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were a bit older than we think!

post #1 of 53
Thread Starter 
http://freeinternetpress.com/modules...ticle&sid=6812

where's dmz Now we have four explanations of the universe. I bet he's wetting his pants! hows that (for a) p-brane?

hey sego, looks like god is very old and infinite.

remember a while ago, I said that the size of the universe is zero in every direction, and our 3 spatial dimensions are illusions of travelling slower than light.

Well, before science confirms that, first we will discover that Quantum interactions are not random, they confirm to Chaos Theory.

Crackpot, Over and Out.
post #2 of 53
Funny, I was going to start a thread called Vatican: creationism is a crock of [@!*#] or something similar when I saw this one.

Great minds and all that.

Great theory. Religion is really in the last death throes now. I think a hundred years will do it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #3 of 53
Thread Starter 


it must be the lack of sleep, but that Vatican article is just so funny, so true and yet so perverse all at the same time.

Sometimes I just cant get my head around these guys. What gives with them?

I mean take the quote "Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer"

should I laugh or cry at that?
post #4 of 53
Thread Starter 
post #5 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
sego, did you see this one?

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?...&id=2324222005


Hahahaha - I hope someone is telling God that key changes have been made to the Universe. Or else apologizing to God (and more importantly everyone else) for lying about it all along.

I hope those babies show up and are real mad.

Really someone should do something about these jokers. It's just silly now - he even looks like something out of the Naked Gun in that photo.

Is it me or does he look like he's in 'declining health'?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 53
A couple of questions:

1. Hasn't this Big-bang...Big-crunch...Big-bang theory been around for as long as the Big Bang theory itself?

2. What evidence do they offer for it, and where does this one trillion number come from?

3. Does time even really exist when the universe is only a singularity, between the bang and the crunch?
post #7 of 53
Thread Starter 
from linked article (limbo)

"He said that the reason the Catholic Church was clarifying its position was that people still wrongly perceived heaven as a place and not as a state of being"

You know, i know you really dont like Catholicism (I presume), but I wonder, they obviously know the roots and origins of their history - and again with the Creationist article - there does appear to be two odd sides to Catholicism. Almost as soon as one spokesman gives an argument - another will give the opposite view.

For instance, this astromer has said creationism is paganism, but it wasn't so long ago that this pope was praising it.

The bit I quoted above. Its like they're teaching a form of gnosticism, while claiming it is heretical

Have you picked up on that?
post #8 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
A couple of questions:

1. Hasn't this Big-bang...Big-crunch...Big-bang theory been around for as long as the Big Bang theory itself?

2. What evidence do they offer for it, and where does this one trillion number come from?

3. Does time even really exist when the universe is only a singularity, between the bang and the crunch?

1. I think it has, IIRC there were two possibilities originally, and later evidence (the increasing speed of expansion and the 'critical' value) came down on the side of permanent expansion.

2. Im trying to find the whole of the journal given by them, because I'd like to know how they arrived at that aswell. Im guessing they are claiming that for the cosmological constant to be at such a small value, orders of magnitute smaller from what it what it was expected to be, then due to its natural decay, if it started off as what we think it should, then it would take 'so long' for it to decay to its present value.

3. AFAIK time wouldn't exist at a singularity, but I think they are claiming there wasn't a singularity anyway.

Personally I think there is only the expansion phase, No 'CRUNCH'- but I think they may be onto something. I imagine it as ripples on a pond. Each stone thrown in is a big bang, and the ripples eminate away from the 'cause' - and eventually just die out, but I have a hunch, that when the ripples are far away enough from the 'centre' (remember there is no centre in the universe - visualize it in 2D) there is insufficent 'energy' masquerading as mass near the centre to prevent the branes recolliding and starting a new big bang. (a new pebble). That might explain why the 'cosmoligical contant' doesn't reset itself with every bang, as you would expect if there was a crunch to a singularity.
post #9 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
from linked article (limbo)

"He said that the reason the Catholic Church was clarifying its position was that people still wrongly perceived heaven as a place and not as a state of being"

You know, i know you really dont like Catholicism (I presume), but I wonder, they obviously know the roots and origins of their history - and again with the Creationist article - there does appear to be two odd sides to Catholicism. Almost as soon as one spokesman gives an argument - another will give the opposite view.

For instance, this astromer has said creationism is paganism, but it wasn't so long ago that this pope was praising it.

The bit I quoted above. Its like they're teaching a form of gnosticism, while claiming it is heretical

Have you picked up on that?

Yes, it is a marked feature of Catholicism. Most religions feature it in fact but it is more obvious in the Catholic Church because it is a dogmatic hierarchical entity.

Imo, this phenomena is due to the fact that there are many sincere people drawn to religion (as well as the usual shysters who tend to rise to the key positions of power) and these people once 'inside' are in a position to know the truth. This is especially true in the Catholic Church where there is a long academic tradition coupled with libraries and resources unavailable to lay-people.

Once these have been investigated and researched the truth becomes clear - in this case that Creationism is known to be Pagan because the Church stole it from Paganism and inserted it into Christianity which had no such concept originally.

At that point the situation you note will arise: the Sincere Catholic will speak out and draw attention to this truth. The Shyster (or someone who's job this is) will speak out against it so as 'the flock' (love that term) don't get the wrong [right] idea.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes, it is a marked feature of Catholicism. Most religions feature it in fact but it is more obvious in the Catholic Church because it is a dogmatic hierarchical entity.

Imo, this phenomena is due to the fact that there are many sincere people drawn to religion (as well as the usual shysters who tend to rise to the key positions of power) and these people once 'inside' are in a position to know the truth. This is especially true in the Catholic Church where there is a long academic tradition coupled with libraries and resources unavailable to lay-people.

Once these have been investigated and researched the truth becomes clear - in this case that Creationism is known to be Pagan because the Church stole it from Paganism and inserted it into Christianity which had no such concept originally.

At that point the situation you note will arise: the Sincere Catholic will speak out and draw attention to this truth. The Shyster (or someone who's job this is) will speak out against it so as 'the flock' (love that term) don't get the wrong [right] idea.

right, but the thing here is - which one is the shyster?

That the "astronomer" says Creationism is Pagan (true) and is bad (true) while pretending that Catholicism is something more than paganism (false)

or the Pope, knowing Creationism is Pagan (true), knowing Catholicism is pagan (true) thus praising Creationism - true in his belief as a 'pagan' (true but stupid).

If anything, you could argue that Popey is more 'genuine' to the truth??? [edit - his truth]

[edit 2] or perhaps you dont agree with my statements?
post #11 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
A couple of questions:

1. Hasn't this Big-bang...Big-crunch...Big-bang theory been around for as long as the Big Bang theory itself?

2. What evidence do they offer for it, and where does this one trillion number come from?

3. Does time even really exist when the universe is only a singularity, between the bang and the crunch?

1. Yeah, it was sometimes referred to as the cyclic universe, big-crunch, etc. It's also been postulated that the cycles are getting longer and longer until one cycle becomes a runaway (expansionist) universe. This implies that with every crunch and expansion some matter is being erased from existence.

2. A lot of zeros?
post #12 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
This implies that with every crunch and expansion some matter is being erased from existence.


yes, but in the brane scenario, when 2 branes collide, matter is created, so doesn't it depend upon whether when the branes collide, the existing matter is anhilated, and new matter is created.

The problem? - is that if everthing is anhillated in the collision, and everything is started afresh, how does the cosmological constant 'remember' what it had decayed too?

Thats why I think my pond analogy might be a better explanation, than a crunch back to a singularity.
post #13 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Great theory. Religion is really in the last death throes now. I think a hundred years will do it.

Is this a sarcastic joke?
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post #14 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Is this a sarcastic joke?

No.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #15 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No.

hehe, i thought it was aswell
post #16 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
hehe, i thought it was aswell

No, I really believe it. Clearly the rise of fundamentalism is a reaction to this death-process which is well underway and which the organized religions can clearly perceive if only on a subconscious level.

I do not mean to imply that belief in God will disappear - imo it will increase in an individualistic and self-determined way - just that religions as entities have run their course.

Science will make ever greater strides which will make the belief systems unfeasible and impossible to maintain. Anyone with an objective view of modern theology, Christology and Church politics (let alone Islamic radicalism) will clearly see these issues within the religious context.

In fact, the dichotomy between the 'two Catolicisms' noted above is a prime example. You had better believe that the religious leaders are very well aware of it and it has gone way too far to fix.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 53
Thread Starter 
Sego, has something changed with you? that doesn't quite fit with what I would think you would say.
post #18 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Sego, has something changed with you? that doesn't quite fit with what I would think you would say.

Do you think it is true though?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #19 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Do you think it is true though?

yes, but I don't want you to write things in the context of what you think I think is true.

If you believe that - well if you really do, fine.

But i'd rather you were just honest, and said what your/the truth is. We don't agree on some things, fine. Argue your case, I'll argue mine. If you think im talking shit, call me on it. I might get pissed, might not - who knows?

I don't always (often? )feel the need to be 'philosophically reflective', and you shouldn't either. We can bash out our differences of opinion till were thumping the screen at 5am in the morning if you like,(but not tonight, i'm really tired)

But when I wake up (maybe not straight away ) you're still the great segovius. (sometimes)

[edit] unless of course you're demonstrating the way catholicism works as I critisized above by giving me some medicine?
post #20 of 53
Being raised in a strict religious environment and having moved far away from the farce, I have no doubt religion will die out. Maybe not explicitly but people who follow the religion don't even believe it any more. They say they believe it but they say the name Jesus with an air of theatrics as if they know it's not real but they are carrying on some tradition.

They preach that they have all the answers but you give them real questions and they have no real answers.

In many ways though, this is similar to theoretical physics, which I graduated in. They come up with a bunch of theories that seem to fit the observations but realistically, they could make anything up just like religion. Multiple universes and n dimensions...

Lol, one of those religious articles had the line:

"Instead, the new belief is expected to be that unbaptised babies will go directly to heaven."

WTF. If they don't know then why bother saying anything at all? It's just stupid.

To be honest, I wish the end of the world will come soon, if for nothing more than to end the madness.
post #21 of 53
Thread Starter 
the best link I found so far back on topic is http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._010413-1.html

I think the science journal the article is referring to might be this www.sciencemag.org but I cant find any reference to this topic there
post #22 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
Being raised in a strict religious environment and having moved far away from the farce, I have no doubt religion will die out. Maybe not explicitly but people who follow the religion don't even believe it any more. They say they believe it but they say the name Jesus with an air of theatrics as if they know it's not real but they are carrying on some tradition.

Maybe thats all religion ever intended for itself to be - maybe its the people who take it seriously, who follow it strictly, are the very ones who least understand it's reason for existance.

Quote:

They preach that they have all the answers but you give them real questions and they have no real answers.

Give anyone a real question, and if they give you a real answer, they are lying.

Quote:

In many ways though, this is similar to theoretical physics, which I graduated in. They come up with a bunch of theories that seem to fit the observations but realistically, they could make anything up just like religion. Multiple universes and n dimensions...

You're right, thats all it is a bunch of guesses to fit the evidence. Its ok as long as you've got all the evidence to look at.

Quote:

Lol, one of those religious articles had the line:

"Instead, the new belief is expected to be that unbaptised babies will go directly to heaven."

WTF. If they don't know then why bother saying anything at all? It's just stupid.

That depends on whether you think religion is absolute and static, or relative and changing. I think people who have been fed a strict diet expect religion to be absolute and rigid, and abandon it as rubbish when the reality sinks in that it is relative and flexible. Perhaps you just need to re-evaluate what religion really is against what someone told you it should be.

Quote:

To be honest, I wish the end of the world will come soon, if for nothing more than to end the madness.

I wouldn't really wish for that. I'd wish for a way of seeing through the madness and the madmen.
post #23 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Funny, I was going to start a thread called Vatican: creationism is a crock of [@!*#] or something similar when I saw this one.

Great minds and all that.

Great theory. Religion is really in the last death throes now. I think a hundred years will do it.

I disagree,man loves religion & tradition to the point of ignoring everything around him to hold onto it. Religion will be with us as long as the weak minded are with us, Its easier to let others think for you isnt it? Its easier to think of a static world not in change and God is done rather then a universe in constant change,evolving and growing.
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post #24 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No, I really believe it. Clearly the rise of fundamentalism is a reaction to this death-process which is well underway and which the organized religions can clearly perceive if only on a subconscious level. . .

As many problems as there are with the politicking of religion in the modern world, they are nothing new. It is exuberant at best to think that, somehow, in the next hundred years evidence will arise and relegate religion to a place as the opiate of fools. The universe is infinite, and mankind will never discover all of its nature. Right now, we still haven't a clue. For this reason, there will always be room for religion. In fact, I'd construe athiesm as a religion, since it is based on the belief that there is no god. I think you'll find that it is just as much of a stretch to believe in the existence of a god as it is to deny that any god exists.

For what it's worth, Dr. Steinhardt's son lived across the hall from me when I was a freshman in college. He is a very smart guy, and so is his dad, but neither of them have all the answers, nor does the Princeton physics (or astrophysics) department.


Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I disagree,man loves religion & tradition to the point of ignoring everything around him to hold onto it. Religion will be with us as long as the weak minded are with us, Its easier to let others think for you isnt it? Its easier to think of a static world not in change and God is done rather then a universe in constant change,evolving and growing.

If you look hard enough I think you'll find that the only people who dismiss religion as a way-out for the weak-minded are people who are smart enough to realize that the ritual of organized religion is beside the point, but not observant enough to realize their own insignificance. As I said, the belief that there is no god, and the related belief that only fools are religious is a religion in itself. I have to say, though, that it's a bad religion since it declares all of its belivers as fools.
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post #25 of 53
as a scientist who doesn't have faith, i disagree that science will ever replace religion... it just isn't a realistic conjecture because for the most part the two operate in very different realms... science is concerned with objective reality... religion is concerned with subjective mentality...

the vatican is beginning to argue this point as well, a theologically rigorous religion has no basis in reality... faith cannot survive evidence...
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post #26 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
yes, but I don't want you to write things in the context of what you think I think is true.

If you believe that - well if you really do, fine.

As it happens I do believe it. The point is whether you believe it though (if you are going to comment or think about it) and not whether I do.

You think too much

It's all really quite simple: things are exactly as they seem. The 'unreality' comes in when we construct theories and complex explanations and let them take precedence over what we see. Become as little children and all that....

The point I was trying to make was this: in terms of the evolution of human consciousness (which is evolving too), rationalism MUST replace superstition.

As most religion IS superstition then, ergo, it will die.

That is not to say that people will not have personal beliefs about God and spirituality at that point but that they will be rational and the opposite of superstition or the current madness which makes up 99% of religious belief.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #27 of 53
An observation of the trends in the last hundred years shows a rapid increase in the number of people in the world who don't consider themsleves religious (seculars/agnostics/atheists, etc.), if I recall correctly that group is third in size behind Islam (and growing faster than Islam, yet not being a religion it cannot claim being the world's fastest growing etc.)
Observing the last five hundred years, we can see that religion's influence and authority has been in decline (with some short upward spikes from time to time).

It would be presomptuous for me to claim that religion shall disappear in any given deadline, but there is no hint at a tremendous change of the long-term trends as observed.

People still need religion, or else it wouldn't exist anymore, yet what we know about reality indicates that people need religion less than they used to.

Perhaps religion will change to adapt, which doesn't necessarily mean altering itself to cater to the prevailing fashion (vanity of vanities), but rather finding a way to keep its core ideas intact while making them accessible and relevent to the the people of today, instead of wishing that people come around and back to yesterday.
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post #28 of 53
What a sad world this will be if all faith is lost.
"some catch on faster than others"
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post #29 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
What a sad world this will be if all faith is lost.

Yes. Heaven knows I'll miss 'Islamofascism', the caste system and 'God Hates Fags'.
post #30 of 53
Although I have not been religious for as long as I can remember, for a long time I had held the belief that religion was harmless and even went as far as to participate in religious rituals so as not to offend; such as bowing ones head during the chaplains prayer.

It took a science fiction novel (Hominids by Robert J. Sawyer) to open my eyes and make me realize that religion and the belief in some magical place separate from our own reality are truly destructive influences on our society.
post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by AsLan^
It took a science fiction novel (Hominids by Robert J. Sawyer) to open my eyes and make me realize that religion and the belief in some magical place separate from our own reality are truly destructive influences on our society.

Taking the "organized religion is bad" stance is a popular one these days, but I'm not so sure that I agree wholeheartedly anymore. Unless you're into new-age revisionism, it's easy to cite positive moments in Western history that were influenced by the dominant Western religion (i.e. Christianity). There are negative moments as well, but there will always be good and evil in the world, independent of religion. Just because people use religion as an excuse to do evil deeds doesn't mean that it's the only available excuse. Neither Hitler's or Stalin's agenda had much to do with religion, for example.

On the plus, side, one can argue that the Judeo-Christian influence on Western culture had a lot to do with the fact that the West was -- certainly by the 18th century -- the guiding light to the rest of the world, and to this day remains, without a doubt, the most culturally advanced area of the world. Denying this is either a result of contemporary, multi-culturalist brain-washing or the legitimate feeling that individual freedom and non-oppressive governments are bad things.
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post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
On the plus, side, one can argue that the Judeo-Christian influence on Western culture had a lot to do with the fact that the West was -- certainly by the 18th century -- the guiding light to the rest of the world,

One could argue it - and one would be wrong.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #33 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Hitler's

Hitlers agenda have much more to do with religion than you think.

Quote:

On the plus, side, one can argue that the Judeo-Christian influence on Western culture had a lot to do with the fact that the West was -- certainly by the 18th century --

yet for the period 500AD to 1500AD apx, the Judeo-Christian on the western world was nothing but pure destruction, and it wasn't until the enlightenment era 1500+ apx, when people started to throw off en masse the fundamentalism of the previous 1000 years that the western world finally caught up to and in some ways exceeded the rest of the world.

I bet you didn't know the Romans had tools to remove cataracts, The Iraqi's were electoplating, and the greeks had measured the circumference of the sphere of the world accurately, before Jesus was even (not) born.

Infact, if Christianity had not swept the west, what we have accomplished today, might have been done by the 8th Century.
post #34 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by AsLan^

religion and the belief in some magical place separate from our own reality are truly destructive influences on our society.

Because you trade a belief in this life for a lie of a better life after death. This is why so many have nothing but a morbid contempt for themselves, the world and humanity.

for so many people religious nuts to go around claiming that Satan is a devious trickster out to screw up your life, you'd think that they wouldn't be so blind to being tricked themselves.
post #35 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius


You think too much


I know that, and I embrace it
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Hitlers agenda have much more to do with religion than you think.

Yes, fully supporting and supported by, the Catholic Church, Hitler regarded himself as a Christian (which he was) and followed an (admittedly unorthodox) derivation of Christian doctrine.

Many of his military adventures were overtly religious - the invasion of Czechoslovakia in pursuit of the Holy Grail, the obsession with the Spear of Longinus and the Occult rituals which were framed in a Christian context.

One could argue that his brand of anti-Semitism owed a lot to blaming Jews for the death of Christ - as does a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment which was fed by the Church.

Quote:
yet for the period 500AD to 1500AD apx, the Judeo-Christian on the western world was nothing but pure destruction,

Yes, the term Dark Ages should also provide a bijou cluette.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #37 of 53
I was referring more to the aspects of people being taught from a young age that there is some supernatural entity controlling everything, forgiving people, and punishing those who don't follow the rules.

I know people have cited religion as their inspiration for great deeds but would there be any less great deeds if the infrastructure had instead been laid for us to inspire ourselves and each other.

EDIT: This post was in response to Splinemodel
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I know that, and I embrace it

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Yes. Heaven knows I'll miss 'Islamofascism', the caste system and 'God Hates Fags'.

Don't confuse God with the deeds of men who claim to be acting in the name of God. Men who want to hate will always find a "reason" to justify their deeds.

Moe
"some catch on faster than others"
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post #40 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar

the vatican is beginning to argue this point as well, a theologically rigorous religion has no basis in reality... faith cannot survive evidence...

Funny, but as obvious as it is that Catholicism has been pretty evil for virtually its entire existance, i cant help look at them today, and wonder if they are actually onto something.

It seems to be they are teaching something that only makes sense when you realise there are different levels of understanding of peoples faiths. Of course this looks contradictory, and can easily be accused by some of being 2 faced, or trying to convert by saying all things to all men.

But take this 'worship of Mary' stuff - itself it seems highly heretical when your level of understanding is poor - afterall this is a movement supposedly based on the teachings of Jesus - you'd think that it's so obviously heretical to elevate Mary equal to, or higher than Jesus, you wonder why in the hell they do it. But if you wonder enough to find out, Mary is more important than Jesus in so many ways.

Sadly, most people being dumb sheep will just go along with it, because thats what they are told to do - and my critisism of this is that the vatican do not teach 'why' it is so, but are operating on the basis of if you care enough to find out, then you will find out anyway.

That might just be the way it has to be - but I don't really aprove of it, but I kind of endorse it aswell.
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