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Keynote post mortem: More (unspoken) shots at MS

post #1 of 45
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Did anyone else notice that Apple just replaced Outlook? It didn't dawn on me until after the keynote, because they came up with a different way of handling the myriad problems that Outlook tries to tackle, but Jaguar has publishable calendars and a buffed-up Mail client. That's most of Outlook right there. And, unlike MS' solution, you don't need a special, expensive (not to mention buggy, unstable and incapable of scaling) server app - or even the same server - to host these capabilities.

iChat cements a relationship with MS' archenemy, and with Sherlock 3 it's a direct shot at MSN. Also, Sherlock 3 takes some of the functionality that MS was building into IE to differentiate it from the other browsers, improves on it, and makes it browser agnostic. So you can now have an application track auctions on eBay and still use Mozilla or OmniWeb. On a larger scale, this means Apple is not sitting back and allowing MSIE to become the gatekeeper to the Web.

The iChat + Rendezvous combination is aimed squarely at office LANs.

Things are definitely getting interesting. Apple came out swinging.
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post #2 of 45
The Keynote wasn't that bad after all...

I like the news.
post #3 of 45
Yes... They aren't hooking us up this time with free stuff, but I think that strategically they have never been better off software-wise. They are putting out some pretty great stuff with Jaguar.

They're bleeding me dry though.
post #4 of 45
Right on Amorph, I was think the same thing. I know people will bitch about hardware, but this was the coolest software show I have ever seen. we are really seeing the groundwork laid for the most incredible system, based on open standards. Oh, I also don't think we should underestimate the significance of the Sony CEO. This may prove to be the beginning of one very interesting partnership.
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post #5 of 45
Tossing in my agreement here... the sheer scale of raw infrastructure they showed off was incredible.

Remember, iCal, iSync, Address Book... these aren't standalone apps. These are just front ends to industry standards behind them, such as SyncML, LDAP, and such. (Anyone know what iCal uses out of curiousity?)

Rendevous is potentially huge to boot... again, this is an open standard that anyone can go use (zeroconf.org)... Apple's just once again leading the way.

Does anyone realize what LDAP + Locations + Rendevous means for mobile computing? *drool* Walk into your workplace, your calendar is updated with your colleagues' public Work calendars, and they get yours. Walk into your house, and your family members' calendars are all synced with yours. Etc, etc, etc. It gets real fun, real fast.

Heck, I'm even okay with the $100/yr for .mac, if it can provide my family members with peace of mind for backing up critical files, virus protection and such. Does it kinda sorta suck for those relying on that for their email? Yup. Would I like to see Apple keep a minimal quota version as free? Yup. Do I think .mac sucks? Not at all.
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post #6 of 45
I thought this keynote was the best one I've ever seen.

I'm not such a hardcore speed/spec freak that I was actually (like some around here) EXPECTING dual 1.4GHz G4s (or sillier: G5s).

I'm MUCH more impressed and excited about the overall "big picture" approach and solutions Apple has their fingers in these days.

It's all coming together nicely. I'm very excited about Jaguar, as well as iCal.

And my march to finally replace my land-line with a cellular phone will probably step up and finally come to a conclusion, knowing that it all ties so nicely with my platform of choice.

I enjoyed this keynote from start to finish. Can't say that about any others, you know?
post #7 of 45
I'm glad to see that the veterans around here are realizing the value of this almost exclusively software-focused Macworld keynote. The obsession of rumormongers with hardware often misses the big picture. That's why I originally started reading Think Secret, which filled the big hardware rumors void with plenty of software reports. Hardware will always get better and faster. But as users of the eminently user-friendly Mac OS (X), we all know that brilliant software is what makes the true difference.

Apple makes most of its money from hardware sales and its hardware is quite innovative. But it is clear that Apple's innovative power is fundamentally software-driven.

I can't wait to get my hands on Jaguar and all of the fun iApps that Steve-O announced today. Maybe I'll even have to get a new PowerMac to go with that copy of Jaguar. (The new wide-screen iMac is fantastic, but I've decided that the digital hub that will replace my Rev.A iMac needs to sit under my desk. )

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post #8 of 45
Great thread! Apple does have a very compelling suite of apps and now has the infrastructure for Web Services. The future is now. I'm liking it. I know the Hardware will come when ready.
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post #9 of 45
I wonder if this is the beginning of a trend for Macworlds. "The Big Picture Show." As opposed to the hardware parade.

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post #10 of 45
So, now the question is: Will Apple advertise this? The gauntlet has been thrown and people need to know that. Everyone. Schools, IT departments, consumers, everyone. For god's sake, Apple, if you're gonna pick this fight, let people KNOW about it. I hope the gloves really come off....

edit: checking the sig...

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: torifile ]</p>
post #11 of 45
I agree too. This MWNY was about software, and it was a home run.

Jaguar is a work of art IMO. Reportedly 10.2 has some people in Redmond losing sleep, and I don't doubt it. The iApps are all killer, and Rendevouze is so cool!

A nice point that Amorph made, is that with Sherlock, Apple is removing the need for IE. Nice catch! It's clear that Apple is planning ahead for when Micro$oft pulls the plug on the MBU. Everything is in place on the Internet side, but there's still Office to contend with. I'm sure Apple has contingency plans for Office being pulled, but we aren't going to see them until it comes down to the worst.

I think it's very smart for Apple to aim these expos primarily at software rather than hardware. After another year of this, Apple may escape from the sales slump in hardware that always preceeds an expo. Also, hardware often speaks for itself, but the software needs more explaining for the press to "get it". Steve Jobs is a master showman and he's the perfect one to be informing the public about WHY Apple's software is so bitchin'.
post #12 of 45
Nice observations.

I remember reading an article on StepWise a while ago that discussed how NeXT (now assumably Apple) took a fundamentally different approach to creating complex software and making different software interact well. The gist of the article was that, as opposed to making" swiss army knife" applications like much of Microsoft's library as wel as Adobe's (and, it must be said, like Appleworks), NeXt developed many smaler more specific applications that worked well together via the pasteboard, drag-n-drop, services and the underlying frameworks. That's exactly what I'm seeing with all these small apps and technologies: Rendezvous, Bluetooth, Address Book, iCal, Mail, .mac (including its iDisk Utility and Backup Utility), iSync, iChat, Sherlock, even the System Preferences!

But here's my question: is this array of apps that support these technologies too atomized? That is, is there a risk of being or seeming to be too complicated by dealing with so many little apps to deal with? And as a side-effect of this strategy (which I generally think is a good one), is the relative lack of a hierarchy in the Dock a problem in this case too?

Like I said, I'm generally a fan of this K.I.S.S. approach to applications and interfaces, but the myriad of apps announced or previewed today got my head spinning a bit, and it might just be that I'm not perfectly clear on how, or how well they interact.
post #13 of 45
Ah, I love simple, logical threads like this.

MacWorld was wonderful in terms of attacking Microsoft. While the software side is important, I think the single most important announcement was the PC compatibility for the iPod. First, it's just going to be a huge revenue stream, because the iPod (especially at these new price points and with the new features), is the absolute best MP3 player on the market. Also, it shows a willingness (as does the collaboration with AOL on iChat) to work with other vendors (MusicMatch) to create solutions, as opposed to trying to solve everything themselves.

Plus, I just love the new integration with the iPod. I've been looking for a calendar type program for a while, but I didn't want to buy a Palm. And now I don't have to. The value of my iPod just increased enormously, because I can keep my calendar on there now, and hell, I saved $50 or $60 because now I don't need to buy a watch like I was planning. Look long term, this was a fantastic keynote, and I can't wait for my FedEx box to arrive around August 24.
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post #14 of 45
Actually I noticed a the same thing that you did Amorph but the other thing that really struck me was the blow Apple dealt out to Motorola.

Motorola is the world's 2nd largest mobile phone manufacturer yet Apple chose to team up with Sony Ericsson. I really can't imagine Motorola liked that.
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post #15 of 45
I had a huge rant about how I, at 16, can do better with Mac OS X than 5 Tech guys on Windows, but it didn't correlate very well.

Apple does has some very good friends. IBM, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, Texas Instruments, Adobe, SUN, Cisco, AOL/TimeWarner/Netscape, and countless others I cannot think of now.

They have support from Open Source and UNIX communities.

They have single source:
Pro Video--&gt;FCP and Cinema Tools
Pro DVD----&gt;DSP
Pro Audio---&gt;Sound Studio Pro (just a guess, fomerlt Logic)
------------
PowerSchool
iApps + iPod +QTBroadcaster
Rendezvous
Bluetooth

If G5s weren't delayed so much Apple would have killer combination, but the economy doesn't help much, people are being cheap and buying cheap.

I'm 16 and should be able to Admin my school network with Jaguar a week after it comes out, it would be so simple. 1 full-time tech and 2-3 part time instead of 5 full time and however many outside contractors when they can't handle it. And by next summer I should be able to get my CCNA. And I do have a life, outside of school, church and computers. I don't study for hours on end. I read the manual when I feel like it.
post #16 of 45
I agree in that it was a GREAT software-show, I just really hope they have the hardware to back it up.

Anyways, I still wait for the Apple internet browser, hopefully Chimera with shitloads of effort put in, with a, for a start, comparable feature-set (in the Apple-vs-M$ way of course, where Apple always wins). They have everything else now, just not the browser.
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post #17 of 45
Something that I read almost 20 years ago and is still true today: "You don't sell hardware. You sell the ability to run software."
post #18 of 45
While I am impressed with the Keynote, I have to agree with Corel and Microsoft. What's the point of having all these cool features if you don't aggressively advertise it? Preaching to the choir gets you 2.5 million users, now go after the rest of the world.

I've never used XP, but I know that it has a lot of features like intergrated instant messaging, multiple users, movie editing, etc. from the Madonna commercials alone. Can average PC users say that about Mac OS X? The most they could tell you is that it has something to do with water (aqua?).

Come on, push the damn ball Apple! Personally, I'm tired of having to tell everyone about Mac OS X myself.
post #19 of 45
What, you're believing that '20x more on iPod marketing than OS X marketing' quote from MS?

Personally, I don't see it.

What I do see, is every Switch ad, every print ad for a Mac model, every print pull-out, being an ad for MacOS X. What else would they be FOR?

And to my eye, those vastly outnumber the iPod ads I see, by a wide margin.

Think about it for a second. Assume that iPod and OS X marketing is *all* Apple does... the '20x' figure would mean that Apple was spending over 95% of their advertising budget on the iPod. That's just ridiculous. They're not. The figure is bogus.

Could Apple push more? You bet. Are they anywhere as bad as some poor deluded folks (*cough* MS) would have you believe? Of course not.

I mean, after all, it's not like MS gains *anything* from spreading FUD about Apple, now is it?
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post #20 of 45
i was floored by the show. other than the price of .mac, everything rocked.

the .mac was a surprise, but i'm still out on whether or not i'll pay for it. i think i'll just sit back and wait, i've got a few months to decide before it matters.

otherwise, it was a jaw droppingly good show.

this is the first time in ages i was actually impressed with software that's coming out. things are happening that are great! apple is doing amazing things with their OS. things are working great together, a nice, tight package.

the biggest deal to me though? massive use of open standards. apple is working and bringing geeks onboard left and right, they're playing nice in the industry and throwing a great gift to a wide variety of hardware producers for nothing.

they've got a smoking OS that's stable. the upgrades are coming fast and furious. the additions to the OS are both useful and relevent.

trust me, as a long time windows user, seeing all of this coming down the pipe with nothing more than .mac tacked on is like a miracle.
post #21 of 45
Apple's business model is really firming up, hardware be damned, the future looks good.
post #22 of 45
[quote]Originally posted by Telomar:
<strong>Motorola is the world's 2nd largest mobile phone manufacturer yet Apple chose to team up with Sony Ericsson. I really can't imagine Motorola liked that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The sony.com web-based games going mac was an early indicator of the talks going on. Everquest and associated Sony software must be a spillover benefit of this deal.

Sorry about the double.

[ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: serrano ]</p>
post #23 of 45
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>What, you're believing that '20x more on iPod marketing than OS X marketing' quote from MS?
Personally, I don't see it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The iPod comment was not part of my statement. This is the crux of my argument:
[quote]gordy: I've never used XP, but I know that it has a lot of features like intergrated instant messaging, multiple users, movie editing, etc., from the Madonna commercials alone. Can average PC users (not techies) say that about Mac OS X?<hr></blockquote>
If that is a valid statement, then OSX is not being market aggressively. There has been no commercial on OSX, and no OSX ads outside of Mac-centric or tech publications. Apple needs to get the word out. Hell, we know it's good...
post #24 of 45
Excellent thread! I agree wholeheartedly.

And yes Apple NEEDS to start advertising OS X. Everyone out there knows about XP. Ask anybody in the PC world about OS X and you'll just get a blank stare.

Can anybody remember the last time Apple ran great ads selling their system software?

That's too bad, because the future of OS X looks very bright.

Now where is that new hardware...
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post #25 of 45
I don't want to start a "Build Your Own Commercial" tangent -- but...

Most users know the Windows screen layout from work or home. Gray taskbar with ugly, little system tray icons. What if Joe Consumer might switch by just seeing OS X.

So...
-----
On the TV Screen: Mac OS X in full frame, iTunes being seen and playing in the background, the user has iChat and a Web browser. Dock porn. Just 20 seconds of somebody using it.

[white letters, black background, fading in and out]
"No runtime errors"
"The only blue screen is your background."
"Secure."
"Simple."
"Elegant."
[fade to white]
<a href="http://www.apple.com/switch" target="_blank">www.apple.com/switch</a>
-----

The current "Switch" campaign addresses bad Windows user experiences but don't address the bad Windows interface. (I know there's the XP theme but many people are still stuck in Win95a or Millennium).

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post #26 of 45
I thought Jaguar looked awesome. I can't wait till Spring loaded folders too! I love those spring loaded folders! It's the only thing I miss from OS 9. So glad they finally brought it into OS X.
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post #27 of 45
Great thread!!

As I watched the keynote what impressed me the most was the attitude change by Apple. I'm from the Lisa days and the original Mac. At that time Apple was IT! Then something strange happened, Steve Jobs was "forced" to leave Apple. Very, very, very strange. To this day I still believe there where some under the table deals between Bill Gates and Apple management. Since that time, Apple has had a monkey on it's back - Microsoft. When Steve came back to Apple I'm certain he wanted nothing more then to give Microsoft the boot. Steve completely surprised me when he made the deal with Microsoft and made IE the Mac's default browser. But it soon became clear to me why he had done that - to buy Apple some time. Play nice with the enemy while you get your troops in place.

Fast forward to today. Microsoft has shown it's true colors. No one trusts nor wishes to do business with Microsoft. Even it's allies are secretly cheering Apple on. In today's world of e-mail, Internet and such, Microsoft's Office Apps aren't as critical has they once where 5 years ago. If you really need to send someone a document you can just copy and paste it into an e-mail.

So what impressed me the most from the keynote? Apple is telling Microsoft to go to hell. ABOUT TIME!

On a side note about Apple's lack of advertising OS X. Are you kidding me? EVERYONE knows about OS X. They are just watching and waiting for the right time to switch. Not everything is in place just yet. But it's coming. Microsoft is so fat and ugly it can only go down, and Apple can only go up. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

Edit: Side note added.
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post #28 of 45
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>Did anyone else notice that Apple just replaced Outlook? It didn't dawn on me until after the keynote, because they came up with a different way of handling the myriad problems that Outlook tries to tackle, but Jaguar has publishable calendars and a buffed-up Mail client.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They killed my beloved Stickies, too! ... ... ...
post #29 of 45
and there is STILL no support for damn LABELS. Damn you Apple.

Nonetheless, is Apple ready for this fight? Will they be able to get the message accross to the other 95% of PC users?

I have a feeling Apple is getting a bit too cocky with MS and may want to take it a little slower for a little bit longer until everything is even more mature.
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post #30 of 45
I'm so glad to read a thread that cuts through the negativity on these boards about MWNY. There's a BIG picture here that most have missed. As a Mac user I don't care for the cost or way Apple has rolled out the .mac program and the OSX upgrade. As an AAPL shareholder I applaud the effort and see the need, but still would have liked to see a softer landing for iTools users.

[quote]
Originally posted by Amorph:
Did anyone else notice that Apple just replaced Outlook? It didn't dawn on me until after the keynote, because they came up with a different way of handling the myriad problems that Outlook tries to tackle, but Jaguar has publishable calendars and a buffed-up Mail client.
<hr></blockquote>

Can an upgrade to AppleWorks be far behind? Or even a little help with OpenOffice? When either of these two things happen who would want to pay $500 for Office?

[ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]

[ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]</p>
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post #31 of 45
Replacing Outlook with mail.app and iCal?

How do you replace a product that doesn't exist? The Mac had e-mail and calendar applications BEFORE a beefed-up mail.app and iCal, that wasn't the issue.

Hint:
Exchange

------

I really don't understand Apple's attitude with Microsoft now.

All this talk of "taking the gloves off" and such just makes me laugh. As if Apple is competition to Microsoft. As if Apple is so far ahead of Microsoft in any way that there is a real "fight" out there. And even past that, as if there even NEEDS to be a fight.

This is manufactured by Jobs and the "I hate MS more than I love my own platform" Mac-istas and for what? To sell a few more computers? Like a politician falling behind in the poll so he starts slinging mud?

It looks as if the maturity Jobs appeared to have miraculously gained when MS helped pull them out of a sticky situation is evaporating.

I remember something to the effect of...
I think it is incredibly stupid for us to believe that for Apple to survive, Microsoft has to fail."
--Macweek (May 16, 1997)

"We have to let go of a few things here. We have to let go of the notion that for Apple to win, Microsoft has to lose."
--Macworld Expo Boston keynote speech (August 6, 1997)


Following those statements were some of the best years Mac users have ever had.

Welcome back to the old-school boys.
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post #32 of 45
I think you're taking this thread and situation a bit too seriously yourself.
post #33 of 45
Not anymore seriously than anyone else, I don't think.

Just offering my perspective.
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post #34 of 45
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Not anymore seriously than anyone else, I don't think.

Just offering my perspective. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Eh, you're probably right. We do tend to take this stuff little too seriously.
post #35 of 45
Great thread indeed. You know that Apple is doing something right when people normally bitching over the stall of speed celebrating a MW without any speedchange to HD. And since I´m a software guy this was heaven.

I have been thinking about this .Mac stuff a bit and the floodwave of new small functional programs from Apple. Why not let .Mac be to software what the iMac is to hardware?

The iMac is all you need (a screen, computer, keyboard, mouse and speakers in a neat package) .Mac could be everything you need on the software side always updated (X, AW, iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, Backup, Rendevouz, iCal, etc.) and always on your desktop on a virtual HD that also holds 100MB of your own files for you and a email adress for $100 a year ("less than $1 per month per program") and free the first year after you have bought the computer. When you need a program you just moves it from the virtual folder to your local HD.

The different from today is minimal. You get all these things with you Mac when you buy it today but have to pay upgrade price. This way you pay an annual fee for all updates and unlike with MS plans you can be sure that Apple WILL update at least half the programs each year. And when the customer say well the imac is really a nice computer but what about software the salesman can say "All you can think of free first year an then just $100 per year for all updates, also to the OS" Less confusing and more up-to-date OS on most computers. A win-win for consumers and Apple
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post #36 of 45
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #37 of 45
[quote]Originally posted by Telomar:
<strong>Actually I noticed a the same thing that you did Amorph but the other thing that really struck me was the blow Apple dealt out to Motorola.

Motorola is the world's 2nd largest mobile phone manufacturer yet Apple chose to team up with Sony Ericsson. I really can't imagine Motorola liked that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It seems to me that Motorola barely even knows Apple exists, judging by their own website. Besides, as others have pointed out, Sony Ericsson is apparently the furthest ahead in terms of embracing the future.
post #38 of 45
I don't think it's really against Microsoft per se. I fell that Apple is in better shape financially than in the previous 5 years. They must break their dependance on Products that they cannot somewhat control.

I noticed this trend a few years back. Once the Apple store was created everyone lauded it at Apples response to DELL. Well that wasn't it..Apple wasn't intrested in creating a fully configurable online store it was to retain as much profit as they could.

Apple also killed High Ed sales from many Retailers. Again this helped Apple retain as much profits.

Apple Stores. Again to retain Apple profits.

Apple and the Mac as you've known it is changing rapidly. They are very much software driven and very much into controlling their destiny. Purchasing companies and killing the PC version of the app is nothing to them. Don't be fooled Apples very own self preservation is very strong.

Do I disagree with them ...in some ways but I also realize that ISV have their own Self Preservation..one that means they cannot focus entirely on one Platform and survice in many cases. I understand that and don't blame them.

Office would still be a very difficult app to replace but as for Microsoft. I'm happy to admit that Office is the only app from Microsoft that really matters to me. IE...don't care. I could live with Omniweb or Chimera. Outlook...I don't need it per se ...just it's functions. iCal or a 3rd party would work fine for me.

Apple's independance againt MS will help us in the long run. The areas that Apple must succeed in is Education, Content Creation with an emphasis on Video creation and Post Production and the consumer market. I never expect Apple to make any significant inroads into Business(Large).

I look for an eventual Apple competitor to Exchange Server. Shouldn't be that hard but you must have the client software already entrenched(mail.app)

This is going to be a FUN next Decade.
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post #39 of 45
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>I don't think it's really against Microsoft per se. I fell that Apple is in better shape financially than in the previous 5 years. They must break their dependance on Products that they cannot somewhat control.

I noticed this trend a few years back. Once the Apple store was created everyone lauded it at Apples response to DELL. Well that wasn't it..Apple wasn't intrested in creating a fully configurable online store it was to retain as much profit as they could.

Apple also killed High Ed sales from many Retailers. Again this helped Apple retain as much profits.

Apple Stores. Again to retain Apple profits.

Apple and the Mac as you've known it is changing rapidly. They are very much software driven and very much into controlling their destiny. Purchasing companies and killing the PC version of the app is nothing to them. Don't be fooled Apples very own self preservation is very strong.

Do I disagree with them ...in some ways but I also realize that ISV have their own Self Preservation..one that means they cannot focus entirely on one Platform and survice in many cases. I understand that and don't blame them.

Office would still be a very difficult app to replace but as for Microsoft. I'm happy to admit that Office is the only app from Microsoft that really matters to me. IE...don't care. I could live with Omniweb or Chimera. Outlook...I don't need it per se ...just it's functions. iCal or a 3rd party would work fine for me.

Apple's independance againt MS will help us in the long run. The areas that Apple must succeed in is Education, Content Creation with an emphasis on Video creation and Post Production and the consumer market. I never expect Apple to make any significant inroads into Business(Large).

I look for an eventual Apple competitor to Exchange Server. Shouldn't be that hard but you must have the client software already entrenched(mail.app)

This is going to be a FUN next Decade.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very good post, an interesting viewpoint that I hadn't fully elaborated or put into summary so well. Your grammar could use some work, but the content is pure gold.
art may imitate life, but life imitates tv.
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art may imitate life, but life imitates tv.
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post #40 of 45
[quote]Apple's independance againt MS will help us in the long run.<hr></blockquote>

Why more important or helpful than, say, breaking the dependence on Adobe?

[edit]

Here's my broader point:

The OS wars are over, Apple lost a LONG time ago. It will not restart the OS wars. They are over. Microsoft won.

If you/we continue to look at this as if Apple and Microsoft are real competitors fighting for market share you won't be able to see it correctly.

If Apple can provide a strong customer base to make the MacBU lots of money, all this talk is moot because MS will let them keep making money on the Mac platform.

[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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