Apple unveils Intel-based MacBook notebooks - Page 10

Even when you have evidence to the contrary where the MacBook preorders are outselling the models you believe are crucial to addressing the mid-range market?


Because portable music players are a natural match for a computer company to produce...


Please. The data matched what you wanted to see, you didn't even wonder why the MacBooks didn't show up at all and you didn't bother to check where they were on the lineup and compounded your error by asking folks to go look at Amazon. So I did.

That doesn't make you an idiot but it sure pokes big gaping holes in your assertions and makes you wonder if ALL of your supporting data is as well researched.

And the only reason that those two 15" models you choose (Toshiba and the other one) are outselling the MBP this week when they were not last week is because the MacBooks got released? Because last week when I checked and posted MBPs were #1 and #2.


Because Apple must outsell all other PC manufacturers combined to be successful and having simply the #1, #2, #3, #5, #6, #8, and #9 slots in the top 10 computer sellers on Amazon is not meeting market needs and Apple should be doing more and of course the strategy you propose would capture slots #4, #7 and #10 for clean sweep...

Please.

I'm saying when you get 7 out of 10 on benchmark site you're executing well enough not to have backseat whining in a flipping transition year when the MBPs are practically obsolete the day they launched and MacBook prices will drift down naturally AND still set a new performance level to include "high end" stuff like a camera you can find in every bloody cell phone and a remote with about as much complexity as those that come with $50 boom boxes.

You'll get your $999 laptop. You'll get a 15.4" MacBook Core Duo. Just wait 6 bloody months for the MBPs to go Core 2 Duo.


Well it was an amazingly poor choice to illustrate any point that Apple is missing some major market segment. Would a 15.4" MacBook allow the MacBooks to take the #1-#4 slots? Probably. Would 15.4" MBP sales be hurt? Well lets review...last week they were #1 and #2. This week they fall below the Toshiba (but is now edging out the VAIO again).

The only thing more Apple models can do on Amazon is crowd out other Apple models.

Vinea

Ok in all seriousness here... Why are so many people arguing about specs between Dell and Apple. We all know that there is no reason to buy a Dell after Bootcamp. First of all I don't even need Windows anyway hehe. Lucky me. I think the new MacBooks are great!

Sure I wish we got a better graphics chipset, which would have been the best tasting icing ever on the already glorious cake. However, working at Staples in computer sales has shown me that the MacBook is very competitively priced. Dollar for dollar it is several hundred cheaper than anything that comes close in terms of what we sell. In terms of warranty it's 170 for two years and begins after the one year MFR warranty. Apples 3 year is only 218 in comparison and is so much better.

The only gripe I was going to have with the MacBook was for gaming which honestly the more I think about it, I don't care. Having a dedicated card would have been like having a Hemi in VW Golf. Hell I might even splurge on the black one. It looks phenomenal.

Hopefully, I will be able to get a deal or something on one in late August, right before going to Europe for a couple of weeks. Should be glorious.

Bottom line:

To all of you whiners out there, you sound like Mariah Carey caught in a bear trap. To the rest of you, good earplugs are in order, or in some cases an over-abundance of wax will do the trick.

If you want a Dell, go get one. Just don't complain, it makes you look inadequate, in (ahem) all areas.

This Apple hardware versus PC hardware thing is also largely futile. Apple makes machines that have no PC equivalent on purpose. It's part of the reason they are different and unique. Thet are not trying to match Dell, HP, Acer, whoever, on features and price, but are trying to create a unique product.

No other OEM makes a laptop with the combination of hardware features that Apple has. They chose a set of features that most other laptops don't have on purpose, and that's their selling point.

The MBP 15 has a 1440x900 screen. Dell doesn't seem to sell a 15.4" laptop with that screen resolution, just 1280x800, 1600x1050 or 1920x1200.

The MBP has an integrated camera. Not many other PC laptops have those.

The MBP has a 1" thick form factor. Virtually no other PC laptop of the same screen size has that.

The MBP has a cool aluminum or plastic style. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.

The MBP has 6-pin Firewire. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.

The MBP has a magnetically attached power connector. No other PC laptop has that.

The MBP has an Express Card slot. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.

The MBP has a slot-loading DVD drive. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.

The MBP has a dual-DVI port to drive 30" displays. Virtually no other PC laptop has that.

The MBP has a lot of these Apple unique hardware features, and Apple is counting on them to support their typically higher prices.

Given I too live in a target city I'd say that neither you or I value our children's safety more than our own careers, commute and convienence or our families would be more safely located in central penn (but away from three mile island) or in some remote area of upper state NY.

That would be the "responsible" reaction if you were concerned about terrorism affecting your family. Its a long assed drive though.

So please, the existance of camera in a laptop is a meaningless risk in comparison to choosing to continue to live in NYC or DC. Someday some nutball will get a nuke and they aren't going to use it on farmland.

I've studied the damage patterns and evac routes. Above some size or just unlucky winds my family is well and truly screwed. There's no way we can get out without a lethal total dose barring everything going right. I'm certainly banking on that to happen after a nuclear event.

Playing the concerned parent card and saying someone not living in a city with big assed crosshairs painted on them is out of the loop is a bit funny given the big picture.

Vinea

Not really. And don't start another argument with dubious statements, about which you have no right, and no understanding. Stick to your computer arguments.

This one you should leave alone. Particularly in public.. It's over with. No one was talking to you.

I edited my message prior to seeing this one and my comment stands.

You have no business calling anyone irresponsible or out of the loop regarding any stance on 9/11 or safety if you continue to live in a city you KNOW is likely to get hit again.

As far as no understanding my decision to stay is well informed and I have been briefed multiple times about the potential risks. They are low but not zero and some have fairly catastrophic outcomes that are easily avoided but require sacrifice in terms of convience that my family knowingly chooses not to make.

Its not exactly rocket science either that you actually need someone to tell you that living in either NY or DC is higher risk than most other cities in the US for this kind of thing.

It is also telling that one of the most prolific briefers on this topic has stashed his family in PA and commutes to his office here when he isn't on travel around the country to speak about this issue. He is smart as heck and about as well informed about this subject as you can get. He's also a good speaker and humorous.

I had friends in the Pentagon that day. I have friends that still work there every day. You don't want public arguments about 9/11 don't pull the I live in NY so you don't understand what it means BS in a public forum.

Vinea

You just can't leave things alone. can you?

You are not qualified to say anything on this matter, other that what you might say of your own situation. It doesn't matter to your situation that you had friends in the Pentagon, except to feel sad over what happened there. I had friends in the Towers as well. Neither was a good situation. I feel sympathy for all involved. But you don't live there.

But, since you know nothing about why people still live here in New York, rather than all 8 million abandoning it, don't think that your opinion is of any value. You are just attempting to be smug, and questioning the sincerity of those who chose not to leave, or couldn't, for whatever reason.

There is no sane reason for you to keep pursuing this senseless argument of yours. If you feel you must, contact me personally.

If my word still carries any weight here at all, can I ask what this discussion is doing in Current Hardware?

In that case they would have to completely change their phylosophy.

But you are qualified to state that if you don't live in a target city you are out of the meaningful loop? Please. if you don't want to discuss something the simplest solution is to not discuss it in the first place. Not get all huffy when someone disagrees with you after you're the one that brings it up.

And who the heck are you to judge what I am or am not qualified to say anything about? You have no clue what I might or might not know.

I certainly don't claim that you aren't qualified but I will comment on your decisions though if you bring up the topic is such as asinine way.


I don't live where? It is true I don't live IN the Pentagon. It is not true I do not live near a high profile target with a three letter name in the DC area.

Even if I didn't it DOESN'T MATTER where you live to voice an opinion.

Has it occured to you that its getting on other people's nerves when residents of either DC or NY claim some special status because of 9/11? We got hit, it should have been no bloody surprise given where we live. We will likely get hit again.


No, I'm saying that you have nothing to be condescending about to anyone regarding 9/11 and safety. There are many good reasons to live in NYC but reducing the risk of terrorism impacting the safety of your family isn't one of them.


Nope. I'm done with this topic unless you decide it is necessary to be discuss it again.

Vinea

What happened to the discussion about the MacBooks?



About the iSight: I said this once before a long time ago on a very different thread, but I just don't see corporate spies holding MacBooks up to take photos of trade secrets (it would be pretty awkard and obvious), or positioned to catch a secret meeting. Cell phones are much better for this, and if they take away your cell phone, great cams probably already exist in pens, buttons, you know, the usual places.

Just maybe you're wrong.


Apple ARE Mid-range. Just what is the MacBook or Mini or even iMac if not Mid-Range?



I'm not sure Steve even uses 'what people want' criteria. At one point he was quoted saying something like you should never give people what they want because by the time you ship it they want something else. They've obviously got no way of addressing 70% of the market since that would imply 70% of the market want something other than Windows. You're on cloud cuckoo land if you thing they can do 70%.



Obviously that is complete baloney. See iPod, See Vodafone, See Psion, See MacDonalds. Entrepreneurs create markets from scratch all the time.


It'll only happen if they offer machines with Windows on. Most of the mid range is sold into business and they mostly only want Windows.



Not really. There's a gazillion different laptop brands so the likelihood of an Apple outselling a Sony or a Tosh is quite high. Sure, outselling all the other brands put together is unlikely.

That's funny!

I'll point you at the Mac Mini, the iMac, AirPort and the iPod.

Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

It's like banging my head against a brick wall.

I never, ever said that the Amazon list was evidence of PC laptops outselling Mac laptops.

I was using the Amazon list as an indication of what PC (i.e. non-mac) users buy, and therefore what the market as a whole, buy. Perhaps the PC side of the list is skewed just as the Mac side is, I don't know.

Apple has had a prominent position in Amazon's best-seller list for at least two years now. This prominence is obviously not a reflection of the market as a whole. We know that. Apple's share of the laptop market is about 6% in the US. Obviously, there are no Dells in that list, as you can only buy direct from them. Also, there aren't many HPs, presumably because they are mostly bought direct from them or in bricks-and-mortar stores.

What I have done is assume that if lots of people are buying 15.4" and 14.1" widescreen Celeron-M laptops at Amazon, that is going on in the market as a whole.

Another misinterpretaion. I meant that Apple do not appear to currently be trying to forge new markets. The iPod was launched several years ago, and the portable mp3 market already existed when Apple launched the iPod.

Airport was also launched many years ago.

I would not describe the Mac Mini or the iMac as forging new markets. They are used as conventional PCs. Some Mac Minis are used as HTPCs, but that market already existed before the Mac Mini was launched.

I'm glad thet the 17 in compares nicely to the Dell. I illustrate the comparison on the 15 in to suggest that Apple can and should lower the price of that model. I've no intention of running out and buying a Dell laptop.

Which is why you gleefully pointed out that the Toshiba was the #1 laptop seller...

Vinea

You are demonstrating an awesome lack of basic reading, comprehension and logical reasoning skills. Please, go back and re-read my posts.

You are suggesting that Amazon's best-seller list implies that Apple's laptops outsell PC laptops. We all know that that isn't actually the case in the market as a whole. Amazon's list is skewed heavily towards Apple because of the great deals they have on them, and, in the case of the MacBook, the considerable pent-up demand in the Mac community for this model.

Apple makes laptops? I thought they were notebooks?

Jobs is known for being secretive, even misleading or flat out lying about what apple does internally or has planned for the future. I wouldn't make any assumptions about market research based on one statement made years ago.

If the list is skewed, why use it as an example of anything? Not to mention that there are far more laptops in higher price ranges on the list than lower ones.

And I'd definitely consider $1099 to be a mid-range price, apple is certainly addressing that segment of the market. I'd consider anything under a grand to be low end. But really, that's just semantics.


A celeron M would require a different mobo, so it's not practical for Apple.


I think it's useless to use a list that you admit is skewed. If we know the mac sales aren't a good indication, it makes zero sense to assume that the PC numbers are.


You forgot the video ipod, and video sales at the itunes store, those are all in the last year and very much current.

Though not a market per se, iWeb is a new addition that will help get the general user in to buy iLife and maybe the computer needed to run it.

A couple of reviews of the MP are popping up, all pretty favorable, especially saying that you get the best of both worlds: Mac OS and Windoze. So, this is a new market: a machine that can run MAc OS and Windows, natively. No other maker can do that.

Sorry, but you're nucking futs if you believe that.

They're all nascent, small ideas that Apple have grabbed by the bollocks and ran with in the way only Apple really do. And that's why we like them. Not that they do cheap-ass half hearted beige/black econo-boxes like Dell.

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that, as an undereducated American, I love British English.

Apologies if it'a already been posted, I hadn't noticed.

Apparently the service manual for the MacBook shows that a tech is supposed to slobber on thermal paste as if it were a condiment:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=295925

Right, it is logical to assume that had you known that the macbook was #1, #2, and #3 on the laptop list that you would have choosen the Amazon list as your example rather than some other source. I re-read your post. You clearly call out that the Toshiba is #1 and the Acer #4, and the argument would have been less compelling if they were #4 and #8.


I am suggesting nothing of the sort. I'm suggesting that Amazon is a poor choice to support any argument that Apple is not addressing a large segment of the market given its prominence on that list.

#1 prior to the introduction of the macbooks the 15.4" MBPs outsold the Toshiba and VAIO. Therefore the $1999 price did not seem to deter folks seeking a 15.4" laptop to select Apple even with a $1000 price difference.

#2 with the macbook the folks that purchase $1000 computers out purchased the less expensive 15.4" models despite the same price. Therefore screen size does not seem to deter folks.

#3 In no way can you show using Amazon numbers, which you claim are skewed anyway, indicates that 15.4" widescreen Celeron-Ms represents any sort of PC sweet spot given as you point out Dell isn't on that list and I'm bleeding sure that the VAIO model currently sitting near the top isn't a market leader in terms of volume.

Therefore no matter how you cut it trying to use Amazon numbers to show that Apple is underserving the PC market by not offering a $999 15.4" WS Celeron-M MacBook is flawed...especially since there are $1K 15.4" WS Core Duo's on the market like the Acer Aspire.

Now the argument that they should offer a $1099 15.4" Core Duo MacBook has other issues. Like margins which you state you want to keep high and cannibalizing MBP sales that have aready seen an impact. An issue you steadfastly ignore.

Even a $1699 15.4 is problematic as you are now $700 above the $1K Acer and only $300 below the bottom end MBP which you might as well write off. Congrats you have now cannibalized your $1999 laptops sales for $1699 laptop sales and probably gained zero share against the Acer.

Vinea

Hear hear.
You got it right

Soeren

Good post.

I wish I'd left the numbers out. Pointing people at the list was more so that they could see that almost half (9 out of 20) of the best-selling laptops have Celeron-M class processors and 15.4" screens.

Perhaps using Amazon was a dumb idea. The only thing is, I don't know of anywhere else that sells a lot of laptops from different manufacturers and provides a list of best sellers. Do you?

Having thought about it, the 15.4" screen thing is less important, because they all have the same resolution as the 13" screen anyway, and just serve to make the laptop bulkier and heavier. There may be some people who think the pixel density on the 13" is too high, so there may be some point in offering it as a BTO option.

More significantly, is the Celeron-M, which indicates people are happy to sacrifice some power in order to save money. OS X would run quite happily on a Celeron-M 4xx. It is exactly the same as the Core Solo processor, but with 1 MB cache instead of 2 MB, 533 MHz bus instead of 667, and marginally less sophisticated power management. It is pin-for-pin compatible with the Core Duo (which can be observed from the Core Duo spec. sheet and Celeron 4xx spec. sheet), and therefore does not require a motherboard re-design from Apple.

[now to something completely different]

I think an important aspect is that even is we accept that as a given the problem is that you still need to show that you can grow share and not just cannibalize sales from more expensive Macs.

You have to show that a $899 (or whatever) Celeron-M laptop from Apple without iSight, remote, reliable 1080p playback is compelling enough for switchers in large enough numbers to offset the cannibalization of sales within the current Mac buyers. You'd also want to show that the $899 laptop maintains not just magins but total revenue because if you don't grow unit sales the margins may remain fine but you've still reduced total profit.

I don't think you can show that given the lack of data. It would require internal numbers that don't appear to the public and require relatively accruate prediction in what makes switchers switch.

Personally, with equally zero data, I feel the style, branding and high-end features of the Apple line makes it more compelling than price and variety. There are many many PC manufacturers that compete on price and variety.

The current Apple line is big enough to fit either mid range price ($1K) or various screen sizes (except ultra-portables) even if you can't get the exact mix you might desire (lower price, bigger screen, smaller processor).

Vinea

Indeed. I don't think there is any reliable way to accurately predict this. It is just my strongly held opinion that it would not significantly cannibalise sales of more capable machines.

That's the thing though, if a cheaper, lower-featured notebook would cannibalize faster, more featured product, it might be because of price, but also because those features aren't all that necessary. Front Row + remote, Photo Booth + iSight, Bluetooth and dual core aren't necessarily things I really care about. Making them standard makes the feature available inexpensively for people that need it, but at the expense of people that wouldn't necessarily use them, other than maybe for a few minutes worth of novelty.

The iSight is even undesirable for those that work with draconian types of organizations.

i feel the same way. bad design makes baby jesus cry.

to some people, a pleasing design, a preferred color make a big difference.

you know that song... "if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad."

Don't believe everything you see.
I've had Intel Extreme2 and GMA 900/950 graphics equipped PCs for a while now and most 3D games play on them. You may not be able to run at the highest resolution or detail level, but if you're an occasional gamer, you don't have to. I've played GTA 3/4, Far Cry, UT4, BF, and a few others I don't remember.
As far as speed goes, Intel GMA chips are significantly faster than Radeon 7500, 8500, and 9200 series if paired with a fast CPU (there is no T&L on the chip, so CPU has to take care of that).

If you're an occasional gamer, as you say, Intel Integrated graphics are ok.

I've got no clue, give me a hint if you don't mind.

You could have said the same thing about firewire, etc. The remote, iSight, and BT are not overly expensive items. Dual core is useful to produce the level of performance desired.

If you eliminate all of these features is there a point in picking an intel notebook over a G4? Why not just whine about Apple's margins and be done with it?

You'd also have to show what that's to Apple's benefit to cannibalize sales of higher priced machines.

Vinea

I saw the new MacBooks today at the Chicago Apple Store. Really cool. Very fast. I don't like the glossy screens much, but I installed XBench on one of the BlackBooks there to see just how fast these babies are. It is over twice as fast as my PB 15" 1.67 AlBook, even with two GB Ram. Admittedly the Apple Store BlackBook had 1GB of ram in it, which I asked about and the assistant didn't agree with (policy wise - it was clear in the Apple menu).

Still, this absolutely crushes the old Powerbooks. I'm getting one of either the next Rev MacBookPro's, or maybe even the one after that...those are going to really kick ass. By then my PB will be wheezing away anyway...right now it's fine for what I need it for (email, surfing etc.)

Yay my Macbook just came today. My first impression, HEAVY! The Macbook is for my wife so I don't mind to much but I really believe Apple is behind technologically in the weight area. I tied to find a 13.3 inch notebook that was heavier but couldn't, the Macbook was the heaviest by at least a pound in every instance. I really hope Apple comes out with a smaller, lighter model. Well thank god OSX works on my Thinkpad X60.

Let's see these lighter PC laptops, please. Do they have Intel Core Duo and at least 55 WHr battery?

I hope you're not trying to imply that your ThinkPad X60 with your pirated OS X in any way compares to a MacBook. If we leave the ridiculously bad design aside, we still have to take into account that it doesn't have widescreen, has 23.2% less screen estate, has no optical drive (which, btw, significantly adds to the weight, of course) nor Bluetooth, comes with a slightly slower CPU and still costs $400 more.