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Apple's Leopard has its eye on Redmond - Page 3

post #81 of 145
If these screenshots were real Apple Legal would have had their say by now.

I can't wait for next month. It would be nice to have an updated Finder and maybe safari. And what was this talk about resolution independence? That would be nice since I have a 12" powerbook...not exactly huge screen real estate.

And it would be nice to run a few windows apps for us engineers out here. Unless we can get a decent version of matlab (not the X11 version), maybe fluent, and of course solidworks, i'll take a virtualization solution.

-David
David W.
The University of Texas at Austin
Mechanical Engineering | LBJ School of Public Affairs
www.davidwogan.us
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David W.
The University of Texas at Austin
Mechanical Engineering | LBJ School of Public Affairs
www.davidwogan.us
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post #82 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by dmwogan
I can't wait for next month. It would be nice to have an updated Finder and maybe safari. And what was this talk about resolution independence? That would be nice since I have a 12" powerbook...not exactly huge screen real estate.

My understanding is that resolution independence will affect larger pixel displays, making everything appear bigger but using more pixels to draw things (think the icons when you resize them).

They'll be a minimum; you need a certain amount of pixels to be able to see things!!
Daniel Tull
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Daniel Tull
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post #83 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by AppleInsider
For the second time in as many years, Apple Computer is looking to outshine rival Micrsoft Corp. in the inevitable battle between the two companies' software operating systems.

OK, this is what I don't get. Why does it have to be an "inevitable battle"? For christ' sake, these are operating systems, not political parties or countries at odds with each other.

Besides, if you want to make it a "battle", then Microsoft has already won on the only scoreboard that counts; market share.

Talk up Leopard's features all you want, compare them to Vista features if you must, but don't paint this as some great battle. Doing so only makes you look like a deluded Mac fanboy.
post #84 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by dmwogan
If these screenshots were real Apple Legal would have had their say by now.

I can't wait for next month. It would be nice to have an updated Finder and maybe safari. And what was this talk about resolution independence? That would be nice since I have a 12" powerbook...not exactly huge screen real estate.

And it would be nice to run a few windows apps for us engineers out here. Unless we can get a decent version of matlab (not the X11 version), maybe fluent, and of course solidworks, i'll take a virtualization solution.

-David

Woops, didn't read page 2 of the thread. it is fake.
David W.
The University of Texas at Austin
Mechanical Engineering | LBJ School of Public Affairs
www.davidwogan.us
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David W.
The University of Texas at Austin
Mechanical Engineering | LBJ School of Public Affairs
www.davidwogan.us
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post #85 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by UnnDunn
OK, this is what I don't get. Why does it have to be an "inevitable battle"? For christ' sake, these are operating systems, not political parties or countries at odds with each other.

It's just AppleInsider trying to sound like the press. Sensationalism, inaccuracies and all the shizzle.
post #86 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by UnnDunn
OK, this is what I don't get. Why does it have to be an "inevitable battle"? For christ' sake, these are operating systems, not political parties or countries at odds with each other.

Besides, if you want to make it a "battle", then Microsoft has already won on the only scoreboard that counts; market share.

Talk up Leopard's features all you want, compare them to Vista features if you must, but don't paint this as some great battle. Doing so only makes you look like a deluded Mac fanboy.

Welcome.

Stick around for awhile and you might understand...
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post #87 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
It's just AppleInsider trying to sound like the press. Sensationalism, inaccuracies and all the shizzle.

Which is what atracts the so-called readers. And that means more clicks on ads and that in turn means more revenue.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #88 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Which is what atracts the so-called readers. And that means more clicks on ads and that in turn means more revenue.

Which may be a viable business model, but not a true service.
post #89 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Which is what atracts the so-called readers. And that means more clicks on ads and that in turn means more revenue.

Do it too much and you turn your readership away though. Or at least the non-fanboys anyway.
post #90 of 145
Just a little over 7 weeks and counting to the WWDC and Leopard....

Edit: And it's going to be the longest 7 weeks....
You think Im an arrogant [expletive] who thinks hes above the law, and I think youre a slime bucket who gets most of his facts wrong. Steve Jobs
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You think Im an arrogant [expletive] who thinks hes above the law, and I think youre a slime bucket who gets most of his facts wrong. Steve Jobs
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post #91 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Which may be a viable business model, but not a true service.

aegis:

Quote:
Do it too much and you turn your readership away though. Or at least the non-fanboys anyway.

And that's precisely my point. The so-called 'readers' are not people that can contribute quality posts; they're mostly fanboys and the myspace crowd.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #92 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
And that's precisely my point. The so-called 'readers' are not people that can contribute quality posts; they're mostly fanboys and the myspace crowd.

Perhaps exaggerated and one-sided, but not untrue. Can't say I disagree.
post #93 of 145
Good faking. But yeah, DDR2 slip-up ended up being HUGE. Assuming "oh they're running on non-standard apple hardware then" would have been rubbish since almost all Intel stuff has gone DDR2 for a long time now. Like 6 months plus. Only AMD now uses DDR, soon to be phased out with Socket M2.

The faker hasn't been keeping up with examining all the new Intel hardware, Mac and non-Mac, otherwise would have realised the full DDR2 transition in place.

Still, admirable faking, and kudos to all the people that debunked it by the "pixel by pixel/ spacing" issues. Looking back on the fakes, I can't for the life of me see the pixel issues, really.
post #94 of 145
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gene Clean
...The so-called 'readers' are not people that can contribute quality posts; they're mostly fanboys and the myspace crowd.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chucker
...Which may be a viable business model, but not a true service.



Whether AppleInsider is a real service is not that important in that there are several other news sites, it' just that for the most part we come to AI to see what they're conjuring up and we like the discussions here.

Even if the readers are mostly fanboys and myspace people and idiot savants like me (remember my 50Cent mockups yo), I think that overall AppleInsider is operating profitably and has, like you say, a viable business model.

Plus it's just plain fun, we have an intense networking debate, even going into discussing OSI layers, while at the same time a dissecting-the-fakes discussion.

I can understand though that some of you old-schoolers and much more knowledgeable people find some of the sillier posts a bit annoying at times, eg. Placebo and me (sorry Placebo, I named names ) Well, anyway, AppleTalk and stuff. Cool
post #95 of 145
Heh. Placebo might be pissed I dragged him into this discussion the way I did above.
post #96 of 145
Heh heh heh, shut your fucking mouth.
post #97 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by AppleInsider
For the second time in as many years, Apple Computer is looking to outshine rival Micrsoft Corp. in the inevitable battle between the two companies' software operating systems.

There's still over a month to go before Apple will take the wraps off Leopard, the next version of Mac OS X, but already the rumor mills are abuzz over a couple of purported screenshots that depict some long-rumored features of the software.

Leopard is due to hit the market about the same time as Microsoft's Vista, and sources say Apple has been keeping a close eye on the Redmond, Wash.-based software giant. They say the Mac maker has been developing a handful of features for Leopard that will specifically rival those available to Vista users -- some will make the cut for Leopard's release while others may not.

One of the rumored features is said to be OS-level integration of a geographical mapping technology, similar to Microsoft's Virtual Earth. In recent months, Microsoft has made several acquisitions aimed at bolstering its Virtual Earth division, including a buyout of Vexcel Corp.

According to sources, Apple has been working on a similar approach, but modeled after Google's Maps feature. The technology will presumably allow Leopard users to scour the globe through satellite imagery and whisk up driving directions on the drop of a dime.

Another rumored feature of Leopard -- one which appears to be shown in the unauthenticated Leopard screenshots -- is the unification of Apple's Address Book and iCal applications into a single app. Interestingly, the two screenshots making the rounds on the Web this week indeed show a revised Address Book icon that also displays a date. This is coupled with the absence of the traditional iCal icon in the Mac OS X Dock.

Still, the juiciest rumors surround Apple's Boot Camp and where the company may or may not take the technology. Although sources did not explicitly say that Boot Camp would be transformed into a complete virtualization solution, they did say the technology is being groomed as a rival to Microsoft's Virtual PC Express.

In March, Microsoft released an "Early Release" of Virtual PC Express, saying it would allow users "to run an operating system as a host (such as Windows XP Professional) and run another operating system as a guest in the virtual machine (such as Windows 2000)."

"This Early Release does not support Windows Vista since Windows Vista has not yet been released," Microsoft said. "When Windows Vista Enterprise ships in late 2006, it will include Virtual PC Express, which will support Windows Vista as a host operating system (as well as additional enhancements such as support for 64-bit)."

Feature specifics aside, there have been some other rumblings about Leopard. In very much the same way Microsoft decided to market its next-generation OS under the name Vista (rather than its code-name "Longhorn"), Apple is also rumored to be mulling a "more marketable" name for its next-generation OS. However, it's unclear if Apple will ultimately go through with the change.

Apple plans to unveil Leopard for the first time at its World Wide Developers Conference, which runs from Aug. 7 - 11 at the Moscone Center in San Francisco, Calif.

The real question is will there really be a battle. If Mac OS X 10.5 is tied only to Apple's own hardware, it's going to remain in a small niche no matter how much better it is than Vista. In the open market, Apple can bring a level of innovation to the PC world that Microsoft isn't willing to. That being said, Mac OS X's existence on x86 chips is a threat to Microsoft and you better bet they'll be bringing their A-Game to the final release.
post #98 of 145
Apple's a wee bit too far behind to really be of any threat to Microsoft. As much as I want virtualization to be added to OS X I think that it's certainly not the time to do so for Apple.

Virtualization is a phenomenal technology. With today's hardware support I'd venture to say that VM is a Killer App. The ability to run multiple OS and thus applications and tasks concurrently is great. However if you're an OS vendor you have a problem if you happen to be the smaller platform as Apple is.

Microsoft has a cadre of applications, services and technologies that encourage that you stick with their applications or frameworks. It's not necessarily that MS Office is so good but rather it's ubiquitous and there are many supporting tools that people need that create the lockin.

Apple has chosen to focus their attention on creative applications and while that to me is funner than the drudgery of productivity applications it doesn't help to create the type lockin that is needed to really open up OS X to VM.

I do feel like developers will just say "buy Windows and run on the Leopard VM" if it existed. The Mac software echosystem is far more free and liberal than PC. But in a case of VM that becomes a potential liability because not all ISV have hitched their trailer to Apple beyond using OS X API.

I could be totally wrong but I'm just uneasy about this. VM hurts Microsoft far less than it hurts Apple. Microsoft knows this but I'm not sure Apple does.
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post #99 of 145
Everyone assumes Apple is competing against MS. That's not totally right. Steve said so himself once or twice even. Apple is fighting Dell. For profits, not marketshare.

Insofar as virtualization and the death of Mac apps, Apple can just do what MS did with DirectX (Direct3D, technically). Make a vastly superior API. Make it easy to code against and do sweet things with. You don't need to cripple XP apps if OSX apps can do a lot more. Integration with e-mail, chat, spell-checking, web-browsing programs. If Apple adds enough features to Cocoa and pulls out all the stops, that'd mean a lot if Apple's marketshare went up at the same time. Ditto games. D3D beat OpenGL originally because it was easier and better "out of the box". If Apple or someone fiddles with OpenGL enough to retake that "ease of use" crown, then maybe companies will pay more attention to OpenGL, and thus Mac/Linux ports/games.
post #100 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by ZachPruckowski
Everyone assumes Apple is competing against MS. That's not totally right. Steve said so himself once or twice even. Apple is fighting Dell. For profits, not marketshare.

Insofar as virtualization and the death of Mac apps, Apple can just do what MS did with DirectX (Direct3D, technically). Make a vastly superior API. Make it easy to code against and do sweet things with. You don't need to cripple XP apps if OSX apps can do a lot more. Integration with e-mail, chat, spell-checking, web-browsing programs. If Apple adds enough features to Cocoa and pulls out all the stops, that'd mean a lot if Apple's marketshare went up at the same time. Ditto games. D3D beat OpenGL originally because it was easier and better "out of the box". If Apple or someone fiddles with OpenGL enough to retake that "ease of use" crown, then maybe companies will pay more attention to OpenGL, and thus Mac/Linux ports/games.

While I've only done DirectX 7, and OpenGL... I found OpenGL WAY easier than directX. The classes were more organized and made sense to me. Along with that other people in the Softwrae Engineering program at OIT agreed with me. They all prefered OpenGL over DirectX. I really think it's a matter of preference. I think DirectX won because Microsoft gave support for it. They could have cared less about OpenGL... and why should they have? OpenGL was competing against something they created. That's the main key, they supported one and not the other (technically).

 

 

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post #101 of 145
Apple's competing with Microsoft regardless of what Steve says. If Dell died tomorrow that would not mean an Apple victory it would simply mean more sales for HP, Lenovo, Acer and Sony amongst others.

While I think Apple has the talent to develope a nice software strategy replete with integration they haven't actually executed all that well.

I think the company has had a bit of analysis paralysis because they can't decide on what type of company the want to be. Is it a media company or education or business? Thank God for the iPod because without it I don't know where Apple would be.
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post #102 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Thank God for the iPod because without it I don't know where Apple would be.

I think they'd be just where they were before the iPod... maybe a little better with this intel transition.

 

 

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post #103 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Apple's competing with Microsoft regardless of what Steve says. If Dell died tomorrow that would not mean an Apple victory it would simply mean more sales for HP, Lenovo, Acer and Sony amongst others.

True. What I meant was that Apple is a hardware company. It exists to sell Macs, not copies of Tiger or Leopard. Therefore, the market importance of OS X is to be what Apple has that beats a regular PC. Apple is competing against Windows only because the other OEMs use it.
post #104 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by ZachPruckowski
True. What I meant was that Apple is a hardware company. It exists to sell Macs, not copies of Tiger or Leopard. Therefore, the market importance of OS X is to be what Apple has that beats a regular PC. Apple is competing against Windows only because the other OEMs use it.

Apple isn't in the same market segment as the other OEMs. Apple cannot and shouldn't play for the same commodity dollars that Dell and HP get. Their machines are not designed to play there. Mac OS X, however, is in the same market segment as Windows.
post #105 of 145
I don't care whether they compete with MS or Dell.

The iPod pushed Apple along at a time when they needed some zing, both financially and public relations wise. Now with the intel processor and the new hardware, Apple will start hauling the money away by the truck loads. Just wait until the MacPros come out, Adobe gets their crap together, their media center goes full swing, Leopard arrives, etc. I think this quarter will show what most of us know now. The MacBook is selling like hotcakes and will start to push non-iPod hardware to the top.

The iPod will look like an accessory in a couple years time. (Well, that new rumored non-touch video thing could keep this ball rolling...)

I don't buy Apples products to try and make them number one. I buy them because I like them. And I think they are just now hitting stride.
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post #106 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by BenRoethig
Apple isn't in the same market segment as the other OEMs. Apple cannot and shouldn't play for the same commodity dollars that Dell and HP get. Their machines are not designed to play there. Mac OS X, however, is in the same market segment as Windows.

I'm not talking about competing for the $400 computers market, I mean the $800-1500 home computer market. Everytime someone says "well, Dell is $200 cheaper", Apple guys hit back with "yeah, but iLife, OS X, security, TCO" etc.
post #107 of 145
I'm not talking about $200-400 PCs. I'm talking about computers in general. While most mac users may believe that the imac is some kind of evolution of a PC tower, the truth is that they are completely different animals for different users. The PC is going to give you expandability that the iMac never can. The iMac is going to give the user a lot of power, but simplicity at the same time.
post #108 of 145
How many home users actually do expansion? I mean, unless someone is a serious game player, they probably won't be upgrading much. A typical family which uses Office, IE, and e-mail isn't going to be popping another video card or HDD into their computer. To a home user, the expandibility of a PC tower is not that important. It matters to you and I, and most of the people on this board, and most of the people on digg or slashdot, but most computer users don't give a darn.
post #109 of 145
Bingo. The vast majority of 'expandable' PCs are never expanded, and simply chucked en masse, and replaced with completely new boxes.

The number of people who manually upgrade their boxes is small, and the percentage as compared to the general marketplace is shrinking daily.
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post #110 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Why would you want GNUStep to learn Obective-C/Cocoa when you've MacOSX already ?

I do not want to use GNUstep to learn Objective-C/Cocoa, I want to learn GNUstep in addition to Cocoa. The desktop look is what got me interested in learning GNUstep but there are benefits to porting an OS X (Cocoa) app to GNUstep like:

1 - learning what frameworks/APIs are common, which ones are not, and how to work around the differences.
2 - learning how to manually make/build an application
3 - get exposure to linux (Gentoo in my case) since FreeBSD is not fully functional on the PPC and GNUstep is not supported on OpenBSD, which does support PPC.
4 - exposure to and a better understaning of open source since only OS X apps get installed on my Tiger.
post #111 of 145
But wait, about this "resolution independence."

I have a hopelessly outdated iBook that maxes out at 800x600, so this feature really interests me....

How exactly would this work? What could you do with it?

And also, does Vista have this feature? I had heard that but I'm not sure.
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post #112 of 145
Quote:
One of the rumored features is said to be OS-level integration of a geographical mapping technology, similar to Microsoft's Virtual Earth. In recent months, Microsoft has made several acquisitions aimed at bolstering its Virtual Earth division, including a buyout of Vexcel Corp.

Pff, they're prolly going to add that to Sherlock huh.

Apple is trying, or tried, to replace the Internet with Sherlock. Sorry. Won't work. I haven't even opened Sherlock. Ever. I think I threw it away. Fuck map directions. Thats' why people bookmark Google or Yahoo maps. What a waste of money. I doubt that.

Besides I'll have ESRI ArcGIS ArcMap on my Parellels soon! 8) Sure wish someone would make a Mac GIS program.

edit: I wouldn't mind tabs in Finder. I wonder if they'll ever add them. Or integrate Safari and the Finder. Half joking on that last one.
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post #113 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by turnwrite
But wait, about this "resolution independence."

I have a hopelessly outdated iBook that maxes out at 800x600, so this feature really interests me....

How exactly would this work? What could you do with it?

And also, does Vista have this feature? I had heard that but I'm not sure.

Not much...resolution independence will generally become more useful as the physical area of the screen remains the same and as resolution increase.

The Mac OS X GUI as we know it today only shrinks as screen resolution increases because the screen can display more pixels on a certain fixed physical area and the OS simply isn't aware of the fact that the physical area is the same since the icons are fixed sizes, the menu bar is a fixed size, the window title bars are fixed sizes, etc.

Resolution independence simply allows on-screen objects to be dynamically resizable so that you don't need to squint at smaller icons, smaller menu bars, smaller title bars, etc.

So res independence will only get more interesting in the future as screen resolution increases. You could still use it on your iBook to, say, make the on-screen objects bigger so you can see them at a distance...I suppose you could also make on-screen objects smaller...but you'd lose some details.
post #114 of 145
Thanks for explaining.

Okay, so it sounds like I could just resize some objects onscreen to make them smaller and fit more.

For instance, the app I use the most is Adobe InDesign, and it's hell on an 800x600 resolution. It sounds like it'd be possible to resize some things to make it all fit. You're right though, I would lose some detail...

Hm. I saw a demonstration video of this feature in Vista and they were running Calculator at three different resolutions in 3 windows all next to each other. So if you can make stuff bigger, you should be able to make it smaller too.

Right?

I'm definitely getting Leopard.
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post #115 of 145
Since you're specifically mentioning calculator, I might as well use that as an example.

Here's Calculator's window and its menu bar at 1.00 / 72 dpi (no positive or negative scaling):





Here's the same at 2.00 / 144 dpi (scaled to double its size):





And finally, 0.5, or half the size:





You'll notice all sorts of weird display anomalies in those screenshots, which is a large part of the reason this feature isn't officially enabled yet. Also, the window screenshots have your post in the background for comparison (the size of the background browser window doesn't change).
post #116 of 145
are you all blind?

the link to the shots says that they are 100% fake. Photoshopped. DOne up. Fake.

goshes.
post #117 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by josa92
are you all blind?

the link to the shots says that they are 100% fake. Photoshopped. DOne up. Fake.

goshes.

Are you blind?

No recent post talks about those shots any more. In fact, various posts explicitly state that those shots have been confirmed as fake.

goshes.
post #118 of 145
I see your point, that the feature isn't perfect, the windows look blotchy, and it really isn't meant to help low-end screens, but uber high end ones. Yet I still don't see why it COULDN'T be used to give more screen real estate on an 800x600 screen.

If I were to do the same thing you did with the Calculator with ALL windows, wouldn't it be the equivalent of having a 1024x764 screen on an 800x600 one? I mean, what is the difference; everything on the screen is the same size as it'd be with a larger screen res!

Even if the windows look a little warped, it's just a little. Your example shrinking the calculator didn't look too bad to me...

Although I suppose it'd be annoying to have to manually open some dialog box and change the screen res on every single individual window.

But you'd think that Apple would realize the potential that this has for people with older machines, and have some sort of "Virtual Screen Resolution" thing in System Preferences that automatically shrinks all windows by a certain degree.

Or am I just babbling nonsense?
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post #119 of 145
Quote:
Originally posted by turnwrite
Yet I still don't see why it COULDN'T be used to give more screen real estate on an 800x600 screen.

It could. I don't disagree with that.

Quote:
Although I suppose it'd be annoying to have to manually open some dialog box and change the screen res on every single individual window.

You wouldn't; you can set that globally.

It's a perfectly fine solution, if you can deal with the quality decrease. I never said otherwise.
post #120 of 145
Really?

You can set that globally?

You're using the developer version of this feature that shipped with Tiger, right? So you can globally set the decrease/increase resolution size for all windows using this developer thing in Tiger?
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