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Bush vetos stem cell bill - Page 7

post #241 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I'm sorry, Jimmac, but I believe it's your dog.

Come again? If it's Chris you're talking about take him to the pound. Trying to debate with him is a waste of time because he just concentrates on what he's going to say. That and how he can counter one small item in your statement distracting from the topic.
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post #242 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Come again? If it's Chris you're talking about take him to the pound.

Nope. Your argument went off the rails right here:

Quote:
The key part of that statement says " New ". It's the part you attempted to use to support your argument. As a matter of fact you could just pay attention to this part : " New humans develop ". They are called new to set them apart from fully developed humans and they are in the process of development. Not complete.
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post #243 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Nope. Your argument went off the rails right here:

Explain yourself.

Chris was trying to imply that Wiki's definition stated that humans are human from day one because of that one sentence and the way it was worded. I contend it wasn't that at all.
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post #244 of 262
Ok here's something :

http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspag...stemcellqa.htm

From that article :

-----------------------------------------------------------

" Do embryonic stem cells come from an aborted human fetus?

No, by the time a human embryo in the uterus has developed into a fetus (at the end of the eighth week after conception) all its embryonic stem cells are already committed to becoming a specific type of cell. There is no connection between abortion and human embryonic stem cells. "

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And :

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" What kinds of human embryonic stem cells can be used in U-M research?

U-M research studies funded by the National Institutes of Health or other federal funding agencies are restricted to existing stem cell lines, created before August 9, 2001, and listed on the NIH Human Embryonic Stem Cell Registry. Privately funded U-M research studies can be conducted with new cell lines not listed in the NIH registry, as long as they meet the conditions outlined in the universitys official policy statement, including:

Embryos used to create new cell lines must come from fertility clinics
Only embryos no longer needed for reproductive purposes can be donated for research
Embryos cannot be purchased and there must be no incentive to donate
Full informed consent from the donor is required
The donors privacy and confidentiality must be protected "

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And from another link :

http://www.aamc.org/advocacy/library...ch/res0002.htm

From that link :

-----------------------------------------------------------

" However, the discoveries have also raised a number of ethical and legal issues. Under language included in the annual Labor-HHS Appropriations bill since 1996, the federal government is prohibited from funding research involving human embryos. In January 1999, the General Counsel of the Department of Health and Human Services determined that the federal government was not prohibited from funding research utilizing human pluripotent stem cells based on the scientific determination that stem cells are not "organisms" and therefore cannot be considered human embryos. However, funding stem cell derivation activities was judged to be prohibited."

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post #245 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Explain yourself.

Chris was trying to imply that Wiki's definition stated that humans are human from day one because of that one sentence and the way it was worded. I contend it wasn't that at all.

Here's what you said:

Quote:
They are called new to set them apart from fully developed humans and they are in the process of development. Not complete.

The bit where you say "They are called new to set them apart from fully developed humans and they are in the process of development. Not complete" is, I think, a misreading. Your reading here is that "new" means "undeveloped" or "incomplete," neither of which is a definition of the "new." In the sense that the wiki uses it, the word means "not having existed before" or "in addition to already-existing" humans.
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post #246 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Here's what you said:



The bit where you say "They are called new to set them apart from fully developed humans and they are in the process of development. Not complete" is, I think, a misreading. Your reading here is that "new" means "undeveloped" or "incomplete," neither of which is a definition of the "new." In the sense that the wiki uses it, the word means "not having existed before" or "in addition to already-existing" humans.

Fair enough.
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post #247 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Fair enough.

Aw, come on! You're supposed to argue with me and then we derail the thread with a debate about the meaning of "new"!
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post #248 of 262
so still unanswered....Is there a problem with using/funding non-embryonic stemcell research?
post #249 of 262
A well balanced synopsis of the subject.

Summary:

Quote:
Will embryonic stem cells cure diseases? Maybe.

Can adult stem cells do everything embryonic stem cells do, but without controversy? Unlikely.

Is it necessary to destroy an embryo to obtain embryonic stem cells? Yes.

If the federal government doesn't expand funding for embryonic stem cells, will U.S. scientists flee to other countries? Probably not.

If the federal government doesn't expand funding, will America fall behind in stem-cell research? Maybe.

Are U.S. scientists prohibited from doing certain kinds of embryonic stem-cell research? No.
post #250 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
so still unanswered....Is there a problem with using/funding non-embryonic stemcell research?

No problem with federal funding of other kinds of stem cell research in the US as well as research with any of the Bush approved stem cell lines. Actually at the moment, the real problem is that the overall budget for all research has gone down for the first time in like 30 years. It is harder to get funding now than I can ever remember.
post #251 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
A well balanced synopsis of the subject.

Summary:

It is feasible to harvest ES cells from a single blastomere and keep the embryo viable. This has been done in mice. The idea is to pluck a cell around the 8-cell stage and toss the other 7 cells back in the freezer. (With mice they showed they could get viable offspring from the remaining morula.) Then you make ES cells from the on plucked cell and you can claim the embryo is still alive. This is just a dance to get around the ban on federal money. I'm not sure if anyone will actually try it.
post #252 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Carson O'Genic
No problem with federal funding of other kinds of stem cell research in the US as well as research with any of the Bush approved stem cell lines. Actually at the moment, the real problem is that the overall budget for all research has gone down for the first time in like 30 years. It is harder to get funding now than I can ever remember.

probably because were spending massive amount funding the killing of 'real' humans in other parts of the world.

Killing this is bad.


This killing is met with raptuous applause

[picture removed by Groverat_legal_SS_police]

I think there are some people in pretty small boxes around here.
post #253 of 262
Perhaps you could now point out who on earth is applauding that.
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post #254 of 262
I do have to wonder if people who are against killing embryos in order to cure disease are also against killings civilians in order to bring democracy.
post #255 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I do have to wonder if people who are against killing embryos in order to cure disease are also against killings civilians in order to bring democracy.


It's called the double standard.
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post #256 of 262
Its OK, we've still got out EU funding.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5209106.stm

let the killing begin.
post #257 of 262
The (Embryo) Killing Fields

By Marc of the UK
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post #258 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
It's called the double standard.

No, that's called creating a straw man so you can confuse the issue at hand.
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post #259 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
No, that's called creating a straw man so you can confuse the issue at hand.

No I'm afraid we're talking hypocritical. Everyone I've talked to about this ( no matter what their position ) has brought this up. Life is life.
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post #260 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
No, that's called creating a straw man so you can confuse the issue at hand.

It's testing principles. If this is really based on a fundamental principle of not taking life even for potential good, as Bush and others claim, let's see if they really believe in that principle.

Where are you on this Frank? Do you believe in causing the loss of innocent life in order to create democracy, or in order to cure disease? Both, neither, one or the other?
post #261 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Its OK, we've still got out EU funding.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5209106.stm

let the killing begin.

I hope the EU limits any positive result on the field to countries that funded and/or otherwise supported such research. The USA is, of course, excluded from that list. When there's a cure for the terrible diseases, let it remember that it didn't want it.
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post #262 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It's testing principles. If this is really based on a fundamental principle of not taking life even for potential good, as Bush and others claim, let's see if they really believe in that principle.

Where are you on this Frank? Do you believe in causing the loss of innocent life in order to create democracy, or in order to cure disease? Both, neither, one or the other?

That's unfair BRussell. Your question could cause heads to explode.
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