don't see how you run FCP on the things (cause we know Macs are not for gamers).


You can expect all you want, but it's not gonna happen.. Do the math.

Core-duo Mac mini is $799 and has the lowest profit margin of any computer Apple has ever sold.

So if you keep the same components of the mini and you add the additional costs of a MacBook like the 13 widescreen LCD which is $143, plus the iSight camera and mag-safe connector you will understand why It can't happen.

Mini increased $100, the MacBook will also increase $100 minimum.

You will always be able to find a cheaper Dell...
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post #46 of 149
5/5/06 at 5:30pm
I bought my PowerBook 12" back when the iBook was still a G3 and that really WAS a reason to go Pro! But yes, when the G4 iBook came out the PB12 was always challenged from below. Add the horribly slow pace of Freescale's G4 clockspeed increases and we reach the situation as it is now.

For someone who does a lot of writing though, that keyboard has served me three tough years well.

I expect the sub-15" form factor will ONLY have MacBooks to chose from and not MacBook Pros. This removes the overlap and establishes a clear divide between the two ranges which everyone can understand. More bucks, more bang.

As for MacBook predictions, count me in as integrated graphics on all of them and Core Duo at the top with maybe a Core Solo for the magic $999 learning from the Mac Mini's comparatively lacklustre sales. From the numbers I've seen though, the Solo isn't all that much cheaper, so maybe it can be pulled off for the base model. Depends on how much secret lovin' Intel has to spread around!

Of course I can still dream about a super compact Mac laptop. But that one's probably as far out as the mystical Tablet!
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post #47 of 149
5/5/06 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
You can expect all you want, but it's not gonna happen.. Do the math.

Core-duo Mac mini is $799 and has the lowest profit margin of any computer Apple has ever sold.

So if you keep the same components of the mini and you add the additional costs of a MacBook like the 13 widescreen LCD which is $143, plus the iSight camera and mag-safe connector you will understand why It can't happen.

Mini increased $100, the MacBook will also increase $100 minimum.

You will always be able to find a cheaper Dell...

The Solo Core Mac Mini is $599. Why would you assume the low end MacBook has a Core-Duo?
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post #48 of 149
5/5/06 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
Mini increased $100, the MacBook will also increase $100 minimum.

While possible, it doesn't necessarily work that way. The best I can figure on the mini is that they just dropped the model without wireless.

The new base mac mini has by default, Bluetooth and Wifi. This pair was a $100 option on the old $499 mini, which didn't have any wireless by default.

I'm curious how you know the margins of the Core Duo Mac mini. I'd think that the Core Solo mini would have the lowest margins.
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post #49 of 149
5/5/06 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
You can expect all you want, but it's not gonna happen.. Do the math.

Core-duo Mac mini is $799 and has the lowest profit margin of any computer Apple has ever sold.

So if you keep the same components of the mini and you add the additional costs of a MacBook like the 13 widescreen LCD which is $143, plus the iSight camera and mag-safe connector you will understand why It can't happen.

Mini increased $100, the MacBook will also increase $100 minimum.

You will always be able to find a cheaper Dell...

Mark it down. $999 or less for a dual core. Remind me about this in a few weeks and we will see how right I was.
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post #50 of 149
5/5/06 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by aplnub
Dell has a dual core notebook in the ~$600 range. I expect a MacBook to be $999 or less.

Which one? And $500-off-any-laptop coupons don't count. I've surfed around Dell, out of curiousity, to see how the MBP stacked up. Not all their lines offer Cores yet, and those that do start in the $700 to $800 range for Solos and Duos, respectively, with stripped-down configs on low-end lines. A decent model spec'd out to match a MBP matched its price as well. No reason to expect different with the MacBook.
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post #51 of 149
5/5/06 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
Which one? And $500-off-any-laptop coupons don't count. I've surfed around Dell, out of curiousity, to see how the MBP stacked up. Not all their lines offer Cores yet, and those that do start in the $700 to $800 range for Solos and Duos, respectively, with stripped-down configs on low-end lines. A decent model spec'd out to match a MBP matched its price as well. No reason to expect different with the MacBook.

That was with a $200 off instant rebate (I will have to hunt it down as it was my neighbor who found it). It is hard to find anything on their website. He is out of town but I will ask him Sunday night. He was about to order one and was commenting that Apple charged premium prices. I didn't believe until I saw it. I was thinking it was $599 with rebate.
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post #52 of 149
5/5/06 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by aplnub
Mark it down. $999 or less for a dual core. Remind me about this in a few weeks and we will see how right I was.

Not trying to pick a fight with you but, if you look at how the intel replacement models were priced compared to the previous ppc models they are the same or in the mini's case higher. I think $999 is as low as it can go. If Apple add features that the ppc models didn't have, I think they (Macbook) will cost more than the model they replace.

Many speculated that when Apple went to Intel chips prices would come down. So far that hasn't been the case. Apple has added features and enhanced perfromance but prices really are unchanged.
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post #53 of 149
5/5/06 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
Not trying to pick a fight with you but, if you look at how the intel replacement models were priced compared to the previous ppc models they are the same or in the mini's case higher. I think $999 is as low as it can go. If Apple add features that the ppc models didn't have, I think they (Macbook) will cost more than the model they replace.

Many speculated that when Apple went to Intel chips prices would come down. So far that hasn't been the case. Apple has added features and enhanced perfromance but prices really are unchanged.

I know you are not picking a fight.

IMHO they are shooting for same pricing as PPC models. With new chips around the corner, more supply, and better yeilds the MacBooks will have the same pricing or less when they roll in as the current iBooks. I am being optimistic and predicting a possible decrease in price but the realist says they will have a dual core for $999.

Besides, the notebook market is very price sensitive from my experiences talking with owners. They really want them to be super cheap for some reason, especially students.
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post #54 of 149
5/5/06 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally posted by iPeon
The Solo Core Mac Mini is $599. Why would you assume the low end MacBook has a Core-Duo?

From the article which we are discussing:

"Each MacBook is expected to sport Core Duo processors from Intel Corp and pack novelties such as a completely magnetic latching system, built in iSight video camera, and MagSafe power adapter. Additionally, each MacBook is expected to come bundled with Apple's Front Row and PhotoBooth software applications. "
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post #55 of 149
5/5/06 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
While possible, it doesn't necessarily work that way. The best I can figure on the mini is that they just dropped the model without wireless.

The new base mac mini has by default, Bluetooth and Wifi. This pair was a $100 option on the old $499 mini, which didn't have any wireless by default.

I'm curious how you know the margins of the Core Duo Mac mini. I'd think that the Core Solo mini would have the lowest margins.

I believe the article I read was either from this site or MDN, I will look for it and post.... In a nutshell, the article was soon after the mini was released.. It was disected with a breakdown cost analysis for all the components used.. The result was that the core-duo mini had the lowest profit margin of any Apple computer ever.. The core-solo actually had a higher profit margin.

It was also recently published (from this site) that the new 13" widescreen LCD that the MacBook will use costs more than the current 13" iBook LCD.. The price is $143.

I do realize that wifi and bluetooth were added as standard to the mini, but the Intel chips are still more expensive than the G4, especially the core-duos.

Mark my words, with the Intel core-duo, 13" widescreen LCD, mag-safe connector, iSight, and remote control all added to the cost of the current iBook.. There's no way that it will come in at $999.00.
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post #56 of 149
5/5/06 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
There's no way that it will come in at $999.00.

See you back here in a few days. I love a high noon showdown.
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post #57 of 149
5/5/06 at 8:34pm
Quote:
Originally posted by aplnub


Besides, the notebook market is very price sensitive from my experiences talking with owners. They really want them to be super cheap for some reason, especially students.

I agree with you here. That's why, except for iSight, the new features that are being mentioned, only seem to add unnecessary cost IMO. Does someone looking for a low cost notebook need a magnetic latch and a magsafe powercord? I would have put in a cheap reliable latch and a cheap standard power source so as to keep cost as low as possible. I don't see these features as being that important to the typical buyer of this machine.
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post #58 of 149
5/5/06 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
I agree with you here. That's why, except for iSight, the new features that are being mentioned, only seem to add unnecessary cost IMO. Does someone looking for a low cost notebook need a magnetic latch and a magsafe powercord? I would have put in a cheap reliable latch and a cheap standard power source so as to keep cost as low as possible. I don't see these features as being that important to the typical buyer of this machine.

My guess is that Apple will keep the $999 and $1299 price points--which shouldn't be too hard if you factor in the price cuts on the Core Duos which have been rumored to happen (have happened?) in May. (I had considered, though, Apple bumping up prices to $1299 and $1499--who knows, maybe significantly more people buy the current $1299 iBook versus the $999 iBook, enough so they could drop that price point?)

That said, while magsafe and magnetic latches aren't exactly super-necessary, despite what Steve says, Apple isn't just about software--it needs its hardware to be differentiated, too. (Beyond just looks.) So, while neither of those two are the cheapest options, they do go towards creating for the customer an important part of the "Apple experience"--convenience.
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post #59 of 149
5/5/06 at 9:26pm
I don't understand where the disbelief of a $999 pricepoint is coming from.

Granted it's Lenovo but.... $899 for a 14.1 ICD 1.66Ghz computer ain't half bad. If we allow Apple a %10 premium markup we're still at less than $999.

This doesn't mean that I think Apple will actually have a $999 model. I see them having a $1099 model that's spec'd well enough.
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post #60 of 149
5/5/06 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
I agree with you here. That's why, except for iSight, the new features that are being mentioned, only seem to add unnecessary cost IMO. Does someone looking for a low cost notebook need a magnetic latch and a magsafe powercord? I would have put in a cheap reliable latch and a cheap standard power source so as to keep cost as low as possible. I don't see these features as being that important to the typical buyer of this machine.


...so it would be cheaper to design a whole new latch and power plug ?
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I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
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post #61 of 149
5/5/06 at 10:27pm
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
I agree with you here. That's why, except for iSight, the new features that are being mentioned, only seem to add unnecessary cost IMO. Does someone looking for a low cost notebook need a magnetic latch and a magsafe powercord? I would have put in a cheap reliable latch and a cheap standard power source so as to keep cost as low as possible. I don't see these features as being that important to the typical buyer of this machine.

Apple isn't a company that uses cheap parts to lower costs. If they were, I doubt all of us here would be talking about an upcoming product with such anticipation.
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post #62 of 149
5/5/06 at 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Ireland
Just a thought but if there was a press conference next tuesday, wouldn't the press need to be invited\

haha, good point!
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post #63 of 149
5/5/06 at 11:25pm
Just show me the stuff!
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post #64 of 149
5/6/06 at 12:50am
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
Why? Is there a particular reason that doesn't involve the fact that you are a shareholder? Or do you think the quality would go down a bit as a result? Or is it something else?

I wouldn't mind seeing a lower starting price, but knowing Apple, I really doubt it would happen. I would call it a fantasy.

Shareholder? What does that have to do with it? As a shareholder, I would like Apple to do what is necessary to make the company grow at a good pace, and manage a good profit, with acceptable margins, and to be able to do it without sacrificing the companies future.

Is that what most people here would want as well?

I'm repeating the discussions we've had a few months ago. You might remember the excitement that so many here had about that $799 iBook. I think that you were happy about it as well. I had expressed skepticism about it at the time, because Apple paid so little for the G4's (and the G5's) that I said that Intel's prices might not allow it, but I was put down for that.

All I'm saying now, is that I hope Apple doesn't have to raise the price above $999, because raising the price of the Mini has hurt sales. I don't think anyone here wants that to happen to the MacMook as well.

With prices of PC laptops below even $699, an Apple MacBook at $1099 will be a hard sell.
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post #65 of 149
5/6/06 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
Considering that they will be adding the iSight cam, mag-safe connector, a more expensive 13 widescreen LCD and a more expensive core-duo processor, I'd say chances are extremely slim that the price-point will remain at $999.

Afterall the Mac mini price increased $100.. Expect the MacBook price to increase a minimum of $100 too.

Don't be so sure. Despite the rumors, there is no guarantee they will use a Duo chip, and the extra requirements that would require, for the bottom machine.

And, this is such an important model for Apple that they might feel it's necessary to keep the pricing the same.
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post #66 of 149
5/6/06 at 12:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by iPeon
The Solo Core Mac Mini is $599. Why would you assume the low end MacBook has a Core-Duo?

They're assuming it because these RUMORS articles always come true, right?
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post #67 of 149
5/6/06 at 1:02am
Quote:
Originally posted by mark2005
In Apple's Hot News, they include the E3 Expo event on 10-12 May. That is generally known as a gaming event, and given the status of games on the Mac, Apple's presence does seem a bit odd.

So possibly Apple is planning to release the MacBook either the day before or at the Expo with a simple press release. And then use the gathering at the Expo to show it off, though not as a gaming solution (unless you use Boot Camp).

I was at Apple's E3 booth 2 years ago. It was my best 15 minutes of the whole E3. Sure there was a lot of exciting new games to look at, but relaxing in the Apple room was just pure pleasure. Uptodate Apple stuff all around, sofas and chilling music and a veggie tapas buffet, and friendly smiles and good mood all around. I wanted to stay just to chill, but then I had to get back to our booth in the big hall again. Crazy place with screaming people and screaming machines.

Offtopic:
This year I'd love to go see the Nintendo Wii despite all that screaming. To connect the Wii controller to a Mac would be awesome. I hope there is a way to run homebrew software on the Wii that can communicate the Wii controller's movements via network to a computer. Would be a great help in animation and 3D.
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post #68 of 149
5/6/06 at 1:05am
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
I agree with you here. That's why, except for iSight, the new features that are being mentioned, only seem to add unnecessary cost IMO. Does someone looking for a low cost notebook need a magnetic latch and a magsafe powercord? I would have put in a cheap reliable latch and a cheap standard power source so as to keep cost as low as possible. I don't see these features as being that important to the typical buyer of this machine.

Those features cost less than you might think. If they are the same as the ones for the MBP, then Apple will save money by having one design and one stock number for each. It will cost less to buy them as well, because of the greater numbers being produced. It's the other features that are the problem, cost wise.
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post #69 of 149
5/6/06 at 1:12am
Quote:
Originally posted by aplnub
That was with a $200 off instant rebate (I will have to hunt it down as it was my neighbor who found it). It is hard to find anything on their website. He is out of town but I will ask him Sunday night. He was about to order one and was commenting that Apple charged premium prices. I didn't believe until I saw it. I was thinking it was $599 with rebate.

The last time I saw ANY Dell laptop that cheap was after a big rebate and it wasn't a Duo, but a Solo. Its actually advertised on tv right now. Solo totally different ballgame.
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post #70 of 149
5/6/06 at 1:53am
I hope for apple, that they will soon have an equivalent PB12 with Intel processor. Because there is a huge market for roadwarriors who need a lightweight, powerful, enduring Notebook. Maybe a sub-3-pound 11-13 Inch device like some VAIO.
The 13 Macbook won't have all the features necessary for this target group, because it will need to be priced aggressively ($1000)to compete agains all those Dell/Samsung/HP Mainstream Notebooks.
Also it would be nice if they introduced a 15" Macbook at sub $1500, which would be heavier, bigger, dimmer and less powerfull than a $2000 Macbook Pro.
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post #71 of 149
5/6/06 at 2:00am
People basing price projections of the MacBook on the current model of iBooks, like,

Quote:
Considering that they will be adding the iSight cam, mag-safe connector, a more expensive 13 widescreen LCD and a more expensive core-duo processor, I'd say chances are extremely slim that the price-point will remain at $999.

are misled. Apple has been selling that model at this price point since august last year, hence the components are probably not that decisive when Apple is setting the prices. Also, Apple will probably have landed a good price on that 13,3" screen. The core duo will also be cheaper for them to acquire, as it is finding its way into consumer machines in many pc portables. The iSight is not that expensive, since its based on cheaper tech than the external model, and the magsafe is an Apple-internal developed tech, making it not that expensive. Thus, if Apple wants to compete in the low end portable market they could easily stay at the current price levels.


.. Oh, and incidentally I just sold my old iBook today, at just under 1000US$.
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post #72 of 149
5/6/06 at 3:18am
999$ for a Core Duo 1.66GHz with integrated graphics and I'm buying it.

Integrated graphics makes the most sense on a 13" MacBook (especially the low end one) since most people won't be doing any hardcore gaming on it. The screen is too small (IMO) for gaming...and these suckers will be used mainly for school work or other non-gaming activities.

It would make no sense to stick a graphics card in there and up the price point by 100-200$.

Heck...integrated graphics makes on the MacBook makes more sense than integrated graphics on the Mac mini. People are more likely to game with the Mac mini than with the MacBook.

If Apple ships a 999$ MacBook that's at least a Core Duo...I'm buying it.
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post #73 of 149
5/6/06 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
All I'm saying now, is that I hope Apple doesn't have to raise the price above $999, because raising the price of the Mini has hurt sales. I don't think anyone here wants that to happen to the MacMook as well.

With prices of PC laptops below even $699, an Apple MacBook at $1099 will be a hard sell.

In the post I quoted, it sounded like you didn't want a sub $999 price. It looks like I misunderstood.
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post #74 of 149
5/6/06 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally posted by DeaPeaJay
Apple isn't a company that uses cheap parts to lower costs. If they were, I doubt all of us here would be talking about an upcoming product with such anticipation.

Unless it is a Maxtor hard drive. At least those are easily replacable, unless you have any Mac that isn't a tower.
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post #75 of 149
5/6/06 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Dirk
My guess is that Apple will keep the $999 and $1299 price points--which shouldn't be too hard if you factor in the price cuts on the Core Duos which have been rumored to happen (have happened?) in May. (I had considered, though, Apple bumping up prices to $1299 and $1499--who knows, maybe significantly more people buy the current $1299 iBook versus the $999 iBook, enough so they could drop that price point?)

That said, while magsafe and magnetic latches aren't exactly super-necessary, despite what Steve says, Apple isn't just about software--it needs its hardware to be differentiated, too. (Beyond just looks.) So, while neither of those two are the cheapest options, they do go towards creating for the customer an important part of the "Apple experience"--convenience.

I hope you are right and my concerns will have been ill founded. The $999 price point is important, IMO, for this machine. Have other configs at higher prices, but I think it's important to keep $999 as the starting point. Otherwise I think some buyers won't even look at Apple. With the problems MS is having with Vista don't give buyers a reason NOT to look at Apple.
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post #76 of 149
5/6/06 at 7:27am
i want one config @ alu casing $1499,
or all the config @ alu casing, that will be sweet!

i love that alu keyboard, so nice to type on it...

Nov '09 | iMac 21.5" C2D 3.06 Ghz | Intel 330 240GB SSD | ATI

Sep '12| Toshiba 14" 1366 x 768! | i5 3rd Gen 6GB| Intel x25-m 120GB SSD | Win 7|  Viewsonic VX2255wmb 22" LCD
iPhone 4S| iPad 2 wifi

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Nov '09 | iMac 21.5" C2D 3.06 Ghz | Intel 330 240GB SSD | ATI

Sep '12| Toshiba 14" 1366 x 768! | i5 3rd Gen 6GB| Intel x25-m 120GB SSD | Win 7|  Viewsonic VX2255wmb 22" LCD
iPhone 4S| iPad 2 wifi

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post #77 of 149
5/6/06 at 7:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross

All I'm saying now, is that I hope Apple doesn't have to raise the price above $999, because raising the price of the Mini has hurt sales. I don't think anyone here wants that to happen to the MacMook as well.

I also remember the introduction of the Mac mini, when Jobs stood on stage and talked about how they wanted to build a sub $500 desktop because it was a "sweet spot".. Well, that didn't last long.

What data do you have that shows mini sales are hurting?
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post #78 of 149
5/6/06 at 8:22am
Why do Apple have 2 types of keyboard - for the iBook / MacBook Pro?
Videos for your iPod
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post #79 of 149
5/6/06 at 8:54am
I see Apple keeping a $999 price point, especially after everyone bitched so much about them dropping the low end Mini price. Also, after seeing the integrated graphics on the $799 Mini, you can probably bet that the $999 MacBook will have them also.

I don't think Apple is in business to shoot for the bottom of the barrel in terms of unit price. Who cares if Dell has a $300 desktop or a $600 laptop. I wouldn't buy them anyway because I'd have to run Windows and IMHO they look like shit compared to Apple's computers. Right now Apple is trying to find a medium in which they can don't have to sacrifice their margins but can still deliver a quality product at a price consumers will still pay.
MacBook Pro 15" 2.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR3 SDRAM, 500GB HDD
Mac mini 2.26 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR3 SDRAM, 320GB HDD
iPod 5th Generation, 30GB
iPhone 4, 32GB
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MacBook Pro 15" 2.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR3 SDRAM, 500GB HDD
Mac mini 2.26 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR3 SDRAM, 320GB HDD
iPod 5th Generation, 30GB
iPhone 4, 32GB
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post #80 of 149
5/6/06 at 9:19am
It's mid 2006 - a $1000 laptop should not have a combo drive !!! I would be VERY surprised if the price stayed the same as the iBook, so I would be even more disappointed to see a $1100/$1200 with a combo drive !!
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