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New Extremist Threat Alert....

post #1 of 188
Thread Starter 
Since the infinite alerts we have experienced over the last few years I suppose some of us have become a bit jaded and let our guard down. It's so easy to become blaise and I myself have often treated fundies and other extremists as a laughing matter.

Not any more. I read something today that chilled me to the bone. The evangelical movement has finally jumped the shark - and on the other side of that shark is a whole bunch of sharks: heading straight for you and me with blood-stained jaws snarling as we paddle unawares in the shallow soothing waters of our comfort zones.

Well, it's later than you think....

BattleCry is a Christian fundamentalist movement which is increasing in popularity and sweeping the nation. It has the full support of President Bush and leading Church figures and it aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble.

And they do mean literal.....

Quote:
I would execute gays only if we catch them indulging in sodomy," says Gary DeMar, popular Christian evangelical minister.

Gary DeMar stated he'd execute gays only if they were caught indulging in sodomy, but others envision sinners in line for the death penalty would include women who commit adultery or lie about their virginity, blasphemers, witches, children who strike their parents, and gay men. Thus, DeMar is considered somewhat of a liberal in this extreme authoritarian movement.

But there's more.....

Quote:
To answer my question about the war in Iraq and pointing out that "there were some 100,000 casualties in this war led by a self proclaimed Christian," Stanley and his followers proclaim defensively and somewhat eerily "we are not fighting people, we are fighting Satan and Evildoers," and "George Bush claimed God counseled him to go to war for our country and furthermore, sometimes God favors war." Charles Stanley boasted repeatedly about G.W Bush being his good friend and intimate prayer partner.

The obsession with war and killing is a marked theme in the BattleCry rallies. They feature personnel from the US Navy Seals on the podium along with the preacher. They don't do much - just stand ther ein full battle gear holding machine guns.

And the war motif is echoed in the movement's language 'Crusades', 'war on evil' and even - chillingly - 'blitzkrieg' are all over-used buzzwords.

The 'Crusades' are targetted on impressionable teenagers and are held relentlessly across the nation. One shocked journalist attending a rally reported:

Quote:
Throughout the three and a half hours of BattleCrys first session, I thought of only one analogy that fit the experience: This must have been what it felt like to watch the Hitler Youth, filled with self-righteous pride, proclaim the supremacy of their beliefs and their willingness to shed blood for them.

While in the bathroom, I saw something equally unsettling--a preteen girl wearing a shirt being sported by many attendees that night: Jesus on the cross, robes waving, and emblazoned across the front the words Dressed to Kill.

Truthdig

And all this has the support of the President.

Be afraid.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 188
Though reluctant to even dignify this thread by posting to it, I feel compelled to ask how is this movement/group/whatever "supported" by President Bush?

In the links you posted, the only thing I found was:

Quote:
It began with fireworks so loud and startling I screamed. Lights and smoke followed, and a few kids were pulled up on stage from the crowd. One was asked to read a letter.

This was the letter that opened the event. Its author was George W. Bush. Yes, the president of the United States sent a letter of support, greeting, prayer and encouragement to the BattleCry event held at Wachovia Spectrum Stadium in Philadelphia on May 12.

Since we don't know the contents of the letter at all (I didn't see/read it in any of the links), all we have is hearsay wrt to the so-called "letter of support, greeting, prayer and encouragement". In other words we know nothing.

I guess I'd hope for something more substantive than that (you know, like actually knowing what the letter said, to whom it was addressed, etc.) before declaring (and sounding the alarm) with such certainty that "all this has the support of the President".

Wouldn't you agree?
post #3 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Though reluctant to even dignify this thread by posting to it, I feel compelled to ask how is this movement/group/whatever "supported" by President Bush?

In the links you posted, the only thing I found was:



Since we don't know the contents of the letter at all (I didn't see/read it in any of the links), all we have is hearsay wrt to the so-called "letter of support, greeting, prayer and encouragement". In other words we know nothing.

I guess I'd hope for something more substantive than that (you know, like actually knowing what the letter said, to whom it was addressed, etc.) before declaring (and sounding the alarm) with such certainty that "all this has the support of the President".

Wouldn't you agree?

Let me get this straight: you yourself post a direct quote that states

the president of the United States sent a letter of support, greeting, prayer and encouragement

and your question is:

how is this movement/group/whatever "supported" by President Bush?

Well, luckily for you (and I will have to be asking for your take on the murdering of gays when we've done this bit) there's more.

Battle Crys leader, Ron Luce, is a Bush appointee to a federal anti-drug-abuse commission and BattleCry's events have been addressed by Barbara Bush the First Lady.

Maybe they violently disagree with it though eh?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 188
Quote:

"Immediately afterward [the reading of the letter - my insertion], a preacher took the microphone and led the crowd in prayer. Among other things, he asked the attendees to “Thank God for giving us George Bush.
post #5 of 188
Thread Starter 
Actually this is much more disturbing than I have realized.

A program they have is called 'Acquire the Fire' shortened to an acronym (as cults often do): ATF.

Here is one of their merchandising ads:



Nice weapon.

I'm hot on the trail of the Jesus 'Dressed to Kill' T shirt.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Let me get this straight: you yourself post a direct quote that states

the president of the United States sent a letter of support, greeting, prayer and encouragement

and your question is:

how is this movement/group/whatever "supported" by President Bush?

Don't play games seg. What I quoted was from the text of the article you linked. In other words it was their "reporting" and/or characterization of this letter. So, we have to take Sunsara Taylor's (who, according to the site, writes for Revolution newspaper and sits on the Advisory Board of The World Cant WaitDrive Out the Bush Regime) word for it.

Well, luckily for you (and I will have to be asking for your take on the murdering of gays when we've done this bit) there's more.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Battle Crys leader, Ron Luce, is a Bush appointee to a federal anti-drug-abuse commission and BattleCry's events have been addressed by Barbara Bush the First Lady.

Now you are getting closer. But before I have to whip out the logical fallacies reference, let's clarify a couple of things:

1. That "Ron Luce, is a Bush appointee to a federal anti-drug-abuse commission" does NOT equate to "all this has the support of the President"

2. There is no mention of Barbara Bush in either of those links, so I will assume you are lying until you provide citation.

3. I will take some time to re-read the links you have posted to see what other conclusions you (and the author) may be jumping to about the various parties mentioned.

P.S. Where does Luce call for the killing of gays"?

P.P.S. Where do you find that Battle Cry "aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble"? Or is that simply your own interpretation of its aims?

P.P.P.S. How is Gary DeMar (the source of the comment about executing gays) connected to "Battle Cry"?
post #7 of 188
Thread Starter 
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #8 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Barbara Bush video

OK.

So you still have several other questionas to answer.

Seems like the only (legitimate) complaint you have is the "military/battle" metaphor that Battle Cry uses.

Basically you've stitched together a couple of unrelated things to create some sort of "alert" about "extremism" (BTW...seg...you aren't one of those constantly harping about Bush's "politics of fear" are you? Because that seems to be exactly what you are attempting to engage in here and now.)
post #9 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
OK.

So you still have several other questionas to answer.

Seems like the only (legitimate) complaint you have is the "military/battle" metaphor that Battle Cry uses.

Not so.

Here is a list of BattleCry supporters and partners.

Members in fact. There views are synonymous with the organization. They include:

Jerry Falwell, Liberty University
Kirk Franklin, Fo Yo Soul, Nu Nation Ministries
Jack Graham, Prestonwood Baptist Church
Ted Haggard, National Association of Evangelicals
Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn Ministries
Greg Laurie, Harvest Christian Fellowship
John Maxwell, INJOY
Josh McDowell, Josh McDowell Ministries
Joyce Meyer, Joyce Meyer Ministries
Bob Reccord, SBC North American Mission Board
Pat Robertson, Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN)

I take it you are familiar with the quotes that could be adduced from a fair number of these jokers.

I suppose the real question is how little of it you would disagree with.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #10 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I suppose the real question is how little of it you would disagree with.

No, the real question is what is your specific issue?

Still waiting on answers to these:

Quote:
P.S. Where does Luce call for the killing of gays"?

P.P.S. Where do you find that Battle Cry "aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble"? Or is that simply your own interpretation of its aims?

P.P.P.S. How is Gary DeMar (the source of the comment about executing gays) connected to "Battle Cry"?
post #11 of 188
"Besen pointed out that one of the speakers at the "Reclaiming America" conference is Gary DeMar, whom Besen described as a recognized leader in the Reconstructionist movement. "DeMar once said of homosexuality: ‘The Bible doesn’t say that homosexuals should be executed. What it says is this: If two men lie together like a man and a woman lie together, they are to be put to death.’"

http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archi...ations/exodus/
post #12 of 188
I found this site about Teen Mania.
post #13 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
I found this site about Teen Mania.

That's Luce as well.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 188
"Luce put great emphasis on following every word in the Bible, treating it as an instruction book, even when a person doesn't understand or agree. This is, of course, the logic that leads to the stoning of gays, non-virgin brides, disobedient children and much morebecause the Bible says so.
Chillingly, when I confronted Ron explicitly about these passages, he refused to disavow them."

"Luce and about 300 BattleCry acolytes (almost entirely youths) rallied in front of Philadelphia's Constitution Hallthe location having been chosen because Luce wants to 'restore' the Founding Fathers vision of a religious society"

"And lest you think this is idle paranoia, BattleCry founder Ron Luce told the crowds the next morning (May 13) that he plans to launch a blitzkrieg in the communities, schools, malls, etc. against those who dont share his theocratic vision of society."

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/..._philadelphia/
post #15 of 188
post #16 of 188

thats luce in the striped shirt

YOU ACTUALLY APROVE THIS CUILLA and are defending it????
post #17 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK

thats luce in the striped shirt

YOU ACTUALLY APROVE THIS CUILLA and are defending it????

[Chris Cuilla] Where did I say I was defending it? Don't put words into my mouth. All I'm saying is they have every right to say and do anything they like as far as turning America into a theocratic state.[/Chris Cuilla]
post #18 of 188
Still waiting seg:

Quote:
P.S. Where does Luce call for the killing of gays"?

P.P.S. Where do you find that Battle Cry "aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble"? Or is that simply your own interpretation of its aims?

P.P.P.S. How is Gary DeMar (the source of the comment about executing gays) connected to "Battle Cry"?

tick tock tick tock
post #19 of 188
First of all, this isn't new. ATF has held teen conferences in the Toronto/Hamilton area every year for the past decade or so, and they're actually a lot of fun. Lots of video, pyrotechnics and music for the kids.

Second, using "war imagery" to signify the Christian struggle against sin isn't new either. Unless Segovius and Marc now wish to outlaw the Salvation Army.

Third, the idea that the group "aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble" is sheer Segovian nonsense. It's a group advocating that teens live according to the Bible. If the whole country embraces it, then yes, the whole country would be Christian. As I've asked the many times you've brought up this "theocracy" nonsense before: Where is it exactly that they advocate replacing the democratic system?

Fourth, no Christian with half a brain is going to "disavow" parts of the Old Testament.
The injunctions against sin are there for good reasons that we've gone over a million times before. The New Testament application of grace through the death and resurrection of Christ doesn't mean we tear out and throw away the first two thirds of the Bible.

Finally Sego, I find it sad that you have to resort time and again to tired, inflammatory rhetoric against a particular Christian message that you obviously can't debate with clear reasoned arguments. (Marc I understand - he's never had clear and reasoned arguments.)

Having to fall back on "ooh, they're using soldiers on stage" is actually quite pathetic.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #20 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
First of all, this isn't new. ATF has held teen conferences in the Toronto/Hamilton area every year for the past decade or so, and they're actually a lot of fun. Lots of video, pyrotechnics and music for the kids.

Second, using "war imagery" to signify the Christian struggle against sin isn't new either. Unless Segovius and Marc now wish to outlaw the Salvation Army.

Third, the idea that the group "aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble" is sheer Segovian nonsense. It's a group advocating that teens live according to the Bible. If the whole country embraces it, then yes, the whole country would be Christian. As I've asked the many times you've brought up this "theocracy" nonsense before: Where is it exactly that they advocate replacing the democratic system?

Fourth, no Christian with half a brain is going to "disavow" parts of the Old Testament.
The injunctions against sin are there for good reasons that we've gone over a million times before. The New Testament application of grace through the death and resurrection of Christ doesn't mean we tear out and throw away the first two thirds of the Bible.

Finally Sego, I find it sad that you have to resort time and again to tired, inflammatory rhetoric against a particular Christian message that you obviously can't debate with clear reasoned arguments. (Marc I understand - he's never had clear and reasoned arguments.)

You disavow the parts of the old testament that are inconvenient for you (like keeping kosher) with the explanation that Jesus brought forth new laws to follow. Then of course when it is convenient (like bashing gays) the old testament rocks!

Quote:
Having to fall back on "ooh, they're using soldiers on stage" is actually quite pathetic.

I find having the soldiers on stage trying to promote what should be a peaceful religion pathetic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #21 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Fourth, no Christian with half a brain is going to "disavow" parts of the Old Testament.

Hmm, I can't believe this. Do you obey the Torah? Really? Can I give you a little test on that?
post #22 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
You disavow the parts of the old testament that are inconvenient for you (like keeping kosher) with the explanation that Jesus brought forth new laws to follow. Then of course when it is convenient (like bashing gays) the old testament rocks!

Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Hmm, I can't believe this. Do you obey the Torah? Really? Can I give you a little test on that?

"Disavow" is different from "understand in its proper context".

There are good theological reasons for the laws set out in the Old Testament, and I affirm that they were right for their time. However, the New Testament sets out a better, more permanent way for Man to walk with God, a way that was promised from the earliest time of the Fall of Man.

Keeping kosher isn't particularly hard for anyone devoted to their God, and there are plenty of people who do it on a daily basis. The idea that I reject the Old Testament because I favour a ham sandwich is laughable.

The "bashing gays" idea is equally silly. The prohibitions against homosexuality are repeated in the New Testament and are easy to understand when the basis of Christian living is viewed in the proper context.

Quote:
Originally posted by BR
I find having the soldiers on stage trying to promote what should be a peaceful religion pathetic.

While I hesitate to repeat the same phrase, it is all about context.

I'm sure that looking at a photo of soldiers with guns on the platform instantly conveys to some on this board that these "right-wing Christians" are trying to drum up support for "Bush's War".

That's nonsense, and the more reasonable explanation - from someone who's actually been to a Teen Mania event - is that the idea of following Christ in the modern world is akin to a war on one's sinful ways.

There are many examples of the use of war in this way. I myself have used images of army personnel to illustrate the "Armour of God" (Ephesians Chapter 6).

The Salvation Army dresses in uniform and recognizes Majors and other ranks.

Sego and others have pointed out that the Muslim reference Jihad" is not always a real war, but identifies a personal struggle against sin. (It is a pity he does not afford the same understanding to Christians.)

I have yet to hear any solid evidence that Teen Mania is promoting anything but traditional Evangelical Christianity, albeit in a more modern, dramatic teen-focused fashion than regular presentations - which is their style.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #23 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
from someone who's actually been to a Teen Mania event

Ooooh, interested party.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #24 of 188
Thread Starter 
Teen mania sounds a bit seventies porno doesn't it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #25 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
"Disavow" is different from "understand in its proper context".

Just sounds like picking and choosing what you want to do to me.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #26 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Just sounds like picking and choosing what you want to do to me.

That's the whole problem right there: the fundies and common or garden Christians need to come down on one side of the fence or the other.

EITHER it is ok to pick and choose (and I say it is) in which case we have no problem in any religion because we pick the good bits and throw out the bad....

OR

It is not ok and one must be an absolute literalist who lurks in cornfields on the Sabbath in case anyone might need swiftly dispatching to the hereafter.

You can't have both. And you especially can't have both while you are saying you are following one while doing the other and simultaneously blocking up your ears and convening a star chamber complete with auto de fe for anyone who draws attention to it.

One more thing: the 'military metaphor' and 'jihad' equivalence is the lamest unmitigated piece of manure I have yet had the misfortune to be subjected to in this purgatory.

Try seeing if that flies if an Imam gets a suicide bomber in full rig-out and bomb-belt on the stage while he screams about jihad.......

Chill, it's only a metaphor for spiritual struggle....

NO! These literalists wouldn't no a metaphor if one tried to shag their grandmother....[b]THAT'S WHY THEY'RE FUNDIES FFS[/B......... it's not a friggin metaphor. It's a load of crazed right-wing Christian loons with guns who are targeting innocent kids to start a quasi-militia.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #27 of 188
Oh those fundies, What will they do next?
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #28 of 188
Speaking of "picking and choosing" seg...you seem to be the one guilty of that in this thread. Still no answers:

Quote:
P.S. Where does Luce call for the killing of gays"?

P.P.S. Where do you find that Battle Cry "aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble"? Or is that simply your own interpretation of its aims?

P.P.P.S. How is Gary DeMar (the source of the comment about executing gays) connected to "Battle Cry"?

Maybe you should let us know when you want to have a serious, adult conversation about these issues (whatever exactly the "issues" are...you still haven't made that clear). At this point you don't. You'd rather pick (and choose) some random snippets, conjecture and editorialized "reporting" and weave them together into a narrative of fear ("Be afraid.") about "extreme" "militaristic" Christian fundamentalists intent on installing a theocracy all with the tacit (or explicit) support of the current President.

When confronted with any challenge or reasonable interpretation of what you've posted you use smoke and mirrors to make this thread about anything but what you ridiculously opened it up with. You dimiss the use of context as if it is some radical, fundamentalist tool used only by people intent on twisting the meaning of things and yet this is all you have done (because of the lack of context).

OK, you found one nutjob (and yes, there are probably more) who says he'd execute gays. Whatever. Why don't you come visit my church and I'll introduce you to a couple of hundred people that would be appalled by the thought. If you even asked them I suspect they'd look at you like you're from another planet.

Sorry to break this to you, but there isn't a "bogey man" behind every Bible.
post #29 of 188
segovius, you just don't understand us here in the States. This kind of thing is pretty common here.

You see a religious revival with guys dressed up in military camo waving assault rifles, complete with pyrotechnics, speaking in tongues, and a motivational speaker getting his lines out of Leviticus, and you call it a gathering of right wing fundie loons. In America, we call that a "weekend."
post #30 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
segovius, you just don't understand us here in the States. This kind of thing is pretty common here.

You see a religious revival with guys dressed up in military camo waving assault rifles, complete with pyrotechnics, speaking in tongues, and a motivational speaker getting his lines out of Leviticus, and you call it a gathering of right wing fundie loons. In America, we call that a "weekend."

Horse feathers. These people do not represent mainstream America. We don't get too exited about them because we know that.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #31 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
First of all, this isn't new. ATF has held teen conferences in the Toronto/Hamilton area every year for the past decade or so, and they're actually a lot of fun. Lots of video, pyrotechnics and music for the kids.

And what the hell has that got to do with Jesus' message? What is really going on here is that you are pumping them full of adrenaline, wowing them with spectacular sensory spectacles, and grandly displaying power and wealth to impress them, all the while pumping out constant "Gods army" messages. If the context was not to convert them to Jesus, it would correctly be labelled as brainwashing. Exacly the same as Hitler Youth.

Quote:

Third, the idea that the group "aims to install a theocratic society based on a literal interpretation of the BIble" is sheer Segovian nonsense. It's a group advocating that teens live according to the Bible. If the whole country embraces it, then yes, the whole country would be Christian. As I've asked the many times you've brought up this "theocracy" nonsense before: Where is it exactly that they advocate replacing the democratic system?

Its their whole reason to be. But this isn't happy hippie Christianity, which I might not have issue with, this is a fundamentalist army, who strictly take the worst parts of the bible, and make a virtue out of it. Bigotry, hatred, division, ignorance, hubris, arrogance and deceit. Everything Jesus supposedly stood against.

Quote:

Fourth, no Christian with half a brain is going to "disavow" parts of the Old Testament.
The injunctions against sin are there for good reasons that we've gone over a million times before. The New Testament application of grace through the death and resurrection of Christ doesn't mean we tear out and throw away the first two thirds of the Bible.

Anyone with half a functioning brain cell will disavow the parts of the OT that the teachings of Jesus replaced. Jesus didn't teach Bigotry, hatred, division, ignorance, hubris, arrogance and deceit. Infact belief in Jesus - by default means you have to disavow the parts he superseeded.

Quote:

Finally Sego, I find it sad that you have to resort time and again to tired, inflammatory rhetoric against a particular Christian message that you obviously can't debate with clear reasoned arguments. (Marc I understand - he's never had clear and reasoned arguments.)

Then you'd better understand that I am 110% with Segovius on this one.

Quote:

Having to fall back on "ooh, they're using soldiers on stage" is actually quite pathetic.

Unless Jesus really was part of an armed struggle or a terrorist against the Romans - If 'Jesus ben Pandira' or 'ben Stada' really WAS the historical Jesus - in which case the entire gospel account of Jesus of the Bible would be worthless, using a grandiose display of military bravado is more than pathetic
post #32 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Speaking of "picking and choosing" seg...you seem to be the one guilty of that in this thread. Still no answers:

Shall I remind you, that you still havn't answered my questions of why over $2 bil a quarter is not excessive, despite the fact that you asked what the number is. - And IIRC you still havn't told me why polyploidism doesn't count as an increase in information, or wether those Salamanders count as an examle of evolution. Such a silly game to play, if you yourself do not play by the same rule. Opens you up to all kinds of accusations - like "2 faced hypocrite" for example.

Quote:

OK, you found one nutjob (and yes, there are probably more) who says he'd execute gays. Whatever. Why don't you come visit my church and I'll introduce you to a couple of hundred people that would be appalled by the thought. If you even asked them I suspect they'd look at you like you're from another planet.

Sorry to break this to you, but there isn't a "bogey man" behind every Bible.

perhaps you could tell my why it is that on their own every Christian always points the finger at everyone else when critism of their religion draws attention, yet when you get all these 'whiter than white' people together, they represent ssomething nasty?

So, if your church is so great, and its vision of Christianity so wonderful, why are you not condemming the extremist militaristic practises of these perverts? Surely they do the reputation of Christ a great disservice.
post #33 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777

(Marc I understand - he's never had clear and reasoned arguments.)

A rather strange thing to say really, perhaps it didn't occur to me what you were getting at the first time I read it.

If you're implying that I have been talking to you (or anyone else for that matter) about Segovius or his quality of arguments - I can only say that to persue such a tactic is utterly disgusting and depraved.
post #34 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
A rather strange thing to say really, perhaps it didn't occur to me what you were getting at the first time I read it.

If you're implying that I have been talking to you (or anyone else for that matter) about Segovius or his quality of arguments - I can only say that to persue such a tactic is utterly disgusting and depraved.

No, I was saying that YOU have never had clear and reasoned arguments.

Though truthfully, it has been awhile since you went on your "Sun God" rant.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #35 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
No, I was saying that YOU have never had clear and reasoned arguments.

Though truthfully, it has been awhile since you went on your "Sun God" rant.

Thats OK then please accept my apologies.
post #36 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Thats OK then please accept my apologies.

I thought Frank meant that he could only understand unclear and illogical arguments......

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #37 of 188
I am no fan of organized religion. When these tactics (shown in this thread) are used for any belief system it is cause for concern in my opinion.

I am a Christian and I trust that I do not need to be pumped up by misdirected people using smoke, mirrors and military garb all for some sort of purpose as to hate "the sin of others" all the while instilling some sort of self-righteousness into people.

Jesus said iirc:

-Love your neighbor
-Love your enemy
-Blessed are the peacemakers


My belief is that I need to deal with my own sin, not that of others. No need to place myself on a pedestal as we are all indeed sinners. Sin is sin and none of us are really any less of a sinner than the next guy.

These are just my opinions.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #38 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I am no fan of organized religion. When these tactics (shown in this thread) are used for any belief system it is cause for concern in my opinion.

I am a Christian and I trust that I do not need to be pumped up by misdirected people using smoke, mirrors and military garb all for some sort of purpose as to hate "the sin of others" all the while instilling some sort of self-righteousness into people.

Jesus said iirc:

-Love your neighbor
-Love your enemy
-Blessed are the peacemakers


My belief is that I need to deal with my own sin, not that of others. No need to place myself on a pedestal as we are all indeed sinners. Sin is sin and none of us are really any less of a sinner than the next guy.

These are just my opinions.

Fellows

Yes, these are the qualities of a Christian and I do believe you manage to live this from what I see - obviously I don't know you but that's how it comes across.

I would also like to say that although I am not a Christian I agree with all you say and one should not judge others but there is a 'but' and it is why I feel that threads like this are not bashing Christianity or any particular person's beliefs.

The 'but' is this: when religion - any religion (or shall we rather say spirituality) strays into the political arena then it ceases to function as a spiritual walk.

We all have our own political and this is good. But they should be informed by whatever beliefs and principles we hold - not the other way round. If politics start to inform belief then we have a political system - when that happens I feel it can - and should - be up there to be shot at.

If Jesus had wanted to take political power he could have done so. Or he could have left clear instructions that his followers in the future should do so. He didn't do that, he said "render unto Caesar...."

Just because something appears in religious formulation doesn't make it right - some of these things - the IRA and Taleban would be classic examples - absolutely SHOULD be opposed. In those case it is not a question of belief or 'sin', it becomes a question of a threat to society and is out of the spiritual arena. Caesar's realm......

Btw, I am not equating this movement under discussion with the IRA or Taleban. Yet. They are just getting going. Bit what if? Why can't we look at it?

They may be harmless - though I would argue they have already done much damage - but maybe not. Why do we always have to rely on hindsight and platitudes such as 'Never Again' used only in retrospect?

How about "It might be happening again now"? for a slogan if we have to have one?

It's called foresight and if there was more of it then there would be less of a lot of other unpleasant things. I'm sure we can all think of our own analogies.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #39 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
when religion - any religion (or shall we rather say spirituality) strays into the political arena then it ceases to function as a spiritual walk.

This really depends on what you mean. A person's religious beliefs become part of who they are and how they think. Let's use the term "world view" instead. Everyone has a "world view"...a way they see how things work (or should). This informs everything they do. Political positions included. To exclude some group from political participation because you don't like (or are afraid of) their particular world view is simply wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Btw, I am not equating this movement under discussion with the IRA or Taleban.

Hmmm...

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yet. They are just getting going. Bit what if?

Yet, you appear to be (quite strongly) implying it.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Why can't we look at it?

We can and should. But with reason, fairness, context, etc. None of this has been applied so far.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
They may be harmless - though I would argue they have already done much damage

But you haven't. So until you do, perhaps you should stop saying things like that.

P.S. You still have not answered my questions.
post #40 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
P.S. You still have not answered my questions.

Why is that though?

I think it is because there is nothing that I could possibly say - up to and including a video of Luce personally executing hapless sinners with a machete - that you would take on board.

It's a bit like when Bush asks for evidence and co-operation from countries he intends to bomb. It's not meant to find the truth - it serves only to:

1) show the sheep that he is reasonable and doing things 'properly'
2) find a possible pretext for aggression
3) dismiss any counter-arguments that exist and flush out ones that haven't come to light yet
4) stall for time while he gets the military machine rolling
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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