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post #161 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla

But we don't even do that. In fact, just the opposite.

Ahem.
Quote:

Planned Parenthood
Between 1990 and 2000, the national teen pregnancy rate fell 27 percent, from 117 to 84.5 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 1519 (Abma et al., 2004; National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, 2003b). Seventy-five percent of this decline is a result of improved contraceptive use and the use of more effective contraceptive methods among sexually active teenagers. Another 25 percent of this decline is attributable to increased abstinence (Advocates for Youth, 2004; Boonstra, 2002)...

AdvocatesForYouth.org
Since 1991, U.S. teenage pregnancy, abortion, and birth rates have declined steadily in every age and racial/ethnic group.[1,2,3] Teenage birth rates declined in every state as well as in the District of Columbia and the Virgin Islands.[4]...

Guttmacher Institute
Rates of pregnancy, birth and abortion among U.S. teenagers continued their downward
trend in 2000 (Table 1). Nationwide, the teenage pregnancy rate declined by 2% between
1999 and 2000 (from 85.7 to 83.6 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 1519). From 1986
to 2000, the rate dropped by 22% and, more importantly, fell by 28% since peaking in
1990.
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post #162 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
It actually is a social problem in Red States more so than in Blue states...

Who cares what color states have which problems here? Seems completely irrelevant. But...I suppose it is fun for some odd reason.
post #163 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
Ahem.

Ahem.

First:

Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
The best you can do it reduce teen pregnancy and teen sex,

Then:

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
But we don't even do that. In fact, just the opposite.

And then...to "disprove" this statement, we have:

Quote:
Between 1990 and 2000, the national teen pregnancy rate fell 27 percent, from 117 to 84.5 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 1519 (Abma et al., 2004; National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, 2003b). Seventy-five percent of this decline is a result of improved contraceptive use and the use of more effective contraceptive methods among sexually active teenagers.

OK. Whatever.
post #164 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
And that presupposition, perhaps, is the real problem.

It's not a presupposition, it's an observation. Let's temper that by say "so far unsolvable". So, what's your recommendation to try next? Abstinence-only education over and over again, trying different literature and inspirational tricks each time, until you get it "right", and with no back-up plan in the meantime for what experience teaches us will almost certainly be an ill-fated effort?

Oh, and of course, we have to view every single thing other than abstinence-only not as complementary or back-up approaches, but as the undoing of abstinence-only, always blame abstinence-only's failings on not being sufficiently committed to the purest, unchallenged by any other means abstinence-only message. Until we've tried raising children who've never, ever heard of anything but that pure no-sex message, utterly shielded from the slightest possible corrupting influences, and until (to really make it work, after all) we've pumped up that message with The Good Word of the Bible and Salvation through Jesus Christ, well then... we haven't really tried to get at "the root of the problem" until then, huh?
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We were once so close to heaven
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post #165 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Ahem.

First:
quote:
Originally posted by shetline
The best you can do it reduce teen pregnancy and teen sex,



Then:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
But we don't even do that. In fact, just the opposite.


And then...to "disprove" this statement, we have:

Between 1990 and 2000, the national teen pregnancy rate fell 27 percent, from 117 to 84.5 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 1519 (Abma et al., 2004; National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, 2003b). Seventy-five percent of this decline is a result of improved contraceptive use and the use of more effective contraceptive methods among sexually active teenagers.

OK. Whatever.

LOL, Well that wasn't the response I expected. But yeah, that pretty much disproves it. Was there somethiing in that quote you underlined that you didn't understand?
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"Gawd, even white trash feel sorry for me."
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post #166 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by dac0nvu
LOL, Well that wasn't the response I expected. But yeah, that pretty much disproves it. Was there somethiing in that quote you underlined that you didn't understand?

The quote says nothing about reducing teen sex...only about increased use of contraceptives.

Jeez.
post #167 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
It's not a presupposition, it's an observation. Let's temper that by say "so far unsolvable". So, what's your recommendation to try next? Abstinence-only education over and over again, trying different literature and inspirational tricks each time, until you get it "right", and with no back-up plan in the meantime for what experience teaches us will almost certainly be an ill-fated effort?

Oh, and of course, we have to view every single thing other than abstinence-only not as complementary or back-up approaches, but as the undoing of abstinence-only, always blame abstinence-only's failings on not being sufficiently committed to the purest, unchallenged by any other means abstinence-only message. Until we've tried raising children who've never, ever heard of anything but that pure no-sex message, utterly shielded from the slightest possible corrupting influences, and until (to really make it work, after all) we've pumped up that message with The Good Word of the Bible and Salvation through Jesus Christ, well then... we haven't really tried to get at "the root of the problem" until then, huh?

One cannot teach abstinence and chastity to the youth and then hand out a condom or put the child on birth control and expect the abstinence message to be taken seriously." ~ Maria Meyers, M.D.

As far as your (and other's) rants about Christianity, the Bible and God...curiously I haven't invoked those once in this thread. Must be that you have run out of anything real to say, so let's erect a straw man and start pelting it with darts.

You guys crack me up.
post #168 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The quote says nothing about reducing teen sex...only about increased use of contraceptives.

Jeez.

So what are you rallying against, sex or pregnancy?
post #169 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
One cannot teach abstinence and chastity to the youth and then hand out a condom or put the child on birth control and expect the abstinence message to be taken seriously." ~ Maria Meyers, M.D.

One cannot teach abstinence and chastity to the youth. Period

Because once you have gone through puberty, life becomes one long mission to fuck, and fuck often. Infact, if we didn't evolve this trait, you wouldn't be here to argue about it.

So you might as well do the best thing under these circumstances and hand out the rubbers and advice.
post #170 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
One cannot teach abstinence and chastity to the youth and then hand out a condom or put the child on birth control and expect the abstinence message to be taken seriously." ~ Maria Meyers, M.D.

As far as your (and other's) rants about Christianity, the Bible and God...curiously I haven't invoked those once in this thread. Must be that you have run out of anything real to say, so let's erect a straw man and start pelting it with darts.

You guys crack me up.

So you're being deceitful and slimy again. So you have a set of moral issues that are derived from a source which we all fully know what it is, and yet if we bring this up, you suddenly start to deny Jesus. Im sure there is a biblical story about this.
post #171 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
The quote says nothing about reducing teen sex...only about increased use of contraceptives.

Jeez.

Woops, my bad. I failed to notice that you (conveniently?) failed to copy the entire quote...that I originally quoted. Here it is again in its entirety.

Quote:
Planned Parenthood
Between 1990 and 2000, the national teen pregnancy rate fell 27 percent, from 117 to 84.5 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 1519 (Abma et al., 2004; National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, 2003b). Seventy-five percent of this decline is a result of improved contraceptive use and the use of more effective contraceptive methods among sexually active teenagers. Another 25 percent of this decline is attributable to increased abstinence (Advocates for Youth, 2004; Boonstra, 2002)...

Now, go back and read the last sentence again. The one that begins with "Another 25 percent..."

Increased abstinence = reduced sex

Do we need to debate that???
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"That's true, that's very very true."
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post #172 of 184
It just occured to me the real reason for this

If none of our teenagers are virgins, God won't be able to impregnate the next 'Mary' for the second coming of Christ.

Bingo!
post #173 of 184
Chris: Am I right in reading that what you want to do is significantly lower the number of teenagers having sex?
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post #174 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
you suddenly start to deny Jesus

Stop lying.
post #175 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Chris: Am I right in reading that what you want to do is significantly lower the number of teenagers having sex?

I believe the root cause of a number of the problems discussed here (from abortion, to kids not wanting to tell Mom and Dad, to STDs, and on and on) is kids having sex a) before they are emotionally, mentally and financially able to deal with it on their own, b) outside of a long-term, committed, monogomous relationship (marriage) and, possibly/probably, c) with multiple partners.

You stop this and you blast a way a whole set of problems all at once.

That's what I am saying.

So, more briefly, yes.

I am also saying that we (as a society and as adults) have simply abdicated on this ("well, they're gonna do it anyway!") instead of stepping up to our responsibility to teach kids the dire, negative consequences if they choose this behavior...and instead have simply made it easier to do it by muting (though not really eliminating) the consequences...shifting them, if you will, in space and time.

The lazy "well, they're gonna do it anyway" attitude is the root of all this. We don't say this about many other things that people (whatever age) "are gonna do anyway".

It really isn't such a radical idea. Some wish to shrink from the challenge (and call it, erroneously, "being practical"). I don't.
post #176 of 184
Chris, it is better for children to know the risks and there likelihoods and make the judgement themselves than it is to lie to them suggesting that they WILL get aids and they WILL get pregnant.

The problem is that there are some people out there who want the government to only sanction education programs that profoundly exaggerate or otherwise only focus on the risks.
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post #177 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I believe the root cause of a number of the problems discussed here (from abortion, to kids not wanting to tell Mom and Dad, to STDs, and on and on) is kids having sex a) before they are emotionally, mentally and financially able to deal with it on their own, b) outside of a long-term, committed, monogomous relationship (marriage) and, possibly/probably, c) with multiple partners.

You stop this and you blast a way a whole set of problems all at once.

That's what I am saying.

So, more briefly, yes.

Great. Now we're on the same page.

Quote:
I am also saying that we (as a society and as adults) have simply abdicated on this ("well, they're gonna do it anyway!") instead of stepping up to our responsibility to teach kids the dire, negative consequences if they choose this behavior...and instead have simply made it easier to do it by muting (though not really eliminating) the consequences...shifting them, if you will, in space and time.

Could you explain this a little? What changed and when?

Quote:
The lazy "well, they're gonna do it anyway" attitude is the root of all this.

Well, they are gonna do it anyway.

Quote:
We don't say this about many other things that people (whatever age) "are gonna do anyway".

You have car insurance?

Quote:
It really isn't such a radical idea.

No. It's not. It's a pretty old idea, and it didn't really work when it has been the assumed norm. I say "assumed" because even when there were dire repercussions for unmarried people having sex (well, women. No one in the west has ever really cared when boys have sex unless they're diseased, and even then, not so much), people still had sex in numbers that I suspect are roughly comparable (if not "worse") than now.

The even more interesting thing is the way that such a system (by which I assume the inevitable result would be the scandalizing sex and pregnancy) works is that "illicit" sex becomes incredibly class-bound: poor people have sex all the time; the middling sorts aren't supposed to. Of course, it doesn't work and people have sex and girls get pregnant.

Quote:
Some wish to shrink from the challenge (and call it, erroneously, "being practical"). I don't.

Lots of people who approach the problem from a "Step 1) Get teens to stop having sex. Step 2) ... Step 3) Problem solved!" tend to see their notions simple and obvious.

I would suggest a big scarlet A be used somewhere in there, but I think it's been tried before.

We could, of course, just lower the age of consent back to 12 and that'd solve all the problems.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #178 of 184
Sex is great and there's absolutely nothing morally questionable about it when it's consensual and doesn't result in unwanted children.
post #179 of 184
Thread Starter 
This is a fundie issue actually. Perhaps the archetypal one.

Fundies are literalists - that is there major psychological imbalance - and this anti-sex stupidity of course results from an insane (mis) reading of Genesis and consequent belief that sex was the sin Adam and Eve committed and thus is intrinsically linked to the fall.

All sorts of stupid phrases are redolent of this - 'fallen woman' for example.

Utter madness.

They should have more (some) sex - I think all that orgone energy clogs up in their heads and stops them thinking. If I was a multi-millionaire I'd set up a philanthropic Institute which hired high-class call-girls and sent them round to fundies to shag them back to earth.

It's probably the only way.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #180 of 184
Those who like to point to NAMBLA as an example of free speech supposedly "run amok" would do well to note that NAMBLA has been reduced to little more than a P.O. Box and a web site and the organization has all but disbanded. It was made a joke by the court of public opinion without the government limiting its speech in any way. Holy shit, the framers may have known what they were doing.
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post #181 of 184
The answer to all Chris' problems.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19125611.400

sorry I dont have an account for the full article, but if left to the fundies, this technique will be used right up until the day you get married.
post #182 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
The answer to all Chris' problems.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19125611.400

sorry I dont have an account for the full article, but if left to the fundies, this technique will be used right up until the day you get married.

The frightening thing is that the hypocrisy and sheer evil of the fundies will mean they without doubt WOULD genetically engineer humans - possibly even not to 'sin' in some way or - shudder - become 'converted'. NO doubt whatsoever it will happen.

Of course this is playing God and messing more with His plan than anything they are against. We shouldn't be surprised really - they are the ones that want to protect 'murdering' unborn children but still unquestioningly support Israel who are actively murdering real ones.

It doesn't get sicker than that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #183 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The frightening thing is that the hypocrisy and sheer evil of the fundies will mean they without doubt WOULD genetically engineer humans - possibly even not to 'sin' in some way or - shudder - become 'converted'. NO doubt whatsoever it will happen.

Of course this is playing God and messing more with His plan than anything they are against. We shouldn't be surprised really - they are the ones that want to protect 'murdering' unborn children but still unquestioningly support Israel who are actively murdering real ones.

It doesn't get sicker than that.

I doubt that they would do this - it is "against nature" and all.

I am more consistent, I guess - pro death all round.
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post #184 of 184
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I doubt that they would do this - it is "against nature" and all.

I am more consistent, I guess - pro death all round.

Everything they do is against nature, there is one sole agenda with Fundies, the persuit to 'prove' that they are right. Lies, deceit, corruption, killing...genetic engineering, all these evils all fair game and dismissed as 'necessary medicine' if the sole intended goal is the proof of their superstition.
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