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Apple's Mac Pro to sport modified Power Mac enclosure - Page 5

post #161 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
OK copper may be better. But aren't we discussing whether aluminum is a good conductor of heat(which it is)?

I ceded in another comment that "conductor" was a poor choice of words on my part, when I meant to say something along the lines of thermal retention.

Aluminum will heat up very quickly, but it cools down just as fast. That's why it's used a lot in bakeware rather than cookware -- where most times it's in a situation where there's surrounding or convection heat and it's just used to hold something or form a shape, as opposed to cooking it.
post #162 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
Well, having a low frequency single chip is not much of a heat load. My W8000 has two Netburst 2.8GHz chips and it's noise is a lot more tolerable than my G5.

At any rate, I haven't seen much an argument why moving the power supply for the Mac Pros would be a bad thing.

I didn't know that my argument was about it being a "bad" thing. I just said it wasn't a very elegant or apple-like thing. There's already a well-designed heat removal system in the G5 case. Why futz with it when it's not necessary, and only adds to the rear panel clutter and cord knotting?
post #163 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by minderbinder
I don't think apple can do quad for $2K. But I think they can do conroe for $1500, maybe even less if they go minitower on the low end. Apple needs speed on the high end. On the low end, price is way more important than speed - people will complain more about a base model being too expensive than it not being fast enough.

Somewhere on this board, I worked out a way to get components for a 2 x 2.00 cost about $1700 w/ decent volume discounts. Apple picks a margin between 12.5 percent and 25 percent, and that computer costs between $2000 and $2200. It'd also be the best-selling workstation ever, because Dell's margins are off the charts in the workstation market.

I have to run, but I'll re-post that config tonight.
post #164 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by zang
I ceded in another comment that "conductor" was a poor choice of words on my part, when I meant to say something along the lines of thermal retention.

Aluminum will heat up very quickly, but it cools down just as fast. That's why it's used a lot in bakeware rather than cookware -- where most times it's in a situation where there's surrounding or convection heat and it's just used to hold something or form a shape, as opposed to cooking it.

That's not correct.

Aluminum is used in cookware all of the time. It's used by itself, and it's used in conjunction with stainless steel, for protection.

The fact that aluminum heats up quickly means it is a good conductor as well. Thermal and electrical conductivity go hand in hand.

Aluminum, as a good conductor, allows the heat to quickly spread to the rest of the piece when one part is heated.

The reason why baking pans, aluminum foil, and heatsinks cool down quickly is because the metal is thin for the purpose. When metal is thin, there is is a high ratio of surface area to volume. That allows the heat to escape quickly. That will occur with any metal that is uniformly heated.

By the way, being a poor conductor does not mean that something is an insulator.

Glass is not a poor conductor, it is an insulator. Lead is not an insulator, it is a poor conductor.
post #165 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Aluminum is used in cookware all of the time. It's used by itself, and it's used in conjunction with stainless steel, for protection.

Protection from what? Aluminum and aluminum core cookware is aimed at the consumer market because it doesn't tarnish, it heats up quickly and it's lightweight. It is however, something you will rarely ever see a professional chef use on a cooktop. Anyone fresh out of culinary school will tell you that. I dare you to find me a professional chef who does use solid aluminum pans.

Quote:
Aluminum, as a good conductor, allows the heat to quickly spread to the rest of the piece when one part is heated.

If something conducts temperature change well, it works both directions. If it heats up fast, it will cool down fast. Aluminum doesn't break these rules of thermodynamics. It will not have the same kind of uniform temperature the way that Iron, Steel, Copper or other metals have.

Quote:
The reason why baking pans, aluminum foil, and heatsinks cool down quickly is because the metal is thin for the purpose. When metal is thin, there is is a high ratio of surface area to volume. That allows the heat to escape quickly. That will occur with any metal that is uniformly heated.

And "uniformly heated" is debatable. It's much harder to get an accurate uniform heating of an aluminum pan. Aluminum does not retain heat as well as other metals; that's why it's used in heatsinks and the scourge of professional chefs.

Quote:
By the way, being a poor conductor does not mean that something is an insulator.

I did not say it was an insulator.
post #166 of 301
deleted with repost.
post #167 of 301
This is an amazing discussion on cooking and thermal conductivity on a Mac forum on the new Mac Pro.

Might as well get some facts on the table with a link to some actual thermal conductivity with a little information even on cooking pot design and why a copper core can be used between stainless plates for a pot.

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/thermal/conduction/

I would bet that there are professionals who use aluminum as this is the primary metal for Calphalon. (It is anodized to provide a protective coating.) Aluminum is horrible with the acidity of many foods and should never be used with tomato sauces.

Now about the thermal design of the G5. I think it is great that Apple actually took the time to design a case to compensate for the heat load of the G5. My early Dual 2 rarely gets loud in summer and is even quieter in Winter when the house is cooler. I will guess that the Quads really benefit from the segregation and fan speed control.

It will be interesting to see what is done with the new chips and the 'lower' thermal requirements. I would love to see high performance chips in the another passively cooled 'cube' / original mac design. Will it ever happen again?
post #168 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by zang
[B]Protection from what? Aluminum and aluminum core cookware is aimed at the consumer market because it doesn't tarnish, it heats up quickly and it's lightweight. It is however, something you will rarely ever see a professional chef use on a cooktop. Anyone fresh out of culinary school will tell you that. I dare you to find me a professional chef who does use solid aluminum pans.

My oh my, you don't know much about cooking, do you?

Only the cheapest aluminum cookware is plain finish. Better quality mdels are anodized. Most high quality models, such as the All-Clad I have has a SS outer shell, a sandwitch of aluminum Aluminum, and an interior made up of SS again. Food acid, esp at high temps corrods aluminum, which is not considered to be healthy.

http://206.210.90.92/ (All-Clad)

Viking, Kitchenaid, etc, all have similar models.

The All-Clad is the most popular line of cookware in restaurants.

Copper is used on the most expensive models, but has not been shown to be better. Look to the reviews of pro level cookware in Cook's Illustrated, Fine Cooking, and elseware.

Please don't make things up. People here know too much.


Quote:
If something conducts temperature change well, it works both directions. If it heats up fast, it will cool down fast. Aluminum doesn't break these rules of thermodynamics. It will not have the same kind of uniform temperature the way that Iron, Steel, Copper or other metals have.



And "uniformly heated" is debatable. It's much harder to get an accurate uniform heating of an aluminum pan. Aluminum does not retain heat as well as other metals; that's why it's used in heatsinks and the scourge of professional chefs.

It's used because of the reasons I already gave.


Quote:
I did not say it was an insulator.

Yes, I know, Jeff said it. I mentioned it in that post because we were talking about that subject.
post #169 of 301
The reason I've always heard given for the avoidance of aluminum in professional cookware is that it's too good of a conductor, and that any hotspots in your burner/heating element translate into local hotspots in your cookware.
Slightly poorer conductors will spread hotspots out more, using this same reasoning.
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post #170 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by benzene
The reason I've always heard given for the avoidance of aluminum in professional cookware is that it's too good of a conductor, and that any hotspots in your burner/heating element translate into local hotspots in your cookware.
Slightly poorer conductors will spread hotspots out more, using this same reasoning.

That's why All-Clad (get the name?) invented the wrap around sandwich 30 years ago. Now, all other manufacturers have copied it.

It also depends upon the design itself. Good designs, such as All-Clad's, work very well. Some others, don't.

The reasoning you give is simply wrong. SS is a poor conductor, and makes poor cookware. Just the opposite of what you said happens.

If you think about it for a minute, you will see why. Poor conduction leads the spot above the flame to get hot, while the areas further away, stay relatively cool. Good conductivity allows that localized heat to spread out quickly, heating the cookware evenly.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.
post #171 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
That's why All-Clad (get the name?) invented the wrap around sandwich 30 years ago. Now, all other manufacturers have copied it...

...The reasoning you give is simply wrong. SS is a poor conductor, and makes poor cookware. Just the opposite of what you said happens.

If you think about it for a minute, you will see why. Poor conduction leads the spot above the flame to get hot, while the areas further away, stay relatively cool. Good conductivity allows that localized heat to spread out quickly, heating the cookware evenly.

I understand that, and if you read my post that's exactly what I was saying. I wasn't implying that a poor conductor immediately meant superior cookware, but I was (in a roundabout way, admittedly) trying to reconcile the point that both metals have their uses in cookware, esp. when used correctly (a la the all-clad sandwich design):

Aluminum is used for its conductivity and high specific heat, and stainless is used on the outside to start with an even heat (ref. my statement about uneven heating elements), and on the inside to prevent food contamination.

When their properties are exploited correctly, you end up with a product superior over either isolated material.

table of common metal specific heat capacities
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post #172 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by benzene
I understand that, and if you read my post that's exactly what I was saying. I wasn't implying that a poor conductor immediately meant superior cookware, but I was (in a roundabout way, admittedly) trying to reconcile the point that both metals have their uses in cookware, esp. when used correctly (a la the all-clad sandwich design):

Aluminum is used for its conductivity and high specific heat, and stainless is used on the outside to start with an even heat (ref. my statement about uneven heating elements), and on the inside to prevent food contamination.

When their properties are exploited correctly, you end up with a product superior over either isolated material.

table of common metal specific heat capacities

The SS is simply used to provide a harder more resistant surface. It is very thin, and contributes little to cooking performance, at least, according to All-Clad.

It is also magnetic SS, and presents a flat surface to an induction cooktop, for which, of course, aluminum alone won't work. I have a single "burner" commercial induction cooktop, which works better to boil water than the 15,000 BTU gas burners on my range.
post #173 of 301
[QUOTE]Originally posted by zang
My SP 1.6Ghz G5 is still as quiet as the day I bought it. Though every few months or so, I blow the dust out of the system.

As for placement of the power supply, I'd venture to say it doesn't make much difference in the G5 design, as long as it were to stay isolated and had the same airflow as it currently does....

The ATX design doesn't *require* the power supply be in a certain position, it's just put there because that's the way PC cases are designed and have been for the past 20 years or so. You could really put it anywhere in the system you wanted to, it's just a matter of routing power cabling around the inside of the case.



Just to jump in here, Zang makes some important points worth looking at further.

1. The G5 design is attractive thermally in principle because of the division of different zones and the separate control of fan speed in those different zones. Pulling air from the front straight through out the back also makes very good sense.

2. There is no PC design that I have seen, custom or stock that has really come close to the design of the G5 in terms of setting up separate thermal zones and controlling those separately.

3. There are two caveats to 1. 2. above. 1. In real-world applications some people have not liked the acoustics of their dual-G5s. 2. If the separate thermal zones are separated mainly by aluminium, then the thermal zone theory gets a bit futzed because then heat from different thermal zones leak into each other. Worst case scenario with the heat leakage from thermal zones (from the zone to the aluminium to the air in the next zone) is like a PC box where it's one glob of hot air that your trying to vent out via a rear exhaust fan and the power supply exhaust fan.

4. My final year of college/ uni was a research project at a major bio research institute so I'm kinda hooked on data. It would be beautiful to see the fluid dynamics of G5s (eg. infrared video) compared to different PC cases along with acoustic measurements at different system loads. This would/ should be the next level for people like TomsHardware and AnandTech, moving beyond the "Is it possible to get 5fps more in FEAR" type 20+ page investigations.

5. Yes. A standard ATX motherboard in a standard PC technically does NOT require the power supply to be at the top. It's just there by convention. It *has* to be at the back though because otherwise if it is in front it is blowing it's own heat INTO the casing. So anyway, in a tower, the PCI/ PCIEx card slots are at the bottom back. So, the power supply will be at the top.

6. It is fascinating that in PC land there is a lot of motherboard-software interaction that deals with the fan speeds of chassis fans, cpu fan, and gpu fans. But again, based on the general design of the PC case, is still a big glob of hot air that you are trying to get out of the case in the best manner. Tidier cables is one, side intake fans and front intake fans are another design strategy, but really, nothing close to the theory of the PowerMac G5's thermal management.

I would venture that looking into the matter closer, there is still a lot of scope in PC tower case design for optimal airflow, acoustic management, and heat management. The PowerPC G5 has taken a bold move, and PeeCee land remains as it always is, slave to convention or the latest trends.

Remember now that Apple is mainly using Intel chipsets so for Towers to save R&D they could be going with quite standard motherboard designs. You can see in the iMac and laptops how they've been able to come up with innovative internal designs. Although success is mixed with if the "its still hot" reports for the MacBook/ MacBookPro are to be believed to a certain extent.

Anyway, Apple could also do the same to come up with a really interesting internal design for the Mac Pro, but that depends on Stevie J and gang and whether they want to spend R&D on that.
post #174 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
I have a single "burner" commercial induction cooktop, which works better to boil water than the 15,000 BTU gas burners on my range.

How does that compare to a Macbook?
post #175 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
2. There is no PC design that I have seen, custom or stock that has really come close to the design of the G5 in terms of setting up separate thermal zones and controlling those separately. [/B]

Take a look at the Compaq W8000. It comes close on the theory. My SP700 as well, and it only has two large fans in the entire case. Both are older dual Xeon computers and both are designed to adequately cool 15kRPM hard drives as well. The power supplies are pretty nice that they have a fan on the PSU intake instead of the exhaust, the little noise made by that fan is very well diffused before it leaves the case.

Quote:
3. There are two caveats to 1. 2. above. 1. In real-world applications some people have not liked the acoustics of their dual-G5s. 2. If the separate thermal zones are separated mainly by aluminium, then the thermal zone theory gets a bit futzed because then heat from different thermal zones leak into each other. Worst case scenario with the heat leakage from thermal zones (from the zone to the aluminium to the air in the next zone) is like a PC box where it's one glob of hot air that your trying to vent out via a rear exhaust fan and the power supply exhaust fan.

I think the coolong in the dual G5s is more of an issue of using too many small fans. I think two large fans in push-pull like on my Compaq workstation is a lot less annoying than four small fans in push-pull because of the high pitch because the fans have to spin faster to move the same air.

Quote:
and PeeCee land remains as it always is, slave to convention or the latest trends.

That looks to be contradictory.
post #176 of 301
Cool. Yeah fan size has a big influence on pitch and various acoustic characteristics of a tower.

"PeeCee land remains as it always is, slave to convention or the latest trends."

"That looks to be contradictory."

Hmmm... interesting isn't it? Nobody is going to come out with a motherboard which has the PCI/ PCIEx slots in a different location, yet at the same time everyone is rushing to get their boards "Core compatible". Herd mentality, I guess, is what I am trying to imply.
post #177 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Hmmm... interesting isn't it? Nobody is going to come out with a motherboard which has the PCI/ PCIEx slots in a different location, yet at the same time everyone is rushing to get their boards "Core compatible". Herd mentality, I guess, is what I am trying to imply.

Why would they put their slots in a different location? Board makers are trying to sell interchangeable parts, not wind the clock to pre-Eli Whitney. There's nothing about the ATX format that prevents the application of the "zone" concept, my W8000 shows that pretty well. Unfortunately, the buyers often don't care, so it's not applied often enough due to small market demand.
post #178 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by york2600
When you have 2+ optical drives on a Mac the optical drive status shows up in the menu bar. The button ejects whatever has media in it starting with the top drive. If they're both empty it does the top. At least this is the way it worked in my old G4.

I have dual drives in my current G4 also. Not only do you get the drive option showing up in the status bar as mentioned in above post, you can also hold the option key down while hitting the eject key to eject the second drive. This way they can both be opened. Eject, top drive; Option+Eject lower drive.
post #179 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by backtomac
How does that compare to a Macbook?

It's definitely hotter. But, when it gets going at the highest "speed", it's really cooking!
post #180 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
I think the coolong in the dual G5s is more of an issue of using too many small fans. I think two large fans in push-pull like on my Compaq workstation is a lot less annoying than four small fans in push-pull because of the high pitch because the fans have to spin faster to move the same air.

Except that the G5's are pretty quiet. quieter than most every equivalent PC or workstation I've seen (or heard).

The fan speeds vary as well, so they usually aren't running at the highest speeds. Apple uses the number of fans it does because as we know, it cools each zone in the machine seperately. That contributes to the quietness.
post #181 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Except that the G5's are pretty quiet. quieter than most every equivalent PC or workstation I've seen (or heard).

The fan speeds vary as well, so they usually aren't running at the highest speeds. Apple uses the number of fans it does because as we know, it cools each zone in the machine seperately. That contributes to the quietness.

Mel,
My Quad G5 fans at the rear of the case next to all the ports NEVER spin, even during the Apple Hardware Test. Yet, the CPU temps hover around 50 degree celcius. Does this seem normal to you?
Thanks, Billy
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post #182 of 301
Looks like you actually have an Intel Core Solo chip in there instead of a Quad G5 Seriously though, you got Liquid Cooling, so......
post #183 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Except that the G5's are pretty quiet. quieter than most every equivalent PC or workstation I've seen (or heard).

I don't have a significant noise problems with Compaqs. They aren't noticeable unless the optical drive spun up. OK, at idle, the G5 isn't so bad, but any time the load exceeds 30% the fans spin up and that happens even for very short load bursts. I think it's irritating that the fans ramp up and down so often.

Quote:
The fan speeds vary as well, so they usually aren't running at the highest speeds. Apple uses the number of fans it does because as we know, it cools each zone in the machine seperately. That contributes to the quietness.

It doesn't need four small fans for two CPUs when they could have used two larger fans so they don't have to spin so fast to get the same flow. On my dual 2.5, they spin up to a pretty annoying high frequency.
post #184 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by BJNY
Mel,
My Quad G5 fans at the rear of the case next to all the ports NEVER spin, even during the Apple Hardware Test. Yet, the CPU temps hover around 50 degree celcius. Does this seem normal to you?
Thanks, Billy

Yes. That's why Apple has devoted so much space to cooling. Unless you are hardboiling the machine with constant rendering tasks that need all four cores, and are in a not so cool enviornment, cooling is simply not an issue.
post #185 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by sunilraman
Looks like you actually have an Intel Core Solo chip in there instead of a Quad G5 Seriously though, you got Liquid Cooling, so......

Don't forget that the G5 dual cores don't use much more power than the 51xx's do.

The original G5 chips used more power than the current ones. There's plenty of cooling capacity to spare.

That's why companies can offer these drive units that put two (or more) large capacity fast HD's right in front of the chip cooling path, and the reports are that the fans hardly go on more that they did without them.

With that being true, and I can attest that it is, it's too bad that Apple hasn't done this themselves.
post #186 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM
[B]I don't have a significant noise problems with Compaqs. They aren't noticeable unless the optical drive spun up. OK, at idle, the G5 isn't so bad, but any time the load exceeds 30% the fans spin up and that happens even for very short load bursts. I think it's irritating that the fans ramp up and down so often.



It doesn't need four small fans for two CPUs when they could have used two larger fans so they don't have to spin so fast to get the same flow. On my dual 2.5, they spin up to a pretty annoying high frequency.

Do you have a Compac with dual dual cores? Come back after you do, and report on the sound. I can tell you that the BOXX sounds like a tornado.

If you read my post, you would see that only two of those fans are involved in cooling the chips and memory. The other fans are for the HD's and power supply.

Two big fans wouldn't work in this design.

Fans are supposed to ramp up and down. Thet do that in properly designed PC's as well. It does cost more to use those sensing circuits and variable power supplies, but it's better. Most PC's don't use them. Either the fans are on full blast all the time when they aren't needed, ot they just go off, and then on at full speed.

I haven't found the fans to be a problem at 30%, 60% is when they start to stay on for more time.
post #187 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by melgross
Do you have a Compac with dual dual cores? Come back after you do, and report on the sound. I can tell you that the BOXX sounds like a tornado.

I don't have a quad, but this is with comparing a two processor unit with another two processor unit. The Compaq does have a thermal control, but it doesn't call attention to itself by ramping up at a second's notice.

If the quads did change to two fans for the CPU area, then that is a change over previous models.
post #188 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Maybe not, but that's what the source says.

While it's possible that the power connector could still be on the bottom (with a cable inside the case), when it came to drawing the mockups I decided to put the connector on top. The information received only specifed that the power supply was relocated to the top of the case.

Replacing the power supply in a current Power Mac G5 requires the technician to remove:

Front and rear fans
Front speaker
All PCI Express cards
Airport and Bluetooth card
Front panel board
Processor
Logic board

On a G5 Quad system, this comes to nearly 50 screws! Yes, you read that right. 50 screws just to replace a damn power supply, not to mention the time and space required to remove all those other parts and then to put them all back in.

8 years ago, I used to laugh at those beige PC boxes for having everything screwed in and requiring several dozen screws in order to take those PCs apart. But now the joke is on Apple, considering the difficulty of taking apart the latest iMac and Power Mac G5. I don't care which side of the case Apple puts the power supply in, as long as it doesn't require technicians to totally strip apart the damn computer in order to replace internal components.
post #189 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Haggar
Replacing the power supply in a current Power Mac G5 requires the technician to remove:

Front and rear fans
Front speaker
All PCI Express cards
Airport and Bluetooth card
Front panel board
Processor
Logic board

On a G5 Quad system, this comes to nearly 50 screws!

Oh my! Well that just pleads my case that the case needs to be more user friendly. They had a good thing going with the original iMac G5, then they really fucked it up with the newer design. These types of designs must cost Apple lots of time and money for labor replacing parts for warranty work.
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post #190 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcaro

I like the idea of the second optical drive bay for future upgrading. I wish / hope that they can find a way to increase the internal HD bays to at least 3 instead of just 2. Also I wish / hope that there are 2 FW400 ports on the back + the one on the front.

jbcaro


I want 4! They have more room in this one, they may as well add more bays.
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post #191 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead

I want 4! They have more room in this one, they may as well add more bays.

I keep reminding people that third parties have been adding the ability to add two ot even three more drives to the G5 Powermac ever since it first came out, with no ill effects.

Apple may have their reasons not to, but it can be done even now.
post #192 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

I keep reminding people that third parties have been adding the ability to add two ot even three more drives to the G5 Powermac ever since it first came out, with no ill effects.

Apple may have their reasons not to, but it can be done even now.

The issue I have with those is that they are pretty expensive. The cheapest I have seen is $99, and that's not including the drives or the (S)ATA card.
post #193 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

The issue I have with those is that they are pretty expensive. The cheapest I have seen is $99, and that's not including the drives or the (S)ATA card.

Some have. But to anyone who can spend what it takes to buy a tower, a seperate monitor, plenty of RAM, and the extra HD's, the $99 for the cradle, and another $79 for the SATA card isn't much to add.

For a business, it's just pennies. For a hobbyest it's addiction. For someone just going on the web, well, they're better off with an iMac, or a Mini anyway.
post #194 of 301
back to the hard drive bays again [sigh]
edit: this comment not directed at anyone in particular
post #195 of 301
I don't think the enclosures will change appearance-wise because the banner hasn't shown them differently.
post #196 of 301
Yeah dude, the banner shows the same ol' boring PowerMaco G5 enclosure
post #197 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman

Yeah dude, the banner shows the same ol' boring PowerMaco G5 enclosure

That doesn't matter. When they introduced the G5 there were G4's on banners. 8)

But I don't think they are going to change it until the next ones anyway. They have not changed anything else yet. Which s where that modified enclosure story comes from. Some common sense, considering the odds of the rest of the lineup, and a little bullshit thrown on top for good measures.
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post #198 of 301
Heh. We'll see. The suspense is already fracking killing me. Good thing I'm going to go for a short run before lunch to clear my mind. Placebo, I am a new member of OMG WWDC OMG!!

Re: Enclosures: Yes, we may see a slightly re-jigged enclosure. I have been too harsh on Jon Ives and team, yesteday for the first fracking time I finally saw a MacBook black and white. It has been subtly refined and rejigged for widescreen and it is sexy and trendy. Let's see a little bit of Ives' fairy dust on the Mac Pros, yeah? Just some subtle rejigging, all I ask. Just a bit of fairy dust. Just a bit.
post #199 of 301
Can we please complain about the hard drive bays here? I need at least 4 in this thing. I think I'm gonna cry if there's only two.. AGAIN
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post #200 of 301
Keeping the same enclosure doesn't mean keeping it the same internally. Apple should be able to cut down on cooling, and PC boards tend to have 4+ SATA (or SATA II) connectors built-in.
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