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Are you walking in faith?

post #1 of 229
Thread Starter 
If this thread is not for you hit the back button on your browser or click the PoliticalOutsider hyperlink and return to Bush did this, Israel did that related threads.


If you are still here I submit the following question square at you.

Are you walking in faith in your life?

The reason I ask is simple. It can change your life for the better. While we are easily distracted in our world of fallen nature it is far too easy to take our eye off of God.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

For those of you who have not read over Hebrews chapter 11 I submit to you the following link:

Ask yourself,, Is faith part of your life?

Hebrews Chapter 11

I believe we are lifted up, experience great love and joy when we simply have faith.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #2 of 229
No offense, Fellows, but why would anyone want to please god?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #3 of 229
I walked in some faith earlier, and I couldn't get it all off on the doormat, either. I had to wash my shoes in the washing machine, The trick is to throw in a towel so they won't keep banging around so much.
post #4 of 229
Hey, you should consider yourself lucky, some bloke tripped me into a whole damned puddle of the stuff once.
post #5 of 229
Shetline's right.
post #6 of 229
Hey, I don't agree much with Fellows when it comes to things like faith, but I think he's been doing a damn good job of trying to keep an open mind and be more accepting of people who disagree with his own views on things, so I'd like to ask the rest of you to give him and his thread a little more respect here.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #7 of 229
Fellows, you can't just wake up one day and say "oh, faith. I should have it." For some people, like myself, it has never clicked. It has never made any sense. Faith in god has been as absurd as believing in the Easter Bunny. It's not like I was raised to be an atheist. I was given a Jewish upbringing and, like I said, from the very start I just never bought it.

And frankly, in my opinion, faith is too easy an out anyway. It would be easier to throw your hands up in the air and say that some higher power is in control. And even if I could delude myself into believing that I wouldn't want to. When I accomplish something I'd rather take the credit and pass on my thanks to the actual people who helped me...not something I conjured up in my head to have the confidence to leave my house and not piss myself.

Clearly, Fellows, you have whatever it is that I lack that allows you to totally submit yourself to faith. You are quite happy about it...just as happy as I am about not having it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #8 of 229
No offense/pun intended, but JESUS CHRIST, PEOPLE, THE MAN ASKED A QUESTION DIRECTED AT A SPECIFIC AUDIENCE AND PROVIDED APPROPRIATE WARNINGS/CAVEATS AND NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HERE HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #9 of 229
Dude, I did answer his question. I'm not walking in faith and I don't think I'm missing a thing. I at least responded seriously and wasn't a dick about it. Christ, midwinter, relax.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #10 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Dude, I did answer his question. I'm not walking in faith and I don't think I'm missing a thing. I at least responded seriously and wasn't a dick about it. Christ, midwinter, relax.

Did I quote you in my post? And yes, you did respond seriously and you weren't a dick about it.

Christ, BR, relax.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #11 of 229
Last time I checked I'm a people. And then there was this:
Quote:
NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HERE HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

I'm a person, too. *tear*

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #12 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship


Are you walking in faith in your life?

The reason I ask is simple. It can change your life for the better. While we are easily distracted in our world of fallen nature it is far too easy to take our eye off of God.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

For those of you who have not read over Hebrews chapter 11 I submit to you the following link:

Ask yourself,, Is faith part of your life?

Hebrews Chapter 11

I believe we are lifted up, experience great love and joy when we simply have faith.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Fellowship

It took a while, but I realised why you were in prison. I see you got out of prison having faith. But I see it as this.

Imagine this prison to be a box that contains us, every one of us has a box that contains our life. Some of our boxes overlap, and where they do, we agree on certain common aspects of life, and where the boxes don't overlap, we have experiences of things that we dont agree on.

All is well, until we discover that we have grown to entirely fill our box, and then it becomes a prison, so we seek a way to escape from it. We punch a hole through our box, and see that it was actually inside a much larger box which has lots of room. Hurriedly we quickly destroy the small box and move our life into the big box.

In the big box, we still see lots of smaller boxes, which we know contain people, and sometimes we go rattle thir box to see if they want to move into the big box with us.

But the problem is, that in their small boxes, these people are happy, and to them the big box is really a scary place. Infact, the only people we can help come out of the small box, are the people who have virtually broken out themselves, and we can just give them a final pull, and stand them on their feet.

In our big box, were happy and congratulate ourselves for breaking out of little box, there is space for everything, and we have room to grow.

But this is what I say to you Fellows. Were all still in boxes of various sizes, the choice is do we forever rattle the cages of the smaller boxes, in a vain hope that evangelizing the size of our box will make those content in small boxes to join our party, or do we go punch a hole in the side of our big box to see if there is a much bigger party we knew nothing about.?

And a general observation not directed specifically at you, is that there is a bit of faith in every size of box, and in the smaller boxes, perhaps faith makes up the majority of its volume - which is why it seems so important. The trouble I see with Christians, is that they have broken out the smallest box and found some space, infact they're so extatic about this, they get a kick out of banging on the sides of every box they come across, even the much larger boxes than their own to try to get bigger box people to come play in their smaller box.

For some people, those breaking out of a smaller box, they are infact doing them a favour, but for others they are an eternal pain in the butt.

It doesn't necessarily mean that moving from a small box to a larger box, means that you have to give up on faith or God, larger boxes aren't suddenly athiest or faithless, infact by default you will take the contents of the smaller box with you when you move into a large box, and given the space, those ideas you had in the small box, will grow into something much larger all on their own. They'll still have the same roots in your truth, but the tree should blossom and produce fruit. Still the same tree, much better fruit.

Infact, we shouldn't judge people on their beliefs, but by the size of their box. There can be 2 very big boxes, but if their space doesnt overlap, then those two people will always be at odds with eachother.

Maybe the trick to the problem is accepting we are in various sized boxes, and look for a way to escape the containment into a space that incorperates everyone.
post #13 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
And frankly, in my opinion, faith is too easy an out anyway. It would be easier to throw your hands up in the air and say that some higher power is in control. And even if I could delude myself into believing that I wouldn't want to. When I accomplish something I'd rather take the credit and pass on my thanks to the actual people who helped me...not something I conjured up in my head to have the confidence to leave my house and not piss myself.

I feel where you're coming from, but from the (mostly) opposite perspective. I was raised in an extremely religious ("fundie" as is so popular a label in this forum), but got fed up over the constant barrage of "you have to have faith" that was crammed down my throat on a daily basis.

So many of the things I was told I should just leave to faith I eventually felt could be explained in a much more rational way, without any handwaving or convenient mumbo jumbo. As a result, I actively rejected anything I couldn't prove, or for which I didn't think there existed enough evidence.

Unfortunately, this methodology came around to bite me. I came to realize that the natural world also isn't quite so clear cut as I would have liked to believe. The theories concerning origins, for example, were completely unsatisfactory to me, and therefore I couldn't simply chalk up my existence to a series of random physical accidents.

Faith, then, plays into a binary choice. Either you A) have faith that science will eventually answer all the questions based upon our current theories, or B) you have faith that the problem transcends our current understanding. (I'm deliberately ignoring the third choice of simply not caring.)

I fall into category B, but only grudgingly. I say grudgingly, because the former is so potentially neat and simple. Man being the sole pilot of his destiny and all that. We all make statements of faith, but they're based (whether we're aware of them or not) on our presuppositions.
The secret of life: Proteins fold up and bind things.
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The secret of life: Proteins fold up and bind things.
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post #14 of 229
I believe in high moral standards, many of which match those Jesus had, therefore, I consider myself a follower of Jesus.

I have no respect for many of the more absurd/fundamentalist branches of Christianity, however, so I'm always troubled by being labelled a "Christian", because that term has been abused.
post #15 of 229
I used to be a person of faith but rightly or wrongly moved beyond it. I was brought up a Christian (yes of the fundie variety ) but although I always have believed in God I couldn't help noticing that prayer didn't work and it was impossible to contact Him.

Also the injustice of the world and the apparent existence of 'evil' etc were a philosophical problem that I did not find satisfactorily addressed in Christianity.

It seems to me that this is the point where faith or delusion set in. That is a sincere person, such as Fellows, say, will recognize these factors and seek God more and thus grow in faith - ie trust more in spite of the apparent problems. Someone else may 'over-compensate' and seek to rationalize all this in a literal, authoritarian sense: find God by 'brute-force' as it were by constantly re-affrming that it has been achieved to themselves and others. Become a fundie in fact which is the opposite of faith imo because it does not accept the way things are - it constantly seeks to change them.

The first path is that of the contemplative and has produced all the great achievements of Christianity.

Personally I rejected both these solutions and do not hold faith to be the utmost spiritual position. Knowledge is far higher and in my view is the original true aim of all religions. In fact I would go as far as to say that faith as a concept, although not invented by the Church, has certainly been given an undue prominence out of all proportion. Imo this has been done as a means of control of the populace during the Dark Ages.

If knowledge had taken precedence over faith in that period then perhaps Christianity would have been as advanced a civilization as Islam was at the time.

Anyway, I think the Bible is quite clear on the distinction between faith and knowledge - particularly Paul who I have quite a lot of time for these days. He said "Work Out your salvation with fear and trembling" and of course his beautiful analogy of the 'glass darkly'.

Quote:
If you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
For the Lord gives wisdom,
and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Proverbs 2:3-6

The verse is talking purely of knowledge not faith. Knowledge is the goal.

Faith is only useful while we wait and progress towards that goal, on it's own it is less than we could and should have.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #16 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
That is a sincere person, such as Fellows, say, will recognize these factors and seek God more and thus grow in faith

Herein lies the problem with sincerity.

Were all basically sincere in nature. Even the people we dont like. Bush, might sincerely believe his actions are doing good under the circumstances, Terrorists sincerely believe they are doing good under their set of circumstances. I might be sincere that telling people about the sun-god, will have some good, as Cuilla is sincere in his beliefs that stopping teenagers having sex will produce some good. As Fellows sincerely believed that telling me about ID would do some good.

And we'd all be right to a certain extent. So what is the criteria for measuring how well our sincerity is working?
post #17 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
And we'd all be right to a certain extent. So what is the criteria for measuring how well our sincerity is working?

Conscience. It's between you and whatever you consider as 'God'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #18 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius




The verse is talking purely of knowledge not faith. Knowledge is the goal.

Faith is only useful while we wait and progress towards that goal, on it's own it is less than we could and should have.


I have to disagree with that 100%

Faith is a pathway to knowledge so actually we should make a habit of faith as to expand knowledge.

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #19 of 229
Faith is a pathway to experience, and experience can be a pathway to knowledge.

Without a leap of faith, you will never take risks, and without doing that, you will never gain true experience. Without unique experiences, you will never gain knowledge.
post #20 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Were all basically sincere in nature. Even the people we dont like. Bush, might sincerely believe his actions are doing good under the circumstances, Terrorists sincerely believe they are doing good under their set of circumstances. I might be sincere that telling people about the sun-god, will have some good, as Cuilla is sincere in his beliefs that stopping teenagers having sex will produce some good. As Fellows sincerely believed that telling me about ID would do some good.

Actually there is another answer but I wasn't being sincere in not giving it so I will

There really is no good and bad. It is an illusion. So in effect it is a false dilemma. Me, you, Bush, Hizbollah, Fellows, God - we are all the same thing. There is no division.

The problem is that we see a division. It is not a question of sincerity, it is more a question of realizing this. This is what the founders of religions are teaching IMO.

You can see it quite explicitly stated in Buddhism, Zen, Taoism and Islam - Christianity has undergone a revisionist process but it is still discernible in Christ's words if you look deeply and with the right eyes.

Only one thing exists (you cannot even add 'in the universe' to that as that would imply two things), it doesn't matter what you call it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #21 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK


But the problem is, that in their small boxes, these people are happy, and to them the big box is really a scary place.

Actually I do not believe in boxes. I believe some things are universal in truth and universal is hard to put in a box.

Now I agree that some people are in a small box.

The question is how do we help people out of their boxes?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #22 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I have to disagree with that 100%

Faith is a pathway to knowledge so actually we should make a habit of faith as to expand knowledge.

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle

Fellowship

That's what I said. It's a pathway to knowledge - that implies it is NOT knowledge and cannot be.

Faith by definition must deal with things we do not know. That's what it is. You have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow but you don't know for sure.

God does not have faith - He knows.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
The question is how do we help people out of their boxes?



Let's ask these fine fellows.
post #24 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Faith is a pathway to experience, and experience can be a pathway to knowledge.

Without a leap of faith, you will never take risks, and without doing that, you will never gain true experience. Without unique experiences, you will never gain knowledge.

Very true.

Religious belief (faith) can be the greatest liberator to one person and a prison of chains to another.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #25 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Fellows, you can't just wake up one day and say "oh, faith. I should have it." For some people, like myself, it has never clicked. It has never made any sense. Faith in god has been as absurd as believing in the Easter Bunny. It's not like I was raised to be an atheist. I was given a Jewish upbringing and, like I said, from the very start I just never bought it.

And frankly, in my opinion, faith is too easy an out anyway. It would be easier to throw your hands up in the air and say that some higher power is in control. And even if I could delude myself into believing that I wouldn't want to. When I accomplish something I'd rather take the credit and pass on my thanks to the actual people who helped me...not something I conjured up in my head to have the confidence to leave my house and not piss myself.

Clearly, Fellows, you have whatever it is that I lack that allows you to totally submit yourself to faith. You are quite happy about it...just as happy as I am about not having it.


I completely respect your position. I appreciate your direct and honest reply.

There were long periods of time in my life where I had no faith about anything. I do believe I know what you are saying above. Had no faith and did not know the difference. It is possible that this could pivot and change for you at some point I for one will not pretend to know when or if.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #26 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No offense, Fellows, but why would anyone want to please god?

I can't speak for others but for me it is a personal thing regarding the love of God directed towards me that I recognize and I will always give God the glory for his blessings poured out to me and my family.

I don't want to take credit for something that is a gift.

I consider my life a gift and I consider God the giver of it.

The last thing I want is to mock the one who gave me everything.

I also believe that God has this way of getting us to want to not just have blessings but to share and distribute this blessing / glory with others.

To God be the glory not me.

And may I do a small part to share it and not keep it a secret.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #27 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Actually I do not believe in boxes. I believe some things are universal in truth and universal is hard to put in a box.

Now I agree that some people are in a small box.

The question is how do we help people out of their boxes?

Fellows

I dont think you can really help people out of their box. People need to find the constrains of their box on thier own and make a conscious decision to break out of it. You can only give them a final pull when they have all but broken out of it themselves.

Infact, trying to help people out of their box, seems to have the opposite effect. Evidence - You tried to help me out of a box by telling me about ID. Because i realise now that I was at the constraints of my box, because you caused me tension, i punched through my box in entirely opposite direction to that which you hoped for. Consequently, my new box was alot bigger, but I expanded it so there was no more overlap between our boxes than there was previously, and thus now being able to draw upon the resources of a bigger box, its easier for me to really piss you off if I so choose to do so. Fortunately I expanded into a different box, which taught me about Philosophically reflectiveness, so thats less likely to happen between us now.

As it is with every debate, and every issue we discuss. If we reach the confines of the box, we punch through in the opposite direction to stress, result, we all have bigger boxes, but there is no more overlap.

So when we realise this, we could I suppose shut up, but then the world would be a very quiet place indeed.
post #28 of 229
It's official: MarcUk is out of his box.....

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #29 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It's official: MarcUk is out of his box.....


Im trying hard to get in yours
post #30 of 229
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I dont think you can really help people out of their box. People need to find the constrains of their box on thier own and make a conscious decision to break out of it. You can only give them a final pull when they have all but broken out of it themselves.

Infact, trying to help people out of their box, seems to have the opposite effect. Evidence - You tried to help me out of a box by telling me about ID. Because i realise now that I was at the constraints of my box, because you caused me tension, i punched through my box in entirely opposite direction to that which you hoped for. Consequently, my new box was alot bigger, but I expanded it so there was no more overlap between our boxes than there was previously, and thus now being able to draw upon the resources of a bigger box, its easier for me to really piss you off if I so choose to do so. Fortunately I expanded into a different box, which taught me about Philosophically reflectiveness, so thats less likely to happen between us now.

As it is with every debate, and every issue we discuss. If we reach the confines of the box, we punch through in the opposite direction to stress, result, we all have bigger boxes, but there is no more overlap.

So when we realise this, we could I suppose shut up, but then the world would be a very quiet place indeed.

I would never want you to "shut up"

We each live out our lives in our own timing and experience and that is alright.


Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #31 of 229
here's hoping to finding a way to punch out of all these boxes, into a box that overlaps everyones existance and ideas. Perhaps the 'real' God is just a big infinite box.
post #32 of 229
Another Point. Call it "God of the Boxes"

In your box, you have the entire contents of your life experiences, therefore the God you have found explains everything in your box.

I have my box, which contains the entire consequences of my lifes experiences, therefore my God explains everything in my box.

Likewise Segovius has his Box and his God.

Now to some extent, our three boxes overlap, in that we all have an experience of some feeling we call God. So we have some common ground.

Now In your box, there will be experiences that I have not experienced, so my God will not explain those. Likewise in my box, there are things that your God does not explain. Sego has experiences that neither of our Gods explain.

There will come a time, if we are progressing that we will get a glimpse of something outside of our box that our God doesn't explain. Then we have to make a choice of exploring the conflict or retreating into the safety of what we know is in our box.

So it must be that there is a God of the infinite box, but then none of us have yet discovered him. Yet finding this God will explain the contents of our three boxes to be consistant with the infinite box. And we'll find our pathways through the boxes of life have all been different, but with a common goal.

So you need faith to have the courage to punch through your box, because as you do not yet know the contents of the bigger box, you do not know if it will cause you harm or good.

After you have been in the bigger box for a while, you see that it does not cause you harm, so you can let go of the faith, and convert this into knowledge of the bigger box.

Yet again, though, at some point you will need to again find the faith, when the time comes that you have grown beyond the size of the box and need to break out.
post #33 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Another Point. Call it "God of the Boxes"

In your box, you have the entire contents of your life experiences, therefore the God you have found explains everything in your box.

I have my box, which contains the entire consequences of my lifes experiences, therefore my God explains everything in my box.

Likewise Segovius has his Box and his God.

Now to some extent, our three boxes overlap, in that we all have an experience of some feeling we call God. So we have some common ground.

Now In your box, there will be experiences that I have not experienced, so my God will not explain those. Likewise in my box, there are things that your God does not explain. Sego has experiences that neither of our Gods explain.

There will come a time, if we are progressing that we will get a glimpse of something outside of our box that our God doesn't explain. Then we have to make a choice of exploring the conflict or retreating into the safety of what we know is in our box.

So it must be that there is a God of the infinite box, but then none of us have yet discovered him. Yet finding this God will explain the contents of our three boxes to be consistant with the infinite box. And we'll find our pathways through the boxes of life have all been different, but with a common goal.

So you need faith to have the courage to punch through your box, because as you do not yet know the contents of the bigger box, you do not know if it will cause you harm or good.

After you have been in the bigger box for a while, you see that it does not cause you harm, so you can let go of the faith, and convert this into knowledge of the bigger box.

Yet again, though, at some point you will need to again find the faith, when the time comes that you have grown beyond the size of the box and need to break out.

Maybe God is the totality of all the boxes that exist or could possibly exist.

We are all correct. Nobody is wrong. There is no such thing as wrong.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #34 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Maybe God is the totality of all the boxes that exist or could possibly exist.

We are all correct. Nobody is wrong. There is no such thing as wrong.

Right,

When Fellows met Heather, it must have been that the entire contents of their boxes overlapped to a great degree so that they felt comfortable with eachother, as they got to know eachother better, their respective boxes morphed into one.

Likewise your box overlapped mine enough so that we get on well enough most of the time, but there are still corners of each box that sometimes we have to squabble over. If they become similar enough, then there should in theory be a merging of boxes to become one and complete peace between us. Bitch

So it must be, then that 'Heaven' is not a magical place in the sky, but the merging off all boxes, and this one super box, we can call God - But im going to call it Mystery
post #35 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Right,

When Fellows met Heather, it must have been that the entire contents of their boxes overlapped to a great degree so that they felt comfortable with eachother, as they got to know eachother better, their respective boxes morphed into one.

Likewise your box overlapped mine enough so that we get on well enough most of the time, but there are still corners of each box that sometimes we have to squabble over. If they become similar enough, then there should in theory be a merging of boxes to become one and complete peace between us. Bitch

So it must be, then that 'Heaven' is not a magical place in the sky, but the merging off all boxes, and this one super box, we can call God - But im going to call it Mystery

Yes but what is a box?

A box is something that does not exist. How can it? God encompasses all things.

It is like the old Zen koans where one is asked where the mountain stops and the sky begins or the sound of one hand clapping.

The point of them is surely, that the words 'mountain', 'sky' and 'hands' are inventions. They have no existence - we make the division between mountain and sky, it does not exist outside of us. If we were not there to draw this distinction - or hear the tree falling in the forest - then what?

These things are all your own invention. They do not exist.

You seem to agree but then you start talking about boxes again. But there are no boxes other than those you create. They would not exist if you didn't make them exist. Why don't you give up the idea of boxes - just as an experiment - and see what happens.

Become as little children. They don't have boxes. They just are.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #36 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yes but what is a box?

A box is something that does not exist. How can it? God encompasses all things.

It is like the old Zen koans where one is asked where the mountain stops and the sky begins or the sound of one hand clapping.

The point of them is surely, that the words 'mountain', 'sky' and 'hands' are inventions. They have no existence - we make the division between mountain and sky, it does not exist outside of us. If we were not there to draw this distinction - or hear the tree falling in the forest - then what?

These things are all your own invention. They do not exist.

You seem to agree but then you start talking about boxes again. But there are no boxes other than those you create. They would not exist if you didn't make them exist. Why don't you give up the idea of boxes - just as an experiment - and see what happens.

Become as little children. They don't have boxes. They just are.

the boxes are metaphors for our experiences, you aren't taking them literally

And in this metaphor, children would have boxes, very little ones, thats not a bad thing to have a little box, because the younger you are, by nature of your development into an adult, seeking experiences out of curiosity - the easier it is to break down the box.

It seems that as you get older and seek comfort in life, to be stable and happy, the more content you become in your box, so the harder it is to break it down. So indeed we should be like little children, seeking new experiences out of curiosity, but for obvious reasons it doesn't happen.

Perhaps the problem is we expect people to have a certain size of box proportional to their age, and in reality, there are still adults in childrens boxes.
post #37 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
YWhy don't you give up the idea of boxes - just as an experiment - and see what happens.

But isn't the problem that I didn't create the box around me? I would have thought I created me around the box, and then it becomes an order of magnitude more difficult to break out.
post #38 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
But isn't the problem that I didn't create the box around me? I would have thought I created me around the box, and then it becomes an order of magnitude more difficult to break out.

Well, describe a box you have as an example.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #39 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Well, describe a box you have as an example.....

well there is the Sun-God box in relation to the Christianity box in relation to the morality box in relation to the conscience box in realtion to your box. I cant quite make them merge, even though i can think of a few reasons how I could make that happen - but then my conscience box tells me that something stinks and i would be commiting a crime against decency to formulate such an untruth.
post #40 of 229
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
well there is the Sun-God box in relation to the Christianity box in relation to the morality box in relation to the conscience box in realtion to your box. I cant quite make them merge, even though i can think of a few reasons how I could make that happen - but then my conscience box tells me that something stinks and i would be commiting a crime against decency to formulate such an untruth.

Well your conscience telling you 'something stinks' is what I would call constructing a box.

It is YOUR conscience and YOU are defining 'stink'.

If you were in control of yourself - ie f you really had knowledge and KNEW yourself - you would be in control of these factors. as it is they control you nd you ascribe thm some reality they do not have.

When all the humans have died out - soon at the rate our 'leaders' are fucking up - there will be none of these boxes because they need a mind to exist in.

So what happens if you lose your mind? Become 'born again' ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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