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post #81 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by schmidm77
Communism is anarchic? Lol. So who's going to be the one to manage and prioritize the employment of all that property after its private ownership is abolished? And how are you going to keep all the drones shuffling from their state provided housing to their state provided jobs and back, all working towards the common utopian goal?

Apparently, the "genius" Marx didn't understand the law of unintended consequences. Or maybe he knew all along that his communism was totalitarian by its very nature.

You are making the usual error of mistaking the communist party with the state government.

The Communist party may control the state, but the state isn't Communist. There has never been a Communist state. Those states have been socialist. Chucker is correct. In the Communist system, the state withers away, because as people learn and believe the Communist ideal, the state no longer has a function.

In reality, Kruschov (Russian spelling) was correct when he said that "No one is a born Communist". And therin lies the problem. People have to be forced to live under a socialist system, ruled by those in the Communist party. We know what that leads to.
post #82 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by scavanger
Shame that all the money they save on labor doesn't translate into lower prices for the products.

Why do you think they are there in the first place? Competition on prices.
post #83 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Please, please, please go fuck yourself.

You have GOT to be kidding. Slave labor conditions and you justify it as some necessary step on the glorious road to capitalistic paradise? You wouldn't subject yourself or a family member to those conditions for five minutes, but you'll sit there in your comfortable middle-class existance and claim this is actually good for people? You should be deeply, deeply ashamed. Your comments are some of the most disgusting I have ever seen on the Internet, and that's really saying something.

Here's a quick history lesson to augment your Alabama public school system education. It only took a thousand years in the west for the free market to generate a minumum wage and workers' rights. Due to nothing but blind luck, you now sit on your ass in Starbucks the beneficiary of a millenium of slave and child labor, which of course gives you the moral highground to tell those ingrate dollar a day workers how good they got it.

What you are saying isn't totally correct, and the part that is, about the time it took for developed countries to get where we are, only illustrates how difficult it all is.

If you read the Times or the WSJ, you will see that companies in China are already having to give workers higher salaries, better working conditions, etc. The complaint there is that as conditions in the countryside have been improving, the factories are having a labor shortage! Hard to believe, but true.

Others there have complained that China is already losing its status as the lowest cost producer to Vietnam, and other countries.

So, the cycle continues. I'm not sure what you would suggest as a viable solution. There isn't enough money in the world to pay Chinese, Indian, and other low wage earners competitive wages, working conditions, and benefits at this time. That will take generations. I remember when the Japanese were earning much less than we were. Not any more. The same thing has been happening in S Korea, and Taiwan.

It's sad to see this, but it's been happening for a very long time. Nothing new.

Look at what happened in E Germany when the reunification occured. Despite W Germany pouring a $100 billion a year into the east, the living wage, unemployment, and living conditions there have remained well behind the west. And with that trillion dollars, a mere 16 million people couldn't be dragged into equality. What do you think it would take to drag the 95 times larger Chinese population into rough equality with the developed nations? India? Indonesia? Etc.?

My theory has been that it will take over 50 years. But it will happen. Then, most of the world will be on a roughly even footing, except for Africa. That will take even longer.
post #84 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by scavanger
Maybe with Walmart, but not so much with Apple.

The Apple part of your assertion is completely unsupported. You apparently don't read much financial information.
post #85 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by scavanger
That is not always the case. Great example was the Tech Bubble in late 90s, almost none of the companies made a profit, but they had a huge stock price. Stock prices are far more complicated then that, also a stock that is at 100 dollars isn't always more expensive then a 10 dollar stock. I personally think that Apple's stock is coming into line where it should be.

Also, Apple still has extremely high margins in the computer industry, they are exploiting cheap labor while still charging a premium for their products, where as other companies like Dell exploit cheap labor but have very low margins.

Also Chris, if you can give some examples or even something more then 1 line answers to prove your arguement.

Actually, the first one making an assertion is responsible for providing the proof.
post #86 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by SpamSandwich
You also seem extremely uninformed. Libertarians are nowhere NEAR socialists.

www.lp.org

Unless they're in New York.
post #87 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by fuyutsuki
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!

No. look up the terms. A libertarian is, if anything, the exact opposite of a socialist. The libertarian believes that one shouldn't pay taxes of any kind, except perhaps for the defense of the country. The government should make no laws constraining business in any way, and that we, as individuals, should be allowed to do just about anything we wish.

You are confusing libertarian with liberal. A libertarian is to the right of George (gotta love him!) Bush. A liberal is to the left of Bill Clinton.
post #88 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by slughead
I agree the US exploits Japan.. but on the other hand, Japan makes way better cars.

It somehow evens out in the end.

After reading a previous post, I'm personally boycotting Apple for NOT opening up one of these factories in Djibouti.

But, in the end, this can't be enslavement because it's voluntary. These people can either work here or work at some place even crappier, or not work at all out of protest of not making $6/hr like they would in America. Any one of these options would shut down this factory immediately, and it would move to Djibouti.

The article mentioned by this topic was heavily slanted using language. "<i>Only</i> $X/wk", "<i>Forced</i> to stand."

You journalism majors should take note: this is how you're going to convince the world to destroy itself in the future!

Oh, BTW, I'm working at a job where I would be formally disciplined if I sat down while not on break--warehouse worker for a small business. I just started back there today after leaving to go to school for a few months. It doesn't pay very much but I'm working there because nobody else would hire me for such weird hours and for short a time. I can't spend more than $5/day on food with my budget, and in America, that's nothin.

Where's my offensive 12 year-old to fend off the capitalists?

Japan exploits as well. They prevent many US goods from being sold at competitive prices with high tarifs. Their banking and other business laws are heavily biased against foreign companies.
post #89 of 113
Is this the same forum where you are all constantly bitching about how Apples products are way too expensive?

I'm confused...
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #90 of 113
Phew! Thank goodness melgross explained it all for us!
post #91 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by marklar
...
just becuase we all suffered a hundred years ago, doesnt mean that others have to suffer now, or are you into some kind of 'penalty' for industrialisation?. clearly one would have hoped that civilisation would have advanced to the extent that even though people work in factories they should be treated better than the 19th century. also the issue isnt just about wages. its about issues such as forced overtime, unfair dismissials, a lack of any system to check that there are any under age workers. ...

It's kind of like teenagers going through puberty. It just has to happen for us to grow up.
post #92 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by fuyutsuki
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!

Wow. What part of the world is that? Libertarians are free marketeers. That's not socialism. There are some anarchist libertarians, but I would hazard a guess that most are socially liberal, but personally conservative.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #93 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Unless they're in New York.

If this is so, I'd be utterly aghast. What has happened to the ideas put forth by Ayn Rand, Thomas Jefferson, et al.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #94 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by SpamSandwich
If this is so, I'd be utterly aghast. What has happened to the ideas put forth by Ayn Rand, Thomas Jefferson, et al.

Well, we have all kinds here in NYC. From the far right to the far left.
post #95 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Japan exploits as well. They prevent many US goods from being sold at competitive prices with high tarifs. Their banking and other business laws are heavily biased against foreign companies.

yeah, that is "free market" mate. forget it. at least you live in a country that if it shouts loud enough (and it does), people will listen. like for instance ups sueing canadian gov because nafta makes other nations pay homage to usa. don't bring up usa and bias, it has done everything to preserve (even at federal level) its dominance over other nations and markets.
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post #96 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Apparatus
It's so sad to see a bunch of selfish mental midgets trying to justify a Chinese woman working 15 hours a day for 40 bucks a week, just so they can feel good about themselves and not try and do anything to stop it.

okay, you first
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post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by shigzeo
yeah, that is "free market" mate. forget it. at least you live in a country that if it shouts loud enough (and it does), people will listen. like for instance ups sueing canadian gov because nafta makes other nations pay homage to usa. don't bring up usa and bias, it has done everything to preserve (even at federal level) its dominance over other nations and markets.

Despite what you think, we're still much better than many other places. We actually allow most foreign companies buy up American firms even though our companies can't do so in their countries. NAFTA has hurt our workers more than our partners, and we haven't developed standards designed for the purpose of keeping other products out of our market as the Europeans have done.

We certainly aren't perfect. I don't agree with many of the farm subsidies, but I can understand the defense of what is left of the steel industry, considering how important it is for national security.

But, some countries have very strong protectionist feelings. If we matched them piece by piece, there would be little international trade at all.
post #98 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
we haven't developed standards designed for the purpose of keeping other products out of our market as the Europeans have done.

Master of the sweeping statement.

I'm sure both the US and Europe have done both. The 1967 safety requirements on cars comes immediately to mind as it decimated European car imports into the USA. And we still can't export beef into the USA without pumping it full of hormones which are banned here.
post #99 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Master of the sweeping statement.

I'm sure both the US and Europe have done both. The 1967 safety requirements on cars comes immediately to mind as it decimated European car imports into the USA. And we still can't export beef into the USA without pumping it full of hormones which are banned here.

I'll give a good example then. WE have the UL standards, they have the DIN standards.

The UL standards spec the electrical characteristics of a device. The physical characteristics are left to other standards bodies.

The DIN standards characterize both. In the US it is legal to utilize either standard for imported equipment. We had imported equipment from Europe that used DIN electricals.

But, in Europe, only DIN standard electricals are allowed. American equipment won't physically fit the DIN standard. Parts have to be DIN certified. It cost much more for an American company to do that. Also, DIN standard parts, such as contactors are spec'd much closer to the size. There is very little overload capacity built-in. American parts are spect'd so that there is more overload capacity. This leads to bigger parts that don't fit the DIN rails.

So, European equipment sold here is built in Europe with European parts, while American equipment for export to Europe must be fitted with European parts assembled in Europe because the unit must be inspected both before and after assembly. So, the parts must be bought there. Not enough equipment is sold there for American manufacturers to make a lot of DIN spec parts, and they still must be assembled there.

I'm refering to the photo lab equipment I bought for my lab.
post #100 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I'll give a good example then. WE have the UL standards, they have the DIN standards.

To be more precise, the Germans have the DIN standard, which has traditionally been the strictest. Britain has the British Standard or BS Kitemark. I'm sure other European countries have their own also. These national standards however are gradually being superseded by European Community normalised standards in order that there's one standard Europe wide. That's so that there's a single market and each country can compete fairly with each other without barriers. As you can imagine, it takes a while for everyone to agree on them. Standards in Greece aren't as strict as Germany.

If you look on the back of your Mac you'll see a 'CE' mark indicating it conforms to European normalised standards. These CE standards generally are a dumbing down so that poorer nations don't have to meet Germany, Britain or France's higher standards.

Your suggestion that Europe produces standards in order to prevent competition is way off although I can understand why meeting DIN standards might be seen as such.

European agricultural standards are always fun ones for us Brits though. At one point Europe produced a standard for bananas that wasn't curvy. This seems to have been because Britain buys most of it's bananas from (British) Commonwealth countries where they're curvy. The French didn't like that. Neither did the USA. Funnily enough, the Daily Mail didn't like that either.
post #101 of 113
$100 a month is not a fantastic wage in a developing country. It is A wage, which is more than a lot have. But an internationally responsible corporation would not pay such a scant wage and subject people to 15-hour per day workdays. Period.

As a related aside, I live in a country where the average wage is 200 Euro / Month with 40% unemployment. A family of four with this can afford a one-room apartment, a loaf of bread per day, veggies and fresh stuff, and maybe eat a nice meal with meat once per week. The family has almost no extra to make any sort of safety net, so they are 100% dependent on that job, and if that job goes away, the living conditions deteriorate rapidly. And because employment prospects are dim, the worker earning the salary will do practically anything to keep the job, whether it's pushups or 15-hour days or a paycut. The worker has no power whatsoever.

And this is in a country with a reasonable standard-of-living, somewhere like China this would be magnified 10x. I'm shocked at the number of people calling this a 'good thing for the Chinese.'
post #102 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
I'm shocked at the number of people calling this a 'good thing for the Chinese.'

You seem to be missing the point that the "good thing" is that this sort of economic development is enabling China (and India also) to grow and elevate the condition of people's lives in aggregate and over time.
post #103 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by vinney57
Phew! Thank goodness melgross explained it all for us!

post #104 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
You seem to be missing the point that the "good thing" is that this sort of economic development is enabling China (and India also) to grow and elevate the condition of people's lives in aggregate and over time.

It's kind of hard to miss that "point." It's been the argument favoring outsorcing labor to sweatshops since their existence. The argument behind my statements is that it isn't necessary to emulate the mistakes and injustice in our own industrial past in order for other countries to develop functional, beneficial economies.
post #105 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
it isn't necessary to emulate the mistakes and injustice in our own industrial past

Hmmm...well, if by "emulate" you mean deliberate action, I'd agree...if by "emulate" you mean natual order of development...then I'm not so sure.

A country that has 50-60% of its population living on a day-to-day existence of less than US$1/day is not going to suddenly jump to the level of where the western world is from a legal, social and economic perspective.

Again, I strongly suggest Jeffrey Sachs' book "The End of Poverty" for more insight on this matter.
post #106 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
To be more precise, the Germans have the DIN standard, which has traditionally been the strictest. Britain has the British Standard or BS Kitemark. I'm sure other European countries have their own also. These national standards however are gradually being superseded by European Community normalised standards in order that there's one standard Europe wide. That's so that there's a single market and each country can compete fairly with each other without barriers. As you can imagine, it takes a while for everyone to agree on them. Standards in Greece aren't as strict as Germany.

If you look on the back of your Mac you'll see a 'CE' mark indicating it conforms to European normalised standards. These CE standards generally are a dumbing down so that poorer nations don't have to meet Germany, Britain or France's higher standards.

Your suggestion that Europe produces standards in order to prevent competition is way off although I can understand why meeting DIN standards might be seen as such.

European agricultural standards are always fun ones for us Brits though. At one point Europe produced a standard for bananas that wasn't curvy. This seems to have been because Britain buys most of it's bananas from (British) Commonwealth countries where they're curvy. The French didn't like that. Neither did the USA. Funnily enough, the Daily Mail didn't like that either.

We had equipment from various countries that met the DIN standard, never any other.
post #107 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
$100 a month is not a fantastic wage in a developing country. It is A wage, which is more than a lot have. But an internationally responsible corporation would not pay such a scant wage and subject people to 15-hour per day workdays. Period.

As a related aside, I live in a country where the average wage is 200 Euro / Month with 40% unemployment. A family of four with this can afford a one-room apartment, a loaf of bread per day, veggies and fresh stuff, and maybe eat a nice meal with meat once per week. The family has almost no extra to make any sort of safety net, so they are 100% dependent on that job, and if that job goes away, the living conditions deteriorate rapidly. And because employment prospects are dim, the worker earning the salary will do practically anything to keep the job, whether it's pushups or 15-hour days or a paycut. The worker has no power whatsoever.

And this is in a country with a reasonable standard-of-living, somewhere like China this would be magnified 10x. I'm shocked at the number of people calling this a 'good thing for the Chinese.'

$100 in China goes much further than it does where you live. It goes even further in Vietnam. Further in many countries in Africa.

It also depends on whether your economy is on the way up, or on the way down. It's also reletive within the country itself. For years, in China, there was little prospect in the countryside. People flocked to the cities. That's changed slightly over the past year.

Companies pay the wages prevelant in the area. They can't come in and demand that their manufacturers suddenly offer wages several times what is being paid elsewhere. They can demand decent wages for what similar jobs in that country go for, same with working conditions.

In the US, we didn't have laws against sweatshops until the Triangle Factory fire early last century. But, if you look around in areas in many cities, you will still find some. Nothing is perfect.
post #108 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by monkeyastronaut

Yes, very amusing.
post #109 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Hmmm...well, if by "emulate" you mean deliberate action, I'd agree...if by "emulate" you mean natual order of development...then I'm not so sure.

A country that has 50-60% of its population living on a day-to-day existence of less than US$1/day is not going to suddenly jump to the level of where the western world is from a legal, social and economic perspective.

Again, I strongly suggest Jeffrey Sachs' book "The End of Poverty" for more insight on this matter.

I don't see 15 hour workdays and worker exploitation as being part of the "natural order of development." Low wages though, yes. I think that many people in this thread see this "natural order" as requiring that labor have no power. Am I wrong?

I am not anti-globalisation, however I think with globalisation comes a huge responsibility. For the first time in human history, we have the power to lift billions out of poverty...or we could use that same power to exploit poor countries in order to feed our own resource-intensive development.

It should also be mentioned that world resources simply can't support China, India, Vietnam, and other developing countries, if they were to ever reach the level of industrialization as the Western World. It has to be done differently this time.
post #110 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
I don't see 15 hour workdays and worker exploitation as being part of the "natural order of development." Low wages though, yes. I think that many people in this thread see this "natural order" as requiring that labor have no power. Am I wrong?

I am not anti-globalisation, however I think with globalisation comes a huge responsibility. For the first time in human history, we have the power to lift billions out of poverty...or we could use that same power to exploit poor countries in order to feed our own resource-intensive development.

It should also be mentioned that world resources simply can't support China, India, Vietnam, and other developing countries, if they were to ever reach the level of industrialization as the Western World. It has to be done differently this time.

I wish it weren't true, but you just have to look at the history of slavery over the thousands of years of history to see the truth of that. After that came serfdom, which was a great improvement. Then indentured employment. After that came 12 to 18 hour days, six or seven days a week. Only last century did laws limiting working hours and days come into effect. Do you really think that this is going to happen in these countries where the only concerns of the governments is to increase developement as soon as possible? China wants to become a major world economic power as quickly as they can. That, and social order is all they care about. It's doubtful that they would approve anyone paying much above the going rates, because that would make them less competitive, and would encourage workers elsewhere to become unhappy. Other countries are trying to be more competitive than China, and advertise that cost there are even lower. Do you think you can fight this?
post #111 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
I don't see 15 hour workdays and worker exploitation as being part of the "natural order of development." Low wages though, yes. I think that many people in this thread see this "natural order" as requiring that labor have no power. Am I wrong?

Long work days and low wages are two sides of the same coin. If they wanted to work 8 hours per day, perhaps they'd get paid 1/2 as much. These two are intertwined. You can't really separate them (for most occupations). Don't know how these particular people are paid (by the hour or piece work)...but hours for dollars is the way most people work.

EDIT: With regard to "worker exploitation", it is unclear that this is happening in this particular example.

Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
For the first time in human history, we have the power to lift billions out of poverty...

And this is actually happening. Not as quickly as some would like, but it is happening (funny thing is that if we were to suddenly implement minimum wages or maximum hours or both...it would likely stall or significantly slow this growth and will almost certainly create greater unemployment in those areas). China, India and Eastern Europe are great examples. Africa is a very poor example right now. Central and South America are somewhere inbetween.
post #112 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla


EDIT: With regard to "worker exploitation", it is unclear that this is happening in this particular example.

yeah, to be fair we don't have very much information in this particular case.

there seems to be some confusion as to what the anti-worker exploitation crowd wants. it isn't necessarily 8-hour workdays or a $6/hour minimum wage, but it is that labor not be completely at the mercy of their employer. you say this is impossible, i say that it is possible. we could each site a dozen studies to back what we think. i'm not sure where else to take this debate.

regarding serfdom and such, my argument is that because of globalization, it isn't necessary to take the "traditional" path to a decent society, which seems to be painted as a thousand years of misery followed by a hundred years of prosperity.

i'd be curious to hear the response to the argument about world resources not supporting countries that industrialized in the same manner in the US or Western Europe.
post #113 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
there seems to be some confusion as to what the anti-worker exploitation crowd wants...it is that labor not be completely at the mercy of their employer

I agree. That would be slavery. Freedom is vital for economic development...freedom in employment is part of that equation for sure.

Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
you say this is impossible

Wooaaaa! I don't think I ever said that.

Quote:
Originally posted by progmac
i'd be curious to hear the response to the argument about world resources not supporting countries that industrialized in the same manner in the US or Western Europe.

Well, I'd be curious about some citations to show what that means. The phrase "world resources" is broad and vague, and the phrase "not supporting countries that industrialized in the same manner in the US or Western Europe" isn't much more precise.
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