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Apple releases Xcode 2.3

post #1 of 40
5/24/06 at 1:40am
Thread Starter 
http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/05/23/xcode/index.php

In relation to the recent concerns of Adobe with Xcode and the use of it for the next Universal CS, how important is this update ?
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post #2 of 40
5/24/06 at 11:16am
Quote:
efficient utilization of disk space

Hah, maybe they should start with the devkit itself. Yet another 900+MB for an update.

That's not my biggest problem. The documentation for Xcode has more than 100,000 files in it. My whole filesystem has 400,000 files or so. Why don't they compile and compress it into say a chm format?

I don't suppose they could make the updates smaller because of all the file changes but the updates never seem to get any better.

Compared to Codewarrior, Xcode is so slow. When I would hit compile in Codewarrior, it used to fly through the steps. I didn't like Codewarrior all that much because of having to buy it and the files included conflicted with system files but I sure miss the performance. I seem to say that a lot about OS X these days.
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post #3 of 40
5/24/06 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
Hah, maybe they should start with the devkit itself. Yet another 900+MB for an update.

That's not my biggest problem. The documentation for Xcode has more than 100,000 files in it. My whole filesystem has 400,000 files or so. Why don't they compile and compress it into say a chm format?

I don't suppose they could make the updates smaller because of all the file changes but the updates never seem to get any better.

Compared to Codewarrior, Xcode is so slow. When I would hit compile in Codewarrior, it used to fly through the steps. I didn't like Codewarrior all that much because of having to buy it and the files included conflicted with system files but I sure miss the performance. I seem to say that a lot about OS X these days.

A lot of that is GCC itself. Xcode does the best it can, but the GCC just isn't very good. I wish the Intel compilers supported Objective-C.
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post #4 of 40
5/24/06 at 12:32pm
Thread Starter 
So this update is not going to help Adobe much. We (they) have to wait for Xcode 3.0 or something ...
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post #5 of 40
5/24/06 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally posted by gregmightdothat
A lot of that is GCC itself. Xcode does the best it can, but the GCC just isn't very good. I wish the Intel compilers supported Objective-C.

GCC is a cross-platform tool, therefore it must be as big as, or close to being this big, on every platform it supports, right? But it ain't. So stop blaming GCC for problems Apple has wrt to making things small. This is not isolated to GCC, this is just the way they operate. The other day I installed an update to iPhoto which weighed at around 56MB. I can install at least 3 different photo management programs and still not be able to approach that size.

Maybe they should look into efficient programming. And no, the Intel compilers don't deliver that.
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post #6 of 40
5/24/06 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
GCC is a cross-platform tool, therefore it must be as big as, or close to being this big, on every platform it supports, right? But it ain't. So stop blaming GCC for problems Apple has wrt to making things small. This is not isolated to GCC, this is just the way they operate. The other day I installed an update to iPhoto which weighed at around 56MB. I can install at least 3 different photo management programs and still not be able to approach that size.

Maybe they should look into efficient programming. And no, the Intel compilers don't deliver that.

Did I say the GCC was big? No, I said it was slow. (edit: actually, I realize I was completely unclear. Sorry.)

iPhoto is large because it comes loaded with tacky templates.
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post #7 of 40
5/24/06 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by BigBlue
So this update is not going to help Adobe much. We (they) have to wait for Xcode 3.0 or something ...

Adobe isn't waiting for a magical panacea. They just held off Xcode previously because it's incredibly buggy and they're delaying it now because the Intel switch happened when they were already knee-deep working on CS 3.0 (although I imagine that there's lots of political reasons as well.)
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post #8 of 40
5/25/06 at 6:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by gregmightdothat
Adobe isn't waiting for a magical panacea. They just held off Xcode previously because it's incredibly buggy and they're delaying it now because the Intel switch happened when they were already knee-deep working on CS 3.0 (although I imagine that there's lots of political reasons as well.)

So if Xcode is - according to Adobe - unusable in it's present state, and Codewarrior don't do Universal, how on earth are they gonna finish CS3 Universal ? And what are they all doing in the meantime (= now) ?
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post #9 of 40
5/25/06 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally posted by BigBlue
So if Xcode is - according to Adobe - unusable in it's present state, and Codewarrior don't do Universal, how on earth are they gonna finish CS3 Universal ? And what are they all doing in the meantime (= now) ?

It's not unusable. It's just a pain to use. I use it all the time and it works fine enough. None of the bugs are fatal, they're just annoying. Adobe will convert to Xcode, they're probably already done converting the CS3 branch, but it wasn't worth the effort earlier.

For the record, there's really only three bugs I run into all the time. First, when there's an error in your code, a little window comes up with the details and brings you to a place where you can edit it. Sometimes this doesn't update as you type, which is rather distressing and potentially dangerous. Another is that sometimes every single character you type beeps until you start a new line. Most annoying though is that there's a shortcut menu for functions in a source file that takes forever to populate. I can't tell you how many cumulative hours I've wasted waiting for this thing.
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post #10 of 40
5/25/06 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
GCC is a cross-platform tool, therefore it must be as big as, or close to being this big, on every platform it supports, right? But it ain't. So stop blaming GCC for problems Apple has wrt to making things small. This is not isolated to GCC, this is just the way they operate. The other day I installed an update to iPhoto which weighed at around 56MB. I can install at least 3 different photo management programs and still not be able to approach that size.

Maybe they should look into efficient programming. And no, the Intel compilers don't deliver that.

I think Apple's problem is the way it handles localizations...a little update to a .nib file requires a download of all the localizations (which are ridiculously huge for some reason).
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post #11 of 40
5/26/06 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I think Apple's problem is the way it handles localizations...a little update to a .nib file requires a download of all the localizations (which are ridiculously huge for some reason).

Funny you should mention that. I was looking at a way of saving some space on my hard drive recently and I remembered something called delocalizer. There's also a program called monolingual ( http://monolingual.sourceforge.net/ ) that does the same thing.

I didn't expect it to clean up 1.2GB of space and remove over 112,000 files. It moved so many files to trash that the Finder hung up when I tried to open the trash.

So that's 112,000 in localizations and about 100,000 in Apple's developer docs. My total HD is 400,000 so half of all the files are there unnecessarily.

I expect this kind of bloat from Microsoft but Apple needs to make things a bit leaner. A Leopard should definitely be leaner than a big fat Tiger.

Notes: if you want to use monolingual, make sure you look at the preferences first to make sure you are moving the right files. It says in the FAQ to not include Adobe stuff (something about self-healing) but my CS had no problem.
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post #12 of 40
5/26/06 at 4:50pm
I think the Macs should come preinstalled with English localizations only and during the Setup Assistant if the user chooses another language, a message will pop up in that language for the user to insert an included CD of localizations, which when inserted will install the extra files.
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post #13 of 40
5/29/06 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
I think the Macs should come preinstalled with English localizations only and during the Setup Assistant if the user chooses another language, a message will pop up in that language for the user to insert an included CD of localizations, which when inserted will install the extra files.

Yet another dumb statement by Placebo. How are people that don't understand english going to figure how to set the language if everything is localized in English at start?
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post #14 of 40
5/29/06 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Yet another dumb statement by Placebo. How are people that don't understand english going to figure how to set the language if everything is localized in English at start?

The same way they understand what it means when they're told:

"Please choose your language below"

when they first power up their computer.
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post #15 of 40
5/29/06 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
The same way they understand what it means when they're told:

"Please choose your language below"

when they first power up their computer.

When most people first power up their computer, the OS is in their native language. But I suppose you've never had to buy outside your english-speaking country.
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post #16 of 40
5/29/06 at 10:40pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
When most people first power up their computer, the OS is in their native language. But I suppose you've never had to buy outside your english-speaking country.

If Apple is able to localize the machines according to each specific country, why not just provide the language of the country by itself and nothing else?

Or do I get my native language (say it's... Spanish) when I buy the computer from a store in London?
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post #17 of 40
5/30/06 at 2:57am
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
When most people first power up their computer, the OS is in their native language. But I suppose you've never had to buy outside your english-speaking country.

Eh, what? Every Mac that I've had through my hands (and that's a lot) starts with a screen containing 15 list items saying 'Use XX for the main language' in the 15 languages.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #18 of 40
5/30/06 at 3:01am
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
If Apple is able to localize the machines according to each specific country, why not just provide the language of the country by itself and nothing else?

They don't. Every Mac leaving the manufacturer has the exact same software on the hard drive.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #19 of 40
5/30/06 at 3:52am
It's probably easier for developers and sales people that Apple include all localizations. After all, they are pretty easy to remove if you need to. It would be nice if Apple provided a built-in way to remove them though.

Does anyone know how large numbers of files affects a file system? I imagine that cutting down the number of files by a few hundred thousand must be doing some good. It'll make Spotlight indexing a lot faster on a rebuild anyway.

Concerning the devkit, I just put some of the documentation on a compressed dmg and it saved about 500-600MB of space as well as cut down the number of files by 50,000 or so.

I think Apple needs to use a better compiler than gcc. I read somewhere they compile the OS with it too. Fom this article:

http://www.ctoforaday.com/archives/000019.html

it seems you can get far better binaries (50%+ speed improvement) with other compilers. Maybe this is one reason why OS X is slower compared to Windows on the same machine.

Hopefully Apple will offer a choice between gcc and the Intel compilers. Either that or the gcc crew will get their ass in gear and deliver us some auto-vectorization that actually works. I think what gives Intel compilers the edge is support of both auto-vectorization and openMP.
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post #20 of 40
5/30/06 at 8:04am
*shrug* There's always been an option to choose the language and keyboard other than the country default.

I've seen new Macs ship with french as default out-of-the-box. I'm sorry if you've never had that pleasurable experience.

As for Gene's question...that *is* a good question...I have no clue why Apple insists on shipping with all localizations. Apple should at least give the option to clean up localizations that are, for certain, not going to be used.
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post #21 of 40
5/30/06 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
They don't. Every Mac leaving the manufacturer has the exact same software on the hard drive.

Of course they don't. That was my whole point. They have an image that they install on every computer they send out. It could be a 60 GiB MacBook; it'll still get the same software as the others (my Core Duo mini came with 15 GiB of installed crap. 15 GiB! - half of which was drivers for printers I'll never use, a lot of it languages I'll never use and some of it games I'll never use.)

There must be a better way of doing this.
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post #22 of 40
5/30/06 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Of course they don't. That was my whole point.

Negative...your point would still be wrong.
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post #23 of 40
5/30/06 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Negative...your point would still be wrong.

No it wouldn't. Provide a reason why it's wrong.
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post #24 of 40
5/30/06 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
They have an image that they install on every computer they send out. It could be a 60 GiB MacBook; it'll still get the same software as the others (my Core Duo mini came with 15 GiB of installed crap. 15 GiB! - half of which was drivers for printers I'll never use, a lot of it languages I'll never use and some of it games I'll never use.)

There must be a better way of doing this.

Well, I normally wipe the HD and install OS X with the bare minimum...of course, that still doesn't take care of the localization problems.
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post #25 of 40
5/30/06 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
No it wouldn't. Provide a reason why it's wrong.

I already have.

Step outside your little bubble for two seconds and go to, say, Spain's or France's online Apple Store and configure a computer...you get a choice of spanish or international english in the first case and french or international english for the second case.

Like I said, I've power on computers that defaulted to french.
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post #26 of 40
5/31/06 at 2:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
Funny you should mention that. I was looking at a way of saving some space on my hard drive recently and I remembered something called delocalizer. There's also a program called monolingual ( http://monolingual.sourceforge.net/ ) that does the same thing.

I didn't expect it to clean up 1.2GB of space and remove over 112,000 files. It moved so many files to trash that the Finder hung up when I tried to open the trash.

So that's 112,000 in localizations and about 100,000 in Apple's developer docs. My total HD is 400,000 so half of all the files are there unnecessarily.

I expect this kind of bloat from Microsoft but Apple needs to make things a bit leaner. A Leopard should definitely be leaner than a big fat Tiger.

Notes: if you want to use monolingual, make sure you look at the preferences first to make sure you are moving the right files. It says in the FAQ to not include Adobe stuff (something about self-healing) but my CS had no problem.

Well, I cleaned my computer up with Monolingual, and it deleted +200.000 files (!) for a 2.5 Gig worth of HD space. Wow !
Everything worked fine afterwards.
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post #27 of 40
5/31/06 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Step outside your little bubble for two seconds and go to, say, Spain's or France's online Apple Store and configure a computer...you get a choice of spanish or international english in the first case and french or international english for the second case.

Those are for the keyboard and the printed material.

Just yesterday I set up two brand new Macs (a MacBook and a MacBook Pro) and they started up just as I said in an earlier post.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #28 of 40
5/31/06 at 5:28am
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Of course they don't. That was my whole point.

And I agree - I was just trying to prove your point.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #29 of 40
5/31/06 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Yet another dumb statement by Placebo. How are people that don't understand english going to figure how to set the language if everything is localized in English at start?

Don't be angry at yourself, you just read my post too quickly. It was an easy mistake.

I said:
"and during the Setup Assistant if the user chooses another language, a message will pop up in that language"


In essence, the same way it's currently done, except instead of having all of those languages for every single application installed from the get-go and wasting gigabytes of hard drive space, they would be installed from an included DVD/CD following the user's language choice.
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post #30 of 40
5/31/06 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Those are for the keyboard and the printed material.

Just yesterday I set up two brand new Macs (a MacBook and a MacBook Pro) and they started up just as I said in an earlier post.

No, sorry...you're wrong. I've set up brand new Macs with OS X defaulting to french.
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post #31 of 40
5/31/06 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Don't be angry at yourself, you just read my post too quickly. It was an easy mistake.

I said:
"and during the Setup Assistant if the user chooses another language, a message will pop up in that language"


In essence, the same way it's currently done, except instead of having all of those languages for every single application installed from the get-go and wasting gigabytes of hard drive space, they would be installed from an included DVD/CD following the user's language choice.

You don't get the language option when your Mac is already localized. Although JLL seems to insist the option exists on Mac ordered from the Apple Store...I've never seen it. So how would one get the language option if the Mac is localized in english from the start and the user doesn't understand english?
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post #32 of 40
5/31/06 at 2:04pm
What about "choose your language" at the beginning of the Setup Assistant?
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post #33 of 40
5/31/06 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
What about "choose your language" at the beginning of the Setup Assistant?

From what I've seen, that option is only available when installing OS X from a CD/DVD onto a freshly formated HD.
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post #34 of 40
5/31/06 at 2:33pm
Huh! I can't say I knew that, last time I booted up a factory-new Mac was in the late parts of the 10.2 days, so I assumed that the options in the Tiger installer were the same for a newly-booted Mac.
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post #35 of 40
5/31/06 at 2:51pm
I, too, have only ever seen that option when running installer, not when using Setup Assistant.
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post #36 of 40
6/1/06 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
From what I've seen, that option is only available when installing OS X from a CD/DVD onto a freshly formated HD.

Correct. Not to mention when these system images are blasted to the HDD they are automated. They don't install based upon localization orders unless it is a very large order.
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post #37 of 40
6/2/06 at 1:42am
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
No, sorry...you're wrong. I've set up brand new Macs with OS X defaulting to french.

When?

I've bought 48 Macs this year alone, and all start with that 'Choose language' screen I've stated earlier when the setup assistant starts.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #38 of 40
6/2/06 at 1:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Correct. Not to mention when these system images are blasted to the HDD they are automated. They don't install based upon localization orders unless it is a very large order.

Which means that you disagrees with kim kap sol
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #39 of 40
6/2/06 at 1:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
I, too, have only ever seen that option when running installer, not when using Setup Assistant.

What happens when you start a new Mac the first time? Aren't you greeted by the setup assistant?
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #40 of 40
6/2/06 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
What happens when you start a new Mac the first time? Aren't you greeted by the setup assistant?

Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
When?
I've bought 48 Macs this year alone, and all start with that 'Choose language' screen I've stated earlier when the setup assistant starts.

I think you are correct.
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