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Apple's Mac Pro to sport twin engines - Page 3

post #81 of 216
Apple will likely have an Apple-ized version of the typical Greencreek board for the Mac Pro. Ie, it won't have any legacy stuff, will have limited expansion, and will have some of Apple's unique features like Firewire 800. I wouldn't be surprised with a unique cooling features to keep the computer quiet.

As I recall, the Greencreek northbridge supports either one PCIe x16 slot with x16 signaling or 2 PCIe x8 slots with x8 signaling (or 2 PCI x16 physical slots with x8 signaling). The southbridge has lots of x4 and x2 PCIe capability.

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Tyan Tempest i5000XT (S2696)



Processor
Dual LGA771 sockets
Supports up to two Intel® Xeon®
"Dempsey / Woodcrest" processors
Dual-Core, 1333/1066/667MHz FSB; VRD 11.0

Chipset
Intel® "Greencreek" MCH + ESB2-M chipset
Winbond 82627EHF Super I/O chip

Memory
Eight [8] 240-pin DDR2 FBDIMM sockets
Four memory channels; supports ECC DIMMs
Supports maximum of 32/16GB of DDR2-533/667

Expansion Slots
Two (2) PCI-E x16 slots (one x4 sig. from EBS2-M)
One (1) PCI-E x8 slot (x4 sig. from EBS2-M)
Two (2) PCI-X 133/100MHz slots from EBS2-M
One (1) PCI 32-bit 33MHz slot
Total of six expansion slots

Integrated I/O
One 9-pin 16550 UART serial port
Six USB 2.0 ports (4 at rear; 2 via headers)
PS/2 mouse and keyboard connectors
Six standard SATA2 connectors
Two RJ-45 10/100/1000 LAN ports
One IDE and one floppy ports
Eight SAS ports

System Management
SMSC EMC 6W201 Hardware Monitor
CPU thermal & voltage monitor support
Five (5) fan headers (4-pin configuration)

Integrated Audio Controller
HDA link; SPDIF in/out port in rear
RealTek ALC880 controller (High-Def. Audio)
Stacked Mic-in/Line-in/Line-out rear ports
Front panel audio header
CD-in, Aux-in headers (4-pin configuration)
\t
Integrated SATA Controller
Six (6) SATA 2.0 ports running at 3.0Gb/s
RAID 0, 1, and 10 supported

Integrated SAS Controller
LSI 1068E SAS controller with PCI-E x4 interface
Eight SAS ports

Integrated FireWire (1394a) Controller
TI TSB43AB22 1394a controller
1394a channel for rear (connector)
1394a channel for front (header)

Integrated LAN Controllers
Intel® Gigabit from ESB2 (w/ dual pors "Gilgal")
- ASF 2.0; two RJ-45 ports with LED

BIOS
Phoenix BIOS® on 8Mbit Flash ROM
Supports APM 1.2, ACPI 2.0
Serial Console Redirect
PXE via Ethernet, USB device boot
PnP, DMI 2.0, WfM 2.0 Power Management
User-configurable H/W monitoring
Auto-configuration of hard disk types
Multiple boot options
48-bit LBA support

Form Factor
SSI / Extened ATX footprint (12" x 13")

Power
EPS12V / SSI (24 + 8 + 4 pin) power connectors

Regulatory
FCC Class B (Declaration of Conformity)
European Community CE (DoC); BSMI
post #82 of 216
Originally posted by emig647
I'd be willing to bet intel has something in the works for this. Otherwise that's a serious feature missing from their chipset that allt he other chipsets have. Sure they could promote the 7950 g2... but everyone else can promote 2 7950 g2's. *shrugs* I don't really care personally. But I konw many professionals who do.



In PC-land news is that 2 7950g2s (quad SLI) is not officially supported by nVidia. Something to do with the bridging the two cards which individually have a bridge in there already.

Anyway if you wanted 2 7950g2s, it would really only be for gaming PC titles at really high resolutions. Otherwise for Mac Pros you'd just go Quadro. For those seriously into Mac gaming, a single high-end 7series nVidia card would be enough.
post #83 of 216
Originally posted by JeffDM
....Dual processors used to be one of the selling points of the Power Macs line over the cheaper models, but nearly all of the consumer units have dual processors now. That's why I almost expect the next revision to sport two quad models....



This is a very convincing argument that we'll see only TWO main Quad Mac Pro models.
post #84 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by JeffDM
....Dual processors used to be one of the selling points of the Power Macs line over the cheaper models, but nearly all of the consumer units have dual processors now. That's why I almost expect the next revision to sport two quad models....



This is a very convincing argument that we'll see only TWO main Quad Mac Pro models.

I think that this is really two cores, not two processors. A big difference.
post #85 of 216
Originally posted by JeffDM
Despite Apple's implied assertions, form doesn't fully follow function on these things. There is a contradiction that an empthy drive bay that people might not use is a waste of space, but somehow the "handles" and "feet" on the corner of cheese grater that nobody can use isn't a waste of space. At best, the handles and feet only to harken back to the previous Powermacs which were kind of a fruity addition for those models too. The G5s case make it worse because they aren't useful as handles unless you wear gloves or put rags around them so they don't pinch the hands when moving it around. The feet don't help me in trucking them around either. My network port went out and I'll have to have a cart or dolly so I can haul my PowerMac accross the mall parking lit to the Apple store, the feet will probably complicate my choice of cart.



I liked the bottom handles of the G4 and G5 because that means that only the handles were scraping the bottom of the floor, rather than the whole bottom surface of the tower...!

Also, I liked the top handles to move it around (the G5 handles are not that bad, IMO) and as (sacrilege!) a nice kind of footrest under the desk, those G4 and G5 top handles....
post #86 of 216
Originally posted by melgross
I think that this is really two cores, not two processors. A big difference.



Yes, I think JeffDM means almost all consumer Macintels have two cores now. And when we talk of Quad Mac Pros, of course that will be two processors with two cores per processor. And it's clear the Quad Mac Pros will only be Woodcrest as apparently Conroe machines cannot have multiple processors. Only one processor with two cores.

Yay! Melgross is back!! Where the HELL were you all this while? (See AppleOutsider thread on your dissapearance)

Also, your post count has suffered. I OWN you now in terms of post count
post #87 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman

I liked the bottom handles of the G4 and G5 because that means that only the handles were scraping the bottom of the floor, rather than the whole bottom surface of the tower...![/B]

What touches the floor are four tiny skid pads, the same as with any other tower. I'm not sure how the handles on the Gx towers make them more suitable as a footrest than other towers. The rounded corners on the bottom make the tower less stable and more prone to falling, so knocking them to the side can have worse consequences.
post #88 of 216
Originally posted by JeffDM
What touches the floor are four tiny skid pads, the same as with any other tower.



Not on the cheaper PC towers They don't have proper skid pads...
post #89 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by JeffDM
What touches the floor are four tiny skid pads, the same as with any other tower.



Not on the cheaper PC towers They don't have proper skid pads...

OK, then all the PC towers I've owned, and most that I've seen when I was paying attention, had skid pads over metal to floor contact. Even my first computer with a pretty cheap case had them.
post #90 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
OK, then all the PC towers I've owned, and most that I've seen when I was paying attention, had skid pads over metal to floor contact. Even my first computer with a pretty cheap case had them.

The metal feet and handles on the G5's, and the G4's, cost a lot of money to implement. Just how useful they really are for the majority of users, is something I'm skeptical about.
post #91 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I can't argue that. you are correct to a great extent.

Biut there should be machines for both extremes. I wholeheartedly endorse a one slot machine. But I also would very much want one that is much more expandable. There are video solutions that fit within one machine. Not all production studios are big enough to afford that bank of equipment either. The independent person is beginning to do this work, but needs a less expensive solution than a fully equiped facility.

Wow, there is a first time for everything. We actually agree on something for once. That independent producer sure isn't going to be buying an Xserve RAID or SDI card. I think there's a serious misconception on the part of some here, including JeffDM, that I'm saying all Pro machines should be downsized. I have no problems with the top of the line machines needing to be humongous. But what about your average Photoshop maven who needs more speed than an iMac provides but wouldn't need more than one PCI slot in a million years? Surely the heavy duty video users can afford to buy the top of the line. Indeed, let those buyers have six slots, like the old 9500 (which also had an amazing 12 RAM slots). They're willing to pay for it. Now that would help distinguish the Pro line from the iMacs. All Pros could have four cores to beat the iMacs, but the best model could have internal expansion galore to distinguish it from the "low end" Pro models.
post #92 of 216
I'm wondering if Apple will redesign the PowerMac towers in light of this transition. Up to this point we've seen nothing more than Intel integration into all current product designs. But the PowerMac was originally designed around the requirements of the G5 processor, a chassis enclosing nine fans, with a large front and back perforated metal facade for direct airflow. Since these Conroe/Woodcrest processors run cooler than the G5 with less power consumption, I suspect Apple may give its towers a makeover now that they are free of this G5's limitations.
post #93 of 216
The PowerMac G5 case must be the enclosure that has seen no changes for the longest time (or does the iBook get that award?)

Every other enclosure has seen at least a few changes. Sure the El-Capitan and its derivatives case was with us from the G3s to the G4s...but they multiple changes in that time span.
post #94 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
The PowerMac G5 case must be the enclosure that has seen no changes for the longest time (or does the iBook get that award?)

The white iBook design was introduced on May 1st, 2001. It was, however, altered slightly in late 2002 to replace some glossy components with opaque once, slightly alter the color and replace the typeface of "iBook" from Apple Garamond to Myriad. Finally, in late 2003, the iBook G4 caused some design changes, such as the move from a tray drive to a slot-in one.

Still, even the (white) MacBook's overall design is extremely similar to what it was with the May '01 iBook "Dual USB".

So yes, the iBook wins.
post #95 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
But there should be machines for both extremes. I wholeheartedly endorse a one slot machine. But I also would very much want one that is much more expandable. There are video solutions that fit within one machine. Not all production studios are big enough to afford that bank of equipment either.

The independent person is beginning to do this work, but needs a less expensive solution than a fully equiped facility.


absolutely - particularly the last line


some pre-amble (hopefully not too far off thread):

for some 10 years (since the 2nd half of the 90's) there's been a desktop video revolution - comparable to the desktop design revolution of the late 80's / early 90's

Apple's been a big PART of this with FCP & FCS (1/2 a million users and counting) however, unlike the DTP revolution which really was started by the Mac & Adobe Postscript, Apple this time is *just* (ironic emph.) a big player & strong influence in a developing market that includes a lot of PC solutions

Apple has always had extraordinary edge over & influence on the world desktop computer industry remarkable for a company with a highest ever market share of around 10% (ie: back when the Mac pioneered the desktop graphics revolution), down as far as around 2% (ie: during the mid-to-late-90's doldrums, when cheaper PC hardware running Windoze versions of formerly Mac-only apps from Photoshop to Quark became an option), currently heading back towards 5% and hopefully higher...

iPod, iLife, the digital hub et al. are great in the consumer sector, but...

a recent article in the Wall Str Journal (OMG) highlighted Apple's biggest issue as a company throughout its history: that while it has often (almost always, in fact) been an industry leader, with pioneering products, developing new applications and markets it has had serious trouble KEEPING those markets

AppleMatters had an insightful article some months back on why Apple hopefully won't make the same mistakes with the iPod/iTunes success as it did with the Mac itself stagnation & expensive proprietry hardware during the 90's being the main ones i think the wave of innovation following his Steveness' return & Apple's come-back are indicative that they won't make the same mistakes...

there have over the last 20 years been many valid reasons to pay "Mac-Tax" on Apple as well as 3rd-party Mac hardware, from cutting-edge applications (DTP in the 80's, DTVideo in the 90's) to sometimes-superior proprietry hardware (eg: 68000 32-bit processor in 1984, introduction of SCSI wayyy back in 1985; NuBus before PCI in the PC world - the best desktop graphics were on Mac back then with Radius cards; PowerPC which was well ahead of x86 from the beginning through the 601, 604, G3 era - only being overtaken when Moto dropped the ball with G4 development - back in the lead with G5 for a while, at least...)

however, with IBM dropping the same ball & the move to Intel - the gloves are off: it really now is about OS X & Apple's awesome software vs. Windows on similar Intel hardware


back to the thread: the independent person/small 2-5 person shop is doing a lot of Pro video & motion graphic work these days. FCS with Motion is a superb solution it'll keep a lot of us die-hard fans around for a long time

however, there are plenty of the above users (including many colleagues where i'm based) who are happily using Adobe Video suite on Windoze (Premiere, After Effects & Encore vs. Final Cut Pro, Motion & DVD SPro) - many of the above find Mac + FCS + AFX7 very appealing but the value & desktop-life of hardware (expandibility, lack of processor upgradeability, etc.) is the major deterrent

to retain & increase the Pro creative market share (not to mention win back a lot of users who went peecee in the 90's), Apple's got to offer fast, market-competitive Pro boxes with serious motherboards & lots of space for internal drives (ie: like the 9500, 9600, even the G4 el Capitan case)

yes, the higher-end video facility will typically have a group of G5's as workstations (and the budget to swap them out for new machines when there's a significant performance improvement) with an Xserve installation in the background

but the smaller 1-5 person shop (a large and still growing market which Apple has helped develop) will want a couple of kick-ass machines with plenty of expandibility ie: the ability to install SATA-based RAID internally and go up to a couple of TB within one machine, not to mention adding a second GPU for SLI/CrossFire - an upgradeable processor would seal this deal for many potential Pro switchers... (and tho the extreme tech-minded will love to tinker with ZIF tools, most of these will be delighted to bring the machine into an Apple store and pay for installation & a generous mark-up on the chip price)

in the higher end of this market (and as these smaller design/video shops grow in time as well) the dual 16x PCIe is essential to make the Mac a serious 3D design platform as well, not to mention give Shake the real hardware muscle it needs to not only contend with the likes of Discreet's Edit but start eating into the lower-end of the Flame market...

with SGI currently in the red, there's never been a riper time...

so, Apple - a biiig Pro Box with a *highly* expandible line from 1 x Woodcrest (with a spare socket) through to 2 x fastest available, from $2000 $4000, but all with the same case & mobo (6 x 3.5"bays, plenty of RAM & PCIe slots) will go down really well in a market that's felt a bit neglected of late... not to mention win (pun shamelessly intended) many more Pro switchers...

and, yes - a 21st century mid-range cube or pizza-box, a Mac midi, with video on one PCIe card and a spare for expansion, a range from $1000 $2000 (entry level CPU & GPU to top-of-the-line Conroe & an X1600), would be awesome for the midrange user / student or entry-level video&media user/switcher... (or anyone who can't bring themselves to the idea of a *disposable* 17 or 20" LCD monitor)
post #96 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
[i]Anyway if you wanted 2 7950g2s, it would really only be for gaming PC titles at really high resolutions. Otherwise for Mac Pros you'd just go Quadro. For those seriously into Mac gaming, a single high-end 7series nVidia card would be enough.

*yells* I don't want SLI or Crossfire or dual pci-e cards for gaming!!! *spits on games* hehe.

It's funny, everyone immediately jumps on the gaming bandwagon when sli is brought up. I want it for modeling and real time rendering on those models i'm working with. Why can't anyone see how much more beneficial it is to have this stuff in the studio as opposed to adding 30fps on your games *rolls eyes*.

 

 

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post #97 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by moloko
and, yes - a 21st century mid-range cube

With Steve apparently never having gotten over his NeXT phase, that would be great. It's obvious that he still loves cubes, what with the newest NYC Apple Store having one as an entrance. And the Macbook has just brought in black as the new, um, black. So why not something that looks almost exactly like the original NeXT Cube, 12" on each side and black? That was so far ahead of its time, with no floppy drive and only one optical drive as removable media, giving it a clean exterior that would mesh well with current Apple models. You can't tell me Apple's engineers couldn't squeeze four HD bays and a couple of PCIe slots into that form factor. Heck, with a little imagination, you could pack six bays in there (say three vertically on edge on each side of the optical bay, with the PCI slots below the optical drive, which could let this thing be as little as 8" tall). Add black anodized versions of the aluminum Cinema Displays, and the Cube system of the 80s would be back!
post #98 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by Kolchak
With Steve apparently never having gotten over his NeXT phase, that would be great.

...no doubt Steve Jobs is fond of distinctive form factors, from the original Mac (skip a few generations of above-average beige boxes in the Sculley to Amelio years - tho NeXT did look awesome for that time ) to 3 generations of ever-cooler iMacs (since his return to Apple...)

Quote:
You can't tell me Apple's engineers couldn't squeeze four HD bays and a couple of PCIe slots into that form factor. Heck, with a little imagination, you could pack six bays in there (say three vertically on edge on each side of the optical bay, with the PCI slots below the optical drive, which could let this thing be as little as 8" tall).

...tho the footnotes of Apple history are also full of the conflicts between Steve's ideal concepts and engineering reality... (the RDF has also been known to fuel fans to acts of insanity... )


...here, I'm rooting for a genuine Pro Box for Pro's (I dig my giant cheese-grater - goes GR8 with my studio aesthetic - but just wish i could pack it with more protein )

(AND a new midrange machine in an ever-cool & compact (but think midi not mini) new case - as ever, a computer for human beings, but with comparable value & shelf-life to the Wintel world...)
post #99 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by moloko
(skip a few generations of above-average beige boxes in the Sculley to Amelio years

Am I the only one who thought that the beige-done-right look of the first PMG3 towers was actually pretty appealing?

David
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post #100 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by iMacfan
Am I the only one who thought that the beige-done-right look of the first PMG3 towers was actually pretty appealing?

David

Yah I think you're alone on that one buddy

 

 

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post #101 of 216
> Am I the only one who thought that the beige-done-right look of the first PMG3 towers was actually pretty appealing?

That design originated with the PowerMac 8600 and 9600, and it was definitely ahead of its time from an accessibility standpoint. The side popped off, the PCI slots were immediately visible, the drives were all there in a tray that flipped up to reveal the rest of the logic board including the RAM slots. The only hassle was threading new ribbon cable if you ever wanted to change the type of a drive inside (IDE, UW-SCSI). I still have an 8600 and although it's beige I think it looks more advanced than the B&W G3 next to it.

Should Steve Jobs or anybody who knows him ever see this here's the reality: I have been a loyal Macintosh owner since 1992, but Apple didn't see a penny from six of my eight Mac purchases.

I will never buy an all-in-one desktop or a completely unexpandable repackaged notebook like the mini. I don't need the mobility of a notebook and honestly don't like working on one. That leaves only the tower, but I'm not a pro user and can't justify the cost. Therefore I buy used towers.

I really want to buy a new Intel based Mac so I can finally get rid of the beige PC next to my G5, but Apple doesn't make a single machine that appeals to me.

So Steve, when you release that pizza box for the bloggers, the gamers, the rich people who want a 750GB HD hooked up to their home theaters, and all the rest of us, make sure there's a real desktop processor, 3.5" HD and two slots for video and other cards. You'll also start a really nice trend of getting me to buy new Macs.
post #102 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by emig647
I'd be willing to bet intel has something in the works for this. Otherwise that's a serious feature missing from their chipset that allt he other chipsets have. Sure they could promote the 7950 g2... but everyone else can promote 2 7950 g2's. *shrugs* I don't really care personally. But I konw many professionals who do.



In PC-land news is that 2 7950g2s (quad SLI) is not officially supported by nVidia. Something to do with the bridging the two cards which individually have a bridge in there already.

Anyway if you wanted 2 7950g2s, it would really only be for gaming PC titles at really high resolutions. Otherwise for Mac Pros you'd just go Quadro. For those seriously into Mac gaming, a single high-end 7series nVidia card would be enough.

Do you think anybody is going to be playing Mac games on their Woodcrest PCI-e rig that can boot into Windows? I know I'm going to be a pretty heavy Boot Camper on my Mac Pro.
post #103 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Do you think anybody is going to be playing Mac games on their Woodcrest PCI-e rig that can boot into Windows? I know I'm going to be a pretty heavy Boot Camper on my Mac Pro.

*bangs head on desk* *bangs everyone else's head on the desk that keeps jumping to the game conclusion*

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Is everyone mocking me? We can all agree that the mac is NOT 1 thing..... and that is a gaming rig.

If you would read back, you would NOTICE that I was referring to the Mac Pro being used for 3d modeling. Where SLI TRULY SHINES.

Next person that says anything about SLI and gaming and referring to my post, i'm ignoring. I could care less about SLI and games and many many mac professionals could care less about games. There is an urgent need for it in the 3d modeling area though.

 

 

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post #104 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by moloko
so, Apple - a biiig Pro Box with a *highly* expandible line from 1 x Woodcrest (with a spare socket) through to 2 x fastest available, [/B]

Heh -- I love when wishful thinking takes over, as it so often does here. I don't think you're ever going to see an official processor expansion/upgrade path from Apple, they make too damn much money from that jump to two sockets. Although if you're lucky they'll slip in the BIOS support for an unoffical CPU upgrade path. If you're lucky.

And shipping a single Woodcrest on a dual motherboard makes no financial sense ... the Conroe would be cheaper and 99% of buyers would never fill that second CPU slot anyway.
post #105 of 216
dupe
post #106 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by IntlHarvester
Heh -- I love when wishful thinking takes over, as it so often does here. I don't think you're ever going to see an official processor expansion/upgrade path from Apple, they make too damn much money from that jump to two sockets.

A retail install of Leopard will work fine with different processors, probably. Especially since Leopard will be out around the same time as the upgraded Mac Pros. Apple doesn't need to support it officially, but it'll work. Some guy dropped a Merom into a dual-core Mini and it worked fine apparently.
post #107 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by ZachPruckowski
A retail install of Leopard will work fine with different processors, probably. Especially since Leopard will be out around the same time as the upgraded Mac Pros. Apple doesn't need to support it officially, but it'll work. Some guy dropped a Merom into a dual-core Mini and it worked fine apparently.

That was unusual on Apple's part. They didn't offer a socket in the G4 mini. I don't know if they ever offered a PowerMac Gx with an empty second socket, even though they could have easily done so. Supposedly the dual socket G5 machines were upgradeable, but I really haven't heard of anyone doing that.
post #108 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by Kolchak
Wow, there is a first time for everything. We actually agree on something for once. That independent producer sure isn't going to be buying an Xserve RAID or SDI card. I think there's a serious misconception on the part of some here, including JeffDM, that I'm saying all Pro machines should be downsized. I have no problems with the top of the line machines needing to be humongous. But what about your average Photoshop maven who needs more speed than an iMac provides but wouldn't need more than one PCI slot in a million years? Surely the heavy duty video users can afford to buy the top of the line. Indeed, let those buyers have six slots, like the old 9500 (which also had an amazing 12 RAM slots). They're willing to pay for it. Now that would help distinguish the Pro line from the iMacs. All Pros could have four cores to beat the iMacs, but the best model could have internal expansion galore to distinguish it from the "low end" Pro models.

I agree more than you think, I just don't always post.

That's the point. there needs to be a range. I've been saying that myself for quite a while. I started with the 950, then the 9500, the 9600, several G4 towers, and a dual G5. We seem to have gone backwards. Apple is producing what seems to be mid-range machines at a high range price, and is ignoring both ends of the range.
post #109 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
*yells* I don't want SLI or Crossfire or dual pci-e cards for gaming!!! *spits on games* hehe.

It's funny, everyone immediately jumps on the gaming bandwagon when sli is brought up. I want it for modeling and real time rendering on those models i'm working with. Why can't anyone see how much more beneficial it is to have this stuff in the studio as opposed to adding 30fps on your games *rolls eyes*.

Because, sadly, games seem to rule the graphics card market.
post #110 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by Kolchak
[BYou can't tell me Apple's engineers couldn't squeeze four HD bays and a couple of PCIe slots into that form factor. Heck, with a little imagination, you could pack six bays in there (say three vertically on edge on each side of the optical bay, with the PCI slots below the optical drive, which could let this thing be as little as 8" tall). Add black anodized versions of the aluminum Cinema Displays, and the Cube system of the 80s would be back! [/B]

Sure they could, if they wanted to. Look at all of the third party solutions for doing just that. The reviews of those products say that they only raise case temp a few degrees and that's with them being right in the cpu cooling path! There's a lot of extra cooling capacity in the water cooled case. I think Apple wanted it that way, anticipating faster (and hotter) chips that never materialized. There is also a half height space for a drive on top that Apple has never used, but that others have. Again, with no penalty.
post #111 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
*bangs head on desk* *bangs everyone else's head on the desk that keeps jumping to the game conclusion*

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Is everyone mocking me? We can all agree that the mac is NOT 1 thing..... and that is a gaming rig.

If you would read back, you would NOTICE that I was referring to the Mac Pro being used for 3d modeling. Where SLI TRULY SHINES.

Next person that says anything about SLI and gaming and referring to my post, i'm ignoring. I could care less about SLI and games and many many mac professionals could care less about games. There is an urgent need for it in the 3d modeling area though.

It's true. But, don't forget that Alien and Voodoo machines, expensive beasts, are mostly bought by gamers. I've read gamers say on other sites that if the Mac does games as well as a gaming PC, they'll switch. I believe that.
post #112 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
That was unusual on Apple's part. They didn't offer a socket in the G4 mini. I don't know if they ever offered a PowerMac Gx with an empty second socket, even though they could have easily done so. Supposedly the dual socket G5 machines were upgradeable, but I really haven't heard of anyone doing that.

No, Apple never did offer a machine with an empty socket.

One reason why we never saw G5 upgrades was because the chips were always in tight supply. The upgrade companies couldn't get them at a low enough price for the market. Changing cpu's on the G5's was a bear as well.
post #113 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by Bregalad
I will never buy an all-in-one desktop or a completely unexpandable repackaged notebook like the mini.

Your loss.

Quote:
You'll also start a really nice trend of getting me to buy new Macs.

Hardly, since those people are the same ones unwilling to pay any margin whatsoever. And since they'll be able to easily upgrade single components (which, mind you, is a complete waste of money, but that doesn't stop them), which is to Apple's loss (no revenues at all), why would Apple possibly allow that?
post #114 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by iMacfan
Am I the only one who thought that the beige-done-right look of the first PMG3 towers was actually pretty appealing?

David

i did say above-average i had an 8600 years ago and the internal accessibility was great - even tho it was a beigebox it was ahead of the pack @the time, both in terms of internals and the external appearance

tend to disagree with those who blast the cheese-grater - outside & in it's beautifully designed IMHO (trust me, i'm a designer ) but pragmatically speaking it needs a lot more bays for its intended market...

the G5 line has tried to cater for too broad a range of users (as stated by others here) if Apple wants to sell more on the high-end the Pro Box has got to be Pro & a Midi machine will really sell well to the existing user base & all those contemplating the switch, but wanting more than a mini and better value/less cuteness than the iMac...
post #115 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by IntlHarvester
Heh -- I love when wishful thinking takes over, as it so often does here. I don't think you're ever going to see an official processor expansion/upgrade path from Apple, they make too damn much money from that jump to two sockets. Although if you're lucky they'll slip in the BIOS support for an unoffical CPU upgrade path. If you're lucky.

And shipping a single Woodcrest on a dual motherboard makes no financial sense ... the Conroe would be cheaper and 99% of buyers would never fill that second CPU slot anyway.

hmm. this is an extremely wishful sentiment, i admit (adjusting my tinfoil hat )

but Apple does seem to be following a long path from the proprietry/closed box for people who want a computer that doesn't ever seem like a piece of hardware, to more industry-standard hardware & better upgrade options for a newer generation of users who aren't afraid to tinker with the innards, @least a bit...

eg: from adopting PCI in the early 90's, all the way to the Intel switch itself - the last milestone in this journey... the latest promising example is the easily swappable MacBook HD i'm not a tech expert & swopping my old iBook G4 drive out is the most complex MacSurgery i've ever performed - it was a mammoth task, for me @least...

don't laugh too loud, but PC vendors from Dell to AlienWare have offered systems with common motherboards and a spare CPU slot on the lower-end for a DP upgrade at a later date. while Apple will never be a Dell (they really do represent the polar opposites of the hardware spectrum), a few value-tips could be taken that make the machines more appealing to tech-savvy users...

this is great for the ever-increasing numbers of those who make their income from their own machines and they are not the techno-phobic generation of designers Apple captured with the mac in the late 80's, but a generation who have entered an already digital design & video world...

offering a single motherboard across the line cuts development costs (which in a small market are high relative to the actual price of production - even more so with the case, which is why the world's-coolest-cheesegrater has contained everything from a single 1.6 970 for $1800 to dual 970MP's for $3300)

more serious & tech-savvy users (ie: from existing prosumer users to a lot of potential switchers from PC background) will gladly choose a low-end single Woodcrest in a fairly empty Pro case above a top-of-the-midrange decked-out compact with a Conroe Extreme, even if the price-tags are around $2000 & $1800, respectively IF the $2000 machine has the potential to be upgraded to the level of a $3000 machine in time...

this would both get more Pro machines moving out the door of the Apple Store itself (agreeing with what others have said here: most needing @least a prosumer machine for starting out independently in the design/video worlds do tend to shop on eBay first, then finally head for a new machine from Apple a few years later, provided that their income has grown sufficiently) - AND provide additional revenue from upgrades - there's room for a generous installation markup here (well, not quite as much as Apple RAM price mark-ups) that'd still make the upgrades much more reasonable & attractive than the torturous & expensive process of selling a machine, buying a new one & re-locating one's life, work & data...

still, knowing Apple all too well the past 20 yrs, this is probably still wishful thinking... \
post #116 of 216
The Mac Pro will be a PC, therefore it will be just as upgradeable as an Alienware or Dell provided that Apple doesn't try to intentionally hinder that.
post #117 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
*bangs head on desk* *bangs everyone else's head on the desk that keeps jumping to the game conclusion*

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Is everyone mocking me? We can all agree that the mac is NOT 1 thing..... and that is a gaming rig.

If you would read back, you would NOTICE that I was referring to the Mac Pro being used for 3d modeling. Where SLI TRULY SHINES.

Next person that says anything about SLI and gaming and referring to my post, i'm ignoring. I could care less about SLI and games and many many mac professionals could care less about games. There is an urgent need for it in the 3d modeling area though.

You can use a graphics card for whatever you want. I was just noting that the Mac Pro is a high-end PC and will run Windows as such. I know what you 3D artists do; great for you. I don't care what you want the Mac Pro to be and not to be used for.

Hell, I didn't even say anything about SLI.
post #118 of 216
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Because, sadly, games seem to rule the graphics card market.

Sadly, the use of a product typically dictates what the product is designed to be used for.

Funny, that.
post #119 of 216
Originally posted by emig647
*yells* I don't want SLI or Crossfire or dual pci-e cards for gaming!!! *spits on games* hehe....It's funny, everyone immediately jumps on the gaming bandwagon when sli is brought up. I want it for modeling and real time rendering on those models i'm working with. Why can't anyone see how much more beneficial it is to have this stuff in the studio as opposed to adding 30fps on your games *rolls eyes*.



Good luck with getting Mac SLI drivers though
muah aha hah haha hh aaha

The money you spend on Two cards in SLI you might as well put into ONE kickass card. This is well known in the gaming world already.

If you're thinking, Oh, I can upgrade later by adding in another card for SLI, by that time, again, you might as well buy ONE NEW kickass card.

SLI is a bit of a gimmick in the gaming world with enthusiast/ branding/ marketing purposes mainly. Enthusiast gamers normally use SLI so that they can put together two nVidia 7900s or something like that to get ridiculously high frame rates.

DON'T GET SUCKED INTO IT if you are doing 3D work on a Mac. Just get a decent ONE 3D CARD (I guess from the look of it the only option is a Quadro FX 4500).

Unless you want to run TWO Quadro FX 4500s in SLI or something like that???? Wow, that would be beastly...is that the kind of power you're after?

nVidia has a page on SLI Quadros:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/quadro_sli.html
post #120 of 216
Originally posted by melgross
It's true. But, don't forget that Alien and Voodoo machines, expensive beasts, are mostly bought by gamers. I've read gamers say on other sites that if the Mac does games as well as a gaming PC, they'll switch. I believe that.



(Placebo this means you as well)
Yes, BootCamp is great now you can run PC games! I think that's a good step. But graphics card options are the reall deal-killer here. x1600 is not that great*. mobility x1600 is not that great. underclocking them in the Mac is not cool (pun intended, I guess). G5 towers - 6600 plain is not great. The only reasonable graphics card for serious gamers who would consider Mac is those that get the G5 towers and the nVidia 7800GT.

so there's only 1 reasonable option for gamers to switch to Mac and run their PC games in bootcamp

*Running at low-medium settings with x1600 is really not that appealing to those that go Alien/ Voodoo.
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