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New Extremist Threat Alert.... - Page 3

post #81 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Of course Leviticus says a lot of other horseshit too:

Lev 20:2\tAgain, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.


Lev 20:3\tAnd I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

I don't understand. You're defending the sacrificing of children to the god Molech?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #82 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Also, segovious, is there any way you could explain why someone like yourself --- who has deliberately and persistently misrepresented Christian positions for effect --- even deserves an answer? How could anyone take seriously your notion of insisting absolutely that you don't/won't function in a world of absolutes: which allows you to use every dirty trick in the book to be viciously critical of this same Truth?

There's no way to win -- even if you lose on the 'death to gays' thing, you can easily retreat on principle and regurgitate the usual tried & true fundie bashing points --- whether it be guilt by association with Islamic fundies, or the dreaded Spanish Inquisition critique.

You're starting to sound like a broken record.

BS - I have consistently supported real Christianity and the teachings of Jesus.

Unfortunately some people exist who claim to be Christians who are perverting that teaching into hate. I am merely pointing that out.

If you focus on my comments on the haters and fake-Christians and see the need to defend them then all that says is that you feel the hate-Christianity is the real deal.

I will continue pointing out and continue supporting the teaching of Christ.

And you and Cuilla can continue defending the distortion.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #83 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth.

Thank you. I haven't read the link because I never do with yours but let's assume it is something about Islamic extremists.

That gives me the chance to say this:

The nutter fundie Islamic literalists discussed in that post are pushing a sick perversion of Islam contrary to the teachings of Muhammad and the spirit of spirituality.

I take it there will be no argument from you.

Now let me CONTINUE to say this:

The nutter fundie Christian literalists discussed in this thread are portraying a sick perversion of Christianity contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the spirit of spirituality.

Now tell me why you are supporting them.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #84 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Now tell me why you are supporting them.

Because They Took Our Jobs! Tookerjerrbbs! (oops, wrong thread)

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #85 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Now tell me why you are supporting them.

Nobody in this thread is supporting the killing of homosexuals, and everyone has recognized your dishonesty.

The difference is that most clear thinking people (Christians and others) realize that Demar has no hope of carrying out his wishes, and it makes no sense to raise his profile by taking him seriously.

Of course, your agenda in the thread has always been to use him to slander a group of Evangelical Christians you disagree with.

Give it up already.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #86 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
I don't understand. You're defending the sacrificing of children to the god Molech?

I possibly misinterpreted the word seed (I have a dirty mind). Anyway, here's more examples of Leviticus's horseshit:

Lev 20:9\tFor every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him.


Lev 20:10\tAnd the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


And, god dammit, you can't forget this gem:

Lev 24:16\tAnd he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

Now you gotta stone me!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #87 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Nobody in this thread is supporting the killing of homosexuals, and everyone has recognized your dishonesty.

The difference is that most clear thinking people (Christians and others) realize that Demar has no hope of carrying out his wishes, and it makes no sense to raise his profile by taking him seriously.

Of course, your agenda in the thread has always been to use him to slander a group of Evangelical Christians you disagree with.

Give it up already.

No. My purpose is to oppose extremism.

All the Christians posting here - with one honourable and notable exception - feel the need to avoid condemning the extremists and see an attack on Christian extremism as an attack on their own beliefs.

Most probably because they are their own beliefs.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #88 of 188
And of course, an extremist is defined as anyone who disagrees with you.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #89 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
And of course, an extremist is defined as anyone who disagrees with you.

This is the definition of irony here.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #90 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
This is the definition of irony here.

I don't see how. I participate in threads advocating positions according to my world view.

But I try to debate the ideas. I don't start threads so I can make myself feel better by calling people names.

How many of Sego's threads contain the words "Fundie" and "Extremist" or both?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #91 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
I don't see how. I participate in threads advocating positions according to my world view.

But I try to debate the ideas. I don't start threads so I can make myself feel better by calling people names.

How many of Sego's threads contain the words "Fundie" and "Extremist" or both?

I was referring to your oversimplistic generalization of what Sego considers a fundie.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #92 of 188
double post

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #93 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
How many of Sego's threads contain the words "Fundie" and "Extremist" or both?

Got to be over 70%. So what?

What's your point? Some people have a 90% rating on 'tablet mac'.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as an extremist? Or perhaps you think there is no threat from extremism? Maybe, even, you don;t consider it a topic worthy of discussion if your measure is a word-count.

Seems strange to me - this is a Political forum (of sorts) and global politics has been redefined in the light of extremism to the extent some people call it an ongoing war - and you think it is somehow a topic that can be talked about to excess?

Only you don't mean that do you? Another glaring example of someone else here being dishonest.

Admit it - you mean something quite different than the quantity of posts about this issue.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #94 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
"Besen pointed out that one of the speakers at the "Reclaiming America" conference is Gary DeMar, whom Besen described as a recognized leader in the Reconstructionist movement. "DeMar once said of homosexuality: ‘The Bible doesn’t say that homosexuals should be executed. What it says is this: If two men lie together like a man and a woman lie together, they are to be put to death.’"

http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archi...ations/exodus/

Then gays will be pretty secure, since they don't lie together like a man and a woman, they are usually not facing each other while doing it...

Nightcrawler
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post #95 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
First, attributing this "kill the gays" statement to Battlecry when, as far as I can tell, there was no link, and second, yes the "throw the first stone" issue. C-C's statement was outright condemning it.

I've studied that story recently, and it's one of the best Jesus stories, really.

Problem is only, exactly that story seems not to be part of early scriptures of the gospels..

Edit: Sorry, should have read your whole posting before hitting the reply-button, since you have mentioned it already yourself.

Nightcrawler
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post #96 of 188
Thread Starter 
The homophobic aspect of the Bible seems a peculiarly Old Testament fixation and the psychological reasons behind it are quite interesting. They are still present today in the right-wing Christian paradigm (we need a not here don't we: NOT the only, or even genuine, Christian manifestation - just the most simplistic) and invariably - as with all prejudice - have a symbiotic relationship with war, punishment, xenophobia and iterations of revenge.

Conversely, the New Testament is very different in tone and a lot of people see a homo-erotic element in it in numerous places - although the OT has its moments in this regard.

Certainly Jesus himself made precisely zero comments on the issue - imagine today's anti-gay Christians (those that are I mean jeesh) actually buttoning up on this issue. Surely if he was as rabid as they are he would have let something slip?

And what about this little gem:

Quote:
"Some men are born eunuchs from their mother's womb, and some have been made eunuchs by men, and some have become eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven."

Matthew 19:12

And of course there is the infamous incident in the Garden of Gethsemane just prior to Jesus' arrest:

Quote:
"With Jesus was a certain young man wearing a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him. And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked."

Mark 14:51-52

This is from the traditional Gospel of Mark (ie a heavily edited amalgam of several earlier separate versions) however we now possess some of these versions and referenced quotes to them by the Church Fathers. One such which expands the theme and fill in missing (ie removed) text is from a letter of Clement of Alexandria:

Quote:
"The young man looked at Jesus, loved him, and began to beg him to be with him....Six days later. Jesus gave him an order; and when evening had come, the young man went to him, dressed only in a linen cloth. He spent the night with him, because Jesus taught him the mystery of God's domain.

.......The sister of the young man whom Jesus loved was there, along with his mother and Salome, but Jesus refused to see them."

This 'disciple Jesus loved' also features in the orthodox New Testament as not all references have been fully excised by the Church in all versions.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #97 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The homophobic aspect of the Bible seems a peculiarly Old Testament fixation and the psychological reasons behind it are quite interesting. They are still present today in the right-wing Christian paradigm (we need a not here don't we: NOT the only, or even genuine, Christian manifestation - just the most simplistic) and invariably - as with all prejudice - have a symbiotic relationship with war, punishment, xenophobia and iterations of revenge.

Conversely, the New Testament is very different in tone and a lot of people see a homo-erotic element in it in numerous places - although the OT has its moments in this regard.

Certainly Jesus himself made precisely zero comments on the issue - imagine today's anti-gay Christians (those that are I mean jeesh) actually buttoning up on this issue. Surely if he was as rabid as they are he would have let something slip?

And what about this little gem:



And of course there is the infamous incident in the Garden of Gethsemane just prior to Jesus' arrest:



This is from the traditional Gospel of Mark (ie a heavily edited amalgam of several earlier separate versions) however we now possess some of these versions and referenced quotes to them by the Church Fathers. One such which expands the theme and fill in missing (ie removed) text is from a letter of Clement of Alexandria:



This 'disciple Jesus loved' also features in the orthodox New Testament as not all references have been fully excised by the Church in all versions.

Problem is only, only to our modern ears and brain is love associated with sexuality. Jesus loved him,just like David loved his companion, didn't mean what we today understand under that terms, but merely spiritual love like between brothers.

There is another term that is used in the old texts to hint at sexual activity, and that is something like "he knew her".

Nightcrawler
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post #98 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Nightcrawler
Problem is only, only to our modern ears and brain is love associated with sexuality. Jesus loved him,just like David loved his companion, didn't mean what we today understand under that terms, but merely spiritual love like between brothers.

There is another term that is used in the old texts to hint at sexual activity, and that is something like "he knew her".

Nightcrawler

I agree - all I'm saying is that different interpretations can be put on anything depending on time, place, personality etc.

We are all free to believe whichever we choose but we should respect others belief even if it conflicts or we believe it is wrong.

The only thing we can't do - or let's say, the thing I personally would try to actively prevent - is to force our own personal view onto others. That's what this thread is about. People who do that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #99 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The only thing we can't do - or let's say, the thing I personally would try to actively prevent - is to force our own personal view onto others. That's what this thread is about. People who do that.

Correction. It is about people that you think are doing that.
post #100 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I agree - all I'm saying is that different interpretations can be put on anything depending on time, place, personality etc.

We are all free to believe whichever we choose but we should respect others belief even if it conflicts or we believe it is wrong.

The only thing we can't do - or let's say, the thing I personally would try to actively prevent - is to force our own personal view onto others. That's what this thread is about. People who do that.

I don't agree. I think with a thorough and elaborate exegesis, one can establish the meaning of the old texts.

Literalists though don't do that thorough exegesis, they take a verse out of its scriptural and historic context and take it at face-value.

The contrary would be the approch you prefer, any interpretation and any reading would be equally legit.

Nightcrawler
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post #101 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No. My purpose is to oppose extremism.

All the Christians posting here - with one honourable and notable exception - feel the need to avoid condemning the extremists and see an attack on Christian extremism as an attack on their own beliefs.

Most probably because they are their own beliefs.

No one here is supporting extremist views. Those here challenging you are not doing so in support of decapitating gays and lesbians. We are opposing your reaching for straws and creating a totally made up "the evil fundies are coming" view of the world. Christians had their violent times in history and there is nothing wrong with maintaining vigilance and not allowing those days to be revisited. You, however, have become fully consumed by this issue and it has eroded your credibility.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #102 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
...it has eroded your credibility.

I can't stress that enough, phrases like...

"New Testament...a lot of people see a homo-erotic element in it in numerous places"

...make you sound as though you're either intellectually disoriented on a very basic level, or just throwing mud.

If there were one mainline denomination, one catechism, one commentary, one theologian that you could point to, that would be one thing, but you are painting yourself as some sort of "let's pretend" historian.

Seriously, all the statements of faith by every major denonimation are in public domian, you should take some time to familiarize yourself with them before you throwing out passages willy-nilly.

(Love you, sweetie. )

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #103 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I can't stress that enough, phrases like...

"New Testament...a lot of people see a homo-erotic element in it in numerous places"

A lot of people do see that. So what - I'm not one of them but I can report those who do without having to push my own opinion.

Can you? No....oh....that's what we're talking about. Or rather what I'm talking about and you are intellectually incapable of grasping.

Trying to love you too (not like that) - but only because God said so....

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #104 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The homophobic aspect of the Bible seems a peculiarly Old Testament fixation and the psychological reasons behind it are quite interesting. They are still present today in the right-wing Christian paradigm (we need a not here don't we: NOT the only, or even genuine, Christian manifestation - just the most simplistic) and invariably - as with all prejudice - have a symbiotic relationship with war, punishment, xenophobia and iterations of revenge.

Conversely, the New Testament is very different in tone and a lot of people see a homo-erotic element in it in numerous places - although the OT has its moments in this regard.

Paul pretty clearly condemns homosexuality in the New Testament. He had quite the social conservative views, actually, regarding women especially.
post #105 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
A lot of people do see that. So what - I'm not one of them but I can report those who do without having to push my own opinion.

Can you? No....oh....that's what we're talking about. Or rather what I'm talking about and you are intellectually incapable of grasping.

Trying to love you too (not like that) - but only because God said so....


I think I'm on ignore Seg, so I am probably talking to myself. So be it.

Your deep intellectualism is not beyond our grasp. The problem is that you are obsessed with this. I am open to legitimate criticisms of Christianity and Christians. Pointing out every whacko that claims to speak for Christianity is neither intellectual nor productive. These whackos are not taking over Christianity. They are not inspiring young Christians to explode themselves in gay bars. These people are irrelevant whackos and that is why I don't care about them. Yes, that is my opinion. I am not intellectual enough to post without opinion, like you do. Right..
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #106 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Paul pretty clearly condemns homosexuality in the New Testament. He had quite the social conservative views, actually, regarding women especially.

Paul was in many ways hijacked Christ's teaching though didn't he? Certainly he was in disagreement with the disciples over key issues - he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder about them actually.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #107 of 188
One more thing, and then I'll shut up.

When you talk about guys like De Mar, who essentially want to bring back the structural economy of old Israel, you need to recognize that without the supporting institutions (a priesthood, a certain family structure, a total lack of law enforcement officials, two or three eye witnesses for any conviction, close-knit agrarian society, bla, bla, bla...) you have nothing:

"Oh yea, stone the incorrigible children...."
"....yes, but the parents had to carry out the execution in front of the community."

hmmmmmm....

to quote a conversation from The Hunt for Red October:

"....Could you fire an ICBM horizontally?"
"...sure, why would you want to?"

...so for guys like De Mar, it's in for a penny, in for a pound, which is at best, profoundly short-sighted and anachronistic.

As strict as the Puritans got, even they knew that the OT law was..... (from the uber-strict The Westminster Confession, Chapter 19):

Quote:
1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

2. This law, after his Fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness, and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God, and the other six out duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits, and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated under the New Testament.

4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other, now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

5. The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither doth Christ in the gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

...abrogated, at least as CCing the structure and economy of Israel was concerned.

But -- going back to my original point -- trying to argue this "kill the gays" things with people who cringe at even putting serial killers to death, or are nursing a personal vendetta against Christianity. is crazy especially if grist they're grinding is a continual stream of red herrings and speculation on pure conjecture. (!)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #108 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
I think I'm on ignore Seg, so I am probably talking to myself. So be it.

Your deep intellectualism is not beyond our grasp. The problem is that you are obsessed with this. I am open to legitimate criticisms of Christianity and Christians. Pointing out every whacko that claims to speak for Christianity is neither intellectual nor productive. These whackos are not taking over Christianity. They are not inspiring young Christians to explode themselves in gay bars. These people are irrelevant whackos and that is why I don't care about them. Yes, that is my opinion. I am not intellectual enough to post without opinion, like you do. Right..

You are not on ignore. I'm not sure what it would take but it's not something I utilize.

Re your points:

1) Obsession: I would not consider myself obsessed - but then I wouldn't if I was so I guess it's possible - but rather it is an issue with which i have a long-time passionate interest.

Nothing wrong with that and even if I was obsessed so what? Is that a crime? No.

2) Legitimate criticism of Christianity: I cannot do this as I agree with Christ's teaching. Thus there is nothing to criticize.

If someone can show me that Christ taught hate and militarism say then I might start to attempt a legitimate criticism but as it is I will legitimately criticize the people who have hijacked the teaching. You see - that's what makes it legitimate to criticize, the fact it is not true to the original.

Al the posters here have to do to disprove this is to show where it is the same. Go for it - but they aren't even trying and nor are you. Poor.

3) These people may be irrelevant whackos to you - by the way, that undermines your argument: you claim I was criticizing Christianity, now you claim I am criticizing irrelevant whackos. Which is it? Or are both the same to you? - but to me they are not. What makes your view better than mine?

Nothing.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #109 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
One more thing, and then I'll shut up.

When you talk about guys like De Mar, who essentially want to bring back the structural economy of old Israel, you need to recognize that without the supporting institutions (a priesthood, a certain family structure, a total lack of law enforcement officials, two or three eye witnesses for any conviction, close-knit agrarian society, bla, bla, bla...) you have nothing:

"Oh yea, stone the incorrigible children...."
"....yes, but the parents had to carry out the execution in front of the community."

hmmmmmm....

to quote a conversation from The Hunt for Red October:

"....Could you fire an ICBM horizontally?"
"...sure, why would you want to?"

...so for guys like De Mar, it's in for a penny, in for a pound, which is at best, profoundly short-sighted and anachronistic.

As strict as the Puritans got, even they knew that the OT law was..... (from the uber-strict The Westminster Confession, Chapter 19):



...abrogated, at least as CCing the structure and economy of Israel was concerned.

But -- going back to my original point -- trying to argue this "kill the gays" things with people who cringe at even putting serial killers to death, or are nursing a personal vendetta against Christianity. is crazy especially if grist they're grinding is a continual stream of red herrings and speculation on pure conjecture. (!)


Look, let's put it like this: If you have a car that you like a lot and you continually hear strange and ominous rattling sounds from the engine accompanied by plumes of acrid smoke. Do you:

a) Tell yourself that this is a design feature and one that makes the car 'special'.

b) Start a campaign telling everyone it has always been like this and shouldn't be tampered with by people who want to 'wreck your car'.

c) Ignore it.

d) Take it to the garage to be checked.

Let's say that by some miraculous and circuitous bizarre conflation of events you choose d) and find yourself in your local garage facing your friendly covered in grease mechanic. He proceeds to tell you that there is a problem. Do you:

a) Start foaming at the mouth and accuse him of having a secret agenda to sabotage your beautiful car.

b) Start foaming at the mouth and accuse him of having a secret agenda to sabotage your beautiful car.

c) Start foaming at the mouth and accuse him of having a secret agenda to sabotage your beautiful car.

And on......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #110 of 188
I wouldn't confuse normal road noise with "plumes of acrid smoke" ???

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #111 of 188
I agree that these people are hijacking the teachings of Christ. What they say and what I believe Christ to have taught are very different. I consider them irrelevant whackos because I don't see them as a force to be reckoned with. In the US, we are accustomed to seeing the things we hold dearly abused and misrepresented to the point that we start to ignore all but the most vial of threats.

You have interesting views and you have added a lot to these discussions over the years. It is just my opinion that you are so hung up in this "fundie" issue that it prevents you from exploring other directions.

FYI I interpreted you previous "bye" as an ignore.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #112 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I wouldn't confuse normal road noise with "plumes of acrid smoke" ???

Depends whether you call shouting for executions of gays, storming around pulpits with assault rifles and generally spreading chaos 'normal road noise'.

I suppose in some circles (theirs) it is. My point is whether these factors were in the original design blueprint.

Some vehicles are beyond repair and need to be taken off the road. The safety of the public is paramount.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #113 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
I agree that these people are hijacking the teachings of Christ. What they say and what I believe Christ to have taught are very different. I consider them irrelevant whackos because I don't see them as a force to be reckoned with. In the US, we are accustomed to seeing the things we hold dearly abused and misrepresented to the point that we start to ignore all but the most vial of threats.

You have interesting views and you have added a lot to these discussions over the years. It is just my opinion that you are so hung up in this "fundie" issue that it prevents you from exploring other directions.

FYI I interpreted you previous "bye" as an ignore.

Oh, I thought you were leaving so I was being polite.

Let me ask you something: do you think that these people we are talking either have or desire, political power?

In my understanding they have a great deal of political power and are placed to gain more - if it wasn't for this factor then I probably would share your views about their irrelevance.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #114 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
And you and Cuilla can continue defending the distortion.

Stop lying.
post #115 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Stop lying.

Stop telling me what to do.

You know how I feel about people try to impose their values on others.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #116 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Stop telling me what to do.

You know how I feel about people try to impose their values on others.

OK. Keep lying then.

post #117 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Let me ask you something: do you think that these people we are talking either have or desire, political power?

In my understanding they have a great deal of political power and are placed to gain more

Which "these people" are you talking about?
What leads to your "understanding" that "they have a great deal of political power and are placed to gain more"?
post #118 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
and generally spreading chaos

Who is doing that exactly?
post #119 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Paul was in many ways hijacked Christ's teaching though didn't he? Certainly he was in disagreement with the disciples over key issues - he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder about them actually.

I think that case could be made, and it's definitely true that he converted not because of Jesus (whom he never knew), but because of his own personal experience. It's a bit odd that he's often considered the "first Christian," given that.
post #120 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Oh, I thought you were leaving so I was being polite.

Let me ask you something: do you think that these people we are talking either have or desire, political power?

In my understanding they have a great deal of political power and are placed to gain more - if it wasn't for this factor then I probably would share your views about their irrelevance.

Yes, I think that they do seek political power and I'm sure that they have some political power within their element. However, I don't see enough Americans identifing with their message for them to ever aquire significant power. Maybe I give the people too much credit.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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