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The Senate has sold out the People - Page 3

post #81 of 128
Sorry... I posted that on a debate board and should have truncated it for the audience.

You're wrong on the "short Corey" though, I am pissed off that there is no one for me to vote for. I don't like what the R's stand for and I don't like what the D's stand for. I had mostly been voting R (at least nationally) because they claimed to want to grow government slower and spend less money on stupid stuff. The last few years have certainly disproved that theory...

Most people in my position just stop voting. Perhaps I have reached that point.

Corey
post #82 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
That's not the point - the point is to hear about the Federal, State, and Local response from the people who actually experienced it, rather than the media or blogs or whatever.

Did you experience it? Go ahead. I'm listening.
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post #83 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Did you experience it? Go ahead. I'm listening.

No, I didn't, but I've been to NOLA "Post-K" and talked to dozens of people there over the entire social, racial, political, and economic spectrum.

Even lifelong Republicans have nothing but contempt for the Bush administration. They're not exactly happy with anyone State and Local either, but Bush and FEMA are on the top of everyone's $hit list.
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post #84 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
No, I didn't, but I've been to NOLA "Post-K" and talked to dozens of people there over the entire social, racial, political, and economic spectrum.

Even lifelong Republicans have nothing but contempt for the Bush administration. They're not exactly happy with anyone State and Local either, but Bush and FEMA are on the top of everyone's $hit list.

Which lifelong Republicans? How many people did you speak to who met that demographic? The reason they have contempt for the Bush administration is because they have no idea what the Feds role in disaster response is or should be.

I'm going to ask you again: What should have been done differently? I've already said that one thing I think should have been done is the invocation of the Insurrection Act...effectively sending in active duty US military to the area. Martial law should have been declared.

Really...what else should have been done?
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post #85 of 128
You mean active military units like, say, the Louisiana National Guard, with their specialized amphibious vehicles?
... Oh wait... they were in Iraq.

Other things the Feds and FEMA might have done, like, say, listen to the predictions of problems and levee breaches?
... Oh wait... they did hear exactly those warnings - some years before, some weeks before, some days before... and they ignored them.

Things like, say, having actually qualified disaster management folks in charge of FEMA, instead of cronies?
... Oh wait... loyalty apparently matters more than competence to this administration.

Things like, say, using fireman and emergency personnel on site, rather than posing for presidential photo-ops?
... Oh wait...
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post #86 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001


Really...what else should have been done?

I never understood why MREs weren't dropped on day one.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #87 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by curiousuburb
You mean active military units like, say, the Louisiana National Guard, with their specialized amphibious vehicles?
... Oh wait... they were in Iraq.

Other things the Feds and FEMA might have done, like, say, listen to the predictions of problems and levee breaches?
... Oh wait... they did hear exactly those warnings - some years before, some weeks before, some days before... and they ignored them.

Things like, say, having actually qualified disaster management folks in charge of FEMA, instead of cronies?
... Oh wait... loyalty apparently matters more than competence to this administration.

Things like, say, using fireman and emergency personnel on site, rather than posing for presidential photo-ops?
... Oh wait...

1. We had the military resources to deal with the immediate aftermath. Nice try with the tired "the guard was in Iraq" line.

2. What warnings? Everyone knew NO was built below sea level and could be wiped out by a big hurricane. How far should we go back with the blame? FEMA, George Bush et al did not know the levees were going to break. They thought they might be topped.

3. Who exactly is a qualified disaster person? This is just rhetoric on your part. Culture of Corruption! Culture of Corruption!

You want to talk incompetence? Fine. Let's talk about the hysterical Blanco's press conferences. Let's talk about Nagin's CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE in not using city and school busses to get people out. Let's talk about the local police force going AWOL. Let's talk about local officials stopping trucks full of water and ice from getting through. The blame for the Katrina response lies primarily on the shoulders of the state and local officials.
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post #88 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
How far should we go back with the blame?

January 20th, 2001.

post #89 of 128
Interesting:

Quote:
The school buses were owned by a private company, and were not under the control of the city, but rather were used under contract to the school district in Orleans Parish. The city had no ability to coerce or force privately-employed school bus drivers, many of whom were likely evacuating their own families, to evacuate New Orleans residents. Nor were there security personnel or medical professionals previously designated to accompany the buses and their passengers. In addition, there were no shelters set up to receive tens of thousands of bus passengers, nor were there specific plans drawn up as to the direction that these buses should head. And finally, given the capacity of the buses and the number of residents still in the city, only a small percentage of those left behind would have been able to leave on those buses.

Source
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #90 of 128
Ah, SDW, once again displaying his independence from the Bush Administration Which He Has Many Criticisms Of Until Liberals Attack At Which Point He Would Defend the Suspension of the Constitution and Public Hangings.

It's refreshing.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #91 of 128
I think most people here are numb from the whole experience and finger pointing doesn't stir up much emotion anymore. Most peps from Louisiana are very loyal people. We like to stick together and right now we just need some good-ol-fashion good news. (Hell give me some crawfish, hog-head cheese, boudin, and some beer and we be aite). I think the whole event exposed a lot of racial and social problems that must be addressed. I think it exposed a lot of flaws in our emergency response system. I get very angry when I hear somone say "well it wasn't their responsibility". To that I say horse shit! During a national crisis all rules and responsibility go out the door. Drive a damn aircraft carrier up to the Superdome for all I care. I know people that got in flat bottom boats and went down there and saved lives.

No, it wasn't their responsiblity. They did it because it was the right thing to do.

I can say that I have seen local and state officials work to the point of collapse.
post #92 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Ah, SDW, once again displaying his independence from the Bush Administration Which He Has Many Criticisms Of Until Liberals Attack At Which Point He Would Defend the Suspension of the Constitution and Public Hangings.

Nice - but you forgot the part where ANYONE criticizing the Bush Administration is a "liberal."
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post #93 of 128
Quote:
1. We had the military resources to deal with the immediate aftermath. Nice try with the tired "the guard was in Iraq" line.

Wikipedia will tell you this:
Quote:
At the time of the hurricane, approximately 3,000 members of the Guard were serving a tour of duty in Iraq. With total personnel strength of 11,000, this meant that 27% of the Louisiana National Guard was away.

While 27% may not sound like all that much to you, it's important to look at what units comprised that 27%. The 209th PSD, which is New Orleans' Unit, was entirely deployed in Iraq. That's the most senior and experienced officers and soldiers - most with significant local knowledge of the city that would have been extremely helpful in rescue and relief operations, and many lifelong city residents. In their absence, the New Orleans barracks were minimally staffed by custodians and greenhorns.

Personnel support and logistics is their specialty - they are the best-trained Guardsmen available for disaster relief. Their high-water vehicles, generators, etc. were all in Iraq, instead of in New Orleans.

Instead of their hometown boys, New Orleans got green, general-duty Guardsmen from rural Louisiana, Texas and Arkansas, who had most likely never even been in New Orleans before, and had slow and hazardous traveling to do to get there - as opposed to the 209th PSD which would have been in barracks in New Orleans, ready to react immediately. Heck, they might have even been able to help with the pre-storm evacuation, as the locals had their hands full maintaining an orderly exodus of the 90% of the population with transportation and means to leave (the first ever mandatory evacuation of the city went pretty well, all things considered).
Quote:
When members of the Louisiana National Guard left for Iraq in October, they took a lot equipment with them. Dozens of high water vehicles, humvees, refuelers and generators are now abroad, and in the event of a major natural disaster, that could be a problem.

"The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," said Lt. Colonel Pete Schneider with the LA National Guard.(Source - a pre-Katrina report by ABC-25 New Orleans)

The effect of the troops that were in Iraq instead of Louisiana is an issue of much more than just troop availability.

Quote:
2. What warnings? Everyone knew NO was built below sea level and could be wiped out by a big hurricane. How far should we go back with the blame? FEMA, George Bush et al did not know the levees were going to break. They thought they might be topped.

There were indeed multiple predictions that a storm such as this could be exactly what it was - the worst natural disaster to ever hit the US. Based on that very easy to understand concept, FEMA was grossly unprepared for any kind of meaningful relief response.

Speaking of detailed predictions of the storm's aftermath - the NOLA local paper did an extensive series in 2002 on what a hurricane could do to the city: http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/ - here's a couple excerpts:
Quote:
The Army Corps of Engineers says the chance of New Orleans-area levees being topped is remote, but admits the estimate is based on 40-year-old calculations. An independent analysis based on updated data and computer modeling done for The Times-Picayune suggests the risk to some areas, including St. Bernard and St. Charles parishes and eastern New Orleans, may be greater than the corps estimates. Corps officials say the agency is studying the problem with an updated model.

Quote:
Most of the region's original settlements were built on a network of ridges that were relatively safe from flooding. Now they're going under. "Areas near Shell Beach (in St. Bernard Parish) that didn't flood during (Category 5 Hurricane) Camille did flood during (Category 2 Hurricane) Georges," said University of New Orleans geologist Shea Penland. "The ridges had subsided, trees had died because of saltwater intrusion, and the wetlands are converting from a brackish marsh system to a fragmented salt marsh."

That fact is often overlooked by those arguing that the city should never have been built in that location the first place.

As far as no one expecting a breach vs. an overtopping - everyone simply believed the Army Corps of Engineers (you know, the part of the FEDERAL government in charge of building the levees) when they said that the levees were built to (or at least close to) spec.

Turns out that they weren't. Not even close, as sonar testing proved - I-walls that were supposed to be buried 20-30 feet below sea level extended down less than 10.
Quote:
According to the IPET investigation, the 17th Street floodwall failed because of the flawed I-wall structural design. Brandon, who was part of task seven that analyzed the soil stability underneath the floodwalls, said, The I-wall design accounted for about 80 percent of the levees that failed like the ones used near 17th Street and London Avenue.

He proceeded to draw a model of how the I-wall failed. When Katrina hit, the water level rose within the canal and the force pushed the wall outward. This stress caused for the wall to tilt, creating a gap between the wall and the earth on the other side of the wall.

Water rushed into this gap with a force large enough to dislodge the wall, resulting in the breach in certain sections of the floodwall. This breach in the 17th street floodwall accounted for two-thirds of the flooding and half of the economic losses sustained by the city of New Orleans.

There were a few thousand articles a little while back about the Corps taking responsibility for the levee breaches - here's a Google News Search to help you out:
http://news.google.com/news?q=Army+C...nG=Search+News
Quote:
3. Who exactly is a qualified disaster person? This is just rhetoric on your part. Culture of Corruption! Culture of Corruption!

Somebody like Brownie's replacement Paulson, with a 30-year career as a firefighter, paramedic, and emergency disaster response coordinator?

Somebody like Witt, Clinton's FEMA director, with experience as a state emergency manager?

How about an example of what is NOT "a qualified disaster person"? I won't bother to rehash Brownie's resumé and his largely political "qualifications" as they're "common knowledge". The same applies to his predecessor and former boss, Allbaugh (though I'll admit he was better qualified than Brownie).
Quote:
You want to talk incompetence? Fine. Let's talk about the hysterical Blanco's press conferences. Let's talk about Nagin's CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE in not using city and school busses to get people out.

Well, the ever-popular bus myth has already been debunked above. And I could care less about press conferences, except to agree with Nagin when he said enough with the goddamn things.

What do you think the mission/purpose of FEMA is? I've always interpreted it as an agency to coordinate the resources of the Federal government in time of a disaster so severe and/or widespread that responding to it was beyond the scope of State and Local governments (who would likely be affected by the disaster themselves).

And was this such a disaster? YES - the biggest one in our nation's history! And it took days for the Federal government, from Bush on down, to even begin take the response seriously. Trying to defend against or deflect criticism of FEMA and Bush by attempting to shift blame and focus to the overwhelmed State and Local governments is nothing more than another ugly political ploy, which comes across to the LA and NO residents in question as something akin to kicking an injured man when he's down (yeah, they're not too happy about it, nor am I). Like I said, you don't have to be a liberal or a Democrat or a pre-Katrina Bush Hater, to be a Bush Hater in Louisiana right now.

Quote:
Let's talk about the local police force going AWOL.

Let's!
There were 45 officers fired for desertion, and 15 resigned. That's 60 out of a force of 1700. You're broad-brushing the entire force with the actions of less than 4%. I could have told you before the storm that maybe 10% of the NOPD force were scumbags - if that surprises you, you're either very naive, or just pretending to be.

Furthermore, early reports of police looting and desertion numbers were misleading.
Quote:
So far, 21 New Orleans police officers suspected of going AWOL have been exonerated, in most instances, because they were "stranded on rooftops, stranded in homes or could not make it to their posts," Defillo said.

The whole NOPD attack is overblown and mostly nonsense. Most of these guys left their frightened families behind and went days with little or no sleep or food. Hundreds of them are still homeless.

Quote:
Let's talk about local officials stopping trucks full of water and ice from getting through.

Let's!
I read, saw, and heard many, many reports of FEMA officials stopping trucks, but not one of a truck being stopped by "local officials".

Got any links?

Quote:
The blame for the Katrina response lies primarily on the shoulders of the state and local officials.

That is complete and utter crap, delivered from a perspective of smug partisan ignorance.
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post #94 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Ah, SDW, once again displaying his independence from the Bush Administration Which He Has Many Criticisms Of Until Liberals Attack At Which Point He Would Defend the Suspension of the Constitution and Public Hangings.

It's refreshing.

If you have specific criticisms of the federal response, then post them. I'm merely stating what my perception is with regard to who's to blame for the slow response.
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post #95 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Nice - but you forgot the part where ANYONE criticizing the Bush Administration is a "liberal."

I've never said that.
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post #96 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Interesting:



Source

That's bullshit and you know it.
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post #97 of 128
Quote:
While 27% may not sound like all that much to you, it's important to look at what units comprised that 27%. The 209th PSD, which is New Orleans' Unit, was entirely deployed in Iraq. That's the most senior and experienced officers and soldiers - most with significant local knowledge of the city that would have been extremely helpful in rescue and relief operations, and many lifelong city residents. In their absence, the New Orleans barracks were minimally staffed by custodians and greenhorns.

Personnel support and logistics is their specialty - they are the best-trained Guardsmen available for disaster relief. Their high-water vehicles, generators, etc. were all in Iraq, instead of in New Orleans.

Instead of their hometown boys, New Orleans got green, general-duty Guardsmen from rural Louisiana, Texas and Arkansas, who had most likely never even been in New Orleans before, and had slow and hazardous traveling to do to get there - as opposed to the 209th PSD which would have been in barracks in New Orleans, ready to react immediately. Heck, they might have even been able to help with the pre-storm evacuation, as the locals had their hands full maintaining an orderly exodus of the 90% of the population with transportation and means to leave (the first ever mandatory evacuation of the city went pretty well, all things considered).

That doesn't refute my claim. We had the resources to do the job. I've already stated that they should have invoked the Ins. Act to speed the response.

Quote:
There were indeed multiple predictions that a storm such as this could be exactly what it was - the worst natural disaster to ever hit the US. Based on that very easy to understand concept, FEMA was grossly unprepared for any kind of meaningful relief response.

How were they unprepared specifically?

Quote:
As far as no one expecting a breach vs. an overtopping - everyone simply believed the Army Corps of Engineers (you know, the part of the FEDERAL government in charge of building the levees) when they said that the levees were built to (or at least close to) spec.

So wait...you're blaming the Bush administration for the ACOE assumptions? Wow. That is one big leap. You know what...my brother was working in the US Patent Office at the time Katrina struck. It must be his fault too. After all, he is part of the Bush Administration. He has the Christmas card to prove it. If you want to blame the ACOE for assumptions that were too optimistic, then fine. Don't try to pin that on FEMA and Bush himself.

[quote]Somebody like Brownie's replacement Paulson, with a 30-year career as a firefighter, paramedic, and emergency disaster response coordinator?

Somebody like Witt, Clinton's FEMA director, with experience as a state emergency manager?

How about an example of what is NOT "a qualified disaster person"? I won't bother to rehash Brownie's resumé and his largely political "qualifications" as they're "common knowledge". The same applies to his predecessor and former boss, Allbaugh (though I'll admit he was better qualified than Brownie).[/quote

Again, perhaps you'd like to state specifically what FEMA didn't do correctly. And by that, I mean something other than saying "FEMA was totally unprepared."

Quote:
What do you think the mission/purpose of FEMA is? I've always interpreted it as an agency to coordinate the resources of the Federal government in time of a disaster so severe and/or widespread that responding to it was beyond the scope of State and Local governments (who would likely be affected by the disaster themselves).

And was this such a disaster? YES - the biggest one in our nation's history! And it took days for the Federal government, from Bush on down, to even begin take the response seriously. Trying to defend against or deflect criticism of FEMA and Bush by attempting to shift blame and focus to the overwhelmed State and Local governments is nothing more than another ugly political ploy, which comes across to the LA and NO residents in question as something akin to kicking an injured man when he's down (yeah, they're not too happy about it, nor am I). Like I said, you don't have to be a liberal or a Democrat or a pre-Katrina Bush Hater, to be a Bush Hater in Louisiana right now.

FEMA is supposed to coordinate federal resources and liason with State and Local resources. FEMA is not supposed to "take over" the operation. FEMA is not some genie in a bottle that snaps it's fingers and makes utter devastation just go away.

Quote:
Let's!
There were 45 officers fired for desertion, and 15 resigned. That's 60 out of a force of 1700. You're broad-brushing the entire force with the actions of less than 4%. I could have told you before the storm that maybe 10% of the NOPD force were scumbags - if that surprises you, you're either very naive, or just pretending to be.

That's a significant number that deserted or resigned. And those are just the ones that actually had action taken against them. You yourself admit that 10% of the police force were "scumbags." Does that not have something to do with their effectiveness in an emergency? Who was supervising that disaster of PD? Bush?

Quote:
Got any links?

Do you?

Quote:
That is complete and utter crap, delivered from a perspective of smug partisan ignorance.

Of course it is. Of course. But you can make broad condemnations of the Bush Administration and FEMA without providing any real specifics. I see.
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post #98 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
That's bullshit and you know it.

Care to be more specific?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #99 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
That doesn't refute my claim.

Yes it does.

See, I can make sweeping one-sentence claims as well!

Why don't you try actually addressing the multiple specific points I made? Are you going to go into specifics on why having the 209th PSD in Iraq didn't affect the effectiveness of the Federal response?
Quote:
We had the resources to do the job.

That's a pretty general statement! How much more stretched would the NG resources have had to have been before you'd not make that statement that "we had the resources to do the job"?

My point was that the absence of the NG troops that were in Iraq made a difference on many levels - experience of personnel, proximity, and lack of equipment. Care to address those points?
Quote:
I've already stated that they should have invoked the Ins. Act to speed the response.

How would the invocation of the Ins. Act speeded the response? How, specifically, would that have gotten food, water, and ice to the stranded thousands in New Orleans?
Quote:
How were they unprepared specifically?

That's no way to make a point other than a rhetorical one, and you know it. You're asking me to provide specific instances of a lack of something? Well, it appears that ignoring my specific points and asking impossible questions is your tact, so I'll not feign shock. I might be able to post some such near-impossible specifics if I spent all night on Google, or paid for some of the nola.com archives - but I won't work any harder than I already have to make specific points that you'll only respond to by waving your hands and dismissing in a single sentence without discussion or support.

It would be much easier, I'm sure, for you to tell me how - SPECIFICALLY - they WERE prepared, and then proceed to argue that those preparations were adequate. I'll accept direct copy-paste quotes for now, as long as you can back them with links if asked.

So - how were they prepared specifically?

I'll put it like this also - if they were adequately prepared, then why were tens of thousands of people in just two locations in the city of New Orleans hurting for food and water up two 5 days after the storm?

I won't even get into the Mississippi coast, with totally different State and Local governments, and their feelings toward FEMA's response. Maybe in your travels you could stop off there and ask people how many days they waited for food, water and ice, how many times they spent an hour or more getting to the Relief Center on the other side of town only to discover that the day's supply had run out 45 minutes ago, how many weeks or months they waited to get a trailer that sat in a lot with thousands of others the whole time. You really have no idea what you're talking about, and your total lack of specifics and facts in your arguments makes that obvious.

In general, I can say that FEMA:

a. Didn't have nearly enough supplies pre-positioned to help the hundreds of thousands of people in Louisiana and Mississippi without food, water, and shelter for many days after the storm.

b. Didn't get enough supplies into the disaster areas in the weeks immediately following the storm

c. Didn't move tens of thousands of trailers into the disaster area for days, weeks, and months following the storm. They paid for tens of thousands of hotel rooms instead.

d. Presented all manner of obstacles to slow the flow of relief supplies, especially in the critical first seven days following the storm

Address these points, and I'll be happy to provide more.
Quote:
So wait...you're blaming the Bush administration for the ACOE assumptions? Wow. That is one big leap. You know what...my brother was working in the US Patent Office at the time Katrina struck. It must be his fault too. After all, he is part of the Bush Administration. He has the Christmas card to prove it.

Wow. That is one big leap. I didn't know your brother's division of the Bush Administration was responsible for NOLA hurricane protection infrastructure! Please be sure to thank him for me for doing a heck of a job in your next Christmas card.

Shame on you - they could have used all these strawmen you're throwing out now to build a raft and save some lives in NOLA in the first week of September 2005
Quote:
If you want to blame the ACOE for assumptions that were too optimistic, then fine. Don't try to pin that on FEMA and Bush himself.

Ummm... No.

Show me where I ever pointed to the ACOE fuck-ups as the fault of FEMA and Bush. I'm just pointing out that there's a whole lot here that YOU can't pin on the State and Local folks, as you've been trying so hard to do - and if you want to play the blame game, this very significant contributor to the scope of the disaster goes straight to Washington.
Quote:
FEMA is supposed to coordinate federal resources and liason with State and Local resources. FEMA is not supposed to "take over" the operation. FEMA is not some genie in a bottle that snaps it's fingers and makes utter devastation just go away.

Wow, can you believe me and all those silly people in Louisiana and Mississippi that expected FEMA to snap its fingers and make utter devastation just go away! Geez, talk about a strawman - at least try to put up a more realistic one if that's all you've got.

Regarding what FEMA is "supposed" to do - you're right!

Instead, they actually did "take over" operations (eventually) - and not in a good kinda way. They served up nothing short of a quagmire of bureaucratic barriers to hundreds of public and private organizations throughout the country in the early days and weeks of the relief effort. There are mutiple stories of tens of thousands of trailers sitting in fields and gravel lots for months while FEMA paid for expensive hotel rooms for tens of thousands of evacuees in both Mississippi and Louisiana.

Those are your precious tax dollars at work - if they're being spent (whether you like it or not), shouldn't they at least be spent efficiently?

I base my statements on reading everything I've been able to find about Katrina in the media (but most specifically from the local paper at nola.com) - much of which I could at least attempt to dig up links for, although much of it is months old and has expired or is in paid archives - as well as dozens of residents I've talked to (some that I knew already, and some that I met in various places in the city during JazzFest), and one close friend who worked for a FEMA contractor and was in New Orleans for over three months beginning the day after the levees broke.

What information are you using to form your viewpoint? SPECIFICALLY!

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That's a significant number

Exactly how significant? How low would the number and percentage have to be to be greater than zero and not significant?
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that deserted or resigned. And those are just the ones that actually had action taken against them. You yourself admit that 10% of the police force were "scumbags." Does that not have something to do with their effectiveness in an emergency? Who was supervising that disaster of PD? Bush?

I said I'd guess 10%, and that was off the top of my head, not something I've put a lot of thought into, and I'd put the margin of error at +/- 50%, so 5% is not out of range. Plus, when I say "scumbag" I include cops who might be getting smalltime cash from some crooks, or might be guilty of some excessive force and arrests here and there - some of those "scumbags" probably stayed and did their duty while clean cops stayed in what was left of their homes to protect their families instead of reporting for duty. Anyway, I don't think those numbers would differ by more than a few percentage points if a disaster of similar proportions hit another large city in the US. There is a certain percentage of scumbag cops in every big city - and a certain number of good people whose instincts for preserving their families would overpower their sense of duty in such a situation. If you had any personal experience with or understanding of the police culture and history there, you'd understand what I'm talking about, but you don't... so... you don't.

Regardless of all that, I'm not trying to defend the police culture or the actions of the 4%, and the desertions by a small percentage of the NOPD have absolutely NOTHING to do with the ineptness of the FEMA response. No one ever expected food, water, and ice from the police. You've got a big fat red herring there.

Quote:
Do you?

Excellent - the shortest two-word single-sentence hand-waving dismissal EVAR! You should get a Guiness book entry.

Everything quoted in my previous post that wasn't quoted from you, was copied and pasted from the results of a few Google searches. I can go back into my history and post a few of them for you, sure...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102801980.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/28/105541/380
http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/...006-06-07.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22lo...utf-8&oe=utf-8
http://www.swingstateproject.com/200...na_and_the.php

Meanwhile, since YOU were the one who started the discussion about who was stopping trucks, and making a claim about "local officials" that I've honestly never heard in my extensive information-gathering efforts on Katrina and her aftermath - POST YOUR LINK FIRST. In return, I'll be more than happy to post MULTIPLE links to stories of FEMA obstructing the delivery of relief supplies.
Quote:
Of course it is. Of course. But you can make broad condemnations of the Bush Administration and FEMA without providing any real specifics. I see.

LOL. Really - you're accusing ME of making broad statements without providing specifics? Oh, that IS rich. I've yet to see anything BUT that from you.

Embrace the delusion that you've out-argued me if you must. Maybe some of the other thread participants will share their scorecard with us.

The only thing you haven't done is accuse me of lying about my first and second hand information directly from New Orleans, and I'll give you props for that. But, that means that you're going to have to work pretty hard to turn your sweeping generalizations into specifics, and provide some backup for them.

I'm guessing that trailmaster lives near but not in NOLA, but knows the situation there and how it unfolded since early September better than I do. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I'm sure that trailmaster or I could post many detailed secondhand accounts of specific stories we've heard firsthand (he might even have his own firsthand FEMA stories), but what's the use? You'll just dismiss everything we've said with a wave of your hands and a short sentence or two completely devoid of specifics, much less facts, figures, quotes or links to back them up. We and our friends have seen what we've seen and heard what we've heard from people in the thick of it. We're too weary of it all to get as detailed as we could with refuting your sweeping uninformed generalities. Thus, the suggestions that you gather some first and second hand information directly if you want to be so damn sure that you're right.

I'll say it again - smug partisan ignorance.
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post #100 of 128
FormerLurker: Detailed explanations and logical connections based on referenced info from multiple credible sources.

SDW: Strawmen, denials, hand-waving, and echo-chamber talking points. Administration apologist as usual.

Not just multiple rounds to FormerLurker, but a completely different weight-class of reasoning and writing.

Ding! Ding!
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post #101 of 128
Lurker:

Quote:
Yes it does.

See, I can make sweeping one-sentence claims as well!

Why don't you try actually addressing the multiple specific points I made? Are you going to go into specifics on why having the 209th PSD in Iraq didn't affect the effectiveness of the Federal response?

Nice try. You claimed that the deployment affected the emergency response. I would like to know how it did so. Is it the number of personnel? Vehicles? The burden of proof is not on me. You claimed it was affected, now show me how.

Quote:
That's a pretty general statement! How much more stretched would the NG resources have had to have been before you'd not make that statement that "we had the resources to do the job"?

My point was that the absence of the NG troops that were in Iraq made a difference on many levels - experience of personnel, proximity, and lack of equipment. Care to address those points?

Speaking of general statements. How do you know that the proximity of personnel, "lack of equipment" etc. caused the delay in evacuations? What would have been done differently had those troops been there? The problem with your statement is that it sounds good and nothing else. It makes sense on the surface but it's unsupported.

[quote]
How would the invocation of the Ins. Act speeded the response? How, specifically, would that have gotten food, water, and ice to the stranded thousands in New Orleans?[/i]

So wait...first you claim that it's a problem of troops, equipment, etc and now you are arguing by impplication that invoking in innsurection act would not have helped? You can't have it both ways. The insurrection act would have allowed the President to authorize active duty US Military to be deployed to NO to aid with security, rescue, etc. Without it, Federal troops cannot be used for domestic operations in most cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act

[quote]
So - how were they prepared specifically?[/quote

Wow. You're the one who made the claim FEMA was unprepared. You're not going to switch up the burden of proof on that one.

Quote:

a. Didn't have nearly enough supplies pre-positioned to help the hundreds of thousands of people in Louisiana and Mississippi without food, water, and shelter for many days after the storm.

b. Didn't get enough supplies into the disaster areas in the weeks immediately following the storm

c. Didn't move tens of thousands of trailers into the disaster area for days, weeks, and months following the storm. They paid for tens of thousands of hotel rooms instead.

d. Presented all manner of obstacles to slow the flow of relief supplies, especially in the critical first seven days following the storm

A. Really? Care to provide some documentation on that? You're taking the fact that the supplies did not get there as proof they weren't available.

B. Why is this all FEMA's responsibility? Why not State and Local?

C. They also rented out cruise ships. Are you actually upset that they provided hotels instead of trailers?

D. Come on. You should know better than that by now. That is perhaps the most general and most unsupported statement you've made.

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Wow. That is one big leap. I didn't know your brother's division of the Bush Administration was responsible for NOLA hurricane protection infrastructure! Please be sure to thank him for me for doing a heck of a job in your next Christmas card.

Shame on you - they could have used all these strawmen you're throwing out now to build a raft and save some lives in NOLA in the first week of September 2005

I'm merely saying that ripping Bush for the assumptions of the ACOE just because they're technically part of the federal government is beyond stupid. But you know, I'm sure none of the ACOE were also under the Federal government in Clinton administration. These are professionals who provide technical advice to policy makers. They may have been wrong, but that doesn't qualify their actions as something done "wrong" by FEMA or George Bush.

[quote]I said I'd guess 10%, and that was off the top of my head, not something I've put a lot of thought into, and I'd put the margin of error at +/- 50%, so 5% is not out of range. Plus, when I say "scumbag" I include cops who might be getting smalltime cash from some crooks, or might be guilty of some excessive force and arrests here and there - some of those "scumbags" probably stayed and did their duty while clean cops stayed in what was left of their homes to protect their families instead of reporting for duty. Anyway, I don't think those numbers would differ by more than a few percentage points if a disaster of similar proportions hit another large city in the US. There is a certain percentage of scumbag cops in every big city - and a certain number of good people whose instincts for preserving their families would overpower their sense of duty in such a situation. If you had any personal experience with or understanding of the police culture and history there, you'd understand what I'm talking about, but you don't... so... you don't.

Regardless of all that, I'm not trying to defend the police culture or the actions of the 4%, and the desertions by a small percentage of the NOPD have absolutely NOTHING to do with the ineptness of the FEMA response. No one ever expected food, water, and ice from the police. You've got a big fat red herring there.
[/quote

You're missing the overall point. NO was a corrupt and dysfunctional city to begin with. That contributed to the incompetent disaster response after the storm. Your statement about other cities experiencing the same thing in the same circumstances is pure speculation.

Look, as you point out I'm not accusing you of lying. I simply don't hear a lot of specifics from credible sources on what went wrong. I think blaming FEMA primarily is not appropriate. The State and Local governments were a disaster. Overall, the disaster was bigger than anyone expected. I will also concede that the Federal government was not getting the kind of information it should have been getting "on the ground" in NO. My problem is the blaming exclusively of the bush administration and then using that blame to call them "uninterested in governing," which many have done.
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post #102 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by curiousuburb
FormerLurker: Detailed explanations and logical connections based on referenced info from multiple credible sources.

SDW: Strawmen, denials, hand-waving, and echo-chamber talking points. Administration apologist as usual.

Not just multiple rounds to FormerLurker, but a completely different weight-class of reasoning and writing.

Ding! Ding!

And you will blame the administration for literally anything. Anything.
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post #103 of 128
Quote:
Nice try. You claimed that the deployment affected the emergency response. I would like to know how it did so. Is it the number of personnel? Vehicles? The burden of proof is not on me. You claimed it was affected, now show me how.

I've already done that. If you are asking for me to post and attribute specific instances that "prove" that the lack of troops, their leaders, and their equipment affected the relief and rescue effort, then you are asking for the impossible, and you know it.

How is it even possible that the lack of those did NOT affect the relief effort? It's pretty simple - if those troops, their leaders, and their equipment had been in New Orleans instead of Iraq, the NG response would have been faster, better, and more effective. How can you logically argue against that?

If you're going to claim, against all reason and logic, that this is NOT true, then support it, or quit babbling the same thing over and over.
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Speaking of general statements. How do you know that the proximity of personnel, "lack of equipment" etc. caused the delay in evacuations? What would have been done differently had those troops been there?

I mentioned a difference in the evacuation only as a possibility and in passing.
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Originally posted by FormerLurker
Heck, they might have even been able to help with the pre-storm evacuation

My argument is about the relief and rescue efforts immediately following the storm and during the flooding, not about the pre-storm evacuation. I should have known that you'd ignore that and latch on to the evacuation statement (which is still probable, if not provable).
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The problem with your statement is that it sounds good and nothing else. It makes sense on the surface but it's unsupported.

That's absolute crap, and I think you know it. What happened to your argument that National Guard availability was "adequate" - if they were, then why are you saying that active duty troops needed to be called up?

If the National Guard had been more readily available, there would have been no need for active duty troops. Your own claims are in direct conflict with each other.

Let's see - the local Nat. Guard unit, normally responsible for disaster relief, was away fighting a war in Iraq (normally the job of active duty troops), and you say the answer was to use active duty troops to do the Guard's job?

That's so absurd, it's downright comical. It's a nice example of the absurd logical gymnastics that are often required to defend the Bush Admin. from any and all criticism, though.
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The insurrection act would have allowed the President to authorize active duty US Military to be deployed to NO to aid with security, rescue, etc. Without it, Federal troops cannot be used for domestic operations in most cases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act

I see nothing in the Wiki on the Ins. Act that says it's meant to be employed for disaster relief. Security, yes. Rescue and relief, no.

If you're going to post a link in an attempt to back up your argument, please quote the part that you assert backs you up. I don't see anything on that page that supports your assertion.

So - are you saying that no active duty Federal troops were used in New Orleans because the Ins. Act wasn't invoked? Please don't ignore this question. I'm pretty sure that active troops were in fact involved extensively (eventually!).

Again, I've asked specifically what difference the Ins. Act would have made, and all you've replied with are the same unsupported generalities that you rely on while accusing me of offering nothing but the same.
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A. Really? Care to provide some documentation on that?

See below for documentation in the form of quotes with links.
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You're taking the fact that the supplies did not get there as proof they weren't available.

Isn't that the most reasonable and simple explanation of why they weren't available (lacking any evidence to the contrary, of course)? Occam's Razor (ie, the least complex explanation is the best one) and all that?

If the supplies WERE available (as you assert), but they did not get there (as you admit), then WHY didn't they get there? I've yet to hear even a reasonable theory from you, never mind proof. If you're going to argue that the most logical explanation is not the correct one, then the burden of proof is definitely on you.

You've already made this claim
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Originally posted by SDW2001
Let's talk about local officials stopping trucks full of water and ice from getting through.

without supporting it - I've asked you to provide proof several times, and you keep ignoring it. You countered my request for proof with a request of your own for my statement of FACT that I'd only seen and heard stories about FEMA stopping trucks (which I only brought up in response to your assertion about local officials). Despite the fact that you made your claim before I made mine, I've got multiple quotes with links supporting that below. Meanwhile, only your last post contained any links whatsoever, and that was just a single link to the Ins. Act wiki, with nothing quoted by you.

HOW ABOUT THOSE "LOCAL OFFICIALS" THAT STOPPED TRUCKS? LET'S SEE SOME PROOF! QUOTES AND LINKS!
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B. Why is this all FEMA's responsibility? Why not State and Local?

Asked and answered. Please quit arguing in circles.
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
What do you think the mission/purpose of FEMA is? I've always interpreted it as an agency to coordinate the resources of the Federal government in time of a disaster so severe and/or widespread that responding to it was beyond the scope of State and Local governments (who would likely be affected by the disaster themselves).

And was this such a disaster? YES - the biggest one in our nation's history! And it took days for the Federal government, from Bush on down, to even begin take the response seriously.

THE PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY FOR RESPONSE TO A DISASTER OF THIS SCOPE LIES WITH FEMA AND NOT WITH STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS. If you disagree, please make some coherent and credible points as to exactly WHY.

Furthermore, show me where I ever said "this is All FEMA's responsibility?" In fact, I said:
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
They're not exactly happy with anyone State and Local either, but Bush and FEMA are on the top of everyone's $hit list.

Please don't try to transfer your own propensity for binary thinking on to me.
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C. They also rented out cruise ships. Are you actually upset that they provided hotels instead of trailers?

Yes, I am. Besides being much more cost-effective, trailers provide more room, and most importantly allow property owners to keep watch over what is left of their property to prevent looting of fixtures and building supplies. At worst, they'd be in a "trailer city", instead of a hotel. I don't know anyone in the New Orleans area that would prefer a hotel room or cruise ship cabin over a trailer.

Are you trying to imply with the cruise ship and hotel rooms argument that people left homeless should just consider this a long, fun vacation? "Let them sit in the hot tubs and eat cake!" ?

Are you happy that a much less expensive solution such as the trailers was not utilized?
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D. Come on. You should know better than that by now. That is perhaps the most general and most unsupported statement you've made.

See multiple supporting quotes with links below.
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I'm merely saying that ripping Bush for the assumptions of the ACOE just because they're technically part of the federal government is beyond stupid. But you know, I'm sure none of the ACOE were also under the Federal government in Clinton administration.

Well, at least you're not trying to defend your Patent Office strawman....
The ACOE situation, which is worse under Bush than it's ever been, goes back to at least the Nixon administration in reference to the Greater NOLA levee system, and it also includes Reagan and Bush I (yeah, and Carter too). That's backed up by several of my links, including this one:
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A contrite U.S. Army Corps of Engineers took responsibility Thursday for the flooding of New Orleans by Hurricane Katrina and said the levees failed because they were built in a disjointed fashion using outdated data.

Last month, a report by outside engineers said the Corps was dysfunctional and unreliable. That group, led by experts from the University of California at Berkeley, recommended setting up an agency to oversee the Corps' projects nationwide.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060602/...a_corps_report

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These are professionals who provide technical advice to policy makers.

And build levees. They go way beyond "providing advice to policy makers" and you should know that.
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They may have been wrong, but that doesn't qualify their actions as something done "wrong" by FEMA or George Bush.

Asked and answered. Please quit arguing in circles.
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Show me where I ever pointed to the ACOE fuck-ups as the fault of FEMA and Bush. I'm just pointing out that there's a whole lot here that YOU can't pin on the State and Local folks, as you've been trying so hard to do - and if you want to play the blame game, this very significant contributor to the scope of the disaster goes straight to Washington.

Other than the fact that Katrina was as strong as it was and hit where it did, the AOCE fuck-ups were the greatest contributor to the scope of the disaster. You can't blame that on the State or Local governments.
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You're missing the overall point. NO was a corrupt and dysfunctional city to begin with.

I agree, to some extent.
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That contributed to the incompetent disaster response after the storm.

I agree, to some extent. I maintain, however, that such contribution was minimal compared to that of the many ongoing and well-documented FEMA fuck-ups.
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Your statement about other cities experiencing the same thing in the same circumstances is pure speculation.

Sure it it. I consider it reasonable and well-informed speculation.

I don't feel the same about your implied pure speculation that other cities' experiences would be substantially different. Have you ever lived in a big city (say, top 20)? How much time have you spent in big cities, and how many? I suspect that, much like my experience with Greater NOLA both pre and post Katrina, that you have a more narrow frame of reference and experience with big cities nationwide than I do.
Quote:
Look, as you point out I'm not accusing you of lying. I simply don't hear a lot of specifics from credible sources on what went wrong. I think blaming FEMA primarily is not appropriate.

Yes, I agree that your information sources are vastly smaller in both number and reliability than mine are. Thus the suggestion to go to the area and see sights and talk to people for yourself.

However, I think that blaming FEMA primarily (NOT entirely, as you've tried to paint as my position) is appropriate as well as logical and reasonable. Their ENTIRE reason for existence is to take the PRIMARY relief role following a large disaster. Therefore, the PRIMARY blame for problems with the response lies with them (lacking any credible evidence to the contrary, which you have yet to provide). With the resources of the Federal government at their disposal, their abilities dwarf those of the State and Local authorities.
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Overall, the disaster was bigger than anyone expected.

Untrue. I've already cited the extensive series from 2002 in the local newspaper - here's the link one more time. http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/

FEMA specifically had plenty of warning of the scope of the disaster. Here's a couple more QUOTES with LINKS, and I'm sure you can find much more if you Google "Hurricane Pam" "New Orleans" FEMA
Quote:
KEEPING ITS HEAD ABOVE WATER - New Orleans faces doomsday scenario
By ERIC BERGER - Copyright 2001 Houston Chronicle Science Writer

New Orleans is sinking. And its main buffer from a hurricane, the protective Mississippi River delta, is quickly eroding away, leaving the historic city perilously close to disaster.

So vulnerable, in fact, that earlier this year [2001] the Federal Emergency Management Agency ranked the potential damage to New Orleans as among the three likeliest, most castastrophic disasters facing this country.

The other two? A massive earthquake in San Francisco, and, almost prophetically, a terrorist attack on New York City.

The New Orleans hurricane scenario may be the deadliest of all.

Economically, the toll would be shattering. Southern Louisiana produces one-third of the country's seafood, one-fifth of its oil and one-quarter of its natural gas. The city's tourism, lifeblood of the French Quarter, would cease to exist. The Big Easy might never recover.
http://www.hurricane.lsu.edu/_in_the_news/houston.htm

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Hurricane Pam Exercise Concludes

Release Date: July 23, 2004 - Release Number: R6-04-093

BATON ROUGE, La. -- Hurricane Pam brought sustained winds of 120 mph, up to 20 inches of rain in parts of southeast Louisiana and storm surge that topped levees in the New Orleans area. More than one million residents evacuated and Hurricane Pam destroyed 500,000-600,000 buildings. Emergency officials from 50 parish, state, federal and volunteer organizations faced this scenario during a five-day exercise held this week at the State Emergency Operations Center in Baton Rouge.

The exercise used realistic weather and damage information developed by the National Weather Service, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the LSU Hurricane Center and other state and federal agencies to help officials develop joint response plans for a catastrophic hurricane in Louisiana.

"We made great progress this week in our preparedness efforts," said Ron Castleman, FEMA Regional Director. "Disaster response teams developed action plans in critical areas such as search and rescue, medical care, sheltering, temporary housing, school restoration and debris management. These plans are essential for quick response to a hurricane but will also help in other emergencies."
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=13051

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I will also concede that the Federal government was not getting the kind of information it should have been getting "on the ground" in NO. My problem is the blaming exclusively of the bush administration and then using that blame to call them "uninterested in governing," which many have done.

Asked and answered. I've never blamed the Bush administration exclusively for the poor response - just primarily. I'll leave the "uninterested in governing" part for another thread, since it's part of a pattern, and not just a Katrina response issue.

Additional supporting links and quotes will be posted below.
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post #104 of 128
QUOTES - WITH LINKS
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Walter Maestri, head of emergency preparedness for Jefferson Parish, told the BBC that Fema officials promised emergency teams from the area that they would supply food, water, medical provisions, and assistance with transporting evacuees from the city - all within 48 hours of the emergency.

In the event [Katrina], these emergency teams were left without the help they asked for.

Mr. Brown now concedes that despite years of planning, the emergency response was not ready.

"The planning was put together... we did that exercise and had the conclusions in July last year, and then through our budget cycles have to decide what resources to apply to it, so we'd just started that process.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4331330.stm

Quote:
. On 2 September 2005, CNN's Soledad O'Brien asked FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) head Mike Brown "How is it possible that we're getting better info than you were getting we were showing live pictures of the people outside the Convention Center...also we'd been reporting that officials had been telling people to go to the Convention Center I don't understand how FEMA cannot have this information." When pressed, Brown reluctantly admitted he had learned about the starving crowds at the Convention Center from news media reports. O'Brien then said to Brown, [b]"FEMA's been on the ground four days, going into the fifth day, why no massive air drop of food and water in Banda Aceh, Indonesia, they got food drops two days after the tsunami."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/kat...nse/index.html

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Feb. 9 In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, Bush administration officials said they had been caught by surprise when they were told on Tuesday, Aug. 30, that a levee had broken, allowing floodwaters to engulf New Orleans.

But Congressional investigators have now learned that an eyewitness account of the flooding from a federal emergency official reached the Homeland Security Department's headquarters starting at 9:27 p.m. the day before, and the White House itself at midnight.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency official, Marty Bahamonde, first heard of a major levee breach Monday morning. By late Monday afternoon, Mr. Bahamonde had hitched a ride on a Coast Guard helicopter over the breach at the 17th Street Canal to confirm the extensive flooding. He then telephoned his report to FEMA headquarters in Washington, which notified the Homeland Security Department.

Mr. Chertoff failed to name a principal federal official to oversee the response before the hurricane arrived, an omission a top Pentagon official acknowledged to investigators complicated the coordination of the response. His department also did not plan enough to prevent a conflict over which agency should be in charge of law enforcement support. And Mr. Chertoff was either poorly informed about the levee break or did not recognize the significance of the initial report about it, investigators said.

Investigators could find no evidence that food and water supplies were formally ordered for the Convention Center, where more than 10,000 evacuees had assembled, until days after the city had decided to open it as a backup emergency shelter. FEMA had planned to have 360,000 ready-to-eat meals delivered to the city and 15 trucks of water in advance of the storm. But only 40,000 meals and five trucks of water had arrived.

Representative Thomas M. Davis III, Republican of Virginia, chairman of the special House committee investigating the hurricane response, said the only government agency that performed well was the National Weather Service, which correctly predicted the force of the storm. But no one heeded the message, he said.

"The president is still at his ranch, the vice president is still fly-fishing in Wyoming, the president's chief of staff is in Maine," Mr. Davis said. "In retrospect, don't you think it would have been better to pull together? They should have had better leadership. It is disengagement."

One of the greatest mysteries for both the House and Senate committees has been why it took so long, even after Mr. Bahamonde filed his urgent report on the Monday the storm hit, for federal officials to appreciate that the levee had broken and that New Orleans was flooding.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/10/po...rssnyt&emc=rss

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The FEMA ice follies
How come ice cant efficiently reach those in need?
By Lisa Myers & the NBC Investigative Unit
NBC News - Updated: 7:37 p.m. ET Sept 16, 2005
Lisa Myers - Senior investigative correspondent

WASHINGTON - Initially, after Hurricane Katrina, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, was slow in getting ice and water to victims. NBC News decided to look at the ice situation now, as a microcosm of the relief effort, and found that FEMA ordered plenty of ice but getting it to those who need it has been chaotic.

Friday, NBC News located hundreds of trucks full of ice sitting around the country: in Maryland, Missouri, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi and Louisiana. Some had been on trips to nowhere for the past two weeks.

Elizabeth Palmer is a truck driver in Carthage, Mo. We really dont understand, said Palmer, why FEMA is sending to all these different locations and just putting us in cold storage.

Dan Wessels Cool Express ice company has worked with FEMA for years. He says he's never seen anything like it only one-third of his trucks have actually unloaded the ice that FEMA ordered.

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, said Wessels. The right hand is telling us to go to the left hand. We get to the left hand, they tell us to go back."

For example, one truck of ice left Oshkosh, Wis., on Sept. 6, and went to Louisiana. Then it was sent by FEMA to Georgia but was rerouted before it arrived to South Carolina, then to Cumberland, Md., where it has been sitting for three days at an added cost to taxpayers so far of $9,000.

Multiplied by hundreds of trucks, this sort of dispatching could mean millions of dollars are being wasted.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9369937

Quote:
Is Katrina cleanup a fleecing of America?
Congress scrutinizes debris removal contracts for waste
By Lisa Myers & the NBC Investigative Unit
NBC News - Updated: 7:37 p.m. ET Sept 16, 2005
Lisa Myers - Senior investigative correspondent
WASHINGTON - The collection, hauling and smashing of debris in Louisiana and Mississippi resulting from Hurricane Katrina is still a daily ritual that has already cost taxpayers almost $2.5 billion. But government investigators and those closest to the cleanup now say hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars may have been wasted. Workers, contractors and government investigators say the large size of the contracts and the multiple tiers of subcontractors have pushed up the cost of the cleanup while slowing down the pace of the operation.

The Army Corps of Engineers gave debris removal contracts to four major corporations which did little actual cleanup themselves, instead farming out much of the job to layers of local subcontractors. The result? They were able to make huge, huge sums of profits off of actually other people doing work to clean up our communities, and that's not the way it should be, says Hebert.

The four primary contractors Ashbritt Inc., CERES Environmental Services Inc., Environmental Chemical Corp. and Phillips and Jordan Inc. were each provided with a $500 million contract and a $500 million option by the Army Corps. The companies claim that they did not permit multiple tiers of subcontractors but admit that in some cases their subcontractors may have subcontracted to others. By contract, Environmental Services Inc. permits only two layers of subcontractors, but the company acknowledges that in a few rare instances it found as many as five layers of subcontractors. Ashbritt says it took pains to ensure that it had only one tier of subcontractors on the debris removal work it performed in Mississippi. But in one case NBC News discovered four tiers of subcontractors.

Here's an example of how it worked: The Ashbritt company was paid $23 for every cubic yard of debris it removed. It in turn hired C&B Enterprises, which was paid $9 per cubic yard. That company hired Amlee Transportation, which was paid $8 per cubic yard. Amlee hired Chris Hessler Inc, which received $7 per cubic yard. Hessler, in turn, hired Les Nirdlinger, a debris hauler from New Jersey, who was paid $3 per cubic yard.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13153520

Quote:
. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790

Quote:
"The heart-rending pictures broadcast from the Gulf Coast drew offers of every possible kind of help. But FEMA found itself accused repeatedly of putting bureaucratic niceties ahead of getting aid to those who desperately needed it. Hundreds of firefighters, who responded to a nationwide call for help in the disaster, were held by the federal agency in Atlanta for days of training on community relations and sexual harassment before being sent on to the devastated area. The delay, some volunteers complained, meant lives were being lost in New Orleans. On the news every night you hear, How come everybody forgot us? said Joseph Manning, a firefighter from Washington, Pa., told The Dallas Morning News. We didn't forget. We're stuck in Atlanta drinking beer. William D. Vines, a former mayor of Fort Smith, Ark., helped deliver food and water to areas hit by the hurricane. But he said FEMA halted two trailer trucks carrying thousands of bottles of water to Camp Beauregard, near Alexandria, La., a staging area for the distribution of supplies. FEMA would not let the trucks unload, Mr. Vines said in an interview. The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road about 10 miles from Camp Beauregard. FEMA said we had to have a 'tasker number.' What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork, and it's ridiculous."
http://www.louisianaweekly.com/weekl...e.pl?20050912g

Quote:
on August 28, it was clear from the National Hurricane Centres flood warnings that federal assistance would be needed swiftly and on a huge scale. Yet it took four days to materialise, largely because of the inertia of the Federal Emergency Management Administration (Fema).

Fema, an umbrella for 14 federal agencies that form part of the giant new Department of Homeland Security, is a key link in the chain of command from President Bush and the US military to local first responders. It has also proved to be the weakest link. It has been starved of funds and denied direct access to the President since September 11, and is led by a former head of the Arabian Horse Association.

Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, insisted: The Department of Defence is not a first responder. You need to be invited. That invitation should have come from Fema but was not received until last Thursday. Fighting for his political life yesterday, Michael Brown, the beleaguered Fema chief, revealed that he had asked the Department of Homeland Security for authority to send 1,000 personnel to the New Orleans area within 48 hours of the hurricane hitting, and a further 2,000 within the next week. The delays were to allow for special disaster training, a spokesman said. Congressional investigators are likely to ask why that training had not already been completed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...0245_2,00.html

Quote:
After the authorities in Baton Rouge had prepared a field hospital for victims of the storm, Fema sent its first batch of supplies, all of which were designed for use against chemical attack, including drugs such as Cipro, which is designed for use against anthrax. "We called them up and asked them: 'Why did you send that, and they said that's what it says in the book'," said a Baton Rouge official.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/st...561909,00.html

Quote:
More than 50 civilian aircraft responding to separate requests for evacuations from hospitals and other agencies swarmed to the area a day after Katrina hit, but FEMA blocked their efforts. Aircraft operators complained that FEMA waved off a number of evacuation attempts, saying the rescuers were not authorized. "Many planes and helicopters simply sat idle," said Thomas Judge, president of the Assn. of Air Medical Services.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

Quote:
When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims - far more efficiently than buses - FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only to be ignored by the agency.
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/sep2...5-09-07-04.asp

Quote:
It's a standing joke among the president's top aides: who gets to deliver the bad news? Warm and hearty in public, Bush can be cold and snappish in private, and aides sometimes cringe before the displeasure of the president of the United States, or, as he is known in West Wing jargon, POTUS. The bad news on this early morning, Tuesday, Aug. 30, some 24 hours after Hurricane Katrina had ripped through New Orleans, was that the president would have to cut short his five-week vacation by a couple of days and return to Washington. The president's chief of staff, Andrew Card; his deputy chief of staff, Joe Hagin; his counselor, Dan Bartlett, and his spokesman, Scott McClellan, held a conference call to discuss the question of the president's early return and the delicate task of telling him. Hagin, it was decided, as senior aide on the ground, would do the deed.

The president did not growl this time. He had already decided to return to Washington and hold a meeting of his top advisers on the following day, Wednesday. This would give them a day to get back from their vacations and their staffs to work up some ideas about what to do in the aftermath of the storm. President Bush knew the storm and its consequences had been bad; but he didn't quite realize how bad.

The reality, say several aides who did not wish to be quoted because it might displease the president, did not really sink in until Thursday night. Some White House staffers were watching the evening news and thought the president needed to see the horrific reports coming out of New Orleans. Counselor Bartlett made up a DVD of the newscasts so Bush could see them in their entirety as he flew down to the Gulf Coast the next morning on Air Force One.

How this could behow the president of the United States could have even less "situational awareness," as they say in the military, than the average American about the worst natural disaster in a centuryis one of the more perplexing and troubling chapters in a story that, despite moments of heroism and acts of great generosity, ranks as a national disgrace.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434

Quote:
KATRINA TAKES AIM
Sunday, August 28, 2005 - By Bruce Nolan - Staff writer

More than a million people were jolted out of their weekend routines and spent a tense, hot Saturday preparing for a surprising Hurricane Katrina, which curved unexpectedly toward the low-lying city and is expected to make landfall Monday morning.

Katrina was expected to approach the area as a Category 4 storm, with winds of 145 mph, and it could build to a top-of-the-chart Category 5 storm, with winds of 155 mph or higher, National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield said Saturday afternoon.

A computer model run by the LSU Hurricane Center late Saturday confirmed that. It indicated the metropolitan area was poised to see a repeat of Betsy's flooding, or worse, with storm surge of as much as 16 feet moving up the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet and topping levees in Chalmette and eastern New Orleans, and pushing water into the 9th Ward and parts of Mid-City. High water flowing from Lake Pontchartrain through St. Charles Parish also would flood over levees into Kenner, according to the model.

President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana, authorizing federal emergency management officials to release federal aid and coordinate disaster relief efforts.
http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf...49320.xml?nola

Quote:
It is not yet known why FEMA refused assistance from Amtrak[119][120][121], the Coast Guard[122], the Navy[123], the City of Chicago[124], morticians[125], citizen flotillas[126], and first responders across the nation.[127]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici...ricane_Katrina
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post #105 of 128
Lurker,

First, can you back off with the 20,0000 word posts? It's a bit tiresome.

I am in fact asking you for specifics. I agree that your premise sounds logical, but that does not prove it actually happened. That's the entire point.

Secondly, the invoking the Insurrection Act was debated within the administration. I do not have a link to that, but was reported by several reputable news services. I can only assume that they considered it under the "security" language as justification for sending in federal active duty troops. After all, there was widespread looting and general chaos, no? They decided not to invoke it, and I'm saying I think that was a mistake. That statement is not incompatible with my claim that there were enough military resources. I just don't think we used them to their fullest capacity.

Quote:
Isn't that the most reasonable and simple explanation of why they weren't available (lacking any evidence to the contrary, of course)? Occam's Razor (ie, the least complex explanation is the best one) and all that?

Don't give me the Occam's Razor shit. For whatever reason the supplies didn't get to where they needed to be. Given the scope of the destruction, it's not unreasonable to assume that it was difficult to locate the various people that needed those supplies most. We're talking about a huge area. I know you're claiming that supplies were not pre-positioned properly. The fact of the matter is that no one believed that scope of the destruction would be what it was. It was thought that N.O. had dodged a bullet even after the storm...until the levees broke. Government and private citizens at all levels underestimated the nature of the disaster.

Quote:
You've already made this claim

quote:Originally posted by SDW2001
Let's talk about local officials stopping trucks full of water and ice from getting through.

without supporting it - I've asked you to provide proof several times, and you keep ignoring it. You countered my request for proof with a request of your own for my statement of FACT that I'd only seen and heard stories about FEMA stopping trucks (which I only brought up in response to your assertion about local officials). Despite the fact that you made your claim before I made mine, I've got multiple quotes with links supporting that below. Meanwhile, only your last post contained any links whatsoever, and that was just a single link to the Ins. Act wiki, with nothing quoted by you.

This was another widely reported item. Here's an article written from a clearly anti-administration viewpoint. Notice the following, however:

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm (Knight Ridder)

Quote:
[bold]Roads were washed out and relief trucks were stopped by state police trying to keep people out of hazardous areas, he said.[/bold]


Quote:
Yes, I am. Besides being much more cost-effective, trailers provide more room, and most importantly allow property owners to keep watch over what is left of their property to prevent looting of fixtures and building supplies. At worst, they'd be in a "trailer city", instead of a hotel. I don't know anyone in the New Orleans area that would prefer a hotel room or cruise ship cabin over a trailer.

Are you trying to imply with the cruise ship and hotel rooms argument that people left homeless should just consider this a long, fun vacation? "Let them sit in the hot tubs and eat cake!" ?

Are you happy that a much less expensive solution such as the trailers was not utilized?

I'm not thrilled about the cost of the ships and hotels. I also think the feds did what had to be done to get that many people taken care of. I also think you're grasping a straws when you complain about someone sitting on a cruise ship instead of a goddamn trailer. Please.

Quote:
Well, at least you're not trying to defend your Patent Office strawman....
The ACOE situation, which is worse under Bush than it's ever been, goes back to at least the Nixon administration in reference to the Greater NOLA levee system, and it also includes Reagan and Bush I (yeah, and Carter too). That's backed up by several of my links, including this one:

It wasn't a strawman. It was a comparison to illustrate how ridiculous it sounds when you blame the Bush administration for the assumptions made by ACOE. Yes, I understand they do more than provide advice. However, you seemed to be blaming the Bush Admin. for listening to that data and the estimates they were given by experts in the field.

With all respect, I'm not getting into the rest of your post because you're just repeating yourself. You can post all the links from 2001 and 2002 you want, but the scope of the disaster took nearly everyone by surprise, even those who knew of the doomsday scenario predictions. There were mistakes made at all levels. I still maintain that the local and state responses were pathetic. It's obvious from the tone of your posts, though, that you feel strongly about this to the point of going from arguing points to vehmently attacking points you disagree with. It's also evident from your accusations of my "ignoring" parts of your posts. The fact is that when you post so, um, prolifically, that your posts become a bit hard to follow. After all, half the time you quote yourself.

In the end, you're convinced this is primarily FEMA's fault and by extension, the Bush Administration's. I don't think it matters how many things the Local and State Governments can be shown to have done wrong...you'll still think that. So let's just let it go at this point. I for one am done.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #106 of 128
i posted something ugly. i'm taking it back b/c it's not worth it. This thread is......
post #107 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by trailmaster308
...

Don't forget about Billly McGee, a sheriff in Hattiesburg who, when faced with the incompetence of FEMA, stole (at gunpoint, I believe) two FEMA trucks full of ice to deliver them to where they were needed:

Quote:
# Steed's office notified him at about 6:30 a.m. Sept. 4 that five trucks of ice and five of water were lost between Jackson and Hattiesburg and weren't expected to arrive that day. HOW THE HELL DO YOU GET LOST BETWEEN HATTIESBURG AND JACKSON?!?! IT'S ONE STRAIGHT ROAD FOR 80 MILES!!!

# About 7 a.m., emergency management personnel told McGee of the FEMA staging area and suggested ice might be available there.

# McGee sent a deputy to Camp Shelby who returned with the message that FEMA officials there couldn't release the ice but had provided a phone number of someone who might be able to.

"I called that phone number periodically for the next five hours and never got an answer," McGee said.

# After 1 p.m., McGee and three deputies went to Camp Shelby. The FEMA staging area director reported he had not gotten authority to release two trucks of ice. In response to questions from McGee, he said two trucks which were idling were filled with ice and were not assigned to a destination.

"I told him I had tried for four or five hours to get somebody at that number," McGee said. "He kind of smirked and said, 'To be truthful, sheriff, there's nobody at that number who could release it.' "

# The drivers of the ice trucks were willing to follow deputies to the distribution sites in Petal and Brooklyn.

"As we started out of the staging area, a National Guardsman jumped on the side of the lead truck, either trying to get the keys or pull the driver out," McGee said.

# When the soldier refused to get off the truck, he was handcuffed, placed in a patrol car and driven to the sheriff's office where he was cited for interfering with an officer and released.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #108 of 128
Quote:
First, can you back off with the 20,0000 word posts? It's a bit tiresome.

Agreed - I've never been a fan of mega-posts, and rarely make them (you think reading them is tiresome, try writing them!). This discussion has evolved into a few distinct subtopics, and I should have split my posts.

In fairness, though, you did in fact request specifics as well as documentation, so some of the credit for the post length is yours to share.

Quote:
I am in fact asking you for specifics. I agree that your premise sounds logical, but that does not prove it actually happened. That's the entire point.

And your alternate explanations are less logical, with even less to support them. We might as well be debating Creation vs. Evolution here - it's pointless as long as you ignore logic and insist on me providing absolute and indisputable proof of everything I say, while not offering facts even remotely comparable to mine to support yourself.

I'll let my points and my proofs offered of them stand against your versions of the same any day.
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post #109 of 128
Quote:
Secondly, the invoking the Insurrection Act was debated within the administration. I do not have a link to that, but was reported by several reputable news services. I can only assume that they considered it under the "security" language as justification for sending in federal active duty troops. After all, there was widespread looting and general chaos, no? They decided not to invoke it, and I'm saying I think that was a mistake. That statement is not incompatible with my claim that there were enough military resources. I just don't think we used them to their fullest capacity.

Yes, it was debated, and IIRC Rumsfeld was the leading voice against it.

Perhaps it would have helped reduce looting - or perhaps not. There's a much lesser chance that it would have affected rescue and relief operations, which (eventually) had plenty of active duty troop support (link available upon request!).

Of course, there's no way for you to prove that it WOULD have had a significant effect, so your point is worthless.
(you don't mind if I borrow one of your discussion "techniques" I hope)

Regardless of all that, your claim that it was the ONLY thing the Federal government did wrong is beyond absurd. It's willfully ignorant.
Quote:
Don't give me the Occam's Razor shit. For whatever reason the supplies didn't get to where they needed to be. Given the scope of the destruction, it's not unreasonable to assume that it was difficult to locate the various people that needed those supplies most.

Actually that would be completely unreasonable. The majority of the people (tens of thousands) that needed the supplies the most were concentrated in three places - the Superdome, the Convention Center, and the I-10 overpasses. The rest of the people were on rooftops or in attics, sure, but not all that difficult to locate, as proven later when supplies became available and they were dropped from helicopters to those people while they were waiting to be rescued by boat.
Quote:
I know you're claiming that supplies were not pre-positioned properly. The fact of the matter is that no one believed that scope of the destruction would be what it was.

Wrong. I've already given ample evidence to the contrary, and won't bother repeating myself - it is indeed getting tiresome.
Quote:
It was thought that N.O. had dodged a bullet even after the storm...until the levees broke. Government and private citizens at all levels underestimated the nature of the disaster.

So they were originally prepared for a bigger disaster, but then FEMA sent pre-positioned supply trucks home on Monday in the mere hours separating the storm and the flood because they "thought they dodged a bullet"? Completely ridiculous. If that had been a factor at all, I'm sure the grand marshalls of the excuse parade would have trotted it out long ago.
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post #110 of 128
Quote:
Here's an article written from a clearly anti-administration viewpoint. Notice the following, however:

Yeah, I read the entire article, and found many more interesting quotes to support my position than to support yours. I don't know about the "viewpoint" of the article, but the facts themselves do seem to be anti-administration... hmm... maybe the writer just omitted the quotes from disaster relief officials that praised FEMA because they didn't support his "viewpoint"!

Quote:
The federal government so far has bungled the job of quickly helping the multitudes of hungry, thirsty and desperate victims of Hurricane Katrina, former top federal, state and local disaster chiefs said Wednesday.

The experts, including a former Bush administration disaster response manager, told Knight Ridder that the government wasn't prepared, scrimped on storm spending and shifted its attention from dealing with natural disasters to fighting the global war on terrorism.

Quote:
In interviews on Wednesday, several men and women who've led relief efforts for dozens of killer hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes over the years chastised current disaster leaders for forgetting the simple Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared.

Quote:
But residents, especially in Biloxi, Miss., said they aren't seeing the promised help, and Knight Ridder reporters along the Gulf Coast said they saw little visible federal relief efforts, other than search-and-rescue teams. Some help started arriving Wednesday by the truckloads, but not everywhere.

"We're not getting any help yet," said Biloxi Fire Department Battalion Chief Joe Boney. "We need water. We need ice. I've been told it's coming, but we've got people in shelters who haven't had a drink since the storm."

Like I said before - there were many problems outside of New Orleans. Biloxi had a different State AND Local government. What was the constant here? FEMA! Just another nugget to disprove your assertion that State and Local governments were primarily responsible for the poor response.
Quote:
Nonetheless, victims of this week's hurricane should have gotten more, said John Copenhaver, a former southeastern regional FEMA director.

"I would have difficulty explaining why there has not been a visible presence of ice, water, tarps - the kind of stuff that typically get delivered to hurricane areas," Copenhaver said.

Plenty of Cipro though, I'm sure!
Quote:
the [FEMA] group was to design a plan to fix such unresolved problems as evacuating sick and injured people from the Superdome and housing tens of thousands of stranded citizens.

Funding for that planning was cut, said Tolbert, the former FEMA disaster response director.

I also enjoyed this response to your quote about the washed-out roads:
Quote:
That explanation didn't satisfy Joe Myers, Florida's former emergency management chief.

"I would think that yesterday they could have flown in," said Myers. "Everyone was flying in. Put it this way, FOX and CNN are there. If they can get there ..."

Indeed.

Now - let's see... this article was posted Wed. Aug. 31, 2005. The quote you gave was attributed to "A FEMA spokesman, James McIntyre."

Not a FEMA official, but a spokesman. A PR flunkey. Grasping at straws trying to make excuses early on, before things even went from bad to worse to horrific.

If that was indeed a justification that could "hold water" then why was that the ONLY time we heard it? Shouldn't we have heard it ad infinitum as part of the orchestrated campaign to defend the FEMA response?

Furthermore, while there were certainly roads washed out, there were alternate routes, which State police would have been very aware of.

In short, I don't believe for a minute that there is much truth in McIntyre's claim, and even IF there were, it is not likely to have been more than a few trucks, or we surely would have heard about this potential defense of FEMA more than just one time... 3 days after the storm... from a low-level FEMA PR hack.
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post #111 of 128
Look, you can go on thinking whatever you like. This has become nothing but a pissing contest.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #112 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Look, you can go on thinking whatever you like. This has become nothing but a pissing contest.

Listen, blowhard - you were the one who went on and on about something that you knew nothing about.

So just shut up and accept getting your ass handed to you, because you asked for it. Repeatedly.

This isn't some obscure political debate - this is people's lives we're talking about here.
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post #113 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
And you will blame the administration for literally anything. Anything.


If the shoe fits......
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #114 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Listen, blowhard - you were the one who went on and on about something that you knew nothing about.

So just shut up and accept getting your ass handed to you, because you asked for it. Repeatedly.

This isn't some obscure political debate - this is people's lives we're talking about here.

Again, you're obviously angry and not able to be truly objective despite your intelligent responses. I just don't see the point in pissing back and forth with you.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #115 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Again, you're obviously angry and not able to be truly objective despite your intelligent responses. I just don't see the point in pissing back and forth with you.

"That's bullshit and you know it."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #116 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Again, you're obviously angry and not able to be truly objective despite your intelligent responses. I just don't see the point in pissing back and forth with you.

When a man loses, he doesn't try to pretend that he didn't.
post #117 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
When a man loses, he doesn't try to pretend that he didn't.

No, I simply saw the futility in going any further with him. It doesn't matter what is posted because he is a True Believer with regard to the Bush Administration's response to Katrina.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #118 of 128
Thread Starter 
Katrina? How did we get to Katrina?

The biggest lesson we should have learned from Katrina is that a welfare state destroys people. I see Katrina folk everday. Those people have been so conditioned by the welfare state that they have no clue how to help themselves. I'm not critical of the people. I am critical of the welfare engineers who made them the way that they are.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #119 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
The biggest lesson we should have learned from Katrina is that a welfare state destroys people.

And massive flooding. That destroys people, too.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #120 of 128
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
Katrina? How did we get to Katrina?

The biggest lesson we should have learned from Katrina is that a welfare state destroys people. I see Katrina folk everday. Those people have been so conditioned by the welfare state that they have no clue how to help themselves. I'm not critical of the people. I am critical of the welfare engineers who made them the way that they are.

"Welfare state"? What's that?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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