Apple's Mac Pro to sport twin engines - Page 2

Given that even the entry level laptops are dual core, I believe that we will see an all Quad-core lineup for the Mac Pro - i.e. dual Woodcrests across the board.

Entry: 2 x Xeon 5130 (2.0 GHz) $2199
Mid: 2 x Xeon 5140 (2.33 GHz) $2699
High: 2 x Xeon 5150 (2.67 GHz) $3499

The 5160 will be available only as a BTO option (+ $500) on the High end. Note that the 5130, 5140, 5150, and 5150 are expected to be priced at $316, $455, $690, and $851 respectively.

fair enough. i must not do those thing enough to make it worth the effort to put another internal drive in. i've used a firewire dvd burner and my internal at the same time and it works just fine. then again, i don't dupe discs very often. i burn them from images, but i don't do very high volume so i don't think i'd pay for an extra drive just to save a few minutes on the rare occassions where i need to make more than one copy of a disc.

If that is the case then I hope for Apple's sake that they come out with a Mac line to complement the iMac and MacPro. Your price range amounts for another "Price Hike" for the PowerMac/MacPro line which has for most of it's life with PowerPC's hovered around $1599, with low end models making it as low as $1299 and topping out at $1999. Apple really does need a non-AIO model that sells for less than $2000 and preferably no higher than $1599. There are many reasons for this, though I admit fewer with the latest version of the 20" iMac. I fear that without a model like this Apple will find it harder to grow market share, and they risk slowing down the upgrade cycle in the graphics markets where large monitors are always needed but not always the fastest processor for all tasks. Then there is the "Switcher" market from gamers to "Geeks" who might be attracted to a Mac IF they had a more affordable tower.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about. It would be so sweet.

I've been surprised that Apple is willing to use the top of the line Intel chips in their systems.

MBP has 2 and 2.16. MB has 1.83 and 2. iMac has 1.83 and 2 GHz Core Duos. Even the Mac mini has Core Solo and Core Duos instead of Celeron M or Celerons.

So I would wager that Apple will have 2x2.33 GHz, 2x2.67 GHz and 2x3.0 GHz Xeon powered Mac Pros. Perhaps the only drawback will be the lack of 2 PCIe x16 slots.

I use photoshop on a daily basis and it's not too shabby on my new macbook. I really only have edited web graphics so far though (nothing major)...

Not my 300dpi 8' banners yet...

The processor is unknown because Intel probably doesn't know yet. It tends to be a last minute thing of what is ready at the time.

Hopefully smaller boards mean more room in the case for drives and internal expansions necessary for a pro mac and maybe two form factors with a smaller mid-tower.

i read somewhere
5130, 5140, 5150, 5160 are xeon not woodcrest???

Incorrect.

Xeon 5000 sequence is Dempsey last of the Netburst.

Xeon 5100 sequence is Woodcrest.

I think they can fit 2 x 2.0 Xeons for $2000. That's $650 for processors, $300 for graphics card, even if $700 for everything else, that's $350 profit, a margin of 15%, and even with $200 off on education sales, they still rake in $150 on each sale.

Also, Dell and HP will have Conroes at 2.67 GHz in $1500 boxes. A Mac Pro can't have a Conroe unless it's an overclocked Extreme version (which is more expensive than 2 Woodcrests, I think, or close to it). 4 cores will be Apple's way of defining the Mac Pro. And the rest of the lines will be dual core.

In January or so, the top of the line Mac Pro can go dual-quad core with the quad-core processor coming out after Woodcrest, but the low and mid end will be quad-core from this July to whenever Apple can fit a quad-core single chip in the iMac (obviously with speed bumps)

(note that all of the preceding was educated guessing)

Well, now, it doesn't say much about your argument when you start swearing (even with substitute swear words) to make your point. Reference CDs should be copied to hard drive for the fastest access anyway, which negates your fast-access argument. No CD drive can match a 7200rpm SATA drive for access time. And most of us aren't so caught up in games that we desperately need to start them up instantly. Wait, wasn't this an argument about "pros"? How much gaming do pros do? You're coming up with a lot of "this could be useful" scenarios, but nothing compelling.


Maybe not all of us care about the "look." Maybe we just don't want something huge, heavy and unwieldy.


Again, check my earlier posts and you'll see I've complained about the dearth of USB ports on Macs. They're cheap to add, take up little space and are useful for a great many people, unlike a second optical drive. I know I've got printer, camera, PDA, graphics tablet, keyboard, mouse, Shuttlepro and several other devices hooked up to mine. Other people won't need quite so many but certainly more than the 3 on the PowerMac and 4 on the Mini. (BTW, how is it that someone who supposedly knows so much about Apples doesn't know that USB keyboards usually include two USB ports, so plugging the mouse into one still leaves another available, for no net loss of ports?) I don't expect Apple to give us 20 or so just to suit me, but seeing as how some of the cheapest PC motherboards have 8, I wouldn't mind if they matched that.


In point of fact, you may notice that I did suggest getting rid of all but one PCI/PCIe slot (in addition to any that may be necessary for the graphics card). PCI slots really aren't that useful anymore, even for pros. If Apple adds enough USB ports, you won't need a USB card. Or you could always get a hub. Not the best solution, but it's out there for those who need it. What else would you need PCI for? Pro audio card? USB 2.0 versions exist. Video capture card? That's so 20th century. Either you use a USB or Firewire device that has plenty of bandwidth for capping broadcast video, or if you're shooting your own stuff on HD camcorders, the Firewire port is all you need to get the data in for editing.


You do know you're not supposed to do that? PCs shouldn't be placed on the floor because then you'll get all that wonderful dust sucked in by the fans, whereupon they'll build up on internal components and reduce heat dissipation. BTW, above, you gripe about "three ugly Firewire enclosures" on top of your G5. If it's all under your desk, why do you care how ugly they are?

My guess would be the new Mac Pro uses Intel's Glidewell workstation platform and the Woodcrest chips. According to this article, Glidewell uses the Green Creek memory controller hub and PCI-E-only for graphics. I have no idea how many slots will be 16-lane or 8-lane. Don't confuse Bensley with Glidewell because they are not the same.

Green Creek would use a 1333 MHz FSB for each processor. Glidewell is made for twin CPU sockets so if Apple wants to use one platform and processor type for the Mac Pro, all models would be twin duos. That means Woodcrest (Xeon 5100 series) across the board. I can't really see Apple using two entirely different platforms for the Mac Pro.

A Quad 3 GHz system would be mighty fast and powerful. I'd hope for 4 drive bays using a pair of SATA-2 buses.

Unlike the Quad G5, the 3 GHz Mac Pro won't need liquid cooling. Apple can save some money there and it's probably also cost effective for Intel to be designing the mobos. Let's hope the Mac Pro's pricing will be close to existing PM pricing but I suspect it'll be a bit more.

I think the logic is that if you're copying a DVD, rather than waiting for the DVD to copy all the way to the Hard Disk, you can start writing while still reading, which saves some work. So while the Hard Drive method does work faster, the dual-DVD drive way does less work. That said, I also think it's pretty useless.

I too want more USB ports. Headset, printer, iPod, and already I can't fit all of them on my iBook. I hope for 4-5, especially since they don't take up that much room, and there are a lot more USB peripherals than Firewire.

I'd like (in terms of ports)
4-5 USB ports
1 FW 800
2-3 FW 400
2 x gigabit Ethernet

This assumes that a person likes the current Apple desktop keyboard, and as you say, the Bluetooth keyboard doesn't count. I don't like the key's feel on those keyboards.

One thing left out of your argument for no card slots is that sometimes standards advance. A three year old consumer Mac wouldn't be able to take full advantage of a current iPod, but I can plug one card into my eight year old Xeon (which still sees daily use) and it's good to go.

Sometimes, ports fail. My G5 ethernet jack died last week, if it weren't for a spare network card in a slot, I wouldn't be able to control when the unit can go to be repaired. Sure, the latest ones have dual ethernet but I'm not replacing computers at the drop of a hat.

External devices add a lot of cable mess that could have been avoided with an internal device. For each device expected to operate externally, that means two cables, one cable for power, another for data, when some of those devices could be tucked away internally with no external cabling at all. I have thirteen cables connected to my G5 right now.

It isn't just for optical drives. This gives the opportunity to add a hot removable HD rack for a 3.5" HD. Or a tape backup. for those who would want a Blu-Ray, and an HD DVD drive, it would also be useful.

Yes. Dragon Burn does that.

Good one!

There are plenty of other USB keyboards from other manufacturers. And pretty much every one I've seen has USB ports. The only recent, decent model I know of that doesn't have one is the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000.


Read it again. I did not argue for no slots. I argued for one free slot over and above what the video card uses, which for the vast majority of users, even pro users, is enough. Indeed, there are more than a few pro users who don't have any PCI slots and don't miss them. Those are the ones who own 17" Powerbook/Macbook Pros as their sole system.


OTOH, it can be fairly argued that external has its own advantages, which for some people quite possibly outweigh the clutter of a few wires. How about easy portability and installation on multiple machines? Removing, installing or transporting exposed, static-sensitive PCIe cards is not for the faint of heart and certainly can't be done while a machine is on or even sleeping. Anybody can hot-plug a USB or Firewire device.


So none of this can be done with USB 2.0 or Firewire? A hot-swappable rack will still make the OS complain if you just pull it without ejecting/unmounting the volume first, same as with a USB/Firewire drive.

That's not the point. you seem to think that the only way we should be allowed to add anything is externally. Not so.

I have two machines on the floor, under my desk. And, no, they don't get full of dirt.

I have connected to the dual G5, a 4 bay SCSI case with one CD-RW, and three hot drives, a 4 bay Firewire 400 case with one DVD-RW, and two hot drives, and one multifunction Firewire, USB 2, multi card slot reader, a 2 bay Firewire 800 case with two hot drives, a portable PATA to SATA case, and, finally, a 2 bay hot drive SATA case.

I still would like a 5.25" bay available in the machine.

If you think my system is nuts, I can direct you to guys with systems that make mine look simple! And it doesn't include the other devices connected.

oops, i messed up 5100 with 5000 ...

another 15 days to go!...

GREATEST CPU design after Pentium 4 introduced in Mac Pro, GAME on!.

What makes the Pentium 4 the greatest CPU design in your opinion?

absolut - on the Pro Video side @least (Apple's recently claimed 1/2 million editors using FCStudio) just by itself, there are a lot of users who can do with a decent amount of internal drive bays & expect expandibility/future-proofing via expansion slots (well, @least future-safety :P) - as well as the ability to upgrade to workstation-class graphics on the higher end of this group (gimme my dual 16x & SLI, dangit!)

this is not just a "can do with" either: it's something we EXPECT from a $2000 $3000 dollar machine from Apple, especially when an equivalent PC case & mobo we know to be fairly inexpensive (relatively speaking)

my 2004 G5 2 x 2 is an awesome machine (still!) but the lack of drive bays is an unfortunate joke adding a Sonnet 3-bay bracket as I need more space internal bay got filled with a 300GB Maxtor a week after buying, and I don't want even more externals spread out around here when they SHOULD be able to be INSIDE the beast!

an *awesome* option (and a really attractive option to potential midrange Pro switchers - ie: the smaller film, video & design shops - who's biggest gripe about the Mac I hear tends to be the machine's short desk-life) would also be the same mobo across the line, with 2 SOCKETS & 1 entry-speed Woodcrest (option to add 2nd chip) on the low-end and 2 x the best Intel can supply at the high end processor upgradeability really enhances the value (ie: life) of the machine and saves on the development of multiple concurrent mobo designs as has been the case through the G5 era

it really would be *insanely great*TM if for once & for all Apple settled the debate between:

"i'm a pro user who needs a pro box (ie: 6 x 3.5" drive bays, 4 PCIe slots for expansion in addition DUAL 16x PCIe for SLI, the workx - for $2000 $4000 - depending on processor(s)"

and:

"i'm a devout fan/gamer/enty-level design&media maker who'd like a decent mac with a bit of expansion (ie: smaller case, an extra drive bay & video-on-a-card for well under $2000)"

by actually having a Pro Mac that's well into workstation territory (this means the case as well ;-)) and the midrange headless Mac (a Mac midi? ) so many users/fans/potential switchers have been cryin out for...

listen up, Apple! puhleeze?

According to my "trusted" sources....

Employing Intel's "Conroe" Core 2 Duo/Core 2 Extreme processors, there will be 2, 4, and 8-core models available with DDR2-800 memory, multiple PCI Express x16-SLI graphics cards... Four-way SLI with high-end nVIDIA and ATi graphics cards is going to bring the Mac gamer to the forefront of performance in a very big way.

Link

Oh, I can't go through with it. The link is to MOSR. Sorry, the made me post this.

That's using nVidia's new "Reality Engine" to boost Steve's RDF circutry added to each unit right?

arrh. the ecstacy. the agony. we can only dream on*
(even if the multi-Conroe fantasy were possible )

*think that's how the MOSR theme-tune goes....

Say a pro wants to capture HD-SDI data and save it to Xserve RAID. Oops, one slot isn't enough.

Come, now. You have a full broadcast suite with at least $15,000 of SDI and Fibre Channel cards alone (and probably several times that), not to mention an Xserve RAID, and they couldn't add another Mac just to handle the capture? Maybe every Mac Pro should have quad processors, as well, since a tiny segment of users need all that power. As somebody noted, Apple once didn't pigeonhole all "Pro" users into the "I need everything but the kitchen sink in my tower" camp. The Quad G5 motherboard is very different from the Dual G5 motherboard. If they can engineer both, they can engineer a smaller motherboard and case for non-video pros which doesn't have too many superfluous features that we're forced to pay for just because we need more power than an iMac provides.

I can't argue that. you are correct to a great extent.

Biut there should be machines for both extremes. I wholeheartedly endorse a one slot machine. But I also would very much want one that is much more expandable. There are video solutions that fit within one machine. Not all production studios are big enough to afford that bank of equipment either. The independent person is beginning to do this work, but needs a less expensive solution than a fully equiped facility.

How do you get the data from one machine to the next? I'm not sure dual gigE can handle HD-SDI, and why require adding a second machine when any reasonable observer would see that a single machine could do the same job better? Why make the pro product even less competitive than it already is?

I really don't see why card slots are undesirable such that there is a merit in removing any the pro machine. Card slots aren't expensive, nor do they take excessive amounts of space. I don't see how offering fewer slots for a lesser Quad machine would cut size and a cut price. The current Quad is competing against the HP xw9300 and I'm not certain the G5 Quad is necessarily competitive against it other than it runs OS X and it looks nicer.

The other day someone was saying how the Mac Pro's won't have SLI or Crossfire or the like. This image from the latest new york conference that intel showed off conroe with proves that intel DOES have something like that:



I guarantee apple will have some sort of dual pci-express x16 deal in their mac pros. As you can see it IS an intel motherboard (look at the intel stamp by the cpu).

You are missing a bit of the equation here. The motherboard is the easy bit, it's getting decent drivers from ATI or NVidia for these solutions that'll be the sticker. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess no on this one, if only because of the huge cost/performance that really only the heavy gamers that don't so much use Macs anyway will go for.

Will it work in BootCamp? Likely.

SLI wasn't created for games. Sure it benefits games but the main reason SLI was made was for workstations to do modeling quicker... ultimately real time rendering. When I think of dual pci-exp x16, I think of a nice semi-rendered model being worked with in maya and cinema. That is the whole point. There aren't many gamers out there that will go buy two quadros or two 7950's and stick them in a machine... that'd be 1k to 4k just in graphics cards.

The MacPro is aimed at "Pro" users so it needs to come stock with a "Pro" video card (not that stinking 6600 that can't handle Aperture) and room for an internal RAID 5 configuration.

I akso think there's a enormous hole in Apple's pricing. There's a gap of $1100 between the top iMac and a PowerMac with a 20" screen. That hole is begging to be filled with something that will appeal to anyone who wants some expansion, but doesn't need that internal RAID 5, dual Ethernet, pair of 30" displays, etc.

I think Apple needs to come out with a real media center computer to fit in between the iMac and MacPro. In other words bring back the pizza box or cube size comptuer. It would have a desktop processor (Conroe), four RAM slots, replaceable video card, 3.5" HD, full size optical drive and, to stop the whiners, one PCI-e slot.

For me such a design would be the perfect home computer and perfect media center. The 3.5" HD and tray loading DVD-RW would be cheaper than those in the Mac Mini while offering improved performance. Having a replaceable video card and PCI-e slot would make this machine appeal to gamers and anyone else in the majority who don't buy a new Mac every 18 months.

Price for this mythical perfect computer: US$1499. My credit card is waiting.

Wouldn't you want a RAID 0 configuration for a workstation? Or at the least RAID 1 if you want redundancy. RAID 5 is simply going to slow you down because of the need to process parity read/writes.

Better graphics are a must. Doesn't need to be 7950 GX2's or anything but something beefier than 6600. How about Nvidia 7000 series?

Long as it's greater than 7600... just a beefed up 6600.

If it's going to be a media center, it should be the same 17" wide form factor as most other home theater gear such as a cable box and reciever / amp. A cube won't work well, but a pizza box could work.

I'm no expert on this but if you want to be able to use Blu-Ray and HD-DVD drives in the future you will need the Nvidia 700 series:


Source: http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-06-10/#5596

So I guess this also mean new Cinema Displays

Oh and btw I don't know if you guys know this yet but Intel is working on water cooling very similar to the ones used in the G5's http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-06-10/#5596

You are confusing the physical PCIe slot and the electrical PCIe lanes.
Look at the G5. It has four x16 slots, one with 16 lanes, one with 8 lanes and two with 4 lanes.
In (nearly all) SLI solutions the x16 slot with 16 lanes is divided into two x16 slots with 8 lanes each.
This is what you see on that picture.

Many many many people have been wanting this for a very very long time. It's an old conversation:

1 CPU
2 memory slots
1 PCIe x16 slot (AGP in older days)
1 PCIe x2 slot (PCI in older days)
1 5.25" external bay for optical
1 3.5" internal bay for hard drive
Usual accoutrements of ports
$999-$1499 for standard config range

So far nothing.


I have no idea what a home theater PC or media center computer is, but if it's an entertainment electronic, it needs to be about $500 with DSL/Cable modems built-in, an HDMI/DVI port, a nifty remote control, audio ports, a gigantic hard drive (250 MB?), and easy access to an Apple movie store with lots of movies. DVD maybe.

Everything else is a computer.

Originally posted by futuretheory9
I dare say that at those speeds in a dual dual-core configuration, adobe apps will run tolerably, if not just as fast as mid-range G5 under Rosetta. Well at least creative suite...After Effects is not happy in Rosetta at all. This is a very painful wait for all involved, really sucks if you need build a creative team with workstations right now, what the heck do you buy? Just can't justify buying 6 G5s now, but there's also work to be done.

Apple would be doing it's creative pro customers a huge favor and probably make some money buy offering current G5 inventory on a 1 year lease or have a buy back promotion so that we can get some work done with a powerPC machine but not break the bank with a move to the clearly superior Intel machines in a year when Adobe has their products up to speed.


This is so far in this forum the most sensible and intelligent response to the issue of Adobe CS2 use (and by proxy Macromedia Studio8 ) by professionals in this time of Intel transition.

You have well encapsulated the challenges facing those who need to work with Mac Adobe/Macromedia in this time of transition. Potatochop and Dreamweaver not so much a challenge but Flash 8 and certainly AfterEffects in Rosetta might be too slow with Intel machines currently, and a Quad Mac Pro Intel may be too expensive to be worth it when one can get by with a dual G5 PowerMac.

The 1 year G5 lease and buy back etc. ideas are absolutely brilliant. Perfect for riding out the transition until Universal Adobe/Macromedia CS3. I would say option to go 1.5 year lease may be needed just to play it safe. Remember that Adobe CS3 is a *major* undertaking as it has to incorporate a lot of Macromedia products in a sensible way. The integration may not be super tight but they still need time to figure out and deliver on the combined Adobe/Macromedia CS3 Suite: WinXP/2000 and Universal Intel/PPC.

eBay is your best solution right now to get G5s and then sell them when you're ready to go Mac Pro Adobe CS3