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post #121 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
No.

So if your daughter was pregnant at 12, you would want her to give birth to a baby likely to have many problems, or die trying.
post #122 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
So if your daughter was pregnant at 12, you would want her to give birth to a baby likely to have many problems, or die trying.

What makes you assume that the baby is "likely to have many problems"? What does that mean exactly? What make you assume she would "die trying"?

You're reaching for the typical edge cases (extremely young, problems for baby, life threat to mother)...please support the underlying presuppositions that these are actually even likely, let alone certainties.
post #123 of 184
She's fucking 12!
post #124 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
She's fucking 12!

Well, getting emotional doesn't serve any purpose.

Was she raped? Incest? Consensual sex?

( I'll give you the same deal I gave hardeehar...I'll give you rape, incest and life of mother...and you give me the other 95% of the abortions. )

P.S. I would be quite shocked if either of my daughters got pregnant at 12 anyway. So this a is so utterly hypothetical it is ridiculous. In fact...if you want to ask what I would do, then the scenario has to match my circumstances. In my case, it is highly unlikley that that my girls will become pregnant outside of marriage. My wife and I consistently, repeatedly and in age-appropriate ways communicate to our kids the following message: 1) sexual intimacy in all of its forms is reserved for a committed marital relationship, 2) sexual intimacy outside of this context carries with it a wide variety of serious risks including an unwanted pregnancy before they are emotionally, mentally and financially able to handle it, sexually transmitted diseases (some of which are potentially terminal), as well as mental, emotional and relational strife.
post #125 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Just because both are legal doesn't make them the same thing.

I said that they are both legal in the eyes of the law, not that they are the same concepts. It seems like you're just trying to find things to argue about in this thread. I'm sure there's enough to disagree about that you don't need to concoct new ones.
Quote:
Hard to find anything that isn't applying specifically to abortion (I don't read that as evidence that this is the only issue where consent is a question...only that it is the most talked about thing...if my kid is going in for an appendectomy...no one is likely to raise a quibble over informing me and getting my consent), however:

Look, the article I posted suggested that for most related issues, parental involvement is not required. The exception is abortion, where anti-abortion forces have gotten parental involvement laws passed. The courts have held that parental involvement laws are fine, as long as provisions are made for a judicial bypass for unusual circumstances. These facts directly contradict the idea that you don't need parental involvement for abortion but you do for everything else. Exactly the opposite appears to be the case.
post #126 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
What makes you assume that the baby is "likely to have many problems"? What does that mean exactly? What make you assume she would "die trying"?

You're reaching for the typical edge cases (extremely young, problems for baby, life threat to mother)...please support the underlying presuppositions that these are actually even likely, let alone certainties.

Granted, 12 is extremely young, however, since you asked about problems for the baby and mother in a teen pregnancy....

* March of Dimes
* Womens Health Channel

...lots more, just google "teen pregnancy".
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post #127 of 184
Thread Starter 
Ok this thread has degenerated and gone WAY off-topi. I started it about pervy whackos in the Low Countries not Fundie whackos in the US.

BUT, I am a tolerant guy so if we have to go down this road then for God's sake let's do it properly. Point one:

The issue is purely a religious one - that is to say that the position of Chris (which is representative of a specific view which is ubiquitous [God help us]) is purely underpinned by religious belief. It is as simple as that: this doesn't make it wrong (other things do that) but it DOES mean that this is the basis of it and we should argue from that position as it is the real one rather than from any smoke and mirrors.

So, now we are in the realms of theology, this position can be easily demolished. As pointed out above, the OT God is certainly more in favour of gratuitous infanticide than against it but there are also very sound theological reasons why it is a crock of horse-dung. I just can't be bothered to enter a dialogue of the deaf in outlining them.

We should know that this is the case though. Carry on....
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post #128 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
It is treating them like adults and giving them adult decisions to make.

You can give someone an adult decision to make and not be treating them like an adult. Letting children make what are typically adult decisions, only because you're afraid that not giving them those choices means they'll do something stupid or injurious, do something threatening to their own health or public health, is hardly treating those children like adults.

Even if you're stubbornly going to insist "given adult decision = treated like an adult", regardless of context or motivation, that fact that these contexts are typically as narrow as possible does not argue well for any overall trend to start adulthood at lower and lower ages.
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post #129 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Ummm...no...I mean: Why are we always so content with treating symptoms rather than root causes in our culture?

Where do you see that only symptoms are being treated? What are these "root causes" you think are at fault, and where is the failure to address them? How feasible would it be to address them? How thorough would it be to address these "root causes", and if such treatment wouldn't be 100% effective, wouldn't that leave the need to sometimes simply deal with symptoms too?
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post #130 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I said that they are both legal in the eyes of the law, not that they are the same concepts. It seems like you're just trying to find things to argue about in this thread.

No. I thought...earlier...you had said they were the same. I guess I misunderstood your post.

Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
These facts directly contradict the idea that you don't need parental involvement for abortion but you do for everything else. Exactly the opposite appears to be the case.

I said that parental consent is required for nearly every medical procedure for a minor. Abortion should be no exception.
post #131 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
You can give someone an adult decision to make and not be treating them like an adult.

Um...no.

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Letting children make what are typically adult decisions, only because you're afraid that not giving them those choices means they'll do something stupid or injurious, do something threatening to their own health or public health, is hardly treating those children like adults.

So giving them the choice is treating them like an adult?

Which is it now?
post #132 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Where do you see that only symptoms are being treated? What are these "root causes" you think are at fault, and where is the failure to address them? How feasible would it be to address them? How thorough would it be to address these "root causes", and if such treatment wouldn't be 100% effective, wouldn't that leave the need to sometimes simply deal with symptoms too?

Well, let's try and see...

1. Kids have sex
2. Kids get pregnant
3. Kids don't want to talk to Mom and Dad about it
4. Kids want and abortion

Solution: Give kids the right to get an abortion without talking to Mom or Dad.

What might the "root cause" be here? Think real hard. No...really...concentrate...focus. See if you can figure it out.
post #133 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well, let's try and see...

1. Kids have sex
2. Kids get pregnant
3. Kids don't want to talk to Mom and Dad about it
4. Kids want and abortion

Solution: Give kids the right to get an abortion without talking to Mom or Dad.

What might the "root cause" be here? Think real hard. No...really...concentrate...focus. See if you can figure it out.

How about:

1. Kids have sex
2. Sane people marginalize Fundies to the point of ridicule and show them for the loons they are
3. Sex education starts like in a civilized society though set back 2000 years.
4. Everyone is ok and 80% of problems are diminished.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #134 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
* March of Dimes

Quote:
Teen mothers are more likely than mothers over age 20 to give birth prematurely (before 37 completed weeks of pregnancy). In 2002, the 7,315 girls under age 15 who gave birth were more than twice as likely to deliver prematurely than women ages 30 to 34 (21 vs. 9 percent).2 Babies born too soon face an increased risk of newborn health problems and even death, as well as lasting disabilities.

OK. Fair enough. But why? Is it because of:

Quote:
Teens too often have poor eating habits, neglect to take their vitamins, and may smoke, drink alcohol and take drugs, increasing the risk that their babies will be born with health problems.

Quote:
Pregnant teens are more likely to smoke than pregnant women over age 25.

Quote:
Pregnant teens are least likely of all maternal age groups to get early and regular prenatal care.

Quote:
Three million teens are affected by sexually transmitted diseases annually, out of a total of 12 million cases reported. These include chlamydia (which can cause sterility), syphilis (which can cause blindness, maternal death, and death of the infant) and HIV (the virus which causes AIDS, which may be fatal to the mother and infant).

Quote:
Teen mothers are more likely to drop out of high school than girls who delay childbearing.

Quote:
With her education cut short, a teenage mother may lack job skills, making it hard for her to find and keep a job. A teenage mother may become financially dependent on her family or on public assistance.

Quote:
Teens may not have good parenting skills, or have the social support systems to help them deal with the stress of raising an infant.

Quote:
A child born to an unmarried teenage high school dropout is 10 times as likely as other children to be living in poverty at ages 8 to 12.

Quote:
A child born to a teenage mother is 50 percent more likely to repeat a grade in school, and is more likely to perform poorly on standardized tests and drop out before finishing high school.

All of those are preventable without an abortion. This one requires more explanation as to its cause:

Quote:
A teenage mother is at greater risk than women over age 20 for pregnancy complications such as premature labor, anemia and high blood pressure.

Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
* Womens Health Channel

Quote:
Teenage mothers are less likely to gain adequate weight during their pregancy, leading to low birthweight, which is associated with infant and childhood disorders and a high rate of infant mortality.

Quote:
Teenage mothers tend to have poor eating habits and are less likely to take recommended daily multivitamins to maintain adequate nutrition during pregnancy. They are also more likely to smoke, drink, or take drugs during pregnancy, which can cause health problems for the baby.

Quote:
Teenage mothers are less likely to seek regular prenatal care.

Quote:
Children born to teenage mothers are less likely to receive proper nutrition, health care, and cognitive and social stimulation.

Quote:
Children born to teenage mothers are at greater risk for abuse and neglect.

Quote:
Boys born to teenage mothers are 13% more likely to be incarcerated.

Quote:
Girls born to teenage mothers are 22% more likely to become teenage mothers.

Quote:
Teenage mothers are more likely to drop out of school and only about one-third obtain a high school diploma.

All of those is preventable without an abortion.

NOTE: I am not advocating teen pregnancy. Far from it. But it is also not the end of the world.
post #135 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
How about:

1. Kids have sex
2. Sane people marginalize Fundies to the point of ridicule and show them for the loons they are
3. Sex education starts like in a civilized society though set back 2000 years.
4. Everyone is ok and 80% of problems are diminished.

How about you identify the "root cause" is the sequence I presented instead of fabricating some irrational, over-emotionalized rant?

P.S. I'll assume from your use of the word "fundie" in this context, that your definition of a "fundie" is anyone that believes: a) life begins at conception, b) ending that life is wrong, and c) young people (especially) should avoid some of the potentially negative consequences of pre-marital sex by practicing abstinence until marriage.
post #136 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
All of those is preventable without an abortion.

I don't think anyone was saying that all of these are preventable WITH an abortion. I was responding to your reply...

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
What makes you assume that the baby is "likely to have many problems"? What does that mean exactly? What make you assume she would "die trying"?

You're reaching for the typical edge cases (extremely young, problems for baby, life threat to mother)...please support the underlying presuppositions that these are actually even likely, let alone certainties.

Quote:

NOTE: I am not advocating teen pregnancy. Far from it. But it is also not the end of the world.

Tell that to a pregnant 16 year old who has heard all her life that she must not have sex until marriage and that it is a sin.....and now must tell her parents.
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post #137 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
I don't think anyone was saying that all of these are preventable WITH an abortion. I was responding to your reply...

Yes...but, if you recall, my response was to this:

Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
So if your daughter was pregnant at 12, you would want her to give birth to a baby likely to have many problems, or die trying.

Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
Tell that to a pregnant 16 year old who has heard all her life that she must not have sex until marriage and that it is a sin.....and now must tell her parents.

Fair enough. That girl will be in the position of realizing that her parents were right about some of the consequences of pre-marital sex. Just the same...having the baby isn't the end of the world. It is, perhaps, a change in direction from previous plans. That happens.
post #138 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
So giving them the choice is treating them like an adult?

So it is a right? So it isn't a right?

Grow the f*ck up and learn to deal with natural human language without being such a goddam annoying twerp about it. You are so pathetically eager to think you're going to show someone "Hah, hah! You aren't being consistent and I caught you!" that you blow up the most piddling thing, even if you have to invent it in your mind, and try to make a big deal about.

I do not need to work with your narrow, inflexible, context-free meanings of words and phrases. If you don't understand what I mean, ask for clarification. When you get that clarification, deal with it.

I'm flying a bit off the handle hear, so if a moderately feels the need to put the smack down on me, fine. I can at least plead that I've been more than amply provoked.
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Peter came out and gave us medals
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post #139 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Grow the f*ck up and learn to deal with natural human language without being such a goddam annoying twerp about it. You are so pathetically eager to think you're going to show someone "Hah, hah! You aren't being consistent and I caught you!" that you blow up the most piddling thing, even if you have to invent it in your mind, and try to make a big deal about.



P.S. If people want to dance around with semantics about things...I am going to call them on it. Giving someone adult choices and decisions is "treating them like and adult". Not sure what is so hard to grok about this...or even why anyone would try to avoid saying it.

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
If you don't understand what I mean, ask for clarification.

I did that once...and got slapped around for it.

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
I can at least plead that I've been more than amply provoked.

Of course you can.
post #140 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla

Fair enough. That girl will be in the position of realizing that her parents were right about some of the consequences of pre-marital sex.

I see, so in other words, "Nya, nya, told ya so."
Quote:
Just the same...having the baby isn't the end of the world. It is, perhaps, a change in direction from previous plans. That happens.

Yes, so you keep saying, but somehow I think a teen pregnancy is PERHAPS, a bit more than "a change in direction from previous plans".
"Oh honey? Before you leave for your golf game...I forgot to tell you. Susie needs to be dropped off at soccer practice." That's a change in direction from previous plans.
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post #141 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
I see, so in other words, "Nya, nya, told ya so."

Not at all. Mature people don't do that.

Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
Yes, so you keep saying, but somehow I think a teen pregnancy is PERHAPS, a bit more than "a change in direction from previous plans".
"Oh honey? Before you leave for your golf game...I forgot to tell you. Susie needs to be dropped off at soccer practice." That's a change in direction from previous plans.

Whatever. It isn't the end of the world. Stop pretending it is.
post #142 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Whatever. It isn't the end of the world. Stop pretending it is.

That depends on what layer of the social strata you reside at.
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post #143 of 184
The root problem is "kids have sex". Now, why would any sane, informed kid ever have consensual unprotected sex?
post #144 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
The root problem is "kids have sex".

Bingo.

Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Now, why would any sane, informed kid ever have consensual unprotected sex?

Not knowing or taking seriously the consequences of their actions?
post #145 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Whatever. It isn't the end of the world. Stop pretending it is.

I don't think it is the end of the world at all. I also don't think that it is the end of the world if that 16 year old were able to get an abortion without having to tell her parents.
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post #146 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
I also don't think that it is the end of the world if that 16 year old were able to get an abortion without having to tell her parents.

Well. Perhaps not. But it might be something...just possibly...that damages that relationship. In addition...it keeps the parents in the dark (and posisbly the child in peril) should any complications (physical, mental or emotional) arise from it. But, let's not concern ourselves which trivialities.
post #147 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Bingo.

The root problem is that kids have sex!? Oh! Who'd have thought of that!?

So all we have to do to solve the problem, once and for all, is make sure kids never have sex! That's so easy! Why didn't anyone think of that!?
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post #148 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
The the root problem is that kids have sex!? Oh! Who'd have thought of that!?

So all we have to do to solve the problem, once and for all, is make sure kids never have sex! That's so easy! Why didn't anyone think of that!?

Your sarcasm is cute and clever...but not very useful.

You said:

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
What are these "root causes" you think are at fault, and where is the failure to address them?

I answered. If you don't like the answer, that's not my fault.
post #149 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well. Perhaps not. But it might be something...just possibly...that damages that relationship.

I see, unlike taking an unwanted pregnancy to full term?
Quote:
In addition...it keeps the parents in the dark...

So a parent's rights always win out over the child's?
Quote:
...(and posisbly the child in peril) should any complications (physical, mental or emotional) arise from it.

Yes, especially if that child gets a "back alley" abortion.

Quote:
But, let's not concern ourselves which trivialities.

On the contrary, I don't think there is anything trivial about unwanted pregnancy or abortion.
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post #150 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
I see, unlike taking an unwanted pregnancy to full term?

Hmmm...having a baby is the end of the world.

Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
So a parent's rights always win out over the child's?

Who is responsible for the care of minor children?

Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
Yes, especially if that child gets a "back alley" abortion.

But abortion is legal. Why would they do that?

Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
On the contrary, I don't think there is anything trivial about unwanted pregnancy or abortion.

If that is what I was sarcastically calling trivial...this statement would be...well...relevant.
post #151 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well, getting emotional doesn't serve any purpose.

Was she raped? Incest? Consensual sex?

( I'll give you the same deal I gave hardeehar...I'll give you rape, incest and life of mother...and you give me the other 95% of the abortions. )

P.S. I would be quite shocked if either of my daughters got pregnant at 12 anyway. So this a is so utterly hypothetical it is ridiculous. In fact...if you want to ask what I would do, then the scenario has to match my circumstances. In my case, it is highly unlikley that that my girls will become pregnant outside of marriage. My wife and I consistently, repeatedly and in age-appropriate ways communicate to our kids the following message: 1) sexual intimacy in all of its forms is reserved for a committed marital relationship, 2) sexual intimacy outside of this context carries with it a wide variety of serious risks including an unwanted pregnancy before they are emotionally, mentally and financially able to handle it, sexually transmitted diseases (some of which are potentially terminal), as well as mental, emotional and relational strife.

Perhaps if you really really brainwash your kids to be shit-scared of you, to lose their personality, and to really scare the crap out of them and turn then into humanless slaves to fear, it might work, but in truthfulness your daughters are more likely to get into trouble than most.
post #152 of 184
Thread Starter 
I have a theory that Christians are so scared of sex - as a 'sin' it is the defining leitmotif of the abomination they have perpetrated in Christ's name - because it is the moment of greatest intimacy. The moment when one is actually 'what one is' and of course they are not real so they fear they will be exposed.

Seriously, think about it, all else stems from this.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #153 of 184
It is worst than that though Sego... It would be fine if they took their fear of sex and applied it to their own life, but they have gone to the next level and are trying to get everyone as afraid of sex as they are...
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post #154 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I answered. If you don't like the answer, that's not my fault.

What good is pointing out an insolvable problem as a "root cause", especially doing so as if it's something everyone else is failing to look at? Thank you, Captain Obvious. Where we would be without you?

No, I mistakenly gave you the benefit of the doubt that you might try to say something useful. My bad.

The best you can do it reduce teen pregnancy and teen sex, you will never stop it. So you'll always need to deal with the aftermath of the sex and pregnancy which will happen. What's your solution? Keep the bad outcomes as bad as possible so the can be used as colorful negative examples?

It's either that, or "treat the symptoms" -- the thing you seem to sneer at as if it's the opposite, not them complement, of dealing with the "root causes".
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
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Peter came out and gave us medals
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post #155 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Hmmm...having a baby is the end of the world.

You're repeating yourself again.
Quote:

Who is responsible for the care of minor children?

Why the parents, of course. I guess this means that this gives them final say over the minor's body? Something I disagree with in this case. But hey, they're not that different from those that refuse to take their children to a doctor for treatment in order to save their life, because "it's in God's hands". (Sorry, even further OT, I know)
Quote:

But abortion is legal. Why would they do that?

Perhaps because they don't want their parents to know they are pregnant and cannot get the proper medical procedure done without their parents knowing it.
Quote:

If that is what I was sarcastically calling trivial...this statement would be...well...relevant.

I got your sarcasm, however, it seemed to me you thought *I* was thinking those things were trivial. I think it is relevant you know that I don't.
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post #156 of 184
Yes, they like the rest of us probably would prefer to have sex than endlessly masturbate themselves over Jesus. Perhaps its a problem with accepting being human.
post #157 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
What good is pointing out an insolvable problem as a "root cause",

And that presupposition, perhaps, is the real problem.

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
The best you can do it reduce teen pregnancy and teen sex,

But we don't even do that. In fact, just the opposite.

Oh well. Enough time spent solving the world's problems.

\
post #158 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
Why the parents, of course.

So, should the parents be informed of and have a say in all medical care given to the minors for which they are responsible?
post #159 of 184
IIRC wasnt the biggest % of murder, teen pregnancy, divorce etc etc amongst the population in those Bible bashing red states?

Seems like trying to force people to behave in a non-human manner eventually causes them stress and anxiety which causes them to flip out and become greater 'sinners' than average.

Must be that being a Christian is to have morbid contempt for being human.
post #160 of 184
It actually is a social problem in Red States more so than in Blue states...
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