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New Extremist Threat Alert.... - Page 4

post #121 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Certainly Jesus himself made precisely zero comments on the issue - imagine today's anti-gay Christians (those that are I mean jeesh) actually buttoning up on this issue. Surely if he was as rabid as they are he would have let something slip?

As I have stated on many, many occasions, Jesus grew up in Nazareth and attended temple like everybody else. He knew what the penalty for practices regarded as deviant (like homosexuality) was, he knew why the Jews despised the Romans, he certainly knew why those who joined the Romans in those practices fared quite badly in Jewish society.

While His message of grace and mercy comes across loud and clear in the New Testament, it is also clear that Jesus never even considered for a moment that adultery and homosexuality were valid lifestyle choices.

Paul did not make anything up. It takes quite a bit of dishonesty to claim that the the teachings of Jesus are somehow at odds with the church's position on sexual sin.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #122 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
As I have stated on many, many occasions, Jesus grew up in Nazareth and attended temple like everybody else. He knew what the penalty for practices regarded as deviant (like homosexuality) was, he knew why the Jews despised the Romans, he certainly knew why those who joined the Romans in those practices fared quite badly in Jewish society.

While His message of grace and mercy comes across loud and clear in the New Testament, it is also clear that Jesus never even considered for a moment that adultery and homosexuality were valid lifestyle choices.

Paul did not make anything up. It takes quite a bit of dishonesty to claim that the the teachings of Jesus are somehow at odds with the church's position on sexual sin.



ah, isn't he lovely?
post #123 of 188
Jesus is, but he didn't look anything like that.

Nice try. It's funny how you and Sego resort to such tactics, because you clearly can't debate the arguments.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #124 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Jesus is, but he didn't look anything like that.

Nice try. It's funny how you and Sego resort to such tactics, because you clearly can't debate the arguments.

well that aint Jesus. It's Paul.

This is Jesus
post #125 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777

Nice try. It's funny how you and Sego resort to such tactics, because you clearly can't debate the arguments.

well, and this is something perhaps Segovius and myself don't agree on - Its utterly ridiculous to discuss all the nuances of Jesus teaching in the rigid context you present them, if the cold hard fact of the matter is that he didn't ever exist in the first place.

If you want to show that I, (or perhaps we) are wrong in our interpretation, you should prove that Jesus did infact exist in the flesh, in history as you say he did. Until that is established (and lets be honest, no-one has been able to do that in 2000 years, except by coercion by torture - so I doubt you'll be the first), then all you are doing is trying to prop-up your own bigotries, hatreds and ignorances with an emotional appeal to authority.

Well, for what its worth - Screw your fake authority, screw your bigotry and screw your ignorance. And screw Jesus too.

Infact, you might wonder why perhaps Segovius and myself get along at all - considering that Sego accepts Jesus' teaching and I utterly reject it. Yet there is a reason, and its something you will never understand.
post #126 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Paul did not make anything up. It takes quite a bit of dishonesty to claim that the the teachings of Jesus are somehow at odds with the church's position on sexual sin.

And what evidence do you have to support this? I'm not claiming Paul made anything up, but you so strongly declare that Paul did not make anything up, that one cannot help but wonder if you have some strong evidence to show that.

So, got any?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #127 of 188
It's hard to say what it even means to refer to Paul making stuff up. He is basically the founder of the religion of Christianity, and wrote a good portion of the New Testament, but he didn't know Jesus. So if by "making stuff up," it is meant that he didn't have approval from Jesus for his ideas, well that goes without saying. Furthermore he also seems to have had disagreements with those who did know Jesus.

As an aside, the disagreements with Paul were on the basis that Paul wasn't "Jewish" enough and Jesus wouldn't have approved of his disavowing the old laws. So it's too simplistic to say that Jesus and his followers were the "liberals" and Paul was the "conservative."
post #128 of 188
Interview with Gary DeMar

This guy is pretty out there. In the interview (link above, quote below):

Quote:
DeMar is a leading promoter of an extremist theology called Christian Reconstructionism, also known as Theocratic Dominionism, which, according to journalist and author Frederick Clarkson, "argues that the Bible is to be the governing text for all areas of life -- such as government, education, law, and the arts, not merely 'social' or 'moral' issues like pornography, homosexuality, and abortion."

In his essay, "Theocratic Dominionism Gains Influence," Clarkson stated that under a Christian Reconstructionist government, "[w]omen would be generally relegated to hearth and home. Insufficiently Christian men would be denied citizenship, perhaps executed. So severe is this theocracy that it would extend capital punishment beyond such crimes as kidnapping, rape, and murder to include, among other things, blasphemy, heresy, adultery, and homosexuality."

As Americans United for Separation of Church and State documented, DeMar wrote in his book, Ruler of the Nations: Biblical Principles for Government (Dominion Press, 1987): "The law that requires the death penalty for homosexual acts effectually drives the perversion of homosexuality back into the closet." DeMar added: "The long term goal [is] the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them. If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty."

DeMar further articulated his views during an exchange on an Atlanta radio show in 1991 with liberal Christian activist Skipp Porteous and host Paul Gonzalez:

DeMAR: The definition of Christian Reconstruction is simply this: The Bible applies to every facet of life. That means not just the judicial aspects of life, such as civil government, church government, but business, economics -- every facet of society. The Bible has something to say about each area. For example, on homosexuals: We do not believe that homosexuals ought to be executed. The Bible doesn't say that homosexuals ought to be executed. What it says is this: If two men lie together like man and woman, they are to be put to death.

PORTEOUS: What the hell do you think that is?

DeMAR: Well, wait a minute. If a guy comes up to me and he says, "I'm a homosexual," that doesn't mean he's to be executed. If you understand the Scriptures, it says very clearly: If a man comes up to you and says, "I've murdered somebody," that doesn't mean that person ought to be executed.

GONZALES: Oh, so what you are saying, Gary, is, if you catch homosexuals in the act, then the Bible says to execute them.

DeMAR: The Bible lays forth the severest penalty, which would be capital punishment for two men who publicly engage in sodomy.

DeMar continued by stating his nominal support for the death penalty for adulterers and abortion doctors:

GONZALES: If, indeed, the Reconstructionist movement ever made it in America, would you advocate these biblical principles being carried out: the execution of the adulterer, the abortionist, and the homosexual?

DeMAR: I'm saying that they could be implemented, yes.

See this link also

There you go. Plain as the authoritarian mustache on Hitlers face. If he's saying that kind of stuff publicly, his privately held vision is probably even more out there, and severe, if humanly possible. Gary DeMar is an extreme fundamentalist wacko who, given the power, aims to institute a Taliban-like society in the US.

Having just plowed through the entire thread, *shakes head sadly* it is most disturbing that some in here are apologists for fascism. It is even more disturbing that President Bush apparently apparently has shown support for this maniac who advocates the systematic capital elimination of those who fail to conform to carefully cherrypicked parts of the Old Testament.

Like father, like son, and grandson (or, the acorn doesnt fall far from the oak tree): Bush's Granddad, Prescott Bush was pretty sympathetic to the ideals of the German Nazi Party. Not only was he busted twice under the Trading with the Enemy Act for doing deals with Nazi German corporations but also was one of the prime movers in the Eugenics Movement in America from which the Nazi leader drew "inspiration" for his perverted "Master Race" ideology.

[rant]There are very uncomfortable parallels between the Gary DeMar etc brand of perverted "Christianity", and the ethnic cleansing/massmurder/eugenics activities favored by some of the sickest examples of humanity that have fouled this planet. Yes, one may retort, this will never happen here. We are a civilized nation, protected by the Constitution, a system of laws, checks and balances and the Bill of Rights. But as we speak, these are being subtly and systematically dismantled, using 9-11 as a "justification". What will it take for the likes of Gary deMar and the extreme right wing religious to gain a far stronger foothold? Another major attack in America (blamed on Muslims/Iran) with an obedient cowardly media in tow, would probably see the dismantling of the US Constitution clearing the way for the setting up of the type of "end times" society that the hard right "Christian" religious nutjobs are after. George Bush has even publicly stated: "Iran will be my legacy".

Bring em on! (as in the return of the Pink Triangle, martial law and the Rapture perhaps?) [/end rant]
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #129 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It's hard to say what it even means to refer to Paul making stuff up. He is basically the founder of the religion of Christianity, and wrote a good portion of the New Testament, but he didn't know Jesus. So if by "making stuff up," it is meant that he didn't have approval from Jesus for his ideas, well that goes without saying. Furthermore he also seems to have had disagreements with those who did know Jesus.

As an aside, the disagreements with Paul were on the basis that Paul wasn't "Jewish" enough and Jesus wouldn't have approved of his disavowing the old laws. So it's too simplistic to say that Jesus and his followers were the "liberals" and Paul was the "conservative."

Well, I think 'making things up' is a bit strong. He simply had a different interpretation - bit like some of us here actually.

Re the Bible evidence - this is inadmissable in my view in any discussion of Paul v Jesus for the simple reason that if we are to accept hypothetically that there was a divergence then evidence of that divergence would have to have been suppressed in the BIble in order for us to arrive at the point where no divergence is visible.

And we know for sure - that is those of us who respect the academic method and have allegiance to reason rather than belief - that the Bible has been subject to alteration, adjustment, cherry-picking of books for inclusion, suppression of books marked for exclusion and translations which owe more to stream of consciousness ad-lib expression than to linguistic accuracy.

I think it is also worthwhile to examine the character of Paul. It is clear from certain passages in the NT that he somehow felt inferior to the disciples - surely these passages are remnants of more detailed excised material - but also it should be remembered that he was a professional witch-hunter before his conversion.

Generally it is assumed - that is to say, the propaganda attempts to project this image - that he was persecuting Christians. This is not the whole truth.

Paul was persecuting a certain sect that believed in Jesus but still kept the Sabbath and the Judaic law. I think the more one ponders this fact the more things fall into place.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #130 of 188
Thread Starter 
This Luce character is getting worse by the minute - and yes, there does seem to be a connection with DeMar (of which more later) but first one word: [b]Hypocrisy. In fact, let's make it two words: unf***ingbelievable hypocrisy.

This takes some chutzpah:

Luce is well known for fulminating against modern culture and particularly popular music (two areas where I happen to agree with him almost 100% if you leave the extreme-right wing conservative moronicism out of the analysis) and on the occasion under consideration ranted at length against the popular recording artiste known as Kid Rock.

Who that is I haven't the foggiest but it is not the point. This is where it stinks (or rather the stench increases):

Quote:
Ron Luce then goes on to quote lyrics he finds offensive, including the titles and partial lyrics of two songs by Kid Rock. This, from the head of an organization that's hired Nocturne Productions, a firm that's working in support of Kid Rock's current tour.

Nocturne, an international production company whose website lists Madonna, BonJovi and Nine Inch Nails as some of the tours they're involved with just in 2006, is also involved in the production of "BattleCry." Nocturne Productions is named in the credits of the video coverage of the first two "BattleCry" events, aired on TBN, JCTV and the NRB Network.

Nocturne is also named as one of the top five independent contractors on Teen Mania's tax return, having been paid $91,500 for services in the year ending August 2004.

Unbelievable.

But hypocrisy on this scale is not surprising or shocking. It is practically the minimum price of admission (if you are a 'leader' - for one of the flock the minimum price is a bit more material), what is shocking is the militaristic war-obsessed paradigm that Luce is hell-bent (and I mean that literally) on brainwashing impressionable minds with.

Consider the following horrific facts - Luce has released a series of books and tracts outlining methods of harassing innocent members of the public with a view to corralling them into his peculiar belief system and in the process, fleece their wallets presumably.

This series is, chillingly, called Stealth Evangelism and is a classic 'bait and switch' attempt at luring people into the cult under false pretenses. But it is the chapter headings that make the blood run cold:

1.CREATE A HIT LIST (ie of mugs targeted for indoctrination)

3. READ THEM THEIR RIGHTS (???? Don't think he means free speech here)

4. BOOK 'EM (or 'hook em' ?)

11. INTERROGATION (!)

12. CROSS EXAMINATION (!!!!)

25. S.W.A.T. TEAM

And yes, it is serious. And far, far worse than you think. It details how to target the weak and vulnerable in their weakest moments - ie by crashing in on domestic violence situations, targeting the oppressed and those down on their luck etc.

The aggressive macho theme continues apace (what the hell is it with all this macho stuff? Really that alone is the antithesis of the figure of Christ) with this all time classic:

Quote:
This manual will help you start a R.I.O.T. - a Righteous Invasion of Truth - in your town. We wrote it to get you ready for battle and to send you into war. Our purpose is not to tell you about a R.I.O.T., but to motivate and equip you to get a R.I.O.T. going. A R.I.O.T. makes the devil mad and brings lots of people to Christ.

It's utterly incredible. How did people ever get stupid enough to buy into this crap?

Next up: the links to Dominionist Theology and big business.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #131 of 188
Thread Starter 
One other thing - and this really deserves a thread of it's own but what the hell (no-one reads this stuff anyway) it seems that the fundies have been indulging in a bit if the old Qur'an burning.

Btw - can you imagine if in the US a Muslim group started burning the Bible shouting we must convert Christians ? I know they would never do this as this sort of mania seems confined to Christianity but just imagine.....

Quote:
n the run-up to the Koran burning, Benham had this to say:

"And we have now three choices when we deal with Islam. We can be killed by them, and you witnessed it at 9-11 and we're witnessing it now. We can kill them, and we have been doing that in the wars we have been fighting lately. Or we can convert them to Christ. Now, which one do you choose?"

As Benham made clear to me directly in a later conversation, he does not believe that there can be co-existence between his flavor of Christianity and any other religion, that "religious pluralism" is a lie. He insists that there will always be a battle for dominance, and that what passes for coexistence is just a phase leading up to that battle of one group eventually conquering the other; that one group will always be ascendant, and others will be conquered.

Of course he is merely (correctly) describing his own and Extremist Right-Wing Christianity's mindset when he says there will always be a 'desire for dominance' - but he knows nothing of other faiths and couldn't care less.

I wholeheartedly agree with one of the comments from the article:

Quote:
Such intolerence and hate is not religious at all. It is evil, pure and simple. It is not Christ-like. Jesus Christ made a point of being loving and tender to the lowlife, the outcast and the most despised of society.

Yes, evil - pure evil.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #132 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
it is most disturbing that some in here are apologists for fascism.

Who?

Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
It is even more disturbing that President Bush apparently apparently has shown support for this maniac who advocates the systematic capital elimination of those who fail to conform to carefully cherrypicked parts of the Old Testament.

Show us where/how "President Bush apparently apparently has shown support for this maniac".
post #133 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Show us where/how "President Bush apparently apparently has shown support for this maniac".

Done that one.

Why don't you just say "Whatever the facts I refuse to accept that President Bush has shown support for this maniac"
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #134 of 188
Originally posted by segovius

"Btw - can you imagine if in the US a Muslim group started burning the Bible shouting we must convert Christians ? I know they would never do this as this sort of mania seems confined to Christianity "

Of course not, Islam is the faith of tolerance.

An aside: Christians are protesting The Da Vinci Code as it opens in the US today. They will march in front of cinemas with signs, sing songs and do a little shouting. How do you think Muslims would react to a similar movie about The Prophet Mohammed?
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #135 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
Yes, I think that they do seek political power and I'm sure that they have some political power within their element. However, I don't see enough Americans identifing with their message for them to ever aquire significant power. Maybe I give the people too much credit.

GRABowski how you been man?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #136 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
Originally posted by segovius

"Btw - can you imagine if in the US a Muslim group started burning the Bible shouting we must convert Christians ? I know they would never do this as this sort of mania seems confined to Christianity "

Of course not, Islam is the faith of tolerance.

An aside: Christians are protesting The Da Vinci Code as it opens in the US today. They will march in front of cinemas with signs, sing songs and do a little shouting. How do you think Muslims would react to a similar movie about The Prophet Mohammed?

I know you are attempting sarcasm but in essence you are correct - just like Christianity, Islam IS a religion of tolerance. That's what religion is. All religion. Tolerance.

Of course we are not discussing religion or Christians or Muslims here - we are discussing intolerant bigots.

Once again: I take Christianity and Islam to mean:

THE TEACHINGS OUTLINED BY THE ORIGINAL FOUNDERS AND THE INJUNCTIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES OF EACH

Therefore, when I say 'Christian' I refer to the teachings of Christ (with which I agree) and my point in 'bashing' is to identify and point out the shysters who have hijacked the religion and pose a significant threat.

Likewise, when I say 'Muslim' I refer to the teachings of Muhammad (with which I agree) and my point in 'bashing' is to identify and point out the shysters who have hijacked the religion and pose a significant threat.

Now it so happens that the Islamist fundie threat at this time is greater but that is not the point - there are socio-political reasons for this not religious ones. The fact is that EXTREMISM is on the march and it is manifesting (differently) in all religions - though some are ahead of others - extremism is the root cause and not any one religion.

So, to answer your question - I would say exactly what I would say that neither Christians or Muslims would react in this way so I think that neither would get steamed up.

Of course people who claim to be either but in reality are neither will protest and the ones who claim to be Muslims may well resort to violence. So what? I will denounce them too.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #137 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski


An aside: Christians are protesting The Da Vinci Code as it opens in the US today. They will march in front of cinemas with signs, sing songs and do a little shouting. How do you think Muslims would react to a similar movie about The Prophet Mohammed?

why are they actually doing that then? Seems mighty ignorant of understanding the scripture if they believe Jesus wasn't married.
post #138 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
GRABowski how you been man?

Fellows

I found his cousin

post #139 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Done that one.

No you haven't.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Why don't you just say "Whatever the facts I refuse to accept that President Bush has shown support for this maniac"

Duh? Because they haven't.
post #140 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
No you haven't.
Duh? Because they haven't.

What part of the reading out of a letter from G.W at a rally, followed by "Thank God for people like George Bush" DONT you understand?

or perhaps we are to conclude that you are just parodying your little "Appeal to facts" gaffe?

Have to admit, it is a good trait to be able to take the piss out of yourself as well as you do.
post #141 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
How do you think Muslims would react to a similar movie about The Prophet Mohammed?

Another thing I just thought of: there are plenty of 'alternative' traditions in Islam - they are all tolerated as it happens.

They have never been that popular but they have never been suppressed in quite the same way as in Christianity (mass murder of half a million Cathars and Albigensians in France for example) and the Islamic attitude is, generally: that is your view, we don't agree.

The Sunni/Shi'i split would be a good example but one might also cite Sufism whose practitioners often claim they can achieve one-ness with God themselves.

In fact the 'Muslims' you refer to who always react badly to perceived insult are merely one such group - usually Wahabi or Salafist or (as in the case of the Taleban) Deobandi.

All these groups consist of at most, less than say 6-10% of Muslim belief worldwide.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #142 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
No you haven't.



Duh? Because they haven't.

Ok, how about: there are no circumstances under which I would accept that President Bush has shown support for this maniac.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #143 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
This Luce character is getting worse by the minute - and yes, there does seem to be a connection with DeMar (of which more later)

Show us please. You've been asked a few times and continue to draw a connection but provide no support for it. More dishonest smoke and mirrors.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
[B]but first one word: Hypocrisy. In fact, let's make it two words: unf***ingbelievable hypocrisy.

This takes some chutzpah:

This is where it stinks (or rather the stench increases):

But hypocrisy on this scale is not surprising or shocking.

segovius you are just priceless. Your righteous indignation is just plain humorous. I keep coming to this thread most for the entertainment value of seeing your madness play out. Next you'll be telling us that they both buy their suits from the same store.
post #144 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Ok, how about: there are no circumstances under which I would accept that President Bush has shown support for this maniac.

Well if you had shown any (and we're talking about De Mar if you look at the sequence of posts) maybe we could talk.
post #145 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
and my point in 'bashing' is to identify and point out the shysters who have hijacked the religion and pose a significant threat.

I know I'll have to keep correcting you on this...but once again...

The "shysters" who you think have hijacked the religion and who you think pose a significant threat.
post #146 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Show us please. You've been asked a few times and continue to draw a connection but provide no support for it. More dishonest smoke and mirrors.

There's only one connection you need to know: they are both extreme right-wing Fundies Xians (as opposed to Christians which obviously can't be either fundie, extreme or arguably, right-wing).
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #147 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
There's only one connection you need to know: they are both extreme right-wing Fundies Xians (as opposed to Christians which obviously can't be either fundie, extreme or arguably, right-wing).

Riiiighht. Got it now.

So you have nothing except your imagintation to connect them.

Got it.

BTW...maybe I have read you wrong this whole thread. Perhaps I have mistaken you to actually be serious when, in reality, you are simply honing your comedy routine.
post #148 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I know I'll have to keep correcting you on this...but once again...

The "shysters" who you think have hijacked the religion and who you think pose a significant threat.

Ok, tell you what, let's have a dialogue like the al-Qaeda terrorists and the Imams in Yemen. Same premise - you show me/prove how these people I am ranting against are following the real teaching of Christ and I will publicly admit I was wrong and mend my ways forever.

here are my 'core issues' to give you a start:

1) Difficult to see how rampaging hatred of other lifestyles fits into the big picture.

2) Guns and military machismo. Missed the passages in the NT advocating this - was it the Sermon on the Mount?

3) General uptight conservatism and moralistic hypocrisy. Again, can;t stretch it to see Jesus through that lens...sorry...

Please help. I want to change.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #149 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I want to change.....

No you don't.
post #150 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Riiiighht. Got it now.

So you have nothing except your imagintation to connect them.

Got it.

BTW...maybe I have read you wrong this whole thread. Perhaps I have mistaken you to actually be serious when, in reality, you are simply honing your comedy routine.

Err...no....so far we have: a shared ideology, blind mindless support for Republican policies, equally rabid support of Israel, convergent goals and aims, identical weltanschauung, same nauseatingly abhorrent moral framework and identical religious beliefs most likely because they are both members of an extreme fringe sector of the same religion..........hello??????

This is getting like Monty Python or a Bill Hicks routine.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #151 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
No you don't.

Well, that's true but the fundies want to change me.......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #152 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Well, that's true but the fundies want to change me.......

They can't change what you or I believe. They can try to change policy. All more the reason for those who live in a country where they can vote to do so. Your "fundies" believe in the system and they know how to use it. Those who despise Bush should not whine about elections being stolen but should rather should scold their brethren for not voting.

Moe
"some catch on faster than others"
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post #153 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
GRABowski how you been man?

Fellows

Greetings Fellows. Smoking seems out of character for you.
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post #154 of 188

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #155 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Meanwhile, back on Earth...

so your point is?

Its another example of rabid fundamentalism, which I totally oppose, and so does sego.

quote
"The world should not ignore this," said Rabbi Hier. "The world ignored Hitler for many years -- he was dismissed as a demagogue, they said he'd never come to power -- and we were all wrong."

which is exacly WHY you should be opposing the growth of Extremism in your own country, and not dismissing it as just a bunch of minority cranks.
post #156 of 188
Thread Starter 
^^^^^^^^ Brilliant post - abslolutely spot-on.

'Never again' and 'we must learn never to repeat past mistakes' really only boils down to this:

If history repeats itself in exactly the same way, using exactly the same methods, targeting exactly the same people in exactly the same place then we might think about doing something.

Until then it's a blank cheque for every fascist extremist under the sun - as long as they aren't Muslim, they drape themselves in the flag and they gibber on interminably about God and morality.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #157 of 188
There is nothing wrong with pointing out extremism on all sides, but I think that you greatly overestimate Christian extremism. I dont worry about Christian extremist, because I dont see them as significant players. We focus on Muslim extremists because they tend to be slightly more violent in their ACTIONS. The Da Vinci code is a good test of Christian extremism. Will the Christian extremists go "Mohamed Cartoon"? Probably not.
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post #158 of 188
Interesting how the progressive folk ignore DMZ's link.

"Iran eyes badges for Jews
Law would require non-Muslim insignia"

Where are all of those who want to compare Bush to Hitler and those who see fascism behind every American corner? They freaking want to put labels on Jews and Christians all I assume all other non-Muslims! What if GWB proclaimed that all not Christians needed to wear labels so we new who they freaking were? Try some intellectual honesty people.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...f-546709b1240f
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post #159 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
Interesting how the progressive folk ignore DMZ's link.

"Iran eyes badges for Jews
Law would require non-Muslim insignia"

Where are all of those who want to compare Bush to Hitler and those who see fascism behind every American corner? They freaking want to put labels on Jews and Christians all I assume all other non-Muslims! What if GWB proclaimed that all not Christians needed to wear labels so we new who they freaking were? Try some intellectual honesty people.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...f-546709b1240f

Maybe because it is a proven lie?

Yes, looks like the Iran report was a load of horseshit designed to play into the will to believe such things of people like DMZ.

Now what sort of people would make up lies like that.....hmmm......and how could they manage to get them in the media......interesting.

Quote:
independent reporter Meir Javedanfar, an Israeli Middle East expert who was born and raised in Tehran, says the report is false.

"It's absolutely factually incorrect," he told The New 940 Montreal.
"Nowhere in the law is there any talk of Jews and Christians having to wear different colours. I've checked it with sources both inside Iran and outside."

"The Iranian people would never stand for it. The Iranian government wouldn't be stupid enough to do it."

Basically all part of the drip, drip, drip drive to war of the fanatical neocon Xians and there lust for Muslim blood. Doesn't matter if it's inevitably proved false - idiots will always quote and believe it and after all, it is merely prepping - dehumanizing the enemy for slaughter.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #160 of 188
Thread Starter 
And another thing - if anyone thinks that this law could be passed two years ago and only now hit the headlines (ie Jewish lobby groups in Iran and around the world as well as the Bush anti-Iran machine and the Iranian pro-Democracy movements all missed it)they really are out there in orbit.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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