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Apple releases Mac OS X 10.4.7 Update - Page 4

post #121 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by franksargent


My reply to the above, in order is, no, yes, no!

A nonsense answer? Read the thread, how many people are pointing the finger of blame at themselves? At Apple?

Nope, you blamed Apple, not I. "
Apple is at fault for their update methods."

Is there any consistent pattern to instillation issues posted so far? I don't see one in the FEW posts in this thread so far, but maybe later, who knows. But I doubt that a significant pattern will emerge now or in future OS updates, IMHO updates under 10.4 are pretty seemless, not like the situation in the 10.2 era, these things (OS X instillation procedures) tend to reach mythological proportions over time, people become old school, and just repeat previous procedures, unquestioned.

And that's one of my points, Apple controls the HW/OS chain, while Microsoft does not, yet Apple needs the 12 step AA program to "properly" update the OS, while Microsoft updates are, in a word, seamless. No detach this, permissions that, etcetera! WTF, who wins the ease of use argument here?

"And that means doing what we presented." And what EXACTLY was that explicit stepped procedure, might I ask? Should I listen to HeX cook #1, HeX cook #2, HeX cook #3, ..., ad infinitum. Let's see now 12 steps makes this a 12 factorial problem, 479,001,600 HeX cooks in the kitchen! And what EXACTLY is the "OFFICIAL" word from Apple on installing updates (no Apple support discussion posts please), seeing as I just clicked through all that stuff via Software Update, seeing as I like seamless OS integration on par with Microsoft products? Is that to much to ask of Apple? I think not!


WRT backups, my comment "burn baby burn" was WRT DVD burning as the preferred low cost method of redundancy/storage, and I do this on an almost daily basis. Same goes for (8GB/4GB) flash drives WRT mission critical data, I'm constantly moving data between my home Mac and 2 work PC's.


You're the one not reading this properly.

As I've said, Apple themselves recommends these methods. What more do you need to know?

But, then they pander to the "Oh my-God, I don't understand this, it's too HARD!", crowd, by not requiring it.

What they should do, as I've also said, is to make it part of their update procedures, so that it can't be avoided.

Will this prevent all problems? Of course not! But many "problems" are not actually problems, in the sense of being bugs in the update, other than in the sense that Apple DOES warn people that certain third party software, such as hacks, might cause unexpected problems with the update.

That's also pretty explicit. But, again, Apple goes and does what it does during the update, removing critical parts of that software, without warning, and thereby causing problems.

So, yes, this is Apple's fault.

But, fault also lies with the people who rush out to be the first to download, and install, an update, or upgrade, without waiting to see what problems they might expect from it, and how to avoid it.

But, again, Apple doesn't warn about this either, and the update just appears in Software Update, so people, without thinking, install it.
post #122 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
Repairing permissions doesn't hurt anything that I'm aware of, and for me, usually only takes a couple minutes to do, so I don't see the point in trying to discourage it.

It never should do harm (and when it does, something was really messed up to begin with), nor does it take away much time.

The only problem some people (like me) are having is the associated mythical "effect". It usually doesn't have any whatsoever.
post #123 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
But, again, Apple goes and does what it does during the update, removing critical parts of that software, without warning, and thereby causing problems.

Care to elaborate what you mean by "removing critical parts"?
post #124 of 181
Repairing Permission is not, I repeat, NOT, necessary in 99.999% of all installs.

It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install? Do it not because it's necessary to do it *at that time*, but just because it's a reminder to do it *at all*.

And for the 0.001% of people who might be affected by an improper permission borking an install.. hey, they're covered.
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post #125 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install?

Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.
post #126 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.

woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?

I suppose Kickaha makes a good point. Also, as I've just found out, repairing permissions in 10.4.x on an Intel-based mac is much, much, much, much faster than in 10.3.9 running on a 500 MHz G4, so on newer hardware isn't so much of a hassle.
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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post #127 of 181
I've never repaired permissions in my life (between Public Beta and 10.4.7) and here I am, happily typing away in Safari...I just couldn't be doing that if permissions got fux0r3d and all hell broke loose. Or could I? Moral: repairing permission may solve some problems...but most likely not.
post #128 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Probably because there is an (extremely slight) chance that an application will expect permissions different from those in the BOMs, and will fail to work once permissions have been repaired.

Er.

Then explain how it ever worked in the first place... if the default state is those from the BOMs, and the application did something that altered one of those, it had to work in the first place to get running to alter it. Assuming that the developer had two neurons in their skull to rub together, the same situation as at install would be detected, and the permission would be changed back to what the app needs.

Much more likely that a furbotzed permission would create an issue that would trip up Software Update, since it *doesn't* expect things to change.

Repairing permissions can protect against (rare) Very Bad Things(tm) on system updates, and *MIGHT* cause issues with poorly written apps. Thanks, but I think the balance definitely falls into running it periodically.
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post #129 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?

I suppose Kickaha makes a good point. Also, as I've just found out, repairing permissions in 10.4.x on an Intel-based mac is much, much, much, much faster than in 10.3.9 running on a 500 MHz G4, so on newer hardware isn't so much of a hassle.

Given the age of your machine, I'd wager that your /Library/Receipts folder is stuffed to the gills. The more files in there, the more BOMs the repair process has to sift through to find the correct permissions for things.
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post #130 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
You're the one not reading this properly.

As I've said, Apple themselves recommends these methods. What more do you need to know?

But, then they pander to the "Oh my-God, I don't understand this, it's too HARD!", crowd, by not requiring it.

What they should do, as I've also said, is to make it part of their update procedures, so that it can't be avoided.

Will this prevent all problems? Of course not! But many "problems" are not actually problems, in the sense of being bugs in the update, other than in the sense that Apple DOES warn people that certain third party software, such as hacks, might cause unexpected problems with the update.

That's also pretty explicit. But, again, Apple goes and does what it does during the update, removing critical parts of that software, without warning, and thereby causing problems.

So, yes, this is Apple's fault.

But, fault also lies with the people who rush out to be the first to download, and install, an update, or upgrade, without waiting to see what problems they might expect from it, and how to avoid it.

But, again, Apple doesn't warn about this either, and the update just appears in Software Update, so people, without thinking, install it.



Properly? How so, and you need to be explicit AND exact!

Since, I've dumped my Crude Rude Tude Dude (CRTD), about 20 HeX cooks have piped in, and not a single one offers the same recipe. The simplest (i. e. Occum's Razor or more simply KISS) is what I've always used since 10.3 (or so); Backup (or have your files secured on a regular basis), then upgrade via Software Update. If there's a problem; Do a new install from the system disks, System Update, then restore. It doesn't get any simpler than that!

And like I said previously, please provide an "OFFICIAL" Apple website web page (posts in their discussion groups don't count, since these aren't "OFFICIAL" Apple statements) where this 12 step AA update procedure is CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUSOSLY stated, with a time stamp, if you please!


So let's see now, who doesn't get it? Word! Seamless! Get it? Microsoft does, apparently Apple doesn't IN YOUR CASE, apparently Apple does IN MY CASE!

Somehow this whole discussion reminds me of a dog who won't let go of a bone, the question is, who's the dog?

Sorry, but IMHO, game over!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #131 of 181
Thank fucking god.
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post #132 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. H
woah! Now I'm confused. Are you actually saying that people should actually never repair permissions because that might break something?

No, definitely not. However, I have heard of such rare cases.

Personally, I agree that Apple might as well make it run automatically.
post #133 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Thank fucking god.

Agreed.
post #134 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Care to elaborate what you mean by "removing critical parts"?

It can be any part of the program stored in any one of the System folders, or the library.

When the installer sees third party software, it might remove part of it there. System hacks, for example, are particularly subject to this removal. If something is in the user installable part of the prefs panel, it might be removed, or disabled. That has happened to me, and I had to do a bit of re-installing to get things working again. Apple does warn that something like that could happen. I also had it happen to a file from Norton Anti-Virus, Photoshop, etc. sometimes I can find the removed file, and sometimes I even know where it belongs, but often not.
post #135 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by franksargent


Properly? How so, and you need to be explicit AND exact!

Since, I've dumped my Crude Rude Tude Dude (CRTD), about 20 HeX cooks have piped in, and not a single one offers the same recipe. The simplest (i. e. Occum's Razor or more simply KISS) is what I've always used since 10.3 (or so); Backup (or have your files secured on a regular basis), then upgrade via Software Update. If there's a problem; Do a new install from the system disks, System Update, then restore. It doesn't get any simpler than that!

And like I said previously, please provide an "OFFICIAL" Apple website web page (posts in their discussion groups don't count, since these aren't "OFFICIAL" Apple statements) where this 12 step AA update procedure is CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUSOSLY stated, with a time stamp, if you please!


So let's see now, who doesn't get it? Word! Seamless! Get it? Microsoft does, apparently Apple doesn't IN YOUR CASE, apparently Apple does IN MY CASE!

Somehow this whole discussion reminds me of a dog who won't let go of a bone, the question is, who's the dog?

Sorry, but IMHO, game over!


I am being explicit. Being exact? now that's impossible, which is why you asked.

I don't know of any 12 step process, but there should at least be a one, or two step process. From their trouble shooting page, under before you install.

"Use Disk Utility to check the Mac OS X volume before installing, if you are installing or reinstalling to correct an issue. Tip: Mac OS X 10.3 and 10.4 and later check the target disk automatically during installation."

Too bad the updates don't check the disk as well.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.h...=106692#Before
post #136 of 181
Repairing permissions before an update is as necessary as wearing a seat belt when you get in a car. It is a pre-cautionary measure. You never know when it will save you.

Anyone who recommends against doing so is not a very smart cookie.
post #137 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
Repairing permissions before an update is as necessary as wearing a seat belt when you get in a car. It is a pre-cautionary measure. You never know when it will save you.

Anyone who recommends against doing so is not a very smart cookie.

Not true at all. Just the opposite, if anything.

Some very smart people indeed don't recommend it.

http://daringfireball.net/search?q=r...ng+permissions
post #138 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Not true at all. Just the opposite, if anything.

Some very smart people indeed don't recommend it.

http://daringfireball.net/search?q=r...ng+permissions

I said cookie, not people.
post #139 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by solsun
I said cookie, not people.

Ok
post #140 of 181
Installed Intel update last night via SU and had no problems whatsoever. Glad to see teh snappy.
post #141 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I am being explicit. Being exact? now that's impossible, which is why you asked.

I don't know of any 12 step process, but there should at least be a one, or two step process. From their trouble shooting page, under before you install.

"Use Disk Utility to check the Mac OS X volume before installing, if you are installing or reinstalling to correct an issue. Tip: Mac OS X 10.3 and 10.4 and later check the target disk automatically during installation."

Too bad the updates don't check the disk as well.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.h...=106692#Before



IF you are installing or reinstalling to CORRECT an ISSUE

A definition of exact: Marked by strict and particular and complete accordance with fact.

A definition of ambigious: Equivocal: open to two or more interpretations; or of uncertain nature or significance; or (often) intended to mislead.

Funny thing is, both your links fully support my opinion! Thanks. 8)

But, this IS the "OFFICIAL" Apple document on updating HeX;

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303602

Follow those steps EXACTLY, especially number 7, otherwise you are DOOMED!

PS - "12 steps" and "AA" might be a facetious comment aimed at all this HeX exorcism/voodoo/meth lab cooks BS!

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post #142 of 181
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kickaha
Repairing Permission is not, I repeat, NOT, necessary in 99.999% of all installs....It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install? Do it not because it's necessary to do it *at that time*, but just because it's a reminder to do it *at all*....And for the 0.001% of people who might be affected by an improper permission borking an install.. hey, they're covered.



This is the most sensible of posts in the whole Permissions Debate (tm). Along with the seat-belt analogy.

I'm just a regular ol' user, so I'll repair permissions, then update, repair permissions every now and then, and hell, I feel like repairing permissions later today, because it makes me feel good. Most important to me is Peace of Mind. Some suggest meditation and yoga, well, sometimes repairing permissions, like defragging your hard disk in Windows, has the same effect for me. Hell, just had breakfast, I'm gonna brush my teeth now and defrag my Windows hard disks in the meantime.

In any case, if not for Kickaha's post above, I would have ended up even more confused after two pages of this thread on the Permissions Debate (tm). But teh snappy is a smooth, warm feeling (like peeing in your pants*) and seeing 10.4.7 in About this Mac rounds off the warm and fuzzy experience that is the Mac. And I feel good that I have the latest *free* goodness of all the hard work of Apple engineering, some of the best minds on the planet. Plus I can stride about in confidence that my iBook is one of the most secure computing platforms in the world, and I can laugh at all the Antivirus/ Firewall/ Norton/ McAffee/ Anti-Spyware blah blah blah nonsense that chews up resources and severely interferes with the user experience on a Windows PC.

*This is strictly a joke, do not attempt in public.

PS. Franksargent: What the f0xk is your problem now still?
post #143 of 181
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sunilraman
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Repairing Permission is not, I repeat, NOT, necessary in 99.999% of all installs....It is, however, something that should be done periodically just to check... so why not just do it before an install? Do it not because it's necessary to do it *at that time*, but just because it's a reminder to do it *at all*....And for the 0.001% of people who might be affected by an improper permission borking an install.. hey, they're covered.



This is the most sensible of posts in the whole Permissions Debate (tm). Along with the seat-belt analogy.

I'm just a regular ol' user, so I'll repair permissions, then update, repair permissions every now and then, and hell, I feel like repairing permissions later today, because it makes me feel good. Most important to me is Peace of Mind. Some suggest meditation and yoga, well, sometimes repairing permissions, like defragging your hard disk in Windows, has the same effect for me. Hell, just had breakfast, I'm gonna brush my teeth now and defrag my Windows hard disks in the meantime.

In any case, if not for Kickaha's post above, I would have ended up even more confused after two pages of this thread on the Permissions Debate (tm). But teh snappy is a smooth, warm feeling (like peeing in your pants*) and seeing 10.4.7 in About this Mac rounds off the warm and fuzzy experience that is the Mac. And I feel good that I have the latest *free* goodness of all the hard work of Apple engineering, some of the best minds on the planet. Plus I can stride about in confidence that my iBook is one of the most secure computing platforms in the world, and I can laugh at all the Antivirus/ Firewall/ Norton/ McAffee/ Anti-Spyware blah blah blah nonsense that chews up resources and severely interferes with the user experience on a Windows PC.

*This is strictly a joke, do not attempt in public.

PS. Franksargent: What the f0xk is your problem now still?



Being sardonic!

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post #144 of 181
Just installed 10.4.7 on my Blakbook and it purrs like a kitten.
post #145 of 181
mmmm.... meow..... .... I just spilled some tea (dripped from the bottom of the cup) on my iBook keyboard. Had to quickly whip out my hankerchief and wipe off some of it. Keyboard looks okay for now...
post #146 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
mmmm.... meow..... .... I just spilled some tea (dripped from the bottom of the cup) on my iBook keyboard. Had to quickly whip out my hankerchief and wipe off some of it. Keyboard looks okay for now...

Hopefully, it was tea with some milk in it for the poor little pussy cat...

(edit) I just had to find a way to use the word "pussy" in one of my posts today.
post #147 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Repairing Permission is not, I repeat, NOT, necessary in 99.999% of all installs.

With exception of the Flash player. You need to repair permissions each time you install it. Even now, with the new Flash player 9, you get a shitload of repairs. And it's like this for years. When is Macrodobe going to fix this ?
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post #148 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
(edit) I just had to find a way to use the word "pussy" in one of my posts today. [/B]

post #149 of 181
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tonton
Hopefully, it was tea with some milk in it for the poor little pussy cat...(edit) I just had to find a way to use the word "pussy" in one of my posts today.



It was iced tea with milk... for me

But one of my USB ports on my iBook fully died today. Not related to the spillage, my USB ports are on the way out. My USB Scanner stopped working with them a few months ago. My USB Scanner still works on the PC.

One of my USB ports still works okay with external mice and thumb drives, but both USB ports do not work with the scanner.

Again this was before the spillage and before 10.4.7.

iBook is covered by AppleCare extended warranty for another 6 months, but I don't think I can get a free logic board replacement since I modded in a hard drive myself which I think they'll know. Plus hard to be without the iBook even for a few days.
post #150 of 181
Just did the 10.4.7 jump last night with SU. Had to hard restart when it was done (well maybe I didn't HAVE to, but I'm an impatient sort ). Anyway everything is working beautifully now. There is a marked quickening in Dashboard's starting (about 18 widgets i think) which is very nice.
post #151 of 181
I just wanted to pop in to share with everyone, my 5th upgrade for "Tiger," to 10.4.7, went just as smoothly as the last 4 . Maybe I have the luck of the Irish, or possibly an inordinate amount of patience, but I had no adverse "issues" to report what so ever . As in the past, and being a former M$ constituent, I did hold my breath - old habits and all of that .

In the spirit of propagating the "repair permissions" topic. I'm not bragging or complaining, but would just like to share that I started last September (2005) with 10.4.2, am now at 10.4.7 and have never repaired permissions . I do however, have complete system backups - using SuperDuper! and Carbon Copy Cloner.

Oh! I recall with one of the upgrades, I had an application that failed to work following the upgrade. The author, or developer, of the application - can't recall exactly which app it was now, jumped on it and had a fix in a very short period of time. I do recall being amazed at how quickly the fix for the app was posted .

For what it's worth - there you have it...
 iMac 24-inch 2.16 GHz, Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR SDRAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT 256MB SDRAM
250GB HDD
OSX "Lion" 10.7.1
 iBook G4 - 14"
OSX "Leopard" 10.5.8
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 iMac 24-inch 2.16 GHz, Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR SDRAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT 256MB SDRAM
250GB HDD
OSX "Lion" 10.7.1
 iBook G4 - 14"
OSX "Leopard" 10.5.8
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post #152 of 181
Well, have all of you who were so adamantly defending Apple read the other thread on AI? Apple "forgot" to include some files in the 10.4.7 install! These were probably not the cause of my problems, but they certainly do seem to be slipping in the QA department.


Whoa, duuuude.....we forgot the files...duuuuude....the files.


So, I guess Ill be rolling the dice again, once the update is posted. Get your shit together Apple.
post #153 of 181
(Sits back and waits)
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post #154 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by franksargent


IF you are installing or reinstalling to CORRECT an ISSUE

A definition of exact: Marked by strict and particular and complete accordance with fact.

A definition of ambigious: Equivocal: open to two or more interpretations; or of uncertain nature or significance; or (often) intended to mislead.

Funny thing is, both your links fully support my opinion! Thanks. 8)

But, this IS the "OFFICIAL" Apple document on updating HeX;

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303602

Follow those steps EXACTLY, especially number 7, otherwise you are DOOMED!

PS - "12 steps" and "AA" might be a facetious comment aimed at all this HeX exorcism/voodoo/meth lab cooks BS!


Actually, they don't. But your opinion on this is shortsighted, at best. While I haven't the time to look further, as I haven't been around much, I will find something soon, because Apple has given us advisement on this, no matter what you want to think. Even if THEY didn't, many other knowledgable writers in the business have, over the years, and most experienced people do know that it makes sense, even if you can get away with not doing it most of the time.

Remember that Apple does say that the installer for the upgrades do this checking by itself. They know it should be done, so they do it there.

It should be done for updates as well, even if they don't want to put most people through the process.
post #155 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Actually, they don't. But your opinion on this is shortsighted, at best. While I haven't the time to look further, as I haven't been around much, I will find something soon, because Apple has given us advisement on this, no matter what you want to think. Even if THEY didn't, many other knowledgable writers in the business have, over the years, and most experienced people do know that it makes sense, even if you can get away with not doing it most of the time.

Remember that Apple does say that the installer for the upgrades do this checking by itself. They know it should be done, so they do it there.

It should be done for updates as well, even if they don't want to put most people through the process.



More ambigious verbage, now that IS funny, VERY funny indeed!

One word. KISS!

Or more simply;

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!

And if this works for 99.999+% of the user base (and I think it does as of 10.4.3 and above), then what strategy should most people attempt? KISS!

So how many people-years are wasted following your (or others (i. e. ambiguious)) strategy (strategies)? IMHO, not a very productive use of one's time!

It's all about risk management/mitigation and contingencies, and you should ALWAYS have a contingency (i. e. backup ) IF shit happens!

What's the PDF, or CDF. Google "Rayleigh PDF" and "wave forces" or "joint PDF" and "wave forces" and then maybe you would begin to grasp my field of expertise! Do you want a 3 sigma design or a 6 sigma design? Apple may not quantify it in such terms, their's may be a more organic assestment, nontheless the dev cycle get's them into the range of a 6 sigma design (I imagine).

CLI, sudo, chown, ch***, WTF, been there, done that, like 20 YEARS AGO!

From my observations it's a dynamic universe, not a static universe, and as such, things CHANGE!

For me it's all about risk, the warfighter, and mother nature (which I think is just SLIGHTLY more ambigious than the human condition), which I think is just SLIGHTLY more important than the entire HeX user base! Thank you very much!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #156 of 181
franksargent, your TimeCube is calling. Ah well, that's what the ignore list is for.
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post #157 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by franksargent
IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!

The most flawed computer-related statement to ever repeatedly come out of people's tongues.
post #158 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
TimeCube


That all seems quite reasonable, to me.

Free your brain, from the "word world" and "assumed math".

I love the internet.
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post #159 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
franksargent, your TimeCube is calling. Ah well, that's what the ignore list is for.



I'm hoping for a 6 sigma design on the AI user's ignore lists, or haven't you figured that one out already?

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #160 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
The most flawed computer-related statement to ever repeatedly come out of people's tongues.



Obviously! I did dwell on including it for a while, but WTF, I thought I'd just leave it in for others to ponder the implications!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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