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Intel unleashes Mac-bound "Woodcrest" server chip - Page 2

post #41 of 566
Actually their could still be Woodcrest but Apple wouldn't use it in the iMac and here's why.

Woodcrest only makes sense to use over Conroe if

A) You need Dual Socket motherboards
B) You need as much FSB bandwidth as possible.

In a year we'll have Kenstfield and Covertown( Dual Conroe and Dual Woodcrest).

So if Apple wants a quad core system they'll just use Kenstfield or Clovertown. If they want a dual core system they'll us Conroe.
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post #42 of 566
Not shipping, but at least announced!
post #43 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
There will be woodcrest in two years, it just will be cheap enough to go in iMac. The developement costs are such that I doubt Intel will just say goodbye to woodcrest. It will just move down the food chain.

No, Woodcrest is the newest Xeon DP. That means it is a workstation & server chip. Xeon is rarely "moved down" to consumer computers. The Conroe is mostly the same chip anyway and plenty for consumer use..
post #44 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Do you not read these forums, or rember the things that you have discussed in here in the past month? You know the answer.

And actually no one has a woodcrest shipping that I am aware of. Other than intel itself.

But there have been well over 100 machines announced.
post #45 of 566
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
But there have been well over 100 machines announced.

But how many of them are shipping?
What does it matter. PC users will buy PC's That's my take on it. If you want a product from Apple your just going to have to wait until their quality assurance is over, and that has a lot to do with seeing what else is out there. Apple doesn't have to compete with PC's. They can now sit back, wait and see what the rest of the field is offering. Apple will announce in about 4 weeks. They may announce an xserve sooner though. But not a Mac Pro. There is no need to get all emotional about it. General discussion is open in the other forum.
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post #46 of 566
I wish people would stop using rumored names to call machines. The name Mac Pro is stupid as hell, so lets stop calling it that until if/when its official. There is no proof they will call it that yet. And for those that claim its proof because of the trademark filing on "Mac Pro" well thats just one of hundreds of names that have been filed by apple and never used yet.

Ever think that they dont want other people using "Mac Pro" for other reasons than a computer name?


I vote for MacTower and MacTower Pro...


i just get annoyed when people keep using "Mac Pro" so much.
post #47 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by doh123
I wish people would stop using rumored names to call machines. The name Mac Pro is stupid as hell, so lets stop calling it that until if/when its official. There is no proof they will call it that yet. And for those that claim its proof because of the trademark filing on "Mac Pro" well thats just one of hundreds of names that have been filed by apple and never used yet.

Ever think that they dont want other people using "Mac Pro" for other reasons than a computer name?


I vote for MacTower and MacTower Pro...


i just get annoyed when people keep using "Mac Pro" so much.

Shut up.
post #48 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by doh123
Ever think that they dont want other people using "Mac Pro" for other reasons than a computer name?

Is this a joke, or a serious question?

Mac Pro is a perfectly logical name with their new naming scheme. The only Intel Mac not to fit in that scheme is the iMac, and only so because the name has simply become such a powerful brand. Other than that, it's very much aligned. A 3x2 matrix, with only the MacBook mini not having surfaced. Who knows
post #49 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Shut up.

I second that. We have to call it something for purposes of discussion.
post #50 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by doh123
I vote for MacTower and MacTower Pro...

Vote all you want.
Apple is not a democracy.
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post #51 of 566
I believe a search on these boards will show me to be the first to propose the MacTower Pro moniker.
'Mac Pro' is truly a dumb name.

Unfortunately, this is a season of dumb names for Apple machines. Deal with it.
I have resigned myself to the fact the new machines will likely have the 'Mac Pro' name on them.

What's more important is what's inside and whether on not Apple will be able to claim that the new machines run even Photoshop and Office just as fast as the previous G5s.

That claim alone would mean that Pros would begin to switch even without Adobe, and cause Apple stock to surge.

Given the new processor, memory and bandwidth, and the fact that by the time the new machines ship the G5 would not have been updated for almost a year, I think this this is in the realm of possibility.
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post #52 of 566
Oh Frank777, you are so enlightened. Why won't SJ listen to you about product names? Until he does, Apple is surely doomed.
post #53 of 566
Of course, I never claimed Apple was 'doomed' for choosing the 'Mac Pro' name.
Actually, my point was the opposite - that the insides matter more.

Examples like this are why you should be required to take an IQ test before posting in Future Hardware.
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post #54 of 566
Mac Pro is logical, and there was a trademark filing for it. If it turns out to be the MacTower or Tower Mac, or Mac Extreme, we'll start calling it that.
post #55 of 566
Boy ThinkSecret has gone a little soft...they publish a report stating that Xserves maybe imminent but admit that their sources aren't all corrobrating...

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0606xserve.html
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post #56 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
But how many of them are shipping?
What does it matter. PC users will buy PC's That's my take on it. If you want a product from Apple your just going to have to wait until their quality assurance is over, and that has a lot to do with seeing what else is out there. Apple doesn't have to compete with PC's. They can now sit back, wait and see what the rest of the field is offering. Apple will announce in about 4 weeks.

The workstation and server market isn't like the consumer computer market. Computer makers generally don't just shove out crap into the workstation and server market and expect to stay in that segment for long, so I doubt those announced systems are unreliable, poorly made or insufficiently tested.
post #57 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
When they went to water cooling all of the two chip systems used it. I don't remember if all of the latter machines with the dual core chips did though.

Apple-history says that the first liquid cooled G5 was only the top-end 2.5GHz unit, the 2x2.0 unit introduced at the same time didn't need it. I thought that continued with the next revision, dual 2.7 using liquid cooling, with the dual 2.3 not using it, but I haven't found that information yet.
post #58 of 566
I would say it really doesn't matter if only the top end uses the liquid cooling. One model using it will screw the rest of them over, as Apple will keep the same case/mobo, and the main problem with the Powermac's cooling is the size.

Then again, because of forum issues, I can't see the post you quoted, so I may be in left field here.
post #59 of 566
[QUOTE]Originally posted by onlooker
In two years woodcrest will be slow processor, and apple probably wont be using them anymore.



Heh. In two years time Apple will be using Intel chips
< 50nm for sure. Who knows if 65nm Cores will still be around in two years time... Probably on the bottom end, just like how Pentium D 90nm CPUs are all hitting/ moving towards the bargain basement.
post #60 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by ZachPruckowski
I would say it really doesn't matter if only the top end uses the liquid cooling. One model using it will screw the rest of them over, as Apple will keep the same case/mobo, and the main problem with the Powermac's cooling is the size.

Then again, because of forum issues, I can't see the post you quoted, so I may be in left field here.

The issue was about cost of the base model, not case size. It's unclear whether the liquid cooling had an effect on case size because the first generation units didn't have it, and the second generation wasn't introduced until a full year later.
post #61 of 566
I think the whole idea of performance-per-watt is that Apple won't have to have chunky machines with liquid cooling to get some killer computing power.

Given even current Xeon and Opteron servers AFAIK do *not* use liquid cooling (admittedly they are different form factors of 1U, 2U or whatever rack style) ... the Mac Pros even the highest end will most likely *not* use liquid cooling. Some sort of smart heatpipe system with *ahem* thermal paste applied properly ... Fan noise should not be an issue with dampening material, 120mm fans or whatever.

I think Apple engineering will deliver internals that deliver the Woodcrest dualie/quad etc power that Mac Pros should have, and they should be able to manage the acoustics quite well. Well, that's the faith I have currently with the Mac Pros.

Washable filters that prevent dust buildup inside the case that you could easily slide in and out would be nice as well, but that's pushing the wishlist a bit.
post #62 of 566
What Apple really needs to do with the MacPro is make it short enough to flop over on it's side and stuff into a rack

Or they could just suck it up and release a 3 or 4U rackmount workstation with some serious spec-whore goodness!

Worse thing about the fracken' PowerMac G5 tower is those stupid handles

What? Did they think a PowerMac with rackmount dims would cut into Xserve sales?!?

Oy
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post #63 of 566
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by MacRonin
What Apple really needs to do with the MacPro is make it short enough to flop over on it's side and stuff into a rack

Or they could just suck it up and release a 3 or 4U rackmount workstation with some serious spec-whore goodness!

Worse thing about the fracken' PowerMac G5 tower is those stupid handles

What? Did they think a PowerMac with rackmount dims would cut into Xserve sales?!?

Oy

Even though I don't think Apple is ready for that yet. That is a great idea who's time is about to come, and I think Apple could actually use it now. Order a Mac Pro and in your BTO options is 4U rack, or Standard Workstation case. It will probably be too tough to get all the same options into the 4U unit so there will probably be some sacrifices, but I think it could be a possibility.
Maybe next generation when Leopard is running at full blast, and the PC x86 world has seen, and heard the masses of bootcamp users. It could be a highly requested item.
You used to be able to get a G4 in a Rack from a 3rd party developer.

But those handles are actually pretty useful if you prefer the regular boxed machine. There was a time I couldn't live without them. I can't pick up, and move my Alienware anywhere like I did with my G4. If your in the Music industry, and you want to bring your own studio equipment, it's either in a Rack, or you carry it, and moving a computer up, and down flights of stairs, or anywhere for that matter without those handles is no picnic. Moving a computer anywhere is no picnic without those handles.

Think about this for a second. Hypothetically of course. What if a bunch of guy's were having a Unreal Tournament LAN party, or now with bootcamp - any game, and you were invited and wanted to go. Those handles just became your best friend. Personally I think the majority of users have used the handles, and appreciate their usefulness, but you know everybody is entitled to their opinion. I think they are part of the Pro Macintosh style, and in the end it's an ease of use thing that serves a function. Just as the Mac OS has an uncanny ease of use in many ways that we Mac users for get about everyday.
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post #64 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Even though I don't think Apple is ready for that yet. That is a great idea who's time is about to come, and I think Apple could actually use it now. Order a Mac Pro and in your BTO options is 4U rack, or Standard Workstation case. It will probably be too tough to get all the same options into the 4U unit so there will probably be some sacrifices, but I think it could be a possibility.
Maybe next generation when Leopard is running at full blast, and the PC x86 world has seen, and heard the masses of bootcamp users. It could be a highly requested item.
You used to be able to get a G4 in a Rack from a 3rd party developer.

But those handles are actually pretty useful if you prefer the regular boxed machine. There was a time I couldn't live without them. I can't pick up, and move my Alienware anywhere like I did with my G4. If your in the Music industry, and you want to bring your own studio equipment, it's either in a Rack, or you carry it, and moving a computer up, and down flights of stairs, or anywhere for that matter without those handles is no picnic. Moving a computer anywhere is no picnic without those handles.

Think about this for a second. Hypothetically of course. What if a bunch of guy's were having a Unreal Tournament LAN party, or now with bootcamp - any game, and you were invited and wanted to go. Those handles just became your best friend. Personally I think the majority of users have used the handles, and appreciate their usefulness, but you know everybody is entitled to their opinion. I think they are part of the Pro Macintosh style, and in the end it's an ease of use thing that serves a function. Just as the Mac OS has an uncanny ease of use in many ways that we Mac users for get about everyday.

There is (was?) a company that had a rack mount for the B/W's and G4's. They mounted sideways. They are smaller than the G5's though, and the handles come off. If Apple designed the G5 with removable handles (and feet, of course) It could have worked.
post #65 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Even though I don't think Apple is ready for that yet. That is a great idea who's time is about to come, and I think Apple could actually use it now. Order a Mac Pro and in your BTO options is 4U rack, or Standard Workstation case. It will probably be too tough to get all the same options into the 4U unit so there will probably be some sacrifices, but I think it could be a possibility.
Maybe next generation when Leopard is running at full blast, and the PC x86 world has seen, and heard the masses of bootcamp users. It could be a highly requested item.
You used to be able to get a G4 in a Rack from a 3rd party developer.

But those handles are actually pretty useful if you prefer the regular boxed machine. There was a time I couldn't live without them. I can't pick up, and move my Alienware anywhere like I did with my G4. If your in the Music industry, and you want to bring your own studio equipment, it's either in a Rack, or you carry it, and moving a computer up, and down flights of stairs, or anywhere for that matter without those handles is no picnic. Moving a computer anywhere is no picnic without those handles.

Think about this for a second. Hypothetically of course. What if a bunch of guy's were having a Unreal Tournament LAN party, or now with bootcamp - any game, and you were invited and wanted to go. Those handles just became your best friend. Personally I think the majority of users have used the handles, and appreciate their usefulness, but you know everybody is entitled to their opinion. I think they are part of the Pro Macintosh style, and in the end it's an ease of use thing that serves a function. Just as the Mac OS has an uncanny ease of use in many ways that we Mac users for get about everyday.

Don't get me wrong, I am Pro-Handle!

But I am against the size of the tower being too tall to flip on it's side and rackmount

As for LAN parties, that is where the iMac would come into play The iMac has carrying cases available which also protect the unit And it packs everything in one bag, rather than a chassis, a (hopefully) flat-panel monitor & a bag of keyboard/mouse/etc. slowing one down

"Would you look at that dork lugging his CRT to the LAN party?!? Loser!"

;^p
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post #66 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
There is (was?) a company that had a rack mount for the B/W's and G4's. They mounted sideways. They are smaller than the G5's though, and the handles come off. If Apple designed the G5 with removable handles (and feet, of course) It could have worked.

The G5 handles (and feet) ARE removable

With a Sawzall!

;^p
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post #67 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by MacRonin
The G5 handles (and feet) ARE removable

With a Sawzall!

;^p

If you have one, and want me to take the handles off, I'll do it on my milling machine.
post #68 of 566
Thread Starter 
I have a Dremel.
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post #69 of 566
Heh. Makes me think of that dodgy horror movie "Saw" and it's parody clip in "Scary Movie 4". Imagine some psycho chained you up somehow to your iMac, MacPro, MacBook or MacBookPro or G5 or whatever... Your choice would be either cut your Mac in half or cut your foot off to save your life... Don't answer too quickly, my friends... muah aha hahh ahaha hah ha ha ahha
post #70 of 566
[QUOTE]Originally posted by onlooker
But those handles are actually pretty useful if you prefer the regular boxed machine. There was a time I couldn't live without them. I can't pick up, and move my Alienware anywhere like I did with my G4. If your in the Music industry, and you want to bring your own studio equipment, it's either in a Rack, or you carry it, and moving a computer up, and down flights of stairs, or anywhere for that matter without those handles is no picnic. Moving a computer anywhere is no picnic without those handles.



There was some handle discussion on the Mac Pro Mockups thread. There was quite a number of anti-handle people there. I remain pro-handle. Speaking of rackmounts, the XServe has not been updated in 288days, longer than the G5 which has not been updated in 252days.

It would be a juicy treat for sometime in July or WWDC for MacPros and XServes to come out simultaneously, all featuring Woodcrests, of course. Not a foreign idea to the Mac enthusiasts

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/...14080502.shtml
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post #71 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Heh. Makes me think of that dodgy horror movie "Saw" and it's parody clip in "Scary Movie 4". Imagine some psycho chained you up somehow to your iMac, MacPro, MacBook or MacBookPro or G5 or whatever... Your choice would be either cut your Mac in half or cut your foot off to save your life... Don't answer too quickly, my friends... muah aha hahh ahaha hah ha ha ahha

You're sick, sick! That's what you are! Our tender flesh is not to be flayed!
post #72 of 566
Originally posted by melgross
You're sick, sick! That's what you are! Our tender flesh is not to be flayed!



By "tender flesh" I assume you are referring to your Macs.
post #73 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by melgross
You're sick, sick! That's what you are! Our tender flesh is not to be flayed!



By "tender flesh" I assume you are referring to your Macs.

Oh, you are sick!
post #74 of 566
I realise that there's always a faster computer around the corner, but I'm planning to get a new mac around Christmas/January Macworld time. Any idea if the Kentsfield/Clovertown processor is going to be pin compatible with Conroe/Woodcrest? In this new world of upgradeable Intel macs, with people putting Meroms into Mac mini's etc, it would be good if the Kentsfield/Clovertown processor would drop into a Conroe/Woodcrest Mac to upgrade the Mac in the future.
post #75 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Even though I don't think Apple is ready for that yet. That is a great idea who's time is about to come, and I think Apple could actually use it now. Order a Mac Pro and in your BTO options is 4U rack, or Standard Workstation case. It will probably be too tough to get all the same options into the 4U unit so there will probably be some sacrifices, but I think it could be a possibility.

But those handles are actually pretty useful if you prefer the regular boxed machine. There was a time I couldn't live without them. I can't pick up, and move my Alienware anywhere like I did with my G4. If your in the Music industry, and you want to bring your own studio equipment, it's either in a Rack, or you carry it, and moving a computer up, and down flights of stairs, or anywhere for that matter without those handles is no picnic. Moving a computer anywhere is no picnic without those handles.

I'd much rather it be an option, such as removing them and put on rack mount tracks or to not have them on it at all. I do own an old DEC Alpha workstation that did have an available rack-mount option. The early CPLANT cluster used that specific machine. For the time, it was a relatively compact and even sleek unit.

As they are now, their usefulness to me is null. The sharp corners of the edges of the "handles" make carrying them more than a few steps pretty painful without augmentation. The curved corners of the "feet" make them less stable on carpet such that I've needed to augment them. Their weight and size would suggest that I'm better off using a two-wheel luggage cart to move it any farther than the next room. I'm going to be bringing in my PMG5 to the Apple store for service soon and I'm not certainly carrying it through a parking lot.
post #76 of 566
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Actually their could still be Woodcrest but Apple wouldn't use it in the iMac and here's why.

Woodcrest only makes sense to use over Conroe if

A) You need Dual Socket motherboards
B) You need as much FSB bandwidth as possible.

In a year we'll have Kenstfield and Covertown( Dual Conroe and Dual Woodcrest).

So if Apple wants a quad core system they'll just use Kenstfield or Clovertown. If they want a dual core system they'll us Conroe.

I'm not sure which is which, but not knowing how hot the consumer version of the Kentsfield/Clovertown gets (one is server/workstation, and the other is desktop, just like Woodcrest and Conroe) there should still be a second lower wattage version of the desktop model just like conroe has that will probably run cool enough to go into an iMac. I also believe that intel is going to be using ODMC on those processors as well if I'm not mistaken.
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post #77 of 566
Kentsfield is the Desktop Quad Core Proc. Clovertown is the Server Quad Core proc. The difference should mirror today's Conroe/Woodcrest strategy.

Kentsfield should not be SMP, Clovertown should be SMP with a faster bus. Oops saw you already got that down.

Well...


Yeah I think Kenstfield is a possibiliy ad I don't think heat will be all that bad. Apple can surely design around the inevitable extra heat.

Intel doesn't have any ODMC planned for a while. Rumor has it their CSI bus(hypertransport like bus) isn't a given.
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post #78 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Kentsfield is the Desktop Quad Core Proc. Clovertown is the Server Quad Core proc. The difference should mirror today's Conroe/Woodcrest strategy.

Kentsfield should not be SMP, Clovertown should be SMP with a faster bus. Oops saw you already got that down.

Well...


Yeah I think Kenstfield is a possibiliy ad I don't think heat will be all that bad. Apple can surely design around the inevitable extra heat.

Intel doesn't have any ODMC planned for a while. Rumor has it their CSI bus(hypertransport like bus) isn't a given.

When will hyperthreading be resurrected. Seems like a good way to enhance performance without increasing power requirements or heat.
post #79 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by ajprice
Any idea if the Kentsfield/Clovertown processor is going to be pin compatible with Conroe/Woodcrest?

The Bensley platform from Intel is designed for Dempsey (Xeon 5000 series), Woodcrest (Xeon 5100 series) and Clovertown (Xeon 5200 series??), so Clovertown should be compatible with Woodcrest motherboards. I believe same is true of Conroe/Kentfield.

See the article "Intel's Woodcrest processor previewed" on Tech Report.

post #80 of 566
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
When will hyperthreading be resurrected. Seems like a good way to enhance performance without increasing power requirements or heat.

Hyperthreading on a Core Architecture processor is going ot be much harder. That's because we've taken the pipeline stages of the Netburst architecture down from a long 31 pipes to about 14 in the Conroe/Merom/Woodcrest core. That doesn't leave Intel a lot of room to utilize pipes that aren't being used (which is what HT technology does).

I think we'll see HT come back but it may take a bit of work.
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