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To Spank or not to Spank - Page 3

post #81 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
You realize that you just openly admitted to having a broken sarcasm detector . . .

You realize that your sarcasm is not that funny and plain unintelligent.
post #82 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by gregmightdothat
You realize that your sarcasm is not that funny and plain unintelligent.

No I didn't realize it was "plain unintelligent." Damn.
post #83 of 113
I'm just hoping Ann Coulter doesn't take the 'cigarette burn' approach in her rhetoric ---oh, wait.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #84 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
I don't see any contradiction so far.

A partner participates in a relationship in which each member has equal status.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Anyway, actually i consider parents and their children
as "partners" in the sense that parents and their children have an informal, say, (hidden) family contract, to achieve a common goal.

Now I see where your confusion lies.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
parents and their children try to achieve the goals as "partners".

post #85 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Parents are responsible
for the Goals, but parents and their children try to achieve the
goals as "partners".

Um, what age children are we talking about? I would imagine the children likely to be spanked (and not fight back, mind you) would be neither willing nor able to have such a thing as "goals".
post #86 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
skatman, the research does not support what you posted... [/B]

Please post a reference to a peer reviewed, indexed, and archived primary publication and we can argue about that.

Quote:
You are "educating" your child by inflicting pain. Doesn't that sound sinister to you?

And... so what?
post #87 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by skatman
Please post a reference to a peer reviewed, indexed, and archived primary publication and we can argue about that.

I already did - look on the previous page. It was the article I was referring to in my response to you.
post #88 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by npynenberg
Hey! I'm talking about children here.. clean up your minds.

As a father of a two year old I am often faced with the question of whether to spank our child or not. Most of the time we don't... but I'll admit there have been a few times when a swat on the butt made all the difference.

In addition, if my son does something that could be very dangerous.. for example playing with an electrical cord, I have slapped his hand.

I think the key is... don't ever do it when you are angry.

What are your thoughts. Please include whether you are a parent or not in your answer.... I've found that many opinions I have had have changed now that I am a parent.

Chalk me up for the spank side.
Hard-Core.
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Hard-Core.
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post #89 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by untsig
im not a parent but i have plenty of experience on this subject

let me tell you one thing, i love my father with all my heart and respect the hell out of him. but because i grew up my entire life being flat out AFRAID of my dad and the sound of his big belt buckle, i cant hardly show my dad how i feel about him.

i think my dad finally realized that he had been the father that he grew up hating and still feels bad about it.

in my mind i've forgiven my dad but i have yet to be able to tell him that.

voilence in youth is NOT GOOD.

Right with you so far. My relationship with my father has never recovered.

Quote:
that being said, i think SPANKING is a must. BUT there is a huge difference bewteen SPANKING and BEATING your child.

I my opinion, you don't add up now. I have a two and half year old, and have never had to use force with him. I use a very soft and kind voice with him most of the time, and so my deep, serious voice stops him in his tracks.

There is no huge difference here at all. Physically striking is just that, no matter what you call it.
"I'm learning how to meditate, so far so good."
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker
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"I'm learning how to meditate, so far so good."
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker
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post #90 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by pena2050
I have a 2 year old baby. I don't spank him and I have no desire to.

I haven't had any problems controlling his behavior. When you give children options that are acceptable to you and them, there is no need to hit.

If he wants to eat ice cream on the sofa and I don't want him to, I tell him I don't want him to do that because he will spill, and I take him back to the table. If he insists I give him a choice, 'you can climb on the sofa or you can eat your ice cream at the table.' He chooses what he wants to do. This is a simple example, but it works for everything.

I can't really imagine an instance where I would want to hit or threaten him.

And children who are abused and even spanked are more antisocial, they are more likely to be depressed, less successful in school, and more likely to hit or abuse their parents when they are elderly. But if they do, it won't mean they don't love you, right?

This is right on. See my post above. For those of you arguing that kids need it, or that its not abuse, I fear you may find out your actions have unintended results.
"I'm learning how to meditate, so far so good."
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker
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"I'm learning how to meditate, so far so good."
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker
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post #91 of 113
Not to get to far off base but people, you don't have to be spanked to crumble your relationship with your parents. Verbal assualts are probably far worse IMHO.

And, I am not trying to be a butt here so keep that in mind, but if your relationship with your dad (I can relate) was crapped on by his belt, there was proably an underlying problem that caused this. i.e. he may have been raised like a slave and verbally abused causing him not to show feelings wether or not he whipped you til you couldn't sit. Not trying to say anyone is wrong because they are not, just saying from my experience the spanking part was not the real culprit...
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post #92 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by aplnub
Not to get to far off base but people, you don't have to be spanked to crumble your relationship with your parents. Verbal assualts are probably far worse IMHO.

And, I am not trying to be a butt here so keep that in mind, but if your relationship with your dad (I can relate) was crapped on by his belt, there was proably an underlying problem that caused this. i.e. he may have been raised like a slave and verbally abused causing him not to show feelings wether or not he whipped you til you couldn't sit. Not trying to say anyone is wrong because they are not, just saying from my experience the spanking part was not the real culprit...

Who knows, you may have a point here. I got both.
"I'm learning how to meditate, so far so good."
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker
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"I'm learning how to meditate, so far so good."
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker
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post #93 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Um, what age children are we talking about?

As i said in my first comment, my girl is 8 yr old (well, 2 weeks ahead)

Generally, and i write it on any wall if you don't mind,
spanking is mere losing self control and a visible expression of a
violent character too. And additionally, i can't come up with a
potential mindset, wherein "spanking" does any good, but spawning
Violence. And except of *self satisfaction*.
If you need additional *self satisfaction* than spanking a 3 year
old is good for you. This is my answer to anybody who asks to
spank or not to spank.

(I don't mean you personally, forgive me, if you thought first, chucker).
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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post #94 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by blue2kdave
[B]Right with you so far. My relationship with my father has never recovered.



I my opinion, you don't add up now. I have a two and half year old, and have never had to use force with him. I use a very soft and kind voice with him most of the time, and so my deep, serious voice stops him in his tracks.

There is no huge difference here at all. Physically striking is just that, no matter what you call it.

Same mindset.
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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post #95 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
As i said in my first comment, my girl is 8 yr old (well, 2 weeks ahead)

Generally, and i write it on any wall if you don't mind,
spanking is mere losing self control and a visible expression of a
violent character too. And additionally, i can't come up with a
potential mindset, wherein "spanking" does any good, but spawning
Violence. And except of *self satisfaction*.
If you need additional *self satisfaction* than spanking a 3 year
old is good for you. This is my answer to anybody who asks to
spank or not to spank.

(I don't mean you personally, forgive me, if you thought first, chucker).

Yep, fully agreed (not that I have children yet, but I'm still curious about all this ). I'm still confused over your statement regarding "goals", however. What goals does your daughter have? If you were to ask her, what answer would you expect? Surely it can't be "to have a healthy and working relationship with my parents" or "to have a successful career, as well as a spouse I love, plus children"?

I'd imagine an 8-year old's goals would amount to "to collect all pieces of {random collectible items, e.g. Pokemon}" or "to have lots of cool friends to hang out with", neither of which probably cause much stir with parents to begin with.

So, please clarify what you mean by "goals" that parents and children need to work on together. Thanks!
post #96 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
Generally, and i write it on any wall if you don't mind,
spanking is mere losing self control and a visible expression of a
violent character too.

Hmmm...smells like...hasty generalization.
post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Hmmm...smells like...hasty generalization.

Actually, smells like "personal opinion".
post #98 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I already did - look on the previous page. It was the article I was referring to in my response to you.

I read over the article and, while it maybe correct from mathematical perspective, it has very little application in real life.

Since in both groups (spanked and not spanked) there are cases where aggression and and is not manifested later in life, one can only conclude that spanking is NOT the only factor.

Also, this information is useless unless you're trying to educate enough children at the same time to have a statistically significant group (which is why corporal punishment should never be allowed in schools). In a typical family the number of children falls far below statistically significant sample and so one can not use information gathered using such methods.

Quote:
And additionally, i can't come up with a
potential mindset, wherein "spanking" does any good, but spawning
Violence. And except of *self satisfaction*.

It is unwise to think that just because you "can't come up with a potential mindset", that one can't exist.
I can give you a math problem that you can't solve... does that mean that the math problem is unsolvable?
More likely, it is an indication of a limiation of one's mindset.

The same thing with violence... violence, self-control, and spanking, while can be related, don't always have to be.
There is time for each and a wise person knows when to do what.
post #99 of 113
BTW...wrt to the "violence card"...we should be clear on what "violent" actually means:

1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack.
2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike.
3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense.
4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death.
5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent.

Anyone doing this with their children is abusing them and needs to be reported to the proper authorities.

This should also be distinguished from spanking.
post #100 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
This should also be distinguished from spanking.

It would help if you could specify why you feel that violence is a distinct concept from spanking.
post #101 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
It would help if you could specify why you feel that violence is a distinct concept from spanking.

Well, at least in the way that my wife and I have administered spankings, they are not:

1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack.
2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike.
3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense.
4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death.
post #102 of 113
Let's not get euphemistic about hitting your kids.
post #103 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by skatman
I read over the article and, while it maybe correct from mathematical perspective, it has very little application in real life.

Again, you're simply dismissing all of the research that's been done on this topic. And I mean all - that study was a review of the hundreds of existing studies on spanking. Those studies, which are mostly "real life" studies of how parents interact with their kids, show that spanking gets immediate compliance but has longer-term negative effects and no long-term positive effects (such as "education"). Dismiss the research in favor of your own opinion if you wish - you certainly wouldn't be the first - but recognize that that is what you are doing.
Quote:
Since in both groups (spanked and not spanked) there are cases where aggression and and is not manifested later in life, one can only conclude that spanking is NOT the only factor.

Of course spanking is not the only factor leading to aggression, no one would ever suggest such an absurd thing, and that doesn't mean that spanking has no effect on aggression. Smoking isn't the only factor that leads to lung cancer and heart disease either, but that doesn't mean smoking doesn't cause lung cancer and heart disease.
Quote:
Also, this information is useless unless you're trying to educate enough children at the same time to have a statistically significant group (which is why corporal punishment should never be allowed in schools). In a typical family the number of children falls far below statistically significant sample and so one can not use information gathered using such methods.

The studies examine groups of people using spanking vs not using spanking. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that statistically (and the experts who reviewed the paper and accepted it for publication agree). It still seems to me like you're simply stretching to find some reason to dismiss all the research on this topic.
post #104 of 113
It's definitely a partnership. The parents and children have to be willing for there to be a good relationship between the two. As a kid I always hated adults who enjoyed exerting authority over kids.
post #105 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I'm just hoping Ann Coulter doesn't take the 'cigarette burn' approach in her rhetoric ---oh, wait.

Come now, the right deserves their BRussell's as well.

Love ya BRussell, (why do we still have no kissing smilie?!?)

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #106 of 113
so after all this discussion what cha gona do, after 3 pages isn't it time to fish or cut bait??? we rarely spank we get our point across in many ways but the biggest thing is mom and dad work together, set the rules , set expectations and dole out punishment quickly and BE CONSISTENT. even if one of us disagrees, we discuss it away from the kids then we show unity and in unity is strength
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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post #107 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
so after all this discussion what cha gona do, after 3 pages isn't it time to fish or cut bait??? we rarely spank we get our point across in many ways but the biggest thing is mom and dad work together, set the rules , set expectations and dole out punishment quickly and BE CONSISTENT. even if one of us disagrees, we discuss it away from the kids then we show unity and in unity is strength

very good closing words.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
...
I'd imagine an 8-year old's goals would amount to "to collect all pieces of {random collectible items, e.g. Pokemon}" or "to have lots of cool friends to hang out with", neither of which probably cause much stir with parents to begin with.

So, please clarify what you mean by "goals" that parents and children need to work on together. Thanks! [/B]

Well, rok, dfiler, user23 and a few others said some remarkable
things about the subject, i'd pretty much sign in.
Maybe *Goals* is the wrong word i used in this context.
It sounds pretty *dramatic*, where i meant something
very basic. Maybe "common purpose" would have been
clearer.

Btw, sorry for delay, i was eventually a bit distracted by WC 2006
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
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post #108 of 113
Quote:
Again, you're simply dismissing all of the research that's been done on this topic.

Exactly which part of my post dismisses any research? I can only dismiss the research by challenging the methods or the data analysis, but I'm not.
However, when you review primary literature it is important to understand what questions is being asked and what question is being answered (the two are not always the same). And whether the answers are applicable to the questions at hand.

Quote:
suggest such an absurd thing, and that doesn't mean that spanking has no effect on aggression.

That still doesn't tell me exactly what to do.. spank or notto spank...

Quote:
Smoking isn't the only factor that leads to lung cancer and heart disease either, but that doesn't mean smoking doesn't cause lung cancer and heart disease.

Absence of something is not a proof. Science is only concerned with presence. Show me at least one publication which details direct mechaniwm how smoking cvauses cancer and I'll believe you.

[quote]
The studies examine groups of people using spanking vs not using spanking. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that statistically (and the experts who reviewed the paper and accepted it for publication agree).
[/quote[
I agree. However, you have to realise the limitations of the applicability of these studies. If the number of kids is below suare root of the sample size, you're out of luck... sorry.
I'm a scientist in biotechnology (besides other things) from the side of chmical engineering, so I really know these math things.

Quote:
It still seems to me like you're simply stretching to find some reason to dismiss all the research on this topic.

Because I get asked by journals to review papers and I have to be professional and I have to know this shit!
post #109 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Parents who don't spank their kids are raising brats. Just talking never gets anything accommplished. You have to be physical or you're not going to make your point as a parent.


OK, I appreciate the humor, but I also {sigh} wanted to hear your OPINION. Yes, really. I'll read on.

At 2.5 years, we've all but dispensed with the spanking unless he is in a dangerous situation or is doing something to willfully disobey.

For those of you who say "talk to them" that may work later in life, but the little ones are usually too busy pitching a fit to listen. In those cases, drastic times call for drastic measures (time out crib). Sometimes a spanking is the only thing that gets their attention and focuses them on the problem at hand. In each case we explain why the punishment happened, and remind him of the punishment that's coming the next time he starts down that path. These days, the punishment "two-count" is usually enough to make him listen and think about his actions. Hey, he even helps me count! I say "one" and then I hear "two" from him. He gets the idea.

It's really great to be able to communicate with your child, but sometimes that communication has to be rapid and instinctual on their part. Hence absolutes like "Stop." That's a special word, and if he doesn't listen to it we punish him immediately.

Most of all, I think consistency is important. It pays off.

EDIT: After having read the thread.

BRussell, thanks for sending the other stuff along. Yes, really.

My only real complaint about the citations/research mentioned is that it doesn't present alternatives that are effective. In other words, we know that corporal punishment causes all these bad things, so the recommendation from the child development literature has to be that instead of corporal punishment we do technique X on a regular basis. If corporal punishment is done with other things, then technique X should fit in those situations as well. What's our technique X? What works as well as corporal punishment, and how did they possibly measure something like that consistently?

Also, from a methodology standpoint, you can always point to "corporal punishment" and then measure its "effects" without controlling for everything else that's not as easily categorized, such as bullying, nagging, guilting, other forms of mental abuse. It's hard to target and measure the detrimental/positive effects of other childrearing techniques (or the lack of outcomes/discipline of any kind) because these methods are harder to isolate and describe in a narrow fashion. After all, how many parents will acknowledge guilting their kids in order to get obedience? How many will acknowledge other types of abuse and/or manipulation? How many researchers will identify children who had poor development due to the lack of imposed discipline, whatever the type available?

I haven't read the stuff in a while, but it's just like any other research -- subject to learned interpretation.

Thanks for chiming in.
Never had ONE lesson.
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Never had ONE lesson.
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post #110 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel

There are certainly some kids that benefit from getting spanked. I guess you have to wait and find out, but if your kid is a brat, then you'll do worse for yourself, everyone else, and for the kid if you don't spank. In these cases it is inconsiderate not to spank.

I used some of your keywords to find out if there are examples of those brats in the web.
The result was astonishing. Here are just two examples:

http://static.flickr.com/48/119925532_327d096d1b_o.jpg

http://image53.webshots.com/453/5/73...0oxYHJN_fs.jpg
post #111 of 113
I don't get it.
post #112 of 113
I have a two and a half year old and never felt the need to spank him. We do "time out" but don't use it much anymore because he gives us little cause. Maybe he's an easy kid but he listens to me and I listen to him.

When he has a tantrum and is very upset ... hitting him will only make him more upset. Why not just say, "Stop your crying or I'll give you a reason." How intelligent. Rather than that I try to calm him down which is what I really want anyway. If he pitches a fit in public, which doesn't happen often, we just leave.

When he runs in the street, which he doesn't do, I run after him and yell "STOP". We talked to our son a lot about holding hands in the parking lot. Now it's an important part of his life.

When he throws food, he gets his plate taken away. If he's still hungry he can have one bite at a time. But he doesn't really throw food.

These two year olds are a whole bunch more fucking smarter than anyone gives them credit for. I encourage future parents to be on the look out for when their child first starts to manipulate them. At that age they can be reasoned with. It happens between one and two years old.

It's funny when people say they use spanking as a "last resort". Of course it's the last resort. What would you do next? Lock them in the closet? Beat them?


Enjoy spanking your kids 'cause they sure wont enjoy it.
post #113 of 113
Well I didn't read all the posts, but I thought I'd contribute anyway.

I am in no way a father..or even close to being one since I'm 16. I also don't really intend to have kids. Regardless, it will ALWAYS depend on the type of child you have. My brother and I never really got spanked, if we did something wrong, we were 'growled at' or given a slap on the hand. Now, I'm not a scallywag (honest ), but I can tell you that from some kids I go to school with (not a bad school either), they get ABSOLUTELY NO punishment of any kind. This leads to serious..um...assholes?

I guess what I'm trying to say is:
1. The amount of punishment needed is dependant on the child's personality (i.e. a 'naturally' good kid will likely never need to be HARSHLY punished), and the childs actions (i.e.vandalising the house and breaking windows deserves a harsher punishment than getting 40% on a maths test). I guess thats obvious to most people though.
2. Beating is not acceptable. Ever.
3. Harsh punishments can lead to resentment...no punishment leads to dropkicks.
4. Spanking on the head, etc, is not right.
5. ALL children require discipline, not necessarily punishment, but discipline. Discipline referring to rules and boundaries. This is the most important thing and like someone said before, parents should learn to say "no".
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
- Indian Proverb.
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Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
- Indian Proverb.
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