or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Need for Speed ... Tiger too slow
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Need for Speed ... Tiger too slow

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
Hardware Overview:

Machine NametPower Mac G4
Machine ModeltPowerMac3,5
CPU TypetPowerPC G4 (2.1)
Number Of CPUst2
CPU Speedt1 GHz
L2 Cache (per CPU)t256 KB
L3 Cache (per CPU)t2 MB
Memoryt1 GB
Bus Speedt133 MHz
Boot ROM Versiont4.3.3f2
Serial NumbertXB21401PM8H
Sales Order NumbertM8667LL/A



It seems to me that with each operating system upgrade my computer gets slower and slower.
Yes, I run multiple applications who doesnt? I usually run InDesign and Photoshop, InDesign and Word, Photoshop and Freehand and perhaps Entourage all day.

I have seen a DRAMATIC increase in the appearance of the beachball since moving to Tiger and for the simplest of moves. Going from one open app to another. Trying to quit an app sometimes takes minutes on end. A moment ago I merely highlighted an input field on Safari and the beachball appeared for one full minute!

The ram configuration I currently have has in the past been more than adequate to run the software and the multi tasking I use on a typical workday the ONLY difference I can see as the cause for these incessant delays is the operating system.

I want a more streamlined working environment. Other than my iPod interface, I dont use my computer for entertainment. I dont need all the catchy icons, animated dock, and fanciful interactions with dashboards, etc, etc I just want a fast operating system to run my applications efficiently and to stay out of the way.

Any suggestions? Linux?

Would my software be compatible with such an environment?

Need for Speed.

i AM spardacus
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #2 of 48
When was the last time you did a complete clean reinstall?
post #3 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
When was the last time you did a complete clean reinstall?


Hmmm .... been a while.

But do I want to reinstall Tiger ... or is Linux (or other) a more streamlined option?

Thanks Chucker
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #4 of 48
Well, those apps you mentioned aren't going to run on Linux, so... yeah, it'd be *lightning* quick, since it wouldn't be doing anything.

How often do you reboot? Logout? Quit the apps?

Have you ever cleaned your caches?

See, I've had exactly the opposite experience from you - every major upgrade has made my machine quite a bit faster.

10.4.7 introduced a new caching scheme for Dashboard that seems to be beachballing more in general, which is annoying, but thankfully it can be shut off completely.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
post #5 of 48
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
See, I've had exactly the opposite experience from you - every major upgrade has made my machine quite a bit faster.

Same here.
post #6 of 48
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spardacus
But do I want to reinstall Tiger[/QUOTE

Do an "Archive and Install" (that's an option in the Installer). This will put aside your current stuff and install a clean system. You can then manually move stuff that you need back into place.

Or, assuming you have a decent backup scheme, which you should , do an "Erase and Install", then copy stuff that you need back into place from your backups.

I'm almost positive you'll see a huge speed boost.

Quote:
... or is Linux (or other) a more streamlined option?

Bluntly, no, Linux is not an option for the kind of work you do.
post #7 of 48
Sounds like a cache problem to me as mentioned above. Beachballing and switching apps was painful when my caches were messed up. So much so I noticed the problem straight away and sorted it by first swearing never to install System optimizer X again, fixing the Library permissions it screwed up and cleaning the caches using Cocktail.

Mostly my system updates have improved in speed greatly and Tiger has been the fastest OS so far.
post #8 of 48
Backup your files and any apps you don't have an installer for and do a clean install. That should clean out any stickiness._
post #9 of 48
I ditto the sentiments here, each OS upgrade had run faster on any machine I've upgraded. Looks like time for a clean install.
post #10 of 48
Thread Starter 
Well ... I guess it's time for a clean install.

\

Thank you all for your replies.
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #11 of 48
Also, check how much vm you're using. Beacballing when moving from app to app can also mean that the memory is paging out and in.

1GB for PS, InDesign and Freehand isn't exaclty too much.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #12 of 48
Tiger, overall, sucks.

I paid the 199 for the family pack, and I really don't think I got much value.

But I am not mad at Apple. I suspect they sand bagged a bit because they didn't want Microsoft to copy their next generation OS ideas.

So Tiger was a minor upgrade, with most of the changes under the hood, and just enough to get revenue for the upgrade.

So Microsoft, as predicted copied OS X (and Sun's Glass.)

Now that Microsoft is in a place where they can't reasonably add features, Apple can safely leap-frog Microsoft again with Leopard.
post #13 of 48
Thread Starter 
I do have another important question about archiving.

In the past I would burn multiple CD's, and then as technology evolved DVD's for archiving. Burning DVD's for archiving consumes huuuuge amounts of time.

How does everyone feel about long term (permanent) archiving to an external drive? I have had one drive go bad on me in the past. Are they now reliable enough across the board to move data to for long periods of time? Should I only consider moving data to an external until such time as I am able to burn DVD's ... as I have before?

Also, what brands of drives are most reliable?

Thank you all!

i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #14 of 48
Quote:
Originally posted by spardacus
How does everyone feel about long term (permanent) archiving to an external drive?

No, no, no. They are ok for temporary backups but they are not reliable. What I do is use an external drive with a clone of my system and make regular, almost daily backups of stuff I need. Then I burn maybe a DVD or two a week.

Even if a DVD gets scratched, you can often still get a lot of data back. I used to use CDs and I decided to re-burn them to DVD. I discovered that two discs out of about 150 were slightly damaged. I lost about 300-400MB of stuff, which is less than 1 CD.

If I'd had all that stuff on a HD and it blew, I'd lose it all in a fraction of a second. That's not a risk I'd ever be comfortable with.
post #15 of 48
Just to add my $.02...

A clean install is hardly ever necessary. You guys are talking like a bunch of winblows users although it is certainly less painful to clean install os x anyway.

anywho, just get Onyx (<<--great app) or similar and run all the maintenance and cache clearing junk. Just had a similar problem that started rather abruptly with my bro's 17" Powerbook and about 1/2 hr. later everything was back to normal.
post #16 of 48
No matter which medium you use, it seems to me that the more irreplaceable the data is, the more you

- make more than one backup
- store at least one of the backups off-site


None of my stuff is really irreplaceable, so I am satisfied with one separate hard drive backup daily and one sent to dot-mac via Apple Backup.

If I had irreplaceable stuff, I would make DVDs in addition to the above - make 2 of each, check them for ability to restore, and then take at least one offsite.

It's true hard drives crash, but DriveSavers can usually get your data if you have $1200 or so.
--Johnny
Reply
--Johnny
Reply
post #17 of 48
Thread Starter 
I have my computer's primary on board hard drive ~ 75 gig drive
I also have a secondary internal 250 gig hard drive installed.

My system is running on the primary and I use the secondary for working files storage. I should be able to simply move everything off my primary onto my secondary for temporary storage, and clean install Tiger onto my primary without affecting the secondary - right?

I went out and bought an external drive not thinking about this option. I have plenty of room on my secondary internal drive to archive the primary, and a clean install should allow me to choose which drive, leaving the other alone ... isn't that correct?

Thanks.
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #18 of 48
Quote:
Originally posted by spardacus
I have my computer's primary on board hard drive ~ 75 gig drive
I also have a secondary internal 250 gig hard drive installed.

My system is running on the primary and I use the secondary for working files storage. I should be able to simply move everything off my primary onto my secondary for temporary storage, and clean install Tiger onto my primary without affecting the secondary - right?

I went out and bought an external drive not thinking about this option. I have plenty of room on my secondary internal drive to archive the primary, and a clean install should allow me to choose which drive, leaving the other alone ... isn't that correct?

Thanks.

Correct
post #19 of 48
Thread Starter 
Thank you.
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #20 of 48
Well, how things are going? Have you tried to restore the system? Do you see any difference?
post #21 of 48
Thread Starter 
Actually, I am currently browsing through all my folders trying to figure out what I need to copy over before wiping everything out.

Thus makes me very nervous.

i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #22 of 48
I've done this a hundred times.

You will need to backup your whole user folder. It contains all your preferences and settings and your documents. Back up your main /library folder also. Back up any applications you don't have installers for. Backup any folders you have created out of your home folder that have documents.

But before you go crazy...

If you have a tower just install that new drive and install OSX on that. Plug in the drives later to transfer the data. It will be way faster. The computer will run faster with a new drive anyway.

Once your done create a user with same name and password as the old one, then log in as that user and replace the folders inside your home folder.

Replace the apps that don't have installers for (it's better to reinstall the apps and easier too, if you can)

you can then replace the prefs files from those apps from your old drive into the /library/preferences/ folder.

Reboot and you are usually most of the way there.

Post here if you have any questions.

Oh yeah, you can also use the migration utility in 10.4 to do it even easier during the instal or even after you are done.
post #23 of 48
Thread Starter 
Well .... one clean install, several Microsoft User Data corruptions, lost Palm Pilot data, and many hours later amd I believe Tiger is still too slow.

Perhaps it's a Photoshop thing. I notice the beach ball A LOT when going back and forth with Photoshop open.

Still ... my computer HAS NEVER acted this way before - and that's going back to my Performa! Sure previous computers were slower and less memory was available - BUT THE POINT IS that I have never seen such a dramatic DECREASE in performance with a system "UPGRADE".

Oh and yeah, I love these guys who always take the opportunity to say "Well you know a gig of memory really isn't that much for ....." are you kidding me? Whatev!

Tiger sucks! I have no use for dynamic icons, dashboards, and whatever widgets ... I need speed and reliability.
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by spardacus

Oh and yeah, I love these guys who always take the opportunity to say "Well you know a gig of memory really isn't that much for ....." are you kidding me? Whatev!

Why? 1GB isn't much - not for Photoshop or any other Adobe app. Beachballing when going to and from an app is one of the signs of paging.

If you don't even want to bother checking /var/vm/ then it's your own fault.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #25 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by spardacus

Oh and yeah, I love these guys who always take the opportunity to say "Well you know a gig of memory really isn't that much for ....." are you kidding me? Whatev!

1 GB is a fairly normal configuration these days, hardly even mid-end.
post #26 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL

Why? 1GB isn't much - not for Photoshop or any other Adobe app. Beachballing when going to and from an app is one of the signs of paging.

If you don't even want to bother checking /var/vm/ then it's your own fault.


This is MY FAULT ... that's classic!

How can all be well before a system upgrade - then all go "South" after a system upgrade and it is MY FAULT?!
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #27 of 48
QUOTE=meelash]Just to add my $.02...

A clean install is hardly ever necessary. You guys are talking like a bunch of winblows users although it is certainly less painful to clean install os x anyway.
[/QUOTE

Hey again, same idea, same mindset, i guess.

This advice to reinstall just gives me the creeps. It is almost always
not necessary, except one encounter some really bad system errors,
which is very rare and unlikely, imh experience.

Performance and so called snappiness is such a personal
thing. Maybe the original poster saw a brand new Mac in action and
from now on he considers his (aging) Mac as slow.

It has a lot to do with (wrong) expectations. I think, that's the key here.
Let's face it a G4 (even a 2x1gHz) is not exactly a speed demon, it is quite
a reliable working horse, which is stable and easy to maintain.
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
Reply
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
Reply
post #28 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by spardacus

This is MY FAULT ... that's classic!

How can all be well before a system upgrade - then all go "South" after a system upgrade and it is MY FAULT?!

I'm not saying that it is a RAM problem, but why don't you want to check? That's what I meant about it being your own fault.

All it takes is opening Terminal and typing: ls /var/vm/ when your machine gets slow, and if there are more than two swapfiles, you need more RAM.

Try to solve the problem instead of complaining about people trying to help you solve it.

Have you updated your apps after the upgrade to Tiger? Perhaps newer versions require more RAM. Are they the latest versions? Perhaps older versions leak when running under Tiger. Have you checked how much RAM you have allocated to Photoshop? Perhaps you had a lower setting in 10.3. Are you working on larger projects than before?
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #29 of 48
Did you copy over the caches too when you redid the drive? (Because that would be bad, if caches were the problem in the first place.)

It's not your fault that it is slow - it's your fault that you jumped immediately to "reinstall the world" instead of trying to figure out what actually went wrong, despite advice in here. Chances are extremely good that a simple fix was all it needed.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
Reply
post #30 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL

All it takes is opening Terminal and typing: ls /var/vm/ when your machine gets slow, and if there are more than two swapfiles, you need more RAM.



What kind of "rule of thumb" is that supposed to be? The amount of swapfiles doesn't even say anything about the size of them, nor is it anywhere close to the real VM size.

The only remotely useful gauge of "do I need more RAM" is the rate at which pageouts occur.
post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by spardacus

This is MY FAULT ... that's classic!

How can all be well before a system upgrade - then all go "South" after a system upgrade and it is MY FAULT?!

Let's do a little clean-up. Boot into single-user mode (hold cmd-S), then type:

fsck -fy
mount -rw /
rm -rf /System/Library/Caches/*
rm -rf /Library/Caches/*
rm -rf /Users/<you>/Library/Caches/*
reboot

(Where "<you>" is the short name of your user account.)

Your system will boot rather slowly at first as caches get recreated. After this, you system should feel quite a bit faster.
post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

What kind of "rule of thumb" is that supposed to be? The amount of swapfiles doesn't even say anything about the size of them, nor is it anywhere close to the real VM size.

Did I say that? No!

But does the system create swapfiles when there is enough memory? (with the exception of the first one).

What does the system usually do when the disk is thrashing?
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #33 of 48
Thread Starter 
You're all obviously a lot smarter than I.

All I know is that a couple of system versions ago with the same hardware - same ram, my apps ran smooth ... no beachballing, no hanging between apps, no web browser stalls. Now, new system and all else the same and problems ensue ...

Seems pretty straight forward to me. But, I guess that's too simplistic a view.

If the new system requires more and more ram to do what previous versions did with less ram, or for that matter any other aspect of the "thought process" within the computer .. then that makes my point.

The new system is less efficient.

Having to upgrade ram to run newer, "bulkier", "greedier" systems undermines the "upgrade".

I'll check the ram ... but you know if my car runs fine on gasoline, and then I put water in the tank and the car ceases to function - it's the water - not the engine that is the culprit.
i AM spardacus
Reply
i AM spardacus
Reply
post #34 of 48
And you have checked your Photoshop settings? Are they the same as before?

Photoshop can eat a lot of RAM.

In my experience Tiger doesn't need more RAM than Jaguar but it's been a while since I only had 1GB.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL

Did I say that? No!

But does the system create swapfiles when there is enough memory?

You've gotta have an awful lot of RAM to avoid swapping altogether. In which case you might as well turn off dynamic_pager and gain some performance.
post #36 of 48
The easiest way to settle the "is it the VM swapping" issue is to ... check the VM swapping.

vm_stat

in Terminal.

Look for the pageouts. Ignore the pageins.

Or fire up Activity Monitor and click the "System Memory" tab. Look at "Page Ins/Outs". Ignore the "Ins".
--Johnny
Reply
--Johnny
Reply
post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

You've gotta have an awful lot of RAM to avoid swapping altogether.

There is always one 64MB swapfile and often two.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
Reply
post #38 of 48
I don't know about that swap file "rule of thumb" - I have several swap files and my computer is plenty fast at all times.

How full is your primary hard drive? My daughter's computer really slowed down when she got near filling up her drive.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978

I don't know about that swap file "rule of thumb" - I have several swap files and my computer is plenty fast at all times.

How full is your primary hard drive? My daughter's computer really slowed down when she got near filling up her drive.

Good point. I would run disk utility-repair disk from the startup disk and check to make sure your hard drive is good. My brother PB started to run really slow all of a sudden and a few days later the hard drive crashed. Just a thought....
post #40 of 48
Try Onyx http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/20070, a pretty damn good - and free - tool for cleaning just about every cache on your computer. It also performs some maintenance and optimisation routines.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac OS X
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Need for Speed ... Tiger too slow